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All book discussion in this thread is now allowed. |
Arya's statutory rape scene is just the cherry on top of the shit sundae that is her character ever since she sailed to Essos.
I have never found her to be believable as a "badass" or really as anything other than a vulnerable little girl. No, I don't care what D&D say, that girl can't win a fight with Brienne or any other foot soldier. She's like 5 feet tall with wrists that would break if they ever swung a sword. Her movements are clumsy and no, she can't actually throw dragon glass like darts with zero prior training. I do not believe it whatsoever. I get that the fans want to see Arya get her vengeance but making her into the bride from kill bill because she spent 2 weeks in Essos is the wrong way to go about it.
How about having her outsmart people instead? Remember how she killed Meryn Trant? She used a disguise and had the element of surprise. Although I would have handled the scene a bit differently - maybe having Trant fight back and nearly kill her but with Arya ultimately get away due to his blood loss or something.
Her killing Walder Frey and the rest of his family was kinda smart. I'm okay with that. Maybe not the pie scene because it's a bit ridiculous, but poisoning wine? Sure.
But now she's a Naruto Kunoichi with the the personality of an angsty teenager that just got grounded - and I wonder if this is the result of good or terrible acting on Sophie's part. In fact all of the "strong female characters" have now become total assholes - Dany, Sansa and Arya. Apparently, unlikability and sassiness makes strong woman according to D&D.
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Sorry, i don't see it that way. The way thise scene was conceived was by a brainstorming of show writers being asked the question how to stretch the season by 5 more minutes. Someone then uttered the words Arya could fuck somebody and was immediately ashamed of himself and the idea was picked nontheless. It serves no point, it has no ramifications for her, it is just there for the audience, to make them feel a bit more sorry for seeing Gendry die next episode. It is cheap. I am not saying a person like Arya might have done that in this situation, i am saying it is not worth telling in that fashion. It is the same as Jon telling Daenerys the minute before the most important battle in their generation, by the way, my queen, i am the true heir to the throne you have fought the last years for. We cannot discuss this now and it only complicates everything from here on, but i felt like the audience should know that you know now. Both things are a calculated move for the audience, not for the characters or the story.
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I thought the scene was mostly awkward because it didn't (hasn't) added anything to the plot or the growth of any of the characters. Maybe it will over the next episodes, but just as likely the show would be the exact same with or without that scene. So it's more or less just fan service. It's also a little odd as fan service because it's felt like the show has sort of used Gendry as an audience stand in everyman in the later seasons.
The one thing that *is* a little bit odd about it is that the show is now completely in the "no woman escapes nudity" realm now. Arya was the only major (not old) female character to not be sexualized or forced into a negative sexual situation (like Sansa). And I think that's a little... odd... given the show's theming around the role of women and what not. With three major characters attempting to break the confines of being born women, four if you count Sansa, it's weird that none of them escape being put into a sexual situation in the show.
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The ongoing theory theory about why they are spending so much time giving characters moments is to make it impossible to predict who will get offed in the next episode and beyond. For years the auidence has been predicting who would get offed by how their story was wrapping up. But if everyone is sort of at the end of their tale, then we can't predict who will get the ax next week.
It is also the helm's deep/Zulu style of story telling before the big battle. Everyone is bracing for the fight, so we are spending time with them before they get thrown into the meat grinder. It is a little weird because this is a series. But its one where the audience has not seen these characters for 2 years.
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I enjoy the time spent with each character, and even enjoyed the Arya/Gendry banter. I think even the implication of them having sex is fine but it felt overly gratuitous for something that doesn't change the plot.
Doubly so because Gendry has had a lot of recent screen time and Arya is the favorite character of the show who really will only die if the show runners decide to be masochistic (which so far the show has never been).
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On April 24 2019 02:33 Logo wrote:
I enjoy the time spent with each character, and even enjoyed the Arya/Gendry banter. I think even the implication of them having sex is fine but it felt overly gratuitous for something that doesn't change the plot.
Doubly so because Gendry has had a lot of recent screen time and Arya is the favorite character of the show who really will only die if the show runners decide to be masochistic (which so far the show has never been). Arya is completely overconfident. I kind of expect that overconfidence to kill her at some point.
