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All book discussion in this thread is now allowed. |
On April 30 2019 22:46 Aocowns wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 22:42 sharkie wrote:On April 30 2019 22:41 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 30 2019 22:37 sharkie wrote:On April 30 2019 22:29 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 30 2019 21:49 sharkie wrote:On April 30 2019 21:43 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 30 2019 21:36 sharkie wrote:
Littlefinger's death had the consequence of Sansa being finally free of all reins and being able to act on her own and less lieing and intrigue in GoT.
Dorn's and Sandsnakes disappearance has as much value and effect as losing the Riverlands had back then. Why do people complain about Dorn but never about the Riverlands? Yeah because Riverlands was destroyed back then "when GoT was good".
Also what scenes? Sansa was free as soon as they took winterfell. The writers had to fake drama between sansa and arya to get any tension going. Littlefinger's death itself did absolutely nothing to any of the characters, it had no emotional impact and no narrative one. Dorne's cutting from the story (with all the deaths) has no narrative impact and no emotional one other than it not being in the story anymore. We talked about deaths having narrative/emotional impact, this isn't about a region. Though i would certainly agree that the show forgot about the riverland's for a long time until Jaime went there (which he does earlier in the books instead of doing all that dorne garbage). I linked iconic and well crafted scenes to showcase the micro lvl writing, the dialogue/monologue. I said that nothing out of the last seasons come close, said that it might be bias but if it is it should be easy for you to prove me wrong with recent examples. I am still waiting  (ofc anybody can prove me wrong there, it's all on youtube pretty sure) You think Littlefingers death will have any emotional impact and/or narrative impact when it will happen in the books? No, that guy is hated by everyone. Dont blame the show for that. Aaahh well for me the scenes are not more special than the ones happening now. So I cant link you any hehe I don't know if it will, and you don't know either. Emotional as in sadness? probably not. But there are other emotions one can create. Narratively? Who knows. It is certainly true that at the end of a storyline it doesn't necessarily have to affect other arcs, the story tries to come to an end afterall. A big problem with littlefinger's end was that the writers were not capable to actually make sansa and arya outsmart him believably, because littlefinger quite frankly didn't have any good plan there to begin with. That made the whole ending shallow. Same for the death of all the dornish, there was no impact at all other than some form of "oh well at least we don't have to waste any more time on them". That's not a great emotional impact because it just shows that the whole arc didn't work whatsoever. So you are saying that the current scenes have just as strong dialogue which develops our characters? Then link one, it should be easy to do so when there is no difference. Littlefingers death was never going to have an impact either in a narrative way or emotionally. Because he is a nobody. That's why him being a mastermind was good plot. But for that very same reason his death will be exactly what every character in the story thinks of him: shallow. No, I am saying they have as weak as a dialogue as they did in the previous seasons. So, just google "Game of thrones scene S0XEXX" You just state things without reasoning. Littlefinger is quite clearly not a nobody, you contradict yourself in your own comment. So he is a mastermind and a nobody, i see. Makes sense. This is just a copout and everyone knows it. I didn't expect anything else, it's simply not realistically defendable so you don't even try. Who in Westeros believes Littlefinger is a mastermind? People like varys and tyrion usually mentioned him being one of the most dangerous and unpredictable people in the realm because of his intellect and lack of restraint in getting what he wanted. Can't pinpoint anyone saying that hes specifically a "mastermind" but thats necessary either to make the point
Ok, so 2 people within tens of thousands. Pretty much confirms me saying he was a nobody
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On April 30 2019 22:41 sharkie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 22:35 solidbebe wrote:On April 30 2019 22:30 sharkie wrote:On April 30 2019 22:12 solidbebe wrote:On April 30 2019 22:05 Plansix wrote:On April 30 2019 22:02 solidbebe wrote:On April 30 2019 22:01 Plansix wrote:On April 30 2019 21:57 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:On April 30 2019 21:44 solidbebe wrote:
Im talking about consequences for her. None of the things she did ever came back to bite her. She hasnt struggled with anything, mentally or emotionally. Shes just a perfect little teenager girl who is a psychopath when shes in badass killing mode and happy normal member of the stark family when she isnt. Saw her father executed, being hunted down, then saw her uncle(?) of the night's watch killed as well, tried and failed to get her brother. On the run for 5 years etc. It is like he deleted every other season of this show from his memory. I wish I could delete the last 4. You can just stop watching. I did it with Walking Dead and it was dope. On April 30 2019 22:04 sharkie wrote:On April 30 2019 22:01 solidbebe wrote:On April 30 2019 21:57 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:On April 30 2019 21:44 solidbebe wrote:
Im talking about consequences for her. None of the things she did ever came back to bite her. She hasnt struggled with anything, mentally or emotionally. Shes just a perfect little teenager girl who is a psychopath when shes in badass killing mode and happy normal member of the stark family when she isnt. Saw her father executed, being hunted down, then saw her uncle(?) of the night's watch killed as well, tried and failed to get her brother. On the run for 5 years etc. I was talking about since she joined the faceless men. She used to be a character back when the show was good, now she's a badass. So Arya facing the worst hardships after hardships without any positive result or any rewards = good writing Arya becoming skilled without any drawbacks = bad writing Seriously, do you not see that its the exact same thing?! It was unbalanced before and it is unbalanced now And characters like Jon do the exact same thing, but didn’t need to go blind to do it. Secretly I enjoy hate-watching the show and then complaining about it on the internet, but don't tell that to anyone. I also somehow convinced myself after every season that it might get better. On April 30 2019 22:04 sharkie wrote:On April 30 2019 22:01 solidbebe wrote:On April 30 2019 21:57 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:On April 30 2019 21:44 solidbebe wrote:
Im talking about consequences for her. None of the things she did ever came back to bite her. She hasnt struggled with anything, mentally or emotionally. Shes just a perfect little teenager girl who is a psychopath when shes in badass killing mode and happy normal member of the stark family when she isnt. Saw her father executed, being hunted down, then saw her uncle(?) of the night's watch killed as well, tried and failed to get her brother. On the run for 5 years etc. I was talking about since she joined the faceless men. She used to be a character back when the show was good, now she's a badass. So Arya facing the worst hardships after hardships without any positive result or any rewards = good writing Arya becoming skilled without any drawbacks = bad writing Seriously, do you not see that its the exact same thing?! It was unbalanced before and it is unbalanced now Its not becoming skilled without any drawbacks that is the problem. Its that everything works out for her and she always gets to look cool about it. Never a moment of self-doubt, never a moment of struggling with any emotions. Taking revenge on the freys, killing the NK etc... She's killed so many people, witnessed so much destruction, and she's never had to contemplate or process it for even a moment. Real people aren't like that. Real people also dont survive what she had to go through. But back then it was good writing, right? Because only bad stuff was happening to her? Real people dont survive being stabbed in the abdomen several times and then jumping into a sewer no, which is what happened in season 6. Im genuinely curious what you mean by 'people dont survive what she had to go through' when we're talking about season 1-4. Real people would have died in Harrenhal
And before she would have died she is pulled out by Tywin, so what do you mean?
