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All book discussion in this thread is now allowed. |
On April 30 2019 21:34 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 21:30 sharkie wrote:
I just realised why you guys are so upset about the newer seasons!
There is less sex, gore and swearing happening!
Because those three things are the real reason GoT has become so popular and why you love it. ^^ I think I realized why you're defending it. None of the main characters can die any more so you don't have to feel sad. Thing is, none of the main characters die in Teletubbies either so you might as well watch that.
If you think I am defending GoT I think you need to re-read my posts. XD
I am one of the biggest critics of GoT since season 1/book 1.
There are tons of shows where main characters die....
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On April 30 2019 21:37 solidbebe wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 21:20 sharkie wrote:On April 30 2019 21:19 Acrofales wrote:On April 30 2019 21:13 sharkie wrote:On April 30 2019 21:08 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 30 2019 21:01 sharkie wrote:On April 30 2019 19:52 solidbebe wrote:On April 30 2019 19:29 sharkie wrote:On April 30 2019 19:27 solidbebe wrote:On April 30 2019 08:55 ZenithM wrote:
[quote]
I mean, at some point when the 20-something guys left are about to die, what do you expect? Obviously there is going to be some ass-pull of epic proportion...
Anyway I shouldn't have come read this thread, I'm kinda baffled at how hard it is for some of you guys to enjoy this kind of things. I know we're on an RTS forum and all that and we're all pretty rational people, but it must be hard enjoying any kind of fiction these days. I don't envy you, I found this episode riveting. It sets new standards in production at least (like, the overall visuals/music).
If I had to say something non-plot related, I just wasn't too much of a fan of the whole sneaking-past-slow-cackling-zombies trope played 100% straight-up in that Arya scene. If you know you are watching a dumb show/movie you can just turn your brain of and enjoy it for what it is. Problem is GoT wasn't like that. It started out as easily the most in realism-based fantasty show ever. Characters had agency but were always subject to the many dangers present in medieval life. Khal drogo died of an infection, Ned got beheaded because Geoffrey needed some spectacle, Tywin got crossbowed on the toilet by his son, the whole robb group got slaughtered because of their naivety and underestimating the depravity their enemies would stoop to. Since season 5 GoT has been devolving into regular old hollywood bullshit, and now that they have to end it, it's clearer than ever. When you attract a huge crowd of people who are really into what the show sets out to be, and then the show does a complete 180 and becomes exactly the opposite of what it was, are you surprised that the internet is full of angry nerds? What? Game of thrones has always been exactly a show where you enjoyed it most when you turned off your brain.. Its good at hiding it but in the end its exactly that. Why do you think its the most popular pop culture tv show? lol Definitely not because its brainy Did you watch the first 4 seasons? Whatever characters did there were nearly always serious consequences. That is simply not the case anymore. Just look at cersei blowing up all the people she didnt like in kings landing and getting no pushback whatsoever. Ned, Rob's deaths - what were the serious consequences for Ned, Rob and Oberon's deaths? They only happened for shock value. Dorn is gone, North has almost no lord/ladies or fight-able people. Pretty sure these iconic exchanges were completely one-sided. GoT never had balance. The bad guys were always in the lead Oh so because multiple seasons later after all the consequence to these deaths already happened we just had another big fight in the north which slaughtered most of them, the logical conclusion is that these deaths didn't matter for the story and were just played for shock value. Genius take. Sadly one has to somewhat agree with the dorne part, but that's on D&D and start of the big downhill streak we are on, dorne in the show was basically the start of mediocrity. Waiting for iconic, well crafted scenes btw  No, dont use in retrospect when I didnt use it please. What were consequences of Robs and Neds slaughters back then when it happened? Nothing. The bad guys won- What was the consequence of Oberon's death? Nothing. The bad guys won. It is so easy to say "Oberon's cockiness cost him, woohooo. What great writing." Well then I revert that "great writing" by asking well what is the consequence then for the bad guys for killing Oberon? NOTHING. Tell me one thing in GoT that really had a balanced end result? You say actions have consequences. Well duh, that happens in real life, in all other fiction. You know the difference between GoT and other fiction? The BAD guys win instead of the GOOD guys. (Except towards the end now obviously) But in the end there is still no balance. Consequence of Ned's death: Robb Stark united the north and rose up in rebellion. It essentially started the war of the 5 kings. Consequence of Robb's death: the northern rebellion was quashed and the Starks were removed from power, with the Roose Bolton becoming the Warden of the North, and his sadistic bastard son ruling winterfell while "waiting" for him to arrive. How are those "no consequence"? Oberyn's death was avenged by killing Myrcella (in the most comically botched of subplots on the TV show... everything about Dorne is a total travesty and you should just assume Myrcella died of consumption and skip every Dorne seen if you rewatch the show). Myrcella's death was what sealed the deal on Cersei going full mad queen, although at this point Hollywood has already taken over the plotlines and this was not done very well. If you define that as consequences then what sort of fiction does not have consequences? Aryas whole storyline since joining the faceless men is fiction that does not have consequences. See my rant before.
