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All book discussion in this thread is now allowed. |
So, i did an office Deathlist today, everybody watching the show would mark the chars that they thought would not survive the night, winner gets a prize.
As i picked only Littlefinger, i was very nervous for Jaime and then, when i saw Thormund and Berric on the wall, felt a bit cheated, but i will just pretend they are standing a meter of the newly created drop.
I think the episode wasn't terrible, they couldn't screw up the logistics and logics too much. The extra scenes between Tyrion and Cersei were a bit silly. Especially if she then still intends to break the deal, what's up with that. But the rest of Kings landing felt not quite as bad as last episode. The reunion talks were kinda okay and i think most of the scenes were well put together. The cast is good in the end. Still so much style over substance, oh well.
Winterfell was god awful as expected. It never made sense, "Now you see me" level of plottwists... No impact whatsoever. Theon felt pretty stupid as well. Guess that's one of the plotlines they will spend an hour on next season.
If you ignore the premise of the plot happening in this episode and shift the blame on the last ones, this was the best episode this season. 4 was pretty shitty until the battle happened which redeemed it.
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On August 29 2017 04:02 VHbb wrote:I just watched the "making of" the episode and my only comment is.. what kind of accent does Podrick has in real life ?? 
Someone post the Little Finger accent meme. Its really good. I can’t because phone.
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Cricketer12
United States14003 Posts
On August 29 2017 04:14 Broetchenholer wrote:
So, i did an office Deathlist today, everybody watching the show would mark the chars that they thought would not survive the night, winner gets a prize.
As i picked only Littlefinger, i was very nervous for Jaime and then, when i saw Thormund and Berric on the wall, felt a bit cheated, but i will just pretend they are standing a meter of the newly created drop.
I think the episode wasn't terrible, they couldn't screw up the logistics and logics too much. The extra scenes between Tyrion and Cersei were a bit silly. Especially if she then still intends to break the deal, what's up with that. But the rest of Kings landing felt not quite as bad as last episode. The reunion talks were kinda okay and i think most of the scenes were well put together. The cast is good in the end. Still so much style over substance, oh well.
Winterfell was god awful as expected. It never made sense, "Now you see me" level of plottwists... No impact whatsoever. Theon felt pretty stupid as well. Guess that's one of the plotlines they will spend an hour on next season.
If you ignore the premise of the plot happening in this episode and shift the blame on the last ones, this was the best episode this season. 4 was pretty shitty until the battle happened which redeemed it.
I've taken some time to think on it and I pretty much agree. The episode was far from horrid, but man winterfell was lame. I am curious as to what Jaime intends to do. Does he catch up with the others, does he convince the red cloaks to help, does he free edmure, does he warn jon of cersei's betrayal? There are so many things for him to do.
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I lost track of where is the red woman (the priestess who resurrected Jon)?
If she back to beyond the sea, and out of the plot, or does she have a role to play?
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On August 29 2017 04:30 VHbb wrote:
I lost track of where is the red woman (the priestess who resurrected Jon)?
If she back to beyond the sea, and out of the plot, or does she have a role to play?
I think her story is over. She said she was leaving Westerose, but would return one more time to die. Honestly, I hope they don’t bring her back. I like the idea that her entire story isn’t confined to arc of this show.
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Melissandre told Varys she's going back to Essos.
On August 29 2017 04:23 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2017 04:14 Broetchenholer wrote:
So, i did an office Deathlist today, everybody watching the show would mark the chars that they thought would not survive the night, winner gets a prize.
As i picked only Littlefinger, i was very nervous for Jaime and then, when i saw Thormund and Berric on the wall, felt a bit cheated, but i will just pretend they are standing a meter of the newly created drop.
I think the episode wasn't terrible, they couldn't screw up the logistics and logics too much. The extra scenes between Tyrion and Cersei were a bit silly. Especially if she then still intends to break the deal, what's up with that. But the rest of Kings landing felt not quite as bad as last episode. The reunion talks were kinda okay and i think most of the scenes were well put together. The cast is good in the end. Still so much style over substance, oh well.