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On April 30 2019 22:42 sharkie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 22:41 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 30 2019 22:37 sharkie wrote:On April 30 2019 22:29 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 30 2019 21:49 sharkie wrote:On April 30 2019 21:43 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 30 2019 21:36 sharkie wrote:
Littlefinger's death had the consequence of Sansa being finally free of all reins and being able to act on her own and less lieing and intrigue in GoT.
Dorn's and Sandsnakes disappearance has as much value and effect as losing the Riverlands had back then. Why do people complain about Dorn but never about the Riverlands? Yeah because Riverlands was destroyed back then "when GoT was good".
Also what scenes? Sansa was free as soon as they took winterfell. The writers had to fake drama between sansa and arya to get any tension going. Littlefinger's death itself did absolutely nothing to any of the characters, it had no emotional impact and no narrative one. Dorne's cutting from the story (with all the deaths) has no narrative impact and no emotional one other than it not being in the story anymore. We talked about deaths having narrative/emotional impact, this isn't about a region. Though i would certainly agree that the show forgot about the riverland's for a long time until Jaime went there (which he does earlier in the books instead of doing all that dorne garbage). I linked iconic and well crafted scenes to showcase the micro lvl writing, the dialogue/monologue. I said that nothing out of the last seasons come close, said that it might be bias but if it is it should be easy for you to prove me wrong with recent examples. I am still waiting (ofc anybody can prove me wrong there, it's all on youtube pretty sure) You think Littlefingers death will have any emotional impact and/or narrative impact when it will happen in the books? No, that guy is hated by everyone. Dont blame the show for that. Aaahh well for me the scenes are not more special than the ones happening now. So I cant link you any hehe I don't know if it will, and you don't know either. Emotional as in sadness? probably not. But there are other emotions one can create. Narratively? Who knows. It is certainly true that at the end of a storyline it doesn't necessarily have to affect other arcs, the story tries to come to an end afterall. A big problem with littlefinger's end was that the writers were not capable to actually make sansa and arya outsmart him believably, because littlefinger quite frankly didn't have any good plan there to begin with. That made the whole ending shallow. Same for the death of all the dornish, there was no impact at all other than some form of "oh well at least we don't have to waste any more time on them". That's not a great emotional impact because it just shows that the whole arc didn't work whatsoever. So you are saying that the current scenes have just as strong dialogue which develops our characters? Then link one, it should be easy to do so when there is no difference. Littlefingers death was never going to have an impact either in a narrative way or emotionally. Because he is a nobody. That's why him being a mastermind was good plot. But for that very same reason his death will be exactly what every character in the story thinks of him: shallow. No, I am saying they have as weak as a dialogue as they did in the previous seasons. So, just google "Game of thrones scene S0XEXX" You just state things without reasoning. Littlefinger is quite clearly not a nobody, you contradict yourself in your own comment. So he is a mastermind and a nobody, i see. Makes sense. This is just a copout and everyone knows it. I didn't expect anything else, it's simply not realistically defendable so you don't even try. Who in Westeros believes Littlefinger is a mastermind?
That is completely irrelevant for the emotional payoff, the emotional payoff comes from the audience.
The narrative payoff can come through other means, he is slowly getting power and that power dynamic can change drastically depending on what happens exactly.
I am still not sure why you think "balance" is crucial btw, ofc you need to give the audience some form of hope and little success to not make them too depressed, but a story arc can be a downward spiral and still be totally satisfying, all you need is struggle and resulting character change. The problem with arya's arc is that there is no character change, she wanted to be a badass at the start of got and now she is one, while a proper arc would have been showcasing how this "badass" is a negative thing, making her a monster the audience cannot fully empathize with anymore. (this isn't necessarily the only option ofc, but there has to be change after she got her desire)
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On April 30 2019 22:45 Plansix wrote:
Littlefinger was a dude who thought he had a plan to gain power in the system, but only managed to create chaos and never obtained much. His main talent was avoiding being murdered better than most people who are into betrayal.
He went from tiny noble house with no power and no lands, to having the Veil in his pocket, getting harrenhal(but then losing it admittedly), and building one of the most profitable and independent businesses in westeros. he was quietly respected and feared, or at least noted, by anyone with meta knowledge of the game in westeros
Avoiding being murdered was one of many talents that they had to disregard when they needed to allocate screen time for the good guys and didnt know what to do with a character with that setup anymore
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On April 30 2019 22:47 sharkie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 22:46 Aocowns wrote:On April 30 2019 22:42 sharkie wrote:On April 30 2019 22:41 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 30 2019 22:37 sharkie wrote:On April 30 2019 22:29 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 30 2019 21:49 sharkie wrote:On April 30 2019 21:43 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 30 2019 21:36 sharkie wrote:
Littlefinger's death had the consequence of Sansa being finally free of all reins and being able to act on her own and less lieing and intrigue in GoT.
Dorn's and Sandsnakes disappearance has as much value and effect as losing the Riverlands had back then. Why do people complain about Dorn but never about the Riverlands? Yeah because Riverlands was destroyed back then "when GoT was good".