Arya just killed the Night King
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On April 30 2019 21:37 solidbebe wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 21:20 sharkie wrote:On April 30 2019 21:19 Acrofales wrote:On April 30 2019 21:13 sharkie wrote:On April 30 2019 21:08 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 30 2019 21:01 sharkie wrote:On April 30 2019 19:52 solidbebe wrote:On April 30 2019 19:29 sharkie wrote:On April 30 2019 19:27 solidbebe wrote:On April 30 2019 08:55 ZenithM wrote:
[quote]
I mean, at some point when the 20-something guys left are about to die, what do you expect? Obviously there is going to be some ass-pull of epic proportion...
Anyway I shouldn't have come read this thread, I'm kinda baffled at how hard it is for some of you guys to enjoy this kind of things. I know we're on an RTS forum and all that and we're all pretty rational people, but it must be hard enjoying any kind of fiction these days. I don't envy you, I found this episode riveting. It sets new standards in production at least (like, the overall visuals/music).
If I had to say something non-plot related, I just wasn't too much of a fan of the whole sneaking-past-slow-cackling-zombies trope played 100% straight-up in that Arya scene. If you know you are watching a dumb show/movie you can just turn your brain of and enjoy it for what it is. Problem is GoT wasn't like that. It started out as easily the most in realism-based fantasty show ever. Characters had agency but were always subject to the many dangers present in medieval life. Khal drogo died of an infection, Ned got beheaded because Geoffrey needed some spectacle, Tywin got crossbowed on the toilet by his son, the whole robb group got slaughtered because of their naivety and underestimating the depravity their enemies would stoop to. Since season 5 GoT has been devolving into regular old hollywood bullshit, and now that they have to end it, it's clearer than ever. When you attract a huge crowd of people who are really into what the show sets out to be, and then the show does a complete 180 and becomes exactly the opposite of what it was, are you surprised that the internet is full of angry nerds? What? Game of thrones has always been exactly a show where you enjoyed it most when you turned off your brain.. Its good at hiding it but in the end its exactly that. Why do you think its the most popular pop culture tv show? lol Definitely not because its brainy Did you watch the first 4 seasons? Whatever characters did there were nearly always serious consequences. That is simply not the case anymore. Just look at cersei blowing up all the people she didnt like in kings landing and getting no pushback whatsoever. Ned, Rob's deaths - what were the serious consequences for Ned, Rob and Oberon's deaths? They only happened for shock value. Dorn is gone, North has almost no lord/ladies or fight-able people. Pretty sure these iconic exchanges were completely one-sided. GoT never had balance. The bad guys were always in the lead Oh so because multiple seasons later after all the consequence to these deaths already happened we just had another big fight in the north which slaughtered most of them, the logical conclusion is that these deaths didn't matter for the story and were just played for shock value. Genius take. Sadly one has to somewhat agree with the dorne part, but that's on D&D and start of the big downhill streak we are on, dorne in the show was basically the start of mediocrity. Waiting for iconic, well crafted scenes btw No, dont use in retrospect when I didnt use it please. What were consequences of Robs and Neds slaughters back then when it happened? Nothing. The bad guys won- What was the consequence of Oberon's death? Nothing. The bad guys won. It is so easy to say "Oberon's cockiness cost him, woohooo. What great writing." Well then I revert that "great writing" by asking well what is the consequence then for the bad guys for killing Oberon? NOTHING. Tell me one thing in GoT that really had a balanced end result? You say actions have