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On April 24 2019 02:39 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2019 02:33 Logo wrote:
I enjoy the time spent with each character, and even enjoyed the Arya/Gendry banter. I think even the implication of them having sex is fine but it felt overly gratuitous for something that doesn't change the plot.
Doubly so because Gendry has had a lot of recent screen time and Arya is the favorite character of the show who really will only die if the show runners decide to be masochistic (which so far the show has never been). Arya is completely overconfident. I kind of expect that overconfidence to kill her at some point.
Yeah, that would be her downfall, but it's sort of a crappy character arc. She's not that overconfident certainly not to the point of a tragic flaw. It would be really difficult to construct a plot where her death greatly changes the course of action as the plot currently stands besides just 'enraging' a character to do what they were going to do anyways. And "over confidence is bad" is a pretty terribly bland moral lesson for 8 seasons of building up a character.
Which is sort of why I think the only way to kill her is to be masochistic about it and do it purely for the shock value, which is possible, shows have done that before, but that historically isn't GoT's style even when shocking major deaths occur. They've always served a purpose for the story worthy of the prominence of the character.
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Talking about crappy characters arcs: which of the characters alive now actually had good ones? Id argue Jamie is by the far the strongest. Brienne's story was alright. Cersei and Tyrion are also pretty good. Sam has had a good story as well.
Jon has been goodie two shoes since the beginning and his actual death and resurrection had no effect on his character.
Sansa is apparently a shrewd diplomat and strong leader now but honestly Im not buying it. What has she really accomplished?
Arya is one of the most ridiculous characters in recent memory. She apparently turned into some psycho killer superninja. She doesnt really act like any real person would. Just unbelievable.
Daenarys had somewhat of an arc in becoming queen but since then it seems like shes turning into a tyrant. Could be interesting if it goes somewhere but with 4 episodes and the whitewalkers left im not holding my breath.
The hound is same character from s1. Podrick, Beric, the wildling guy, and the nightswatch dude who isnt sam are all one dimensional sidecharacters anyways. Jorah shouldve died 4 seasons ago but hes not half bad. Davis' arc was also quite good.
Did I miss anyone?
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Tyrion's is hella weak after his father's murder though
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Jaime, and Brienne are the most compelling, I'd say.
Arya could be interesting but she's too popular. Arya and Cersei are actually very similar characters in a lot of ways, or at least Arya wants to be a lot more like Cersei. Arya desires extra-judicial vengeance for wrongs committed to her which is exactly what has motivated Cersei through all the seasons (outside of her treatment of Tyrion). Both have struggled to overcome societies pre-determined role for them. Cersei may have a lot of additional undesirable traits (she's impulsive, dismissive of other, etc.) but a lot of her core isn't actually all different from Arya.
But the show seems unwilling to explore the darker side of Arya and who she is and instead wants to just let the audience bask in her glory.
Similarly they've taken Cersei and obliterated all of her non-evil traits which is just as bad, but in the opposite direction.
I think Sam has some potential going forward on account of the fate of his family + his present situation with Gilly.
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Canada8988 Posts
I don't really mind the assassin metamorphosis for Arya, but I'm still not over the whole "no one" thing.
How did she stop being no one? Was she ever no one? If not how do you trick shape shifting monk into thinking your no one?
As for Arya herself if they don't kill her I think her pulling a reek and getting the shit out of dodge when think turn soure, it would be a fitting thing to do for her caracter, at the end of the day she's a survivor.
As for the sex scene, I felt to me like she just wanted to bang not that she was deaply in love with Gendry, fair enough. I could have lived without them showing it, but that's been a problem since the first season of the show. There are about as much prostitute in the show as in the old Assassin Creed game
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One of the problems with the narrative around the murdering people training under the many faced god is that they didn’t take the time to make the audience question if Hot Jesus was a reliable narrator/source of information about the god. They are left to believe that he knows exactly what the god wants and is providing perfect information on how to please the god and gain magic face powers. We are never given the time to question if he is being less than honest or is attempting to push Arya to defy him. Given the way the story line ends, it seemed pretty clear to me that Hot Jesus wanted his two students to be in conflict and whoever won could left as face stealing assassin. He seemed less invested in having Arya remain as “no one”, only that she never reveal how she obtained her abilities.