Also what scenes? Sansa was free as soon as they took winterfell. The writers had to fake drama between sansa and arya to get any tension going. Littlefinger's death itself did absolutely nothing to any of the characters, it had no emotional impact and no narrative one. Dorne's cutting from the story (with all the deaths) has no narrative impact and no emotional one other than it not being in the story anymore. We talked about deaths having narrative/emotional impact, this isn't about a region. Though i would certainly agree that the show forgot about the riverland's for a long time until Jaime went there (which he does earlier in the books instead of doing all that dorne garbage). I linked iconic and well crafted scenes to showcase the micro lvl writing, the dialogue/monologue. I said that nothing out of the last seasons come close, said that it might be bias but if it is it should be easy for you to prove me wrong with recent examples. I am still waiting (ofc anybody can prove me wrong there, it's all on youtube pretty sure) You think Littlefingers death will have any emotional impact and/or narrative impact when it will happen in the books? No, that guy is hated by everyone. Dont blame the show for that. Aaahh well for me the scenes are not more special than the ones happening now. So I cant link you any hehe I don't know if it will, and you don't know either. Emotional as in sadness? probably not. But there are other emotions one can create. Narratively? Who knows. It is certainly true that at the end of a storyline it doesn't necessarily have to affect other arcs, the story tries to come to an end afterall. A big problem with littlefinger's end was that the writers were not capable to actually make sansa and arya outsmart him believably, because littlefinger quite frankly didn't have any good plan there to begin with. That made the whole ending shallow. Same for the death of all the dornish, there was no impact at all other than some form of "oh well at least we don't have to waste any more time on them". That's not a great emotional impact because it just shows that the whole arc didn't work whatsoever. So you are saying that the current scenes have just as strong dialogue which develops our characters? Then link one, it should be easy to do so when there is no difference. Littlefingers death was never going to have an impact either in a narrative way or emotionally. Because he is a nobody. That's why him being a mastermind was good plot. But for that very same reason his death will be exactly what every character in the story thinks of him: shallow. No, I am saying they have as weak as a dialogue as they did in the previous seasons. So, just google "Game of thrones scene S0XEXX" You just state things without reasoning. Littlefinger is quite clearly not a nobody, you contradict yourself in your own comment. So he is a mastermind and a nobody, i see. Makes sense. This is just a copout and everyone knows it. I didn't expect anything else, it's simply not realistically defendable so you don't even try. Who in Westeros believes Littlefinger is a mastermind? People like varys and tyrion usually mentioned him being one of the most dangerous and unpredictable people in the realm because of his intellect and lack of restraint in getting what he wanted. Can't pinpoint anyone saying that hes specifically a "mastermind" but thats necessary either to make the point Ok, so 2 people within tens of thousands. Pretty much confirms me saying he was a nobody
I'm not sure if you're trying to argue that he was a nobody because random peasants didnt know his name and value in the universe, but if you are, thats fucking dumb
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On April 30 2019 22:54 Aocowns wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 22:47 sharkie wrote:On April 30 2019 22:46 Aocowns wrote:On April 30 2019 22:42 sharkie wrote:On April 30 2019 22:41 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 30 2019 22:37 sharkie wrote:On April 30 2019 22:29 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 30 2019 21:49 sharkie wrote:On April 30 2019 21:43 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 30 2019 21:36 sharkie wrote:
Littlefinger's death had the consequence of Sansa being finally free of all reins and being able to act on her own and less lieing and intrigue in GoT.
Dorn's and Sandsnakes disappearance has as much value and effect as losing the Riverlands had back then. Why do people complain about Dorn but never about the Riverlands? Yeah because Riverlands was destroyed back then "when GoT was good".
Also what scenes? Sansa was free as soon as they took winterfell. The writers had to fake drama between sansa and arya to get any tension going. Littlefinger's death itself did absolutely nothing to any of the characters, it had no emotional impact and no narrative one. Dorne's cutting from the story (with all the deaths) has no narrative impact and no emotional one other than it not being in the story anymore. We talked about deaths having narrative/emotional impact, this isn't about a region. Though i would certainly agree that the show forgot about the riverland's for a long time until Jaime went there (which he does earlier in the books instead of doing all that dorne garbage). I linked iconic and well crafted scenes to showcase the micro lvl writing, the dialogue/monologue. I said that nothing out of the last seasons come close, said that it might be bias but if it is it should be easy for you to prove me wrong with recent examples. I am still waiting (ofc anybody can prove me wrong there, it's all on youtube pretty sure) You think Littlefingers death will have any emotional impact and/or narrative impact when it will happen in the books? No, that guy is hated by everyone. Dont blame the show for that. Aaahh well for me the scenes are not more special than the ones happening now. So I cant link you any hehe I don't know if it will, and you don't know either. Emotional as in sadness? probably not. But there are other emotions one can create. Narratively? Who knows. It is certainly true that at the end of a storyline it doesn't necessarily have to affect other arcs, the story tries to come to an end afterall. A big problem with littlefinger's end was that the writers were not capable to actually make sansa and arya outsmart him believably, because littlefinger quite frankly didn't have any good plan there to begin with. That made the whole ending shallow. Same for the death of all the dornish, there was no impact at all other than some form of "oh well at least we don't have to waste any more time on them". That's not a great emotional impact because it just shows that the whole arc didn't work whatsoever. So you are saying that the current scenes have just as strong dialogue which develops our characters? Then link one, it should be easy to do so when there is no difference. Littlefingers death was never going to have an impact either in a narrative way or emotionally. Because he is a nobody. That's why him being a mastermind was good plot. But for that very same reason his death will be exactly what every character in the story thinks of him: shallow. No, I am saying they have as weak as a dialogue as they did in the previous seasons. So, just google "Game of thrones scene S0XEXX" You just state things without reasoning. Littlefinger is quite clearly not a nobody, you contradict yourself in your own comment. So he is a mastermind and a nobody, i see. Makes sense. This is just a copout and everyone knows it. I didn't expect anything else, it's simply not realistically defendable so you don't even try. Who in Westeros believes Littlefinger is a mastermind? People like varys and tyrion usually mentioned him being one of the most dangerous and unpredictable people in the realm because of his intellect and lack of restraint in getting what he wanted. Can't pinpoint anyone saying that hes specifically a "mastermind" but thats necessary either to make the point Ok, so 2 people within tens of thousands. Pretty much confirms me saying he was a nobody I'm not sure if you're trying to argue that he was a nobody because random peasants didnt know his name and value in the universe, but if you are, thats fucking dumb
I was accused of saying Littlefinger being a nobody and mastermind is a contradiction which it was not
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On April 30 2019 22:49 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 22:42 sharkie wrote:On April 30 2019 22:41 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 30 2019 22:37 sharkie wrote:On April 30 2019 22:29 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 30 2019 21:49 sharkie wrote:On April 30 2019 21:43 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 30 2019 21:36 sharkie wrote:
Littlefinger's death had the consequence of Sansa being finally free of all reins and being able to act on her own and less lieing and intrigue in GoT.
