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All book discussion in this thread is now allowed. |
On August 04 2017 03:43 Broetchenholer wrote:
I am very sorry that you guys can't get enough reinforcement of your opinions in this thread because that's what it's all about right? You come here, you want to talk about how awesome the show was but then there are more people here that didn't think it was 10/10 and that must be super hard. We want to discuss the show as well and we have the same right to get reinforcement of our value as a person due to our opinion being the same as others. If there are 8 out of ten people in this thread saying that the show is still entertaining but now has bad writing that pisses people off, maybe that is just what it is. Maybe we have to split the thread into to, one with criticism allowed and one for the people that think they are the majority but only complain about people not sharing their opinion.
really weird reaction to being called nit picky and whiny. and also complaining about people complaining about complaints. complaintception.
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On August 04 2017 03:36 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2017 03:19 Plansix wrote:
I love that of all the tropes of fantasy that Martin avoided, the magical metal for cool swords that they forgot how to make still made it through. It was just to fun to pass up dope swords that don’t break and get cool names. Martin rarely avoids tropes, he just does different things with them
Agreed. And he even does interesting thing with the swords. The series has a theme around parents impact on their children and the named swords carry that heritage and weight. Ed Stark’s sword being split into two, one carried by the knight that would save his daughter. And they are fun ways to rely history, rather than just plot dump.
On August 04 2017 03:49 Logo wrote:
I like how Valayrian steel is basically just Damascus steel with only a singular magical property of being able to kill wights (so far?). It's still the trope of magical steel and what not, but I like that it's pretty rooted still and that smiths can reforge the weapons and all that. While the blades are highly prized and stuff they always seem more like a status symbol than some incredible edge in battle which I appreciate.
It doesn’t age or degrade if cared for. It creates the ability to have multi generational swords that gives the characters the ability to talk about their parents without it being forced. As sort of contrived narrative devices go, it is a fun one.
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I mean the concept of avoidng tropes is really weird to begin with, it's really hard to avoid things which were done before. What's way more important is to do interesting things with it.
At this point even things which were done to avoid tropes became tropes 
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Tropes are all about execution in the story. They just happen to be most noticeable when they are poorly executed. The concept of a cool sword made of rare metal has not real value attached to it without the context of the story.
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The equivalent would be we didn't see Robb marry someone else and the Red Wedding omitted the words "The Lannisters send their regards" and we weren't told about the forged alliance. It would just be something that happens that's sort of believable but is devoid of anything that grounds it as a reasonable action rather than just something to make the plot have something happen.
I guess it would be comparable to the Freys breaking the alliance for no good reason. We need to feel that we can understand relate to the actions taken by the characters. And when Robb Stark wanted to marry his love rather than what made sense strategically, we could emphasize with him.
But we could also understand (at least in hindsight) the consequences that decision had. But the decisions post season 4 that leads to major tactical/strategiacal decisions or new alliances are not properl explained/to do no make sense
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United States44291 Posts
We've got 10 episodes left and Hound is heading north. Cleganebowl cancelled?
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On August 04 2017 06:37 KwarK wrote:
We've got 10 episodes left and Hound is heading north. Cleganebowl cancelled?
Delayed. He has to kill dem white walkers first. It would be to good for the plot not to have that battle.
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I am one of the people who never thought cleganebowl is gonna happen (in the books). The show might still do it though because the theory is really popular and it would be fanservice.
That being said, i don't see how they would make it happen tbh.
I wonder about Bran's role in the endgame. Simply knowing important things?