Winterfell was god awful as expected. It never made sense, "Now you see me" level of plottwists... No impact whatsoever. Theon felt pretty stupid as well. Guess that's one of the plotlines they will spend an hour on next season.
If you ignore the premise of the plot happening in this episode and shift the blame on the last ones, this was the best episode this season. 4 was pretty shitty until the battle happened which redeemed it. I've taken some time to think on it and I pretty much agree. The episode was far from horrid, but man winterfell was lame. I am curious as to what Jaime intends to do. Does he catch up with the others, does he convince the red cloaks to help, does he free edmure, does he warn jon of cersei's betrayal? There are so many things for him to do.
He doesn't need to warn Jon, Cersei's betrayal will be apparent when her army won't march North as she promised. I think Jaime won't bring anyone with himself (maybe excluding Bronn) and will just join Dany's team as an adviser and elite warrior. Bronn coming would make no sense but it wouldn't be the first time the writers gave us something like that.
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On August 29 2017 01:19 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Maybe to keep Elia and the children "safe" ? I mean if everybody would have known about it right there the dornish would have been quite angry.
Though not telling the north that Lyanna wasn't really abducted started the war to begin with. There is still something missing here, i don't think that the show will give us more though. The books might (they will come out, believe!)
The books already laid out the reasoning for the war. The series is based on medieval times where arranged marriages were the norm. Even if Lyanna willingly married Rhaegar, it would still cause problems because she was already betrothed to Robert. And the war was caused by how the mad king dealt with the Starks and Baratheons after they raised objections to what Rhaegar did. It wasn't just caused by what they thought Rhaegar did.
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On August 29 2017 04:23 Cricketer12 wrote:
I've taken some time to think on it and I pretty much agree. The episode was far from horrid, but man winterfell was lame. I am curious as to what Jaime intends to do. Does he catch up with the others, does he convince the red cloaks to help, does he free edmure, does he warn jon of cersei's betrayal? There are so many things for him to do.
To be honest, you should've seen that coming from the previous episode. This was handled like this because they've written an end to Littlefinger and I guess they tried the "The student becomes the master" trope. It was boring, but it was necessary to finally eliminate the last deceptive obstacle from the Starks that has been plaguing them since S1. It was a cathartic moment, done in Northern fashion.
Why was the Cersei & Tyrion dialogue horrible? To me only the "So kill me" moment was silly. But then Jaime does it too, so it kind of shows they are more connected as brothers still even after being so long apart.
And again, the criticism of style over substance is symptomatic of the all the characters arcs converging. When you have 20+ characters all doing their different thing all facing their own difficulties you get substance, because they offer possibility to let them intertwine in interesting ways. When you literally have 3 great arcs left to show and everyone is together it's going to become a bit more flat. It's all building to the epic stuff now, nearly all of the small petty intrigue is gone, wich lleft with Cersei blowing up the Sept.
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what are the odds Tyrion will end up backstabbing Danny ? They cut his conversation with Cersei after he found out shes pregnant i wonder if they made some kind of deal there
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I don't think Tyrion cares any longer and he was just being nice to talk her into being chill.
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On August 29 2017 04:49 kongoline wrote:
what are the odds Tyrion will end up backstabbing Danny ? They cut his conversation with Cersei after he found out shes pregnant i wonder what happened after that
Why does Dany even need Tyrion. He has basically screwed up everything (Mereen, the invasion, Cersai truce).
All of the allies that Dany could potentially have in Westeros have already either declared for her or been taken out so she doesn't need a negotiator.
Tyrion is pretty much a huge bad luck charm. Think about it. Tyrion goes to winterfell / the vale -> this leads to the war. Tyrion goes to King's Landing -> essentially loses to Stannis and then kills his father. Tyrion goes to Mereen -> releases a cult and flames the fires of rebellion. Tyrion joins Dany -> loses Dorne, the Reach and the Iron Islands.
I used to like him when he was a clever smart ass but now he's turned into a moralfag that fails at everything.