But that read requires a lot out of the audience and me filling in a lot of blanks that were just left out there. But the show had way too many characters at that point in the series, so I’ll cut it some slack giving how trash that part of the books is.
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On April 24 2019 04:20 solidbebe wrote:
Talking about crappy characters arcs: which of the characters alive now actually had good ones? Id argue Jamie is by the far the strongest. Brienne's story was alright. Cersei and Tyrion are also pretty good. Sam has had a good story as well.
Jon has been goodie two shoes since the beginning and his actual death and resurrection had no effect on his character.
Sansa is apparently a shrewd diplomat and strong leader now but honestly Im not buying it. What has she really accomplished?
Arya is one of the most ridiculous characters in recent memory. She apparently turned into some psycho killer superninja. She doesnt really act like any real person would. Just unbelievable.
Daenarys had somewhat of an arc in becoming queen but since then it seems like shes turning into a tyrant. Could be interesting if it goes somewhere but with 4 episodes and the whitewalkers left im not holding my breath.
The hound is same character from s1. Podrick, Beric, the wildling guy, and the nightswatch dude who isnt sam are all one dimensional sidecharacters anyways. Jorah shouldve died 4 seasons ago but hes not half bad. Davis' arc was also quite good.
Did I miss anyone?
I strongly disagree on the hound.
Some are missing. Most notably Theon and most boringly Varys (maybe he will do something again sometime).
On the sidecharacter front Bronn, the mountain(and others).
Bran is also missing but who likes to think about him!
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Brenne's arc might not have been great but I'd stand on a table for her character being great and the narrative weight she has had to pull for other people.
+ Show Spoiler [borderline spoiler maybe] +I don't know if its explicit in the TV show but the golden company is the remnents of the blackfyre army either way I'd be surprised if they seriously took a contract against dragons. Especially with Danny's history with mercenaries I think the golden company is going to end up as a double agent for the iron bank now that their debt is paid. The iron bank is going to want to not be on the bad side of literal dragons and will want slavery back. Cersei just doesn't have anything to offer a smart organization like the bank so I have no idea why they would help her
Anyway I think grrm has some aces in the hole for the endgame. I just think the show will be better once the night king is gone. The next episode is going to really need to deliver and I have no idea why it won't.
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If it were the supposed end of the world? What would you do? I would probably have sex expecting the end to come.
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On April 24 2019 07:03 Garbels wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2019 04:20 solidbebe wrote:
Talking about crappy characters arcs: which of the characters alive now actually had good ones? Id argue Jamie is by the far the strongest. Brienne's story was alright. Cersei and Tyrion are also pretty good. Sam has had a good story as well.
Jon has been goodie two shoes since the beginning and his actual death and resurrection had no effect on his character.
Sansa is apparently a shrewd diplomat and strong leader now but honestly Im not buying it. What has she really accomplished?
Arya is one of the most ridiculous characters in recent memory. She apparently turned into some psycho killer superninja. She doesnt really act like any real person would. Just unbelievable.
Daenarys had somewhat of an arc in becoming queen but since then it seems like shes turning into a tyrant. Could be interesting if it goes somewhere but with 4 episodes and the whitewalkers left im not holding my breath.
The hound is same character from s1. Podrick, Beric, the wildling guy, and the nightswatch dude who isnt sam are all one dimensional sidecharacters anyways. Jorah shouldve died 4 seasons ago but hes not half bad. Davis' arc was also quite good.
Did I miss anyone?
I strongly disagree on the hound. Some are missing. Most notably Theon and most boringly Varys (maybe he will do something again sometime). On the sidecharacter front Bronn, the mountain(and others). Bran is also missing but who likes to think about him!
What really changed about the hound? Hes still the same 'fuck everyone' cynical bastard who has no problem murdering anyone.
Theon had a pretty interesting arc though I think he has had a too easy time returning to his former self after being reek. But thats problaby also just because the show had no time for him.
The mountain is not really a character anymore (not that he ever was), just a thrall for cersei. Bronn was a good part of the tyrion/jamie arcs but did he really change himself? I dont think so.
idek wth bran is, but a character he is not.