consequences. Well duh, that happens in real life, in all other fiction. You know the difference between GoT and other fiction? The BAD guys win instead of the GOOD guys. (Except towards the end now obviously) But in the end there is still no balance. Consequence of Ned's death: Robb Stark united the north and rose up in rebellion. It essentially started the war of the 5 kings. Consequence of Robb's death: the northern rebellion was quashed and the Starks were removed from power, with the Roose Bolton becoming the Warden of the North, and his sadistic bastard son ruling winterfell while "waiting" for him to arrive. How are those "no consequence"? Oberyn's death was avenged by killing Myrcella (in the most comically botched of subplots on the TV show... everything about Dorne is a total travesty and you should just assume Myrcella died of consumption and skip every Dorne seen if you rewatch the show). Myrcella's death was what sealed the deal on Cersei going full mad queen, although at this point Hollywood has already taken over the plotlines and this was not done very well. If you define that as consequences then what sort of fiction does not have consequences? Aryas whole storyline since joining the faceless men is fiction that does not have consequences. See my rant before.
Arya joining faceless men had a lot of characters die. How is that not a consequence?
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On April 30 2019 21:38 sharkie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 21:34 Jockmcplop wrote:On April 30 2019 21:30 sharkie wrote:
I just realised why you guys are so upset about the newer seasons!
There is less sex, gore and swearing happening!
Because those three things are the real reason GoT has become so popular and why you love it. ^^ I think I realized why you're defending it. None of the main characters can die any more so you don't have to feel sad. Thing is, none of the main characters die in Teletubbies either so you might as well watch that. If you think I am defending GoT I think you need to re-read my posts. XD I am one of the biggest critics of GoT since season 1/book 1. There are tons of shows where main characters die....
Game of Thrones used have a situation where the main characters - the protagonists especially - would die if they did something stupid because that was the nature of the shit they were involved in fighting for the throne.
That has changed, without doubt. Now they do stupid stuff all the time and there are still consequences but the consequences are different. They are written like standard TV show consequences now. They affect the story in such a way that the main characters get a chance to learn from things and everything can turn out ok for them in the end. It makes things less tense, and makes the smaller moments less impactful, so they have to turn everything up to 11.
Its like watching a Marvel movie now.
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On April 30 2019 21:36 sharkie wrote:
Littlefinger's death had the consequence of Sansa being finally free of all reins and being able to act on her own and less lieing and intrigue in GoT.
Dorn's and Sandsnakes disappearance has as much value and effect as losing the Riverlands had back then. Why do people complain about Dorn but never about the Riverlands? Yeah because Riverlands was destroyed back then "when GoT was good".
Also what scenes?
Sansa was free as soon as they took winterfell. The writers had to fake drama between sansa and arya to get any tension going. Littlefinger's death itself did absolutely nothing to any of the characters, it had no emotional impact and no narrative one.
Dorne's cutting from the story (with all the deaths) has no narrative impact and no emotional one other than it not being in the story anymore.
We talked about deaths having narrative/emotional impact, this isn't about a region. Though i would certainly agree that the show forgot about the riverland's for a long time until Jaime went there (which he does earlier in the books instead of doing all that dorne garbage).