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On August 29 2017 04:43 andrewlt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2017 01:19 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Maybe to keep Elia and the children "safe" ? I mean if everybody would have known about it right there the dornish would have been quite angry.
Though not telling the north that Lyanna wasn't really abducted started the war to begin with. There is still something missing here, i don't think that the show will give us more though. The books might (they will come out, believe!) The books already laid out the reasoning for the war. The series is based on medieval times where arranged marriages were the norm. Even if Lyanna willingly married Rhaegar, it would still cause problems because she was already betrothed to Robert. And the war was caused by how the mad king dealt with the Starks and Baratheons after they raised objections to what Rhaegar did. It wasn't just caused by what they thought Rhaegar did.
Well i think them thinking Rhaegar abducted Lyanna was kinda important. They went to Kingslanding and then died there because of it. If Lyanna would have told them "hey i am fine" there at least would have been no reason for that.
I agree though that Robert wouldn't have been happy about that either, still different though
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Tyrion keeps Dany in check.
Cersei still is a great threat, no matter how you look at it
Being outsmarted by his brother isn't on him per se. It would be difficult to predict a move like that.
Dorne and the smaller fleet of the Iron Islanders were not on him imo. That was an Euron surprise move.
He's growing up and still has his snarky remarks now and then. Maybe you should try to come to terms with character development.
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On August 29 2017 05:04 Hyperbola wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2017 04:49 kongoline wrote:
what are the odds Tyrion will end up backstabbing Danny ? They cut his conversation with Cersei after he found out shes pregnant i wonder what happened after that Why does Dany even need Tyrion. He has basically screwed up everything (Mereen, the invasion, Cersai truce). All of the allies that Dany could potentially have in Westeros have already either declared for her or been taken out so she doesn't need a negotiator. Tyrion is pretty much a huge bad luck charm. Think about it. Tyrion goes to winterfell / the vale -> this leads to the war. Tyrion goes to King's Landing -> essentially loses to Stannis and then kills his father. Tyrion goes to Mereen -> releases a cult and flames the fires of rebellion. Tyrion joins Dany -> loses Dorne, the Reach and the Iron Islands. I used to like him when he was a clever smart ass but now he's turned into a moralfag that fails at everything.
Tyrion’s thing is that he reign’s in Dany’s worst impulses. Her desire to murder everyone in her path and make them swear to her. He has provided her with reasonable advise(like not burn all the boats, just burn one and make them all surrender).
If you noticed during the lead up to the big talk, most of these characters don’t want to be at war any more. They are tired of it, or simply don’t have the people on the other side enough to want to kill them. I really do hope the next season focuses on that, the desire to find peace without having to murder everyone.
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This episode just cemented this show being total shit. I have 3 evidences for this:
1. The scene with Jaime walking away from Cersei. If Clegane killed Jaime at that point, I'd declare this show being amazing again. Imagine the contrast it would create between a scene where Tyrion ask for execution, but is denied (even though viewer expected Cersei to say yes) and a scene where Jaime did the same, but this time Cersei says yes (even though viewer expects No). Imagine the emotion this scene would invoke, Jaime being cut down, Cersei becoming true villan of the show (because, let's face it, NK is complete garbage of a villan).
Compare this with the LF death - who gave a shit about him dying? No one, because they didn't manage to establish an emotional conection between him and the viewer. If the Jaime died, that would be a completely different case. But they are too afraid to kill of major characters at this point.
2. The scene with Theon. Complete and utter Hollywood shit. You are telling me Reek can take 6 punches from a guy twice his weight, but he knocks him out with one punch? And his secret strat was getting punched in a ball-less area? I can imagine rest of the Greyjoys being delighted seeing their new leader has no cock and balls.
3. The fact that without the dragon, NK and his troops wouldn't be able to cross the wall. So, we are supposed to believe his strategy was to bait the dragons and get one?