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On April 24 2019 15:38 solidbebe wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2019 07:03 Garbels wrote:On April 24 2019 04:20 solidbebe wrote:
Talking about crappy characters arcs: which of the characters alive now actually had good ones? Id argue Jamie is by the far the strongest. Brienne's story was alright. Cersei and Tyrion are also pretty good. Sam has had a good story as well.
Jon has been goodie two shoes since the beginning and his actual death and resurrection had no effect on his character.
Sansa is apparently a shrewd diplomat and strong leader now but honestly Im not buying it. What has she really accomplished?
Arya is one of the most ridiculous characters in recent memory. She apparently turned into some psycho killer superninja. She doesnt really act like any real person would. Just unbelievable.
Daenarys had somewhat of an arc in becoming queen but since then it seems like shes turning into a tyrant. Could be interesting if it goes somewhere but with 4 episodes and the whitewalkers left im not holding my breath.
The hound is same character from s1. Podrick, Beric, the wildling guy, and the nightswatch dude who isnt sam are all one dimensional sidecharacters anyways. Jorah shouldve died 4 seasons ago but hes not half bad. Davis' arc was also quite good.
Did I miss anyone?
I strongly disagree on the hound. Some are missing. Most notably Theon and most boringly Varys (maybe he will do something again sometime). On the sidecharacter front Bronn, the mountain(and others). Bran is also missing but who likes to think about him! What really changed about the hound? Hes still the same 'fuck everyone' cynical bastard who has no problem murdering anyone. Theon had a pretty interesting arc though I think he has had a too easy time returning to his former self after being reek. But thats problaby also just because the show had no time for him. The mountain is not really a character anymore (not that he ever was), just a thrall for cersei. Bronn was a good part of the tyrion/jamie arcs but did he really change himself? I dont think so. idek wth bran is, but a character he is not.
He's a plot exposition robot.
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On April 24 2019 15:38 solidbebe wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2019 07:03 Garbels wrote:On April 24 2019 04:20 solidbebe wrote:
Talking about crappy characters arcs: which of the characters alive now actually had good ones? Id argue Jamie is by the far the strongest. Brienne's story was alright. Cersei and Tyrion are also pretty good. Sam has had a good story as well.
Jon has been goodie two shoes since the beginning and his actual death and resurrection had no effect on his character.
Sansa is apparently a shrewd diplomat and strong leader now but honestly Im not buying it. What has she really accomplished?
Arya is one of the most ridiculous characters in recent memory. She apparently turned into some psycho killer superninja. She doesnt really act like any real person would. Just unbelievable.
Daenarys had somewhat of an arc in becoming queen but since then it seems like shes turning into a tyrant. Could be interesting if it goes somewhere but with 4 episodes and the whitewalkers left im not holding my breath.
The hound is same character from s1. Podrick, Beric, the wildling guy, and the nightswatch dude who isnt sam are all one dimensional sidecharacters anyways. Jorah shouldve died 4 seasons ago but hes not half bad. Davis' arc was also quite good.
Did I miss anyone?
I strongly disagree on the hound. Some are missing. Most notably Theon and most boringly Varys (maybe he will do something again sometime). On the sidecharacter front Bronn, the mountain(and others). Bran is also missing but who likes to think about him! What really changed about the hound? Hes still the same 'fuck everyone' cynical bastard who has no problem murdering anyone. .
? He went from hired thug with no holds barred to someone fighting for a cause. He cares about some people now. Learned that not everything in life is suffering. Old Hound wouldn't give a shit if frozen necromancers killed the entire continent.
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Yeah I don't get the claim that the Hound hasn't changed, his convo with Brienne last season and his willingness to hang around to fight the undead speak pretty damn loudly that he isn't the same dude we first met.
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Hound will probably sacrifice his life for someone else (guess Arya) He is the good guy now
Bronn's arc isn't done. We'll see what he does with his crossbow. I'd guess save Jamie/ Tyrions life at some point. Also the good guy now
There are just too many plot armoured people nowadays. Completely different since they diverted so heavily from the books. Guess mainstream audience doesn't want their favorite characters killed senselessly which is quite disappointing for the book fans
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EPT