I linked iconic and well crafted scenes to showcase the micro lvl writing, the dialogue/monologue. I said that nothing out of the last seasons come close, said that it might be bias but if it is it should be easy for you to prove me wrong with recent examples. I am still waiting  (ofc anybody can prove me wrong there, it's all on youtube pretty sure)
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Im talking about consequences for her. None of the things she did ever came back to bite her. She hasnt struggled with anything, mentally or emotionally. Shes just a perfect little teenager girl who is a psychopath when shes in badass killing mode and happy normal member of the stark family when she isnt.
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On April 30 2019 21:43 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 21:38 sharkie wrote:On April 30 2019 21:34 Jockmcplop wrote:On April 30 2019 21:30 sharkie wrote:
I just realised why you guys are so upset about the newer seasons!
There is less sex, gore and swearing happening!
Because those three things are the real reason GoT has become so popular and why you love it. ^^ I think I realized why you're defending it. None of the main characters can die any more so you don't have to feel sad. Thing is, none of the main characters die in Teletubbies either so you might as well watch that. If you think I am defending GoT I think you need to re-read my posts. XD I am one of the biggest critics of GoT since season 1/book 1. There are tons of shows where main characters die.... Game of Thrones used have a situation where the main characters - the protagonists especially - would die if they did something stupid because that was the nature of the shit they were involved in fighting for the throne. That has changed, without doubt. Now they do stupid stuff all the time and there are still consequences but the consequences are different. They are written like standard TV show consequences now. They affect the story in such a way that the main characters get a chance to learn from things and everything can turn out ok for them in the end. It makes things less tense, and makes the smaller moments less impactful, so they have to turn everything up to 11. Its like watching a Marvel movie now.
Ok well then maybe you were watching the shows in a different light than I did. Because after the red wedding I never ever expected the Lannister children to die till the very end.
Same with Danaerys, Jon, Varys, Sansa, Arya.
Littlefinger actually died sooner than I expected him to.
Can you truthfully say that you never expected Cersei, Tyrion, Jaime, Sansa, Arya, Varys, Daenarys, Jon to die till the last book/season?
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On April 30 2019 21:44 solidbebe wrote:
Im talking about consequences for her. None of the things she did ever came back to bite her. She hasnt struggled with anything, mentally or emotionally. Shes just a perfect little teenager girl who is a psychopath when shes in badass killing mode and happy normal member of the stark family when she isnt.
Feminist writing in a nutshell, all of the power, none of the responsibility.
None of that stupid "Brienne trains for thirty-odd years and has setback after setback, growing with each loss to eventually become the best swordsman in the realm and the first female knight".
Why have any hardships when you can just move the badass slider to 11 and somehow that's good fiction?
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On April 30 2019 21:43 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 21:36 sharkie wrote:
Littlefinger's death had the consequence of Sansa being finally free of all reins and being able to act on her own and less lieing and intrigue in GoT.
Dorn's and Sandsnakes disappearance has as much value and effect as losing the Riverlands had back then. Why do people complain about Dorn but never about the Riverlands? Yeah because Riverlands was destroyed back then "when GoT was good".
Also what scenes? Sansa was free as soon as they took winterfell. The writers had to fake drama between sansa and arya to get any tension going. Littlefinger's death itself did absolutely nothing to any of the characters, it had no emotional impact and no narrative one. Dorne's cutting from the story (with all the deaths) has no narrative impact and no emotional one other than it not being in the story anymore. We talked about deaths having narrative/emotional impact, this isn't about a region. Though i would certainly agree that the show forgot about the riverland's for a long time until Jaime went there (which he does earlier in the books instead of doing all that dorne garbage). I linked iconic and well crafted scenes to showcase the micro lvl writing, the dialogue/monologue. I said that nothing out of the last seasons come close, said that it might be bias but if it is it should be easy for you to prove me wrong with recent examples. I am still waiting (ofc anybody can prove me wrong there, it's all on youtube pretty sure)
You think Littlefingers death will have any emotional impact and/or narrative impact when it will happen in the books? No, that guy is hated by everyone. Dont blame the show for that.