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if jamie died i would be so mad, hes the only character i like atm
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On August 29 2017 04:43 Uldridge wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2017 04:23 Cricketer12 wrote:
I've taken some time to think on it and I pretty much agree. The episode was far from horrid, but man winterfell was lame. I am curious as to what Jaime intends to do. Does he catch up with the others, does he convince the red cloaks to help, does he free edmure, does he warn jon of cersei's betrayal? There are so many things for him to do. To be honest, you should've seen that coming from the previous episode. This was handled like this because they've written an end to Littlefinger and I guess they tried the "The student becomes the master" trope. It was boring, but it was necessary to finally eliminate the last deceptive obstacle from the Starks that has been plaguing them since S1. It was a cathartic moment, done in Northern fashion. Why was the Cersei & Tyrion dialogue horrible? To me only the "So kill me" moment was silly. But then Jaime does it too, so it kind of shows they are more connected as brothers still even after being so long apart. And again, the criticism of style over substance is symptomatic of the all the characters arcs converging. When you have 20+ characters all doing their different thing all facing their own difficulties you get substance, because they offer possibility to let them intertwine in interesting ways. When you literally have 3 great arcs left to show and everyone is together it's going to become a bit more flat. It's all building to the epic stuff now, nearly all of the small petty intrigue is gone, wich lleft with Cersei blowing up the Sept.
Yes, Littlefinger was spelled out perfectly fine, i don't claim huge intellect for picking him  The way it went with the fake trial to suddenly talk about Littlefinger was so pointless though. They could have instead showed us how they created the alliance with the vale lords so that killing Petyr off would not matter and then have him officially executed. But no, cheap deceptions to get the viewers fear for arya...
Th Cersei and Tyrion conversation was not bad, just the way it was done. Cersei asks for something that could be arranged, is denied, storms off at once. Then Tyrion has to go into the lioness' den and do basically no convincing at all for her to agree only to then show that she was intending to betray them anyway. All for creating extra tension.
I actally thought Jaime was toast. When he started to ride away and put on the glove, it looked to me as if the glove hat a hole in it that mended by itself. And i thought, they show him ride off in the afterlife. The whole city getting dark and grey. It took me a time to understand it was snow and he was fine. But i thought they actually had balls for a second and was upset because Jaime is one of the few characters i actually still care for.
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On August 29 2017 05:16 kongoline wrote:
if jamie died i would be so mad, hes the only character i like atm
Agreed. I don’t come to this show for cheap deaths of characters simply for shock value. The red wedding had purpose and ended characters story lines. But is also informed other characters actions going forward. Jamie dying would have done nothing but been a cheap shock to the audience.
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On August 29 2017 05:14 Odoakar wrote:
1. The scene with Jaime walking away from Cersei. If Clegane killed Jaime at that point, I'd declare this show being amazing again. Imagine the contrast it would create between a scene where Tyrion ask for execution, but is denied (even though viewer expected Cersei to say yes) and a scene where Jaime did the same, but this time Cersei says yes (even though viewer expects No). Imagine the emotion this scene would invoke, Jaime being cut down, Cersei becoming true villan of the show (because, let's face it, NK is complete garbage of a villan).
Compare this with the LF death - who gave a shit about him dying? No one, because they didn't manage to establish an emotional conection between him and the viewer. If the Jaime died, that would be a completely different case. But they are too afraid to kill of major characters at this point.
If you have payed attention, Cersei doesn't mercilessly slaughter her family. She's proven herself as the true villain by blowing up the faith and making sure her son killed himself.
People weren't supposed to give a shit about LFs death. He's deceived and dallied around the entirety of the show, he was a "player" and someone that prided himself on being cunning. He underestimated Sansa and Arya and he died pathetically like he deserved to die. It was redemption for the Starks. The fact that you miss all this subtext make me feel like your "evidence" isn't evidence at all.
2. The scene with Theon. Complete and utter Hollywood shit. You are telling me Reek can take 6 punches from a guy twice his weight, but he knocks him out with one punch? And his secret strat was getting punched in a ball-less area? I can imagine rest of the Greyjoys being delighted seeing their new leader has no cock and balls.