Dorn's and Sandsnakes disappearance has as much value and effect as losing the Riverlands had back then. Why do people complain about Dorn but never about the Riverlands? Yeah because Riverlands was destroyed back then "when GoT was good".
Also what scenes? Sansa was free as soon as they took winterfell. The writers had to fake drama between sansa and arya to get any tension going. Littlefinger's death itself did absolutely nothing to any of the characters, it had no emotional impact and no narrative one. Dorne's cutting from the story (with all the deaths) has no narrative impact and no emotional one other than it not being in the story anymore. We talked about deaths having narrative/emotional impact, this isn't about a region. Though i would certainly agree that the show forgot about the riverland's for a long time until Jaime went there (which he does earlier in the books instead of doing all that dorne garbage). I linked iconic and well crafted scenes to showcase the micro lvl writing, the dialogue/monologue. I said that nothing out of the last seasons come close, said that it might be bias but if it is it should be easy for you to prove me wrong with recent examples. I am still waiting (ofc anybody can prove me wrong there, it's all on youtube pretty sure) You think Littlefingers death will have any emotional impact and/or narrative impact when it will happen in the books? No, that guy is hated by everyone. Dont blame the show for that. Aaahh well for me the scenes are not more special than the ones happening now. So I cant link you any hehe I don't know if it will, and you don't know either. Emotional as in sadness? probably not. But there are other emotions one can create. Narratively? Who knows. It is certainly true that at the end of a storyline it doesn't necessarily have to affect other arcs, the story tries to come to an end afterall. A big problem with littlefinger's end was that the writers were not capable to actually make sansa and arya outsmart him believably, because littlefinger quite frankly didn't have any good plan there to begin with. That made the whole ending shallow. Same for the death of all the dornish, there was no impact at all other than some form of "oh well at least we don't have to waste any more time on them". That's not a great emotional impact because it just shows that the whole arc didn't work whatsoever. So you are saying that the current scenes have just as strong dialogue which develops our characters? Then link one, it should be easy to do so when there is no difference. Littlefingers death was never going to have an impact either in a narrative way or emotionally. Because he is a nobody. That's why him being a mastermind was good plot. But for that very same reason his death will be exactly what every character in the story thinks of him: shallow. No, I am saying they have as weak as a dialogue as they did in the previous seasons. So, just google "Game of thrones scene S0XEXX" You just state things without reasoning. Littlefinger is quite clearly not a nobody, you contradict yourself in your own comment. So he is a mastermind and a nobody, i see. Makes sense. This is just a copout and everyone knows it. I didn't expect anything else, it's simply not realistically defendable so you don't even try. Who in Westeros believes Littlefinger is a mastermind? That is completely irrelevant for the emotional payoff, the emotional payoff comes from the audience. The narrative payoff can come through other means, he is slowly getting power and that power dynamic can change drastically depending on what happens exactly. I am still not sure why you think "balance" is crucial btw, ofc you need to give the audience some form of hope and little success to not make them too depressed, but a story arc can be a downward spiral and still be totally satisfying, all you need is struggle and resulting character change. The problem with arya's arc is that there is no character change, she wanted to be a badass at the start of got and now she is one, while a proper arc would have been showcasing how this "badass" is a negative thing, making her a monster the audience cannot fully empathize with anymore. (this isn't necessarily the only option ofc, but there has to be change after she got her desire)
I honestly thought the show (and books more importantly) were developing Arya in that direction before. Trading humanity, feelings and her childhood for badassery, that sort of thing. I'm pretty sure the show managed to convey that before (I remember Arya used to look pretty miserable, not all confident and full of swagger like now). I agree that now she seems to have it all, she acts like a badass and has fun doing it :D.
In general every flaw that you guys find in the show can be pinned on the books remaining unfinished (and quite frankly nobody is sure that the series is every going to be completed, and I say this as someone who read them long before the show was ever a thing. I've experienced unfinished long-running fantasy book series before).
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On April 30 2019 22:50 Aocowns wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 22:45 Plansix wrote:
Littlefinger was a dude who thought he had a plan to gain power in the system, but only managed to create chaos and never obtained much. His main talent was avoiding being murdered better than most people who are into betrayal. He went from tiny noble house with no power and no lands, to having the Veil in his pocket, getting harrenhal(but then losing it admittedly), and building one of the most profitable and independent businesses in westeros. he was quietly respected and feared, or at least noted, by anyone with meta knowledge of the game in westeros Avoiding being murdered was one of many talents that they had to disregard when they needed to allocate screen time for the good guys and didnt know what to do with a character with that setup anymore
So he was a wealthy merchant who manipulated a young lord to do what he wants from time to time? And hangs out with a young Lady to justify his existence at anyone's house after fleeing Kings Landing. And to get that he only needed to spark a war that could cause his power base to evaporate over night. There is a moment in the series when he tells Tywin Lannister about his “Chaos is a ladder” theory and Tywin is just unimpressed. Because Tywin was a man who had created real power. Littlefinger desperately trying to figure out how to get some of it, but all he knew how to do was destroy things and try to cling on to whoever was left standing.
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On April 30 2019 22:47 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 22:13 farvacola wrote:
I liked the episode, didn’t love it. The first half was extremely good, the second half much less so. The undead basically holding everyone instead of stabbing while the final kill developed was pretty meh. I was absolutely hoping for the final scene to be the NK swearing his sword to Bran and then everybody else dying. At least that would have been a realistic ending to the fight between the living and the dead with the way that battle was going. Instead Sam got rescued 10 times, and everybody else of consequence escaped death. People who should obviously have died this episode: - Grey Worm (heroically running with a torch and lighting the trench, rather than escorting Melissandre. Although I did like Melissandre's scene). - Varys (he gets barely any showtime anyway, so just kill him off. Tyrion fulfills his role now anyway) - Thormund Giantsbane - Jorah Mormont (yes, he did die, but he somehow survived the dothraki kamikaze... dafuq) - Brienne (fulfills her dream of becoming a knight and dies. I mean... they made a huge point last episode of completing her arc) - Sam (duh. maybe dolorous ed could then have lived) - Bran (because he is apparenlty a total waste of space and it's about time another Stark died) - Ghost (because everybody on the show has forgotten about him anyway) And then if they had had Arya actually reach the Godswood by sneaking around the castle like an escaped scene from the Walking Dead, then her killing the NK might actually make sense? Even so, I have absolutely no clue why the White Walkers all exploded when their king died. The zombies falling apart makes sense in the lore. He's the necromancer holding them up in the first place. But what makes all the other WW all explode?
