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All book discussion in this thread is now allowed. |
On April 24 2019 21:27 Harris1st wrote:
Hound will probably sacrifice his life for someone else (guess Arya) He is the good guy now
Bronn's arc isn't done. We'll see what he does with his crossbow. I'd guess save Jamie/ Tyrions life at some point. Also the good guy now
There are just too many plot armoured people nowadays. Completely different since they diverted so heavily from the books. Guess mainstream audience doesn't want their favorite characters killed senselessly which is quite disappointing for the book fans
To be fair, the show is so far ahead of the books now that we dont even know if the books werent going to do mostly the same thing in terms of plot armour. Going from a story about political struggles between houses to one about white walkers was always going to be difficult.
George himself has no idea how to finish I think.
* You guys are right about the hound btw. Now that I think about it, he has changed, he just doesnt show it that much.
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On April 24 2019 21:27 Harris1st wrote:
Hound will probably sacrifice his life for someone else (guess Arya) He is the good guy now
Bronn's arc isn't done. We'll see what he does with his crossbow. I'd guess save Jamie/ Tyrions life at some point. Also the good guy now
There are just too many plot armoured people nowadays. Completely different since they diverted so heavily from the books. Guess mainstream audience doesn't want their favorite characters killed senselessly which is quite disappointing for the book fans
Because cersei, tyrion, dany, jon, jaime,... dont have plot armour in the books?
Seriously people made GoT some kind of bible with no faults.
Ned Stark was the one big shock no one ever expected that created the myth that Martin kills major characters. Other than him no death was really shocking or unexpected
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On April 24 2019 21:43 sharkie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2019 21:27 Harris1st wrote:
Hound will probably sacrifice his life for someone else (guess Arya) He is the good guy now
Bronn's arc isn't done. We'll see what he does with his crossbow. I'd guess save Jamie/ Tyrions life at some point. Also the good guy now
There are just too many plot armoured people nowadays. Completely different since they diverted so heavily from the books. Guess mainstream audience doesn't want their favorite characters killed senselessly which is quite disappointing for the book fans Because cersei, tyrion, dany, jon, jaime,... dont have plot armour in the books? Seriously people made GoT some kind of bible with no faults. Ned Stark was the one big shock no one ever expected that created the myth that Martin kills major characters. Other than him no death was really shocking or unexpected
We got a badass here that knew Robb's wedding would be Red Wedding. Also I am sure you also knew Tyrion would murder his father, that Joffrey would choke at a wedding and some other stuff.
Now please tell us how many millions of $ have you won through betting?
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On April 24 2019 22:13 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2019 21:43 sharkie wrote:On April 24 2019 21:27 Harris1st wrote:
Hound will probably sacrifice his life for someone else (guess Arya) He is the good guy now
Bronn's arc isn't done. We'll see what he does with his crossbow. I'd guess save Jamie/ Tyrions life at some point. Also the good guy now
There are just too many plot armoured people nowadays. Completely different since they diverted so heavily from the books. Guess mainstream audience doesn't want their favorite characters killed senselessly which is quite disappointing for the book fans Because cersei, tyrion, dany, jon, jaime,... dont have plot armour in the books? Seriously people made GoT some kind of bible with no faults. Ned Stark was the one big shock no one ever expected that created the myth that Martin kills major characters. Other than him no death was really shocking or unexpected We got a badass here that knew Robb's wedding would be Red Wedding. Also I am sure you also knew Tyrion would murder his father, that Joffrey would choke at a wedding and some other stuff. Now please tell us how many millions of $ have you won through betting?
THIS
Anyway, we don't know for sure if in GRRM's version more people die (and stay death) or not. I just had the feeling that the tv show is too soft and was guessing the reason behind it is how invested the tv audience is in some characters.
I hope all ppl in the North die and Cersei wins it all 
Now that would be a plot twist I can get behind
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Plot armor is one of the weirder phrases people throw around when discussing TV shows, especially in game of thrones. It is normally used when characters survive explosions or other events that should kill someone because the plot demands it. But in GoT it is used for characters that have just existed in the show for longer than others. Someone was always going to make it until the end of the series. And a 7 season show cannot make their entire existence off of killing off beloved characters to fuel the story and drama. Game of Thrones came close, but some of these characters will survive.