Aaahh well for me the scenes are not more special than the ones happening now. So I cant link you any hehe
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On April 30 2019 21:43 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 21:36 sharkie wrote:
Littlefinger's death had the consequence of Sansa being finally free of all reins and being able to act on her own and less lieing and intrigue in GoT.
Dorn's and Sandsnakes disappearance has as much value and effect as losing the Riverlands had back then. Why do people complain about Dorn but never about the Riverlands? Yeah because Riverlands was destroyed back then "when GoT was good".
Also what scenes? Sansa was free as soon as they took winterfell. The writers had to fake drama between sansa and arya to get any tension going.
Can we talk about fake-outs like this and aryas night king assassination which are specifically for the audience are basically just breaking the fourth wall? The only reason they choose to present it in such a way is to fool the audience, it has nothing to do with the actual story. You can practically feel D&D going 'hah! gotcha viewer!!!' every time something like this happens. I guess some people enjoy that aspect of it, but I hate it every time.
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On April 30 2019 21:49 love2d wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 21:44 solidbebe wrote:
Im talking about consequences for her. None of the things she did ever came back to bite her. She hasnt struggled with anything, mentally or emotionally. Shes just a perfect little teenager girl who is a psychopath when shes in badass killing mode and happy normal member of the stark family when she isnt. Feminist writing in a nutshell, all of the power, none of the responsibility. Just move the badass slider to 11 and somehow that's good fiction.
Feminist writing??
ok I think I've heard it all now
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On April 30 2019 21:49 love2d wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 21:44 solidbebe wrote:
Im talking about consequences for her. None of the things she did ever came back to bite her. She hasnt struggled with anything, mentally or emotionally. Shes just a perfect little teenager girl who is a psychopath when shes in badass killing mode and happy normal member of the stark family when she isnt. Feminist writing in a nutshell, all of the power, none of the responsibility. Just move the badass slider to 11 and somehow that's good fiction.
Yeah just dont associate me with your red pill garbage thank you.
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On April 30 2019 21:50 solidbebe wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 21:43 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 30 2019 21:36 sharkie wrote:
Littlefinger's death had the consequence of Sansa being finally free of all reins and being able to act on her own and less lieing and intrigue in GoT.
Dorn's and Sandsnakes disappearance has as much value and effect as losing the Riverlands had back then. Why do people complain about Dorn but never about the Riverlands? Yeah because Riverlands was destroyed back then "when GoT was good".
Also what scenes? Sansa was free as soon as they took winterfell. The writers had to fake drama between sansa and arya to get any tension going. Can we talk about fake-outs like this and aryas night king assassination which are specifically for the audience are basically just breaking the fourth wall? The only reason they choose to present it in such a way is to fool the audience, it has nothing to do with the actual story. You can practically feel D&D going 'hah! gotcha viewer!!!' every time something like this happens. I guess some people enjoy that aspect of it, but I hate it every time.
I dont think we need to talk about this. Everyone agrees what horrible writing that "tension" between Sansa and Arys was.
I pity the people who actually believed it being real.
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On April 30 2019 21:50 solidbebe wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 21:43 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 30 2019 21:36 sharkie wrote:
Littlefinger's death had the consequence of Sansa being finally free of all reins and being able to act on her own and less lieing and intrigue in GoT.
Dorn's and Sandsnakes disappearance has as much value and effect as losing the Riverlands had back then. Why do people complain about Dorn but never about the Riverlands? Yeah because Riverlands was destroyed back then "when GoT was good".
Also what scenes? Sansa was free as soon as they took winterfell. The writers had to fake drama between sansa and arya to get any tension going. Can we talk about fake-outs like this and aryas night king assassination which are specifically for the audience are basically just breaking the fourth wall? The only reason they choose to present it in such a way is to fool the audience, it has nothing to do with the actual story. You can practically feel D&D going 'hah! gotcha viewer!!!' every time something like this happens. I guess some people enjoy that aspect of it, but I hate it every time.
How's this different from Sansa saving LF in front of the lords of the Vale earlier, or Brienne leaving her watch just before Sansa lits the candle, or any other big "revelation" moment that came earlier?