Yeah there were plenty of missed opportunities in terms of the show giving the battle of Winterfell the gravity it deserves.
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On April 30 2019 22:56 sharkie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 22:54 Aocowns wrote:On April 30 2019 22:47 sharkie wrote:On April 30 2019 22:46 Aocowns wrote:On April 30 2019 22:42 sharkie wrote:On April 30 2019 22:41 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 30 2019 22:37 sharkie wrote:On April 30 2019 22:29 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 30 2019 21:49 sharkie wrote:On April 30 2019 21:43 The_Red_Viper wrote:[quote] Sansa was free as soon as they took winterfell. The writers had to fake drama between sansa and arya to get any tension going. Littlefinger's death itself did absolutely nothing to any of the characters, it had no emotional impact and no narrative one. Dorne's cutting from the story (with all the deaths) has no narrative impact and no emotional one other than it not being in the story anymore. We talked about deaths having narrative/emotional impact, this isn't about a region. Though i would certainly agree that the show forgot about the riverland's for a long time until Jaime went there (which he does earlier in the books instead of doing all that dorne garbage). I linked iconic and well crafted scenes to showcase the micro lvl writing, the dialogue/monologue. I said that nothing out of the last seasons come close, said that it might be bias but if it is it should be easy for you to prove me wrong with recent examples. I am still waiting (ofc anybody can prove me wrong there, it's all on youtube pretty sure) You think Littlefingers death will have any emotional impact and/or narrative impact when it will happen in the books? No, that guy is hated by everyone. Dont blame the show for that. Aaahh well for me the scenes are not more special than the ones happening now. So I cant link you any hehe I don't know if it will, and you don't know either. Emotional as in sadness? probably not. But there are other emotions one can create. Narratively? Who knows. It is certainly true that at the end of a storyline it doesn't necessarily have to affect other arcs, the story tries to come to an end afterall. A big problem with littlefinger's end was that the writers were not capable to actually make sansa and arya outsmart him believably, because littlefinger quite frankly didn't have any good plan there to begin with. That made the whole ending shallow. Same for the death of all the dornish, there was no impact at all other than some form of "oh well at least we don't have to waste any more time on them". That's not a great emotional impact because it just shows that the whole arc didn't work whatsoever. So you are saying that the current scenes have just as strong dialogue which develops our characters? Then link one, it should be easy to do so when there is no difference. Littlefingers death was never going to have an impact either in a narrative way or emotionally. Because he is a nobody. That's why him being a mastermind was good plot. But for that very same reason his death will be exactly what every character in the story thinks of him: shallow. No, I am saying they have as weak as a dialogue as they did in the previous seasons. So, just google "Game of thrones scene S0XEXX" You just state things without reasoning. Littlefinger is quite clearly not a nobody, you contradict yourself in your own comment. So he is a mastermind and a nobody, i see. Makes sense. This is just a copout and everyone knows it. I didn't expect anything else, it's simply not realistically defendable so you don't even try. Who in Westeros believes Littlefinger is a mastermind? People like varys and tyrion usually mentioned him being one of the most dangerous and unpredictable people in the realm because of his intellect and lack of restraint in getting what he wanted. Can't pinpoint anyone saying that hes specifically a "mastermind" but thats necessary either to make the point Ok, so 2 people within tens of thousands. Pretty much confirms me saying he was a nobody I'm not sure if you're trying to argue that he was a nobody because random peasants didnt know his name and value in the universe, but if you are, thats fucking dumb I was accused of saying Littlefinger being a nobody and mastermind is a contradiction which it was not
Oh im sorry, looks like you and the other guy did some weird switcheroo of opinions that i didnt quite catch
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The ending feels like a bad D& session where the rogue wants to do something truelly stupid and the DM lets him to punish him when it obviously fails only to roll critical success after critical success and goes "well I guess he's dead then" as he chucks a dozen pages of future notes into a bin.
The entire episode was just utter garbage.
The Dothraki charge.
Siege engines INFRONT of the infantry line
The whole episode shot so dark you can't even see 90% of what is going on.
Jorah was with the Dothraki charge, but he doesn't die there somehow?
I'm sure the dragon fight was utterly beautiful but I couldn't see 2 black dragon shaped blobs fighting in a dark blue background.
Playing hide and seek in an empty castle during a massive siege was fun...
Jorah, after teleporting out of the Dorthraki charge, hears Dany's dragon and teleports outside the castle walls intime to save her, while a couple of 100k zombies are between them. This man is the greatest wizard in the realm.
Wtf is Bran even doing? I was expecting him to were something or be getting help somewhere?
I'm not even mad, it was to depressing to get mad about.
Just... sad.