Also, I could argue that the Red Wedding was just the author being tried of writing those characters and killing them off to make room for characters he wanted to write.
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On April 24 2019 21:27 Harris1st wrote:
Guess mainstream audience doesn't want their favorite characters killed senselessly which is quite disappointing for the book fans
That's never happened though. There's a difference between killing off big characters and killing them off senselessly and the books have never done the latter. Even when characters like Jeor die it serves a major plot related point. You just flat out can't tell the same story by keeping those characters alive and their deaths fundamentally shifted the story, but now the show is in a situation where killing off the major characters now would have little plot resonance outside of like Jaime/Tyrion/Cersei/Jon/Dany, but those characters are still relatively major.
I think there's plenty of characters not big enough to be immune from killed in a battle just to make the battle sad, but those are the people we more or less expect to have a big chance of getting killed already (Hound, Beric, etc.) rather than characters that feel still relevant. But there's still plenty of highly active characters that would just be too pointless to kill without starting up a major plot line for them in the limited time left.
If Arya or Sansa dies but no one is able to take drastically different actions because of it... that's a complete waste. Like you've just thrown 8 years of character in the bin for no purpose. They're characters still involved in the remaining major plot points, but not in a position to drive it. You'd really have to force it to make their deaths anything but senseless.
If anything the show is more willing to senselessly kill off major characters (Jojen, Rickon, Osha, Summer, every single Dorne character, Cat without Lady Stoneheart) because they don't know what to do with them or how to fit them into the screen time they have.
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On April 24 2019 22:57 Plansix wrote:
Plot armor is one of the weirder phrases people throw around when discussing TV shows, especially in game of thrones. It is normally used when characters survive explosions or other events that should kill someone because the plot demands it. But in GoT it is used for characters that have just existed in the show for longer than others. Someone was always going to make it until the end of the series. And a 7 season show cannot make their entire existence off of killing off beloved characters to fuel the story and drama. Game of Thrones came close, but some of these characters will survive.
Also, I could argue that the Red Wedding was just the author being tried of writing those characters and killing them off to make room for characters he wanted to write.
Plot armor is a dumb term because any story has characters with "plot armor", every character has a purpose narratively and until that character didn't fulfill said purpose there is basically no way the author will kill said character.
This can become frustrating when it is too clear though, when the stakes against the character are too high and they still survive. A fairly good example of that in the show would be thormund and the others who were at the wall when it fell. It is incredibly unlikely that they would have survived there, but plotreasons made it so.
That doesn't mean that every character has to die the moment he is in danger ofc, but some things one can accept and others not so much.
But yeah, people overuse the term a lot, unless you want to follow a story which will shuffle their main cast completely there is no way to not write it that way.
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The term is super frustrating because I understand what it is trying go convey, but it is so broad and overused that might as well be useless. And it evokes the sort of youtube surface level film “criticism” that makes me want to crawl in a hole and die when see it. Or talk to people who use that as their primary source of film critique.
Your example is good, however. They could have just has Thormund survive that event and informed us everyone else didn’t make it. It would have been easy to write and added more gravity, especially if all those characters were simply lost off camera to the undead horde or death from the wall falling. But the authors decided that the audience should get one last set of moments with these characters after two years off. Right before they all get put into the grinder. Which isn’t “plot armor” but a choice of what to focus on by the show’s runners.
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On April 24 2019 23:33 Plansix wrote:
The term is super frustrating because I understand what it is trying go convey, but it is so broad and overused that might as well be useless. And it evokes the sort of youtube surface level film “criticism” that makes me want to crawl in a hole and die when see it. Or talk to people who use that as their primary source of film critique.
Your example is good, however. They could have just has Thormund survive that event and informed us everyone else didn’t make it. It would have been easy to write and added more gravity, especially if all those characters were simply lost off camera to the undead horde or death from the wall falling. But the authors decided that the audience should get one last set of moments with these characters after two years off. Right before they all get put into the grinder. Which isn’t “plot armor” but a choice of what to focus on by the show’s runners.
I think killing them at the wall would have always been a mistake, there's no real emotional impact of that event except "oh crap" so any emotion of losing the characters would be wasted.
You could have killed them north of the wall, but again that would be overshadowed by the loss of the dragon and would make the "this expedition was stupid" factor of the event way way worse.