It looks like when the big tense / epic moments came earlier and favored the "bad guys" they were ok, now it's "bad writing" or "breaking the fourth wall".
I don't know, I don't see that big of a problem tbh
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On April 30 2019 21:44 solidbebe wrote:
Im talking about consequences for her. None of the things she did ever came back to bite her. She hasnt struggled with anything, mentally or emotionally. Shes just a perfect little teenager girl who is a psychopath when shes in badass killing mode and happy normal member of the stark family when she isnt.
Saw her father executed, being hunted down, then saw her uncle(?) of the night's watch killed as well, tried and failed to get her brother. On the run for 5 years etc.
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On April 30 2019 21:55 VHbb wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 21:50 solidbebe wrote:On April 30 2019 21:43 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 30 2019 21:36 sharkie wrote:
Littlefinger's death had the consequence of Sansa being finally free of all reins and being able to act on her own and less lieing and intrigue in GoT.
Dorn's and Sandsnakes disappearance has as much value and effect as losing the Riverlands had back then. Why do people complain about Dorn but never about the Riverlands? Yeah because Riverlands was destroyed back then "when GoT was good".
Also what scenes? Sansa was free as soon as they took winterfell. The writers had to fake drama between sansa and arya to get any tension going. Can we talk about fake-outs like this and aryas night king assassination which are specifically for the audience are basically just breaking the fourth wall? The only reason they choose to present it in such a way is to fool the audience, it has nothing to do with the actual story. You can practically feel D&D going 'hah! gotcha viewer!!!' every time something like this happens. I guess some people enjoy that aspect of it, but I hate it every time. How's this different from Sansa saving LF in front of the lords of the Vale earlier, or Brienne leaving her watch just before Sansa lits the candle, or any other big "revelation" moment that came earlier? It looks like when the big tense / epic moments came earlier and favored the "bad guys" they were ok, now it's "bad writing" or "breaking the fourth wall". I don't know, I don't see that big of a problem tbh
The Brienne candle thing was lame because it was SO close that it was clear they were doing that for an audience reaction as well, but I wouldn't call it a fake-out. We saw it from Sansa's perspective, from Brienne's perspective, and then they missed each other. At no point was the audience fooled.
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On April 30 2019 21:57 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 21:44 solidbebe wrote:
Im talking about consequences for her. None of the things she did ever came back to bite her. She hasnt struggled with anything, mentally or emotionally. Shes just a perfect little teenager girl who is a psychopath when shes in badass killing mode and happy normal member of the stark family when she isnt. Saw her father executed, being hunted down, then saw her uncle(?) of the night's watch killed as well, tried and failed to get her brother. On the run for 5 years etc.
It is like he deleted every other season of this show from his memory.
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On April 30 2019 21:57 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 21:44 solidbebe wrote:
Im talking about consequences for her. None of the things she did ever came back to bite her. She hasnt struggled with anything, mentally or emotionally. Shes just a perfect little teenager girl who is a psychopath when shes in badass killing mode and happy normal member of the stark family when she isnt. Saw her father executed, being hunted down, then saw her uncle(?) of the night's watch killed as well, tried and failed to get her brother. On the run for 5 years etc.
I was talking about since she joined the faceless men. She used to be a character back when the show was good, now she's a badass.
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On April 30 2019 22:01 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 21:57 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:On April 30 2019 21:44 solidbebe wrote:
Im talking about consequences for her. None of the things she did ever came back to bite her. She hasnt struggled with anything, mentally or emotionally. Shes just a perfect little teenager girl who is a psychopath when shes in badass killing mode and happy normal member of the stark family when she isnt. Saw her father executed, being hunted down, then saw her uncle(?) of the night's watch killed as well, tried and failed to get her brother. On the run for 5 years etc. It is like he deleted every other season of this show from his memory.
I wish I could delete the last 4.
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I mean nobody forces you to watch 10s of hours of a show you don't like 
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EPT