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On April 30 2019 22:56 sharkie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 22:54 Aocowns wrote:On April 30 2019 22:47 sharkie wrote:On April 30 2019 22:46 Aocowns wrote:On April 30 2019 22:42 sharkie wrote:On April 30 2019 22:41 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 30 2019 22:37 sharkie wrote:On April 30 2019 22:29 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 30 2019 21:49 sharkie wrote:On April 30 2019 21:43 The_Red_Viper wrote:[quote] Sansa was free as soon as they took winterfell. The writers had to fake drama between sansa and arya to get any tension going. Littlefinger's death itself did absolutely nothing to any of the characters, it had no emotional impact and no narrative one. Dorne's cutting from the story (with all the deaths) has no narrative impact and no emotional one other than it not being in the story anymore. We talked about deaths having narrative/emotional impact, this isn't about a region. Though i would certainly agree that the show forgot about the riverland's for a long time until Jaime went there (which he does earlier in the books instead of doing all that dorne garbage). I linked iconic and well crafted scenes to showcase the micro lvl writing, the dialogue/monologue. I said that nothing out of the last seasons come close, said that it might be bias but if it is it should be easy for you to prove me wrong with recent examples. I am still waiting (ofc anybody can prove me wrong there, it's all on youtube pretty sure) You think Littlefingers death will have any emotional impact and/or narrative impact when it will happen in the books? No, that guy is hated by everyone. Dont blame the show for that. Aaahh well for me the scenes are not more special than the ones happening now. So I cant link you any hehe I don't know if it will, and you don't know either. Emotional as in sadness? probably not. But there are other emotions one can create. Narratively? Who knows. It is certainly true that at the end of a storyline it doesn't necessarily have to affect other arcs, the story tries to come to an end afterall. A big problem with littlefinger's end was that the writers were not capable to actually make sansa and arya outsmart him believably, because littlefinger quite frankly didn't have any good plan there to begin with. That made the whole ending shallow. Same for the death of all the dornish, there was no impact at all other than some form of "oh well at least we don't have to waste any more time on them". That's not a great emotional impact because it just shows that the whole arc didn't work whatsoever. So you are saying that the current scenes have just as strong dialogue which develops our characters? Then link one, it should be easy to do so when there is no difference. Littlefingers death was never going to have an impact either in a narrative way or emotionally. Because he is a nobody. That's why him being a mastermind was good plot. But for that very same reason his death will be exactly what every character in the story thinks of him: shallow. No, I am saying they have as weak as a dialogue as they did in the previous seasons. So, just google "Game of thrones scene S0XEXX" You just state things without reasoning. Littlefinger is quite clearly not a nobody, you contradict yourself in your own comment. So he is a mastermind and a nobody, i see. Makes sense. This is just a copout and everyone knows it. I didn't expect anything else, it's simply not realistically defendable so you don't even try. Who in Westeros believes Littlefinger is a mastermind? People like varys and tyrion usually mentioned him being one of the most dangerous and unpredictable people in the realm because of his intellect and lack of restraint in getting what he wanted. Can't pinpoint anyone saying that hes specifically a "mastermind" but thats necessary either to make the point Ok, so 2 people within tens of thousands. Pretty much confirms me saying he was a nobody I'm not sure if you're trying to argue that he was a nobody because random peasants didnt know his name and value in the universe, but if you are, thats fucking dumb I was accused of saying Littlefinger being a nobody and mastermind is a contradiction which it was not
It is a direct contradiction on the narrative level, the level that actually matters for the impact on the audience. The emotional one.
Even in universe littlefinger slowly got more and more power, he is far away from being a nobody there as well, his mastermind qualities actually resulted in something. You are honestly mostly talking out of your ass at this point.
On April 30 2019 22:56 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 22:49 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 30 2019 22:42 sharkie wrote:On April 30 2019 22:41 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 30 2019 22:37 sharkie wrote:On April 30 2019 22:29 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 30 2019 21:49 sharkie wrote:On April 30 2019 21:43 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 30 2019 21:36 sharkie wrote:
Littlefinger's death had the consequence of Sansa being finally free of all reins and being able to act on her own and less lieing and intrigue in GoT.
Dorn's and Sandsnakes disappearance has as much value and effect as losing the Riverlands had back then. Why do people complain about Dorn but never about the Riverlands? Yeah because Riverlands was destroyed back then "when GoT was good".
Also what scenes? Sansa was free as soon as they took winterfell. The writers had to fake drama between sansa and arya to get any tension going. Littlefinger's death itself did absolutely nothing to any of the characters, it had no emotional impact and no narrative one. Dorne's cutting from the story (with all the deaths) has no narrative impact and no emotional one other than it not being in the story anymore. We talked about deaths having narrative/emotional impact, this isn't about a region. Though i would certainly agree that the show forgot about the riverland's for a long time until Jaime went there (which he does earlier in the books instead of doing all that dorne garbage). I linked iconic and well crafted scenes to showcase the micro lvl writing, the dialogue/monologue. I said that nothing out of the last seasons come close, said that it might be bias but if it is it should be easy for you to prove me wrong with recent examples. I am still waiting (ofc anybody can prove me wrong there, it's all on youtube pretty sure) You think Littlefingers death will have any emotional impact and/or narrative impact when it will happen in the books? No, that guy is hated by everyone. Dont blame the show for that. Aaahh well for me the scenes are not more special than the ones happening now. So I cant link you any hehe I don't know if it will, and you don't know either. Emotional as in sadness? probably not. But there are other emotions one can create. Narratively? Who knows. It is certainly true that at the end of a storyline it doesn't necessarily have to affect other arcs, the story tries to come to an end afterall. A big problem with littlefinger's end was that the writers were not capable to actually make sansa and arya outsmart him believably, because littlefinger quite frankly didn't have any good plan there to begin with. That made the whole ending shallow. Same for the death of all the dornish, there was no impact at all other than some form of "oh well at least we don't have to waste any more time on them". That's not a great emotional impact because it just shows that the whole arc didn't work whatsoever. So you are saying that the current scenes have just as strong dialogue which develops our characters? Then link one, it should be easy to do so when there is no difference. Littlefingers death was never going to have an impact either in a narrative way or emotionally. Because he is a nobody. That's why him being a mastermind was good plot. But for that very same reason his death will be exactly what every character in the story thinks of him: shallow. No, I am saying they have as weak as a dialogue as they did in the previous seasons. So, just google "Game of thrones scene S0XEXX" You just state things without reasoning. Littlefinger is quite clearly not a nobody, you contradict yourself in your own comment. So he is a mastermind and a nobody, i see. Makes sense. This is just a copout and everyone knows it. I didn't expect anything else, it's simply not realistically defendable so you don't even try. Who in Westeros believes Littlefinger is a mastermind? That is completely irrelevant for the emotional payoff, the emotional payoff comes from the audience. The narrative payoff can come through other means, he is slowly getting power and that power dynamic can change drastically depending on what happens exactly. I am still not sure why you think "balance" is crucial btw, ofc you need to give the audience some form of hope and little success to not make them too depressed, but a story arc can be a downward spiral and still be totally satisfying, all you need is struggle and resulting character change. The problem with arya's arc is that there is no character change, she wanted to be a badass at the start of got and now she is one, while a proper arc would have been showcasing how this "badass" is a negative thing, making her a monster the audience cannot fully empathize with anymore. (this isn't necessarily the only option ofc, but there has to be change after she got her desire) I honestly thought the show (and books more importantly) were developing Arya in that direction before. Trading humanity, feelings and her childhood for badassery, that sort of thing. I'm pretty sure the show managed to convey that before (I remember Arya used to look pretty miserable, not all confident and full of swagger like now). I agree that now she seems to have it all, she acts like a badass and has fun doing it :D. In general every flaw that you guys find in the show can be pinned on the books remaining unfinished (and quite frankly nobody is sure that the series is every going to be completed, and I say this as someone who read them long before the show was ever a thing. I've experienced unfinished long-running fantasy book series before).