Being killed in a losing battle at Winterfell, or even one won but with immense losses, feels appropriate for the gravitas of the characters.
I'd put their plot armor at the wall mostly around "we don't really have a good way or time to explain why these characters would leave the wall, but we don't want them to die there" which sure is a bit transparent, but felt pretty minor to me.
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Northern Ireland26450 Posts
On April 24 2019 23:33 Plansix wrote:
The term is super frustrating because I understand what it is trying go convey, but it is so broad and overused that might as well be useless. And it evokes the sort of youtube surface level film “criticism” that makes me want to crawl in a hole and die when see it. Or talk to people who use that as their primary source of film critique.
Your example is good, however. They could have just has Thormund survive that event and informed us everyone else didn’t make it. It would have been easy to write and added more gravity, especially if all those characters were simply lost off camera to the undead horde or death from the wall falling. But the authors decided that the audience should get one last set of moments with these characters after two years off. Right before they all get put into the grinder. Which isn’t “plot armor” but a choice of what to focus on by the show’s runners.
Know what you mean, stuff that isn’t even necessarily good criticism catches hold and just gets regurgitated all over the Internet.
Or terms that refer to specific things are misused and applied to things where they don’t really apply.
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Norway28779 Posts
On April 24 2019 00:24 Hyperbola wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2019 00:04 Salteador Neo wrote:On April 23 2019 23:58 Hyperbola wrote:
Anyone else think the Arya romance is completely ham-fisted and out of place? Also she still looks like she's 10 years old to me......
Too much forced romance. Jon and Dany is terrible. Sansa and Theon is probably going to happen so hopefully one of them dies. Jaime and Brienne is alright, but only because it's actually been building up for 4 seasons.
That knighting scene was also really good - they probably stole it from GRRM's diary. I don't see any romance, they are just having sex. And it makes full sense for a couple youngsters before a big battle. Specially if one or both are virgins. She's like ~13 years old in lore. I did not want to see that.
In the tv show, which is different from the book, she is supposed to be 18 years old by now. She was 11 in season 1 and each season is supposed to last about one year making her 18 now. And the character playing her is 22.
To me this scene made perfect sense. Pretty sure virgin me would have wanted nothing more than to get laid if I thought there was a high probability I would get killed the day after, as I generally wanted nothing more even on regular days.
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On April 24 2019 22:13 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2019 21:43 sharkie wrote:On April 24 2019 21:27 Harris1st wrote:
Hound will probably sacrifice his life for someone else (guess Arya) He is the good guy now
Bronn's arc isn't done. We'll see what he does with his crossbow. I'd guess save Jamie/ Tyrions life at some point. Also the good guy now
There are just too many plot armoured people nowadays. Completely different since they diverted so heavily from the books. Guess mainstream audience doesn't want their favorite characters killed senselessly which is quite disappointing for the book fans Because cersei, tyrion, dany, jon, jaime,... dont have plot armour in the books? Seriously people made GoT some kind of bible with no faults. Ned Stark was the one big shock no one ever expected that created the myth that Martin kills major characters. Other than him no death was really shocking or unexpected We got a badass here that knew Robb's wedding would be Red Wedding. Also I am sure you also knew Tyrion would murder his father, that Joffrey would choke at a wedding and some other stuff. Now please tell us how many millions of $ have you won through betting?
I did not know that a Red Wedding would happen but I sure as hell expected Robb to die. Do you know why? Because he was a tactical genius. What would happen if Robb hadn't died? Starks would have won and there would be no drama.
Tywin had to die in order for all three of his children to grow: Jaime, Tyrion and Cersei would never ever be able to do anything with their father still in place (at the head of power).
Those two alone were really not shocking. The manner of in which they died was a shock yes but not THAT they were going to die. Please, anyone who's read novels should have expected that.
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People in the middle ages got married and had sex as soon as they hit puberty, it was normal and happened all the time due to low life expectancy. actually come to think of it, lots of people lose their virginity ASAP in middle school/high school. so arya wanting to bone is fine, why people complain? the more legit complaint is that as stated before shes not believable as a ninja assassin killer - no way she could have taken on brienne. as long as she sticks to dart throwing and ranged attacks, its (sort of) believable but as soon as she wades into meelee yeah right - size matters in a fight sorry
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I think people's complaint is they watched her as a child for a decade and so it was like watching their little sister get it on. Which is understandable, if so long as the person admits its unreasonable because a decade went by from when the show started.