Through all the shit Theon's been he finally gets his redemption arc, which was falsely set up last season. And they do it by establishing that he literally has no balls left and was able to use it as a strength. I think you also forget what pure adrenaline and willpower can do. It was a bit silly that the fight turned when he started to try to knee him in the balls, but whatever, for whatever happened, it might turn him into the guy with the Iron Balls. Theon "Iron Balls" Greyjoy.
3. The fact that without the dragon, NK and his troops wouldn't be able to cross the wall. So, we are supposed to believe his strategy was to bait the dragons and get one?
How the fuck do you know that? They'd just be slowed down. The minions can cut that shit up? They can dig? The dragon was just a massive gift to make it all easier.
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On August 29 2017 05:25 Broetchenholer wrote:Yes, Littlefinger was spelled out perfectly fine, i don't claim huge intellect for picking him The way it went with the fake trial to suddenly talk about Littlefinger was so pointless though. They could have instead showed us how they created the alliance with the vale lords so that killing Petyr off would not matter and then have him officially executed. But no, cheap deceptions to get the viewers fear for arya...
I think this was more to make the viewer think that LF was still able to have any influence on Sansa. But she learned from the schemer and schemed in the dark herself. That entire situation was just to show his overconfidence. It didn't really feel like hubris, but whatever. I don't think it was necessary to show that sequence, because it would be the same anyway. No one likes LF, he just wormed his way into importance, so no one will give a fuck if they can find a way to get rid of him imo.
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On August 29 2017 05:34 Uldridge wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2017 05:14 Odoakar wrote:
1. The scene with Jaime walking away from Cersei. If Clegane killed Jaime at that point, I'd declare this show being amazing again. Imagine the contrast it would create between a scene where Tyrion ask for execution, but is denied (even though viewer expected Cersei to say yes) and a scene where Jaime did the same, but this time Cersei says yes (even though viewer expects No). Imagine the emotion this scene would invoke, Jaime being cut down, Cersei becoming true villan of the show (because, let's face it, NK is complete garbage of a villan).
Compare this with the LF death - who gave a shit about him dying? No one, because they didn't manage to establish an emotional conection between him and the viewer. If the Jaime died, that would be a completely different case. But they are too afraid to kill of major characters at this point. If you have payed attention, Cersei doesn't mercilessly slaughter her family. She's proven herself as the true villain by blowing up the faith and making sure her son killed himself. People weren't supposed to give a shit about LFs death. He's deceived and dallied around the entirety of the show, he was a "player" and someone that prided himself on being cunning. He underestimated Sansa and Arya and he died pathetically like he deserved to die. It was redemption for the Starks. The fact that you miss all this subtext make me feel like your "evidence" isn't evidence at all.
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So why setup this dramatic scene with LF if you know if won't mean anything? What is the point of going to all those lenghts these past 3 episode to create something that is supposed to be dramatic, but you admit is not, and is just a filler to facilitate Stark redemption?
And regarding Cersei, we are going towards the end of the show. All the actions so far she's been doing have been predicted episodes in advanced. We all knew she'd never accept Dany's proposal and would look for opportunity to betray her. That's why I felt nothing when they 'revealed' she still plans to betray them. But that scene with Jaime sets up 'them or us' scenario. Either you are with me or you are enemy. That's what Cersei is. And she can't accept to some point this from Tyrion and tolerate it. But from Jaime? If at that point she realised Jaime is 'gone' and will not be what she wanted him to be, it would be perfectly in her character to see him not as Lannister anymore, but as an enemy.
THe fact you can't look past what the show is showing you, makes me feel you don't know shit about what makes a good show.
Also, regarding NK. Nothing at this point they showed us in past 6 seasons hints at NK having powers over magic that was put into the wall. We know wights can't go though the wall (this was book confirmed, but I also think in the show as well), due to the magic CotF put into the wall. We all expect the NK to have either inate power or some artifact of power that would bring down the wall. But he didn't. He gambled on getting a free dragon.
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EPT