Well yeah them not being able to adapt superior material is the reason, i completely agree. But they are writers themselves, they should know how a satisfying, great arc is built on the plot level and character level / thematic one. At least if they were skilled, they don't seem to be that skilled.
They already dropped so much subplots and characters, exactly the thing which makes it hard for martin to finish all of his stuff organically. I get the defense mechanism of saying "well grrm didn't give them anything anymore", but for the love of god, these guys should be on a good writing level themselves, it didn't have to be absolutely great, just good.
If they truly understood what makes things satisfying and meaningful they would have been able to achieve it.
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On April 30 2019 22:59 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 22:50 Aocowns wrote:On April 30 2019 22:45 Plansix wrote:
Littlefinger was a dude who thought he had a plan to gain power in the system, but only managed to create chaos and never obtained much. His main talent was avoiding being murdered better than most people who are into betrayal. He went from tiny noble house with no power and no lands, to having the Veil in his pocket, getting harrenhal(but then losing it admittedly), and building one of the most profitable and independent businesses in westeros. he was quietly respected and feared, or at least noted, by anyone with meta knowledge of the game in westeros Avoiding being murdered was one of many talents that they had to disregard when they needed to allocate screen time for the good guys and didnt know what to do with a character with that setup anymore So he was a wealthy merchant who manipulated a young lord to do what he wants from time to time? And hangs out with a young Lady to justify his existence at anyone's house after fleeing Kings Landing. And to get that he only needed to spark a war that could cause his power base to evaporate over night. There is a moment in the series when he tells Tywin Lannister about his “Chaos is a ladder” theory and Tywin is just unimpressed. Because Tywin was a man who had created real power. Littlefinger desperately trying to figure out how to get some of it, but all he knew how to do was destroy things and try to cling on to whoever was left standing.
Yeah there's no arguing littlefinger was somehow more powerful than tywin, or that he was more powerful than many of the real lords. Tywin and littlefinger were very different characters with very different ideals and goals, and very different abilities to further their own ends. Tywin had name, money, principles, and a vast intellect. Littlefinger became someone from nothing through calculated gambles and cunning
I'm not sure if we're talking past each other here or what you were wanting to achieve with what you said originally, but im just pointing out that reducing littlefinger to "merchant who manipulated a child and hovered to remain relevant, and who had no real power" is silly
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I have doubts Littlefinger was ever going to gain more power beyond the small amount he obtained by manipulating children with gifts and marrying above his station.
On April 30 2019 23:12 Aocowns wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 22:59 Plansix wrote:On April 30 2019 22:50 Aocowns wrote:On April 30 2019 22:45 Plansix wrote:
Littlefinger was a dude who thought he had a plan to gain power in the system, but only managed to create chaos and never obtained much. His main talent was avoiding being murdered better than most people who are into betrayal. He went from tiny noble house with no power and no lands, to having the Veil in his pocket, getting harrenhal(but then losing it admittedly), and building one of the most profitable and independent businesses in westeros. he was quietly respected and feared, or at least noted, by anyone with meta knowledge of the game in westeros Avoiding being murdered was one of many talents that they had to disregard when they needed to allocate screen time for the good guys and didnt know what to do with a character with that setup anymore So he was a wealthy merchant who manipulated a young lord to do what he wants from time to time? And hangs out with a young Lady to justify his existence at anyone's house after fleeing Kings Landing. And to get that he only needed to spark a war that could cause his power base to evaporate over night. There is a moment in the series when he tells Tywin Lannister about his “Chaos is a ladder” theory and Tywin is just unimpressed. Because Tywin was a man who had created real power. Littlefinger desperately trying to figure out how to get some of it, but all he knew how to do was destroy things and try to cling on to whoever was left standing. Yeah there's no arguing littlefinger was somehow more powerful than tywin, or that he was more powerful than many of the real lords. Tywin and littlefinger were very different characters with very different ideals and goals, and very different abilities to further their own ends. Tywin had name, money, principles, and a vast intellect. Littlefinger became someone from nothing through calculated gambles and cunning I'm not sure if we're talking past each other here or what you were wanting to achieve with what you said originally, but im just pointing out that reducing littlefinger to "merchant who manipulated a child and hovered to remain relevant, and who had no real power" is silly
I never saw him as a master mind or anything of the sort. He was a viper, sure. But he was also high on his own supply, being his faith in how smart he was. He got a little power and assumed he could get more and more by doing the same thing. But there was never a doubt that the moment someone like Tywin ever thought Littlefinger was a problem, Littlefinger would be dead or dealt with. He is someone that could manipulate people who had access to the levers of power, but never had any power himself to resist those people if they turned against him.
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On April 30 2019 23:12 Aocowns wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 22:59 Plansix wrote:On April 30 2019 22:50 Aocowns wrote:On April 30 2019 22:45 Plansix wrote:
Littlefinger was a dude who thought he had a plan to gain power in the system, but only managed to create chaos and never obtained much. His main talent was avoiding being murdered better than most people who are into betrayal. He went from tiny noble house with no power and no lands, to having the Veil in his pocket, getting harrenhal(but then losing it admittedly), and building one of the most profitable and independent businesses in westeros. he was quietly respected and feared, or at least noted, by anyone with meta knowledge of the game in westeros Avoiding being murdered was one of many talents that they had to disregard when they needed to allocate screen time for the good guys and didnt know what to do with a character with that setup anymore So he was a wealthy merchant who manipulated a young lord to do what he wants from time to time? And hangs out with a young Lady to justify his existence at anyone's house after fleeing Kings Landing. And to get that he only needed to spark a war that could cause his power base to evaporate over night. There is a moment in the series when he tells Tywin Lannister about his “Chaos is a ladder” theory and Tywin is just unimpressed. Because Tywin was a man who had created real power. Littlefinger desperately trying to figure out how to get some of it, but all he knew how to do was destroy things and try to cling on to whoever was left standing. Yeah there's no arguing littlefinger was somehow more powerful than tywin, or that he was more powerful than many of the real lords. Tywin and littlefinger were very different characters with very different ideals and goals, and very different abilities to further their own ends. Tywin had name, money, principles, and a vast intellect. Littlefinger became someone from nothing through calculated gambles and cunning (EDIT: intelligent, scheming, cunning, and reckless is a way better characterization of a mastermind-type than tywin's set of defining traits, but that doesnt mean littlefinger would beat tywin at chess, if that makes sense) I'm not sure if we're talking past each other here or what you were wanting to achieve with what you said originally, but im just pointing out that reducing littlefinger to "merchant who manipulated a child and hovered to remain relevant, and who had no real power" is silly
EDIT: oh wait shit thats a real fucup of a post right here lmao, disregard
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On April 30 2019 23:13 Plansix wrote:
I have doubts Littlefinger was ever going to gain more power beyond the small amount he obtained by manipulating children with gifts and marrying above his station.