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On April 25 2019 00:18 sharkie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2019 22:13 -Archangel- wrote:On April 24 2019 21:43 sharkie wrote:On April 24 2019 21:27 Harris1st wrote:
Hound will probably sacrifice his life for someone else (guess Arya) He is the good guy now
Bronn's arc isn't done. We'll see what he does with his crossbow. I'd guess save Jamie/ Tyrions life at some point. Also the good guy now
There are just too many plot armoured people nowadays. Completely different since they diverted so heavily from the books. Guess mainstream audience doesn't want their favorite characters killed senselessly which is quite disappointing for the book fans Because cersei, tyrion, dany, jon, jaime,... dont have plot armour in the books? Seriously people made GoT some kind of bible with no faults. Ned Stark was the one big shock no one ever expected that created the myth that Martin kills major characters. Other than him no death was really shocking or unexpected We got a badass here that knew Robb's wedding would be Red Wedding. Also I am sure you also knew Tyrion would murder his father, that Joffrey would choke at a wedding and some other stuff. Now please tell us how many millions of $ have you won through betting? I did not know that a Red Wedding would happen but I sure as hell expected Robb to die. Do you know why? Because he was a tactical genius. What would happen if Robb hadn't died? Starks would have won and there would be no drama. Tywin had to die in order for all three of his children to grow: Jaime, Tyrion and Cersei would never ever be able to do anything with their father still in place (at the head of power). Those two alone were really not shocking. The manner of in which they died was a shock yes but not THAT they were going to die. Please, anyone who's read novels should have expected that.
What you are doing is explain to us why these deaths mattered narratively, why they were deserved and well written. It's still hindsight 20/20 though, there are a million other possibilities to write the story differently without having to kill these characters. Just the most obvious one, creating some new POV characters, which he did anyway.
Now if it is "shocking" as in creating a strong emotional reaction? Depends on how much you liked these characters beforehand.
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Imho Rob had it coming, I was still surprised but he hat it coming as soon as he dishonored his marriage proposal.
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On April 25 2019 00:52 Velr wrote:
Imho Rob had it coming, I was still surprised but he hat it coming as soon as he dishonored his marriage proposal.
Well yeah, but that is what i mean with a well written plot point, it doesn't just happen for shock value, out of the blue. GRRM sets his stuff up which makes it more satisfying when it happens, characters move the plot and not the other way around.
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The red wedding seemed pretty out of the blue at the time. I would also argue that it does happen for a bit of shock value and may be one of the weakest aspects of the books because of how saps the story of a lot of momentum. The show manages to keep it going, mostly by tamping down on a lot of GRRM's need to add more characters.
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On April 25 2019 01:44 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2019 00:52 Velr wrote:
Imho Rob had it coming, I was still surprised but he hat it coming as soon as he dishonored his marriage proposal. Well yeah, but that is what i mean with a well written plot point, it doesn't just happen for shock value, out of the blue. GRRM sets his stuff up which makes it more satisfying when it happens, characters move the plot and not the other way around.
Martin himself said that he killed Ned and Robb because they were the obvious choices of heroes.
So he planned to kill them and then created the "plot"
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On April 25 2019 02:10 sharkie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2019 01:44 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 25 2019 00:52 Velr wrote:
Imho Rob had it coming, I was still surprised but he hat it coming as soon as he dishonored his marriage proposal. Well yeah, but that is what i mean with a well written plot point, it doesn't just happen for shock value, out of the blue. GRRM sets his stuff up which makes it more satisfying when it happens, characters move the plot and not the other way around. Martin himself said that he killed Ned and Robb because they were the obvious choices of heroes. So he planned to kill them and then created the "plot"
Yeah that is how writing works? I am not sure what your point is. As i said before, characters have narrative purpose and until they fulfill it they have to live. What matters is how it is executed, if it isn't just a totally random death which would be incredibly unsatisfying, if the death itself matters for future plotlines, if the decisions the characters make lead to these plotpoints.
You were saying that one could see it coming, and yeah one could maybe see it coming because it was naturally developed, there is foreshadowing, etc. Realistically i think one could never be entirely sure about any of these though, there were a lot of ways to go, martin likes to play with red herings as well.
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EPT