He literally got control of the army of the vale. Can we pls be factual at least, it is incredibly intellectually dishonest to phrase things the way you do :/
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On April 30 2019 23:07 Gorsameth wrote:
The ending feels like a bad D& session where the rogue wants to do something truelly stupid and the DM lets him to punish him when it obviously fails only to roll critical success after critical success and goes "well I guess he's dead then" as he chucks a dozen pages of future notes into a bin.
The entire episode was just utter garbage.
The Dothraki charge.
Siege engines INFRONT of the infantry line
The whole episode shot so dark you can't even see 90% of what is going on.
Jorah was with the Dothraki charge, but he doesn't die there somehow?
I'm sure the dragon fight was utterly beautiful but I couldn't see 2 black dragon shaped blobs fighting in a dark blue background.
Playing hide and seek in an empty castle during a massive siege was fun...
Jorah, after teleporting out of the Dorthraki charge, hears Dany's dragon and teleports outside the castle walls intime to save her, while a couple of 100k zombies are between them. This man is the greatest wizard in the realm.
Wtf is Bran even doing? I was expecting him to were something or be getting help somewhere?
I'm not even mad, it was to depressing to get mad about.
Just... sad.
Not to mention we saw Brienne, Jaime, The Hound, Pod, and Grey Worm get literally get buried like 3 times each at least, then come out with naught but a scratch.
Jorah? 5 randomly charging skeletons stab him before he can swing his sword.
Not complaining about him dying - it was a great death scene and was extremely realistic to a tired veteran no longer being able to defend himself efficiently. It just shows how insane the plot armor on everyone else was.
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On April 30 2019 23:07 Gorsameth wrote:
The ending feels like a bad D& session where the rogue wants to do something truelly stupid and the DM lets him to punish him when it obviously fails only to roll critical success after critical success and goes "well I guess he's dead then" as he chucks a dozen pages of future notes into a bin.
The entire episode was just utter garbage.
The Dothraki charge.
Siege engines INFRONT of the infantry line
The whole episode shot so dark you can't even see 90% of what is going on.
Jorah was with the Dothraki charge, but he doesn't die there somehow?
I'm sure the dragon fight was utterly beautiful but I couldn't see 2 black dragon shaped blobs fighting in a dark blue background.
Playing hide and seek in an empty castle during a massive siege was fun...
Jorah, after teleporting out of the Dorthraki charge, hears Dany's dragon and teleports outside the castle walls intime to save her, while a couple of 100k zombies are between them. This man is the greatest wizard in the realm.
Wtf is Bran even doing? I was expecting him to were something or be getting help somewhere?
I'm not even mad, it was to depressing to get mad about.
Just... sad.
I'm so sympathetic to your sadness.
Being the kind of guy who gets really roped in by the spectacle, I could at least enjoy the superficial aspects of the episode which I still think were sublime. The music especially, but the shot of the Dothraki, in spite of its stupidity, was one of the most impressive scenes I've seen on TV.
When Melisandre looked at Arya I felt my gut sink. I actually said to my girlfriend "how lame would it be if Arya just stabs the Night King?". When Beric died protecting her, we both knew that was exactly what was about to happen, but I still had some hope for a twist.
The straightforward ending was just too on the nose, too predictable.
But then it happened and now I feel like I lost an old friend, the story I loved is now well and truly gone.
This is the internet all over again.
This is WoW all over again.
Once the normies take an interest, everything goes to shit.
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On April 30 2019 23:13 Plansix wrote:
I have doubts Littlefinger was ever going to gain more power beyond the small amount he obtained by manipulating children with gifts and marrying above his station.
I'm pretty sure we can safely assume that he got control of THE ENTIRE VALE, as well as A MONOPOLY ON THE BROTHELBUSINESS, as well as A SEAT ON THE SMALL COUNCIL, as well as HARRENHAL AND THE SURROUNDING LANDS, as well as THE KEY PERSON TO THE ENTIRE NORTH through more than manipulating children
I do believe he did, in fact, converse with many adults, many of whom he manipulated or schemed with! If we call on the aid of inductive reasoning, one might perhaps come to the conclusion that he did much more than manipulate children to get to the position we see him in the show!
and i hate to quarrel about semantics, but I do believe being in command of the most independently secure realm on the continent, as well as thousands of veteran heavily armoured knights alone, would amount to more than a "small" amount of power!
FURTHER! One might argue that since he gained all of this from barely more than peasant status, that it is well within the realm of possibility and likeliness, that he would slowly accumulate more power, like he has done his entire life!
EDIT: in the interest of being completely honest with myself and the person im arguing with, I have to point out an inaccuracy in my post: Petyr did not, in fact, slowly accumulate more power for the entirety of his life, the accumulation of power started happening at some point after his teens, and the first 20 years do constitute a significant period of life without power accumulation
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I think Littlefinger was handled just like all the other interesting but ultimately pointless sideplots in the show; the showrunners had no idea what to do with him so they just wrote him into a corner and finished his "storyline". They've been doing this for over a season now with Sansa, Varys, Tyrion, Dorne after Oberyn died, the Tyrells after Margaery died, etc. etc. etc. They couldn't come up with anything interesting and probably thought it would be cooler if Jon went into the Battle of the Bastards a 2:1 underdog so they introduced some random northern lords but didn't do anything with them (remember all the hype around the Manderlys being included?)
Almost everything they've decided to do that wasn't spelled out in the books has been utter garbage. Their omissions and simplifications have mostly been fine but with very few exceptions almost everything they've changed is just terrible. They had some minor success in the changes to Arya's plotlines and I'll give them credit for that; I think, for example, her pairings with Tywin and the Hound are some of the best changes that were show-specific. Aside from that, it's been excruciating to watch the show over the past 2 seasons in particular, and at this point I've lost all faith that the showrunners can finish the series out without completely butchering it. That's really sad, because I also don't have much confidence that GRRM can finish the books, and TBH his latest books haven't been as good as the first 3 anyway.
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EPT