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On August 04 2017 00:35 Plansix wrote:People need to get away from the valid vs invalid criticism argument. This is the core problem with these discussions. This isn’t math, we are not trying to prove the other side is wrong. You don’t disprove someone’s critique. And conversely, saying the same critique over and over doesn’t make it more valid. The lack of logistics and contexts to the major battles is a change from the previous seasons and does alter the tone of the series. It removes some of the topography from the world that was featured in previous seasons and added to the lived in feel of the series. I miss it, but understand why it isn’t a feature in these later seasons where the major characters are clashing with massive forces. It also makes tracking the time passed between scenes more challenging and can lead to narrative confusion. Show nested quote +On August 04 2017 00:31 Logo wrote:On August 04 2017 00:20 Plansix wrote:On August 04 2017 00:11 Logo wrote:On August 04 2017 00:07 Plansix wrote:On August 03 2017 23:51 Logo wrote:On August 03 2017 10:41 Plansix wrote:On August 03 2017 10:29 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I realize that it's a joke, but your joke misses the point My joke is on point, it isn't my fault your sense of humor is broken. Don't get me started on the Unsullied's comically large shield and renaissance fair armor with no equipment and one spear each. Only one tiny spear and huge shield. TBH I don't get the point; the point that sticks out would be that you can't tell the difference between things that are illogical for convenience or cinematic purposes and things that are illogical or character inconsistent that drive the plot. Because those are subjective. Just because a lot of people in the thread say “that is so out of character, look at my logic and reason” doesn’t make the statement less subjective. Look at the discussion about the secret entrance to the sewer. People say it is out of character for Tyrion to build it, that he wanted to please his father. But his father also didn’t approve of whoring, so why did Tyrion do that at all? Maybe he designed the fortress and also secretly wanted to screw over his father? Maybe that is why he hatched the terrible plan to attack the Rock in the first place, for the joy of knowing his father’s castle would be sacked? You can argue both sides of this and they can both be true, because that is how motivation works. It's subjective if the complaint is valid, but that doesn't mean it's subjective if the complaint is of the same nature as wearing a hat or not wearing a hat. Even if the complaint isn't a good one or people disagree, it's still a complaint over Tyrions character which is relevant to the story where hats are just... not. But it is all the same thing. Critique isn’t valid or invalid. That isn’t how critique works. The choice for the characters not to wear hats is an artistic one. They are forgoing realism for imagery. They like the way the characters look in full costume, like a stage play. The choice of how to show or not show a battle is the same thing, artistic. Why show another siege when we really just want to see the Queen of Thorns chug wine and deliver one last dagger on the way out? Also artistic. Leaving the motivations of all gods and other worldly things unclear is also part of that, even if they are not consistent. And leaving out the specific logistics of fleets and armies. If people want to critique creative works, they can’t just limit it to the aspects they think logic applies and that other stuff doesn’t matter. I can't really parse this, it's just a ridiculously reductive way to think about everything in some weird attempt to dismiss all criticism and hand waves over the part of your position that's actually difficult for you to defend. People may have complained about not showing battles or wanting to see more of this or that which is fine, and sure is like your hat example, but that's again not the same as using an inconsistency to drive the plot (say Euron knowing Dany's actions before she's decided on them herself). Or he set out to try and capture the folks from Dorne and found out they were on the fleet. That was his plan all along. We don’t really know where the Iron Fleet was and that is a big of a narrative hole. But I also never assumed he was dragging it around with him everywhere he went. If that is a big problem for you, that is fine. I don’t need them to explain to me exactly how he found them, since I can think of ten different ways it happened in my head and they are seem fine to me.
For me, the at-times lack of dialogue between characters and the resulting feeling of a somewhat rushed scene alters the tone too. Example being Bran and Sansa this week. They haven't seen each other in years and that's all they say to each other? I get that he weirded her out but giving us more than that short exchange would have been nice. They should have a lot more to say not just cut to the heart of what will advance the plot (prob b/c time crunch).
As for the battle scenes, ya, the way I figure them not showing the actual battle is that they are/were just saving the budget for the later episodes of this season. Same reason why so many less extras in scenes, like at Dragonstone (looks like 20 dothraki at most 8D ), where only the main actors are in the scenes and you get less of that lived-in feel like you said.
As for the last part, the Iron Fleet was just at King's Landing, which is like 2 hours (or close at least) away from Dragonstone, so I think they wanted us to just fill in the holes knowing that. In the next episode we find out that Cersei already knows that Dany and the Dothraki are in Dragonstone/getting to ready to attack. So it isn't out of the question to think that Euron doesn't have this information as well. With the massive fleet (dothraki/unsullied) they were transporting from the other side of the world, it's not really possible for them to do it without noone seeing them. Informants, spies, w/e have you, surely would have heard of the movement. The main advantage the Lannisters have is that they are fighting in their own, established lands. Dany and crew are attacking from the outside without anyone on the inside giving intel, or scouting enemy activity.
With that said, Tyrion is not looking good as master of war. To his credit, it's unclear if he knows that Casterly Rock doesn't have gold anymore and thus not an important piece to attack (other than a retreat destination for Cersei), but he is also acting emotionally I think. It is where he grew up after all and has a special significance to him. Jorah going back to Dany will have a positive impact on her war plans as well as have an effect on other big plot pieces (jon's sword...he is Lyanna's uncle and a Northener after all...and he knows Sam now too).
On August 04 2017 01:08 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2017 01:02 Plansix wrote:
The issue with Olenna staying is interesting. But she is an old lady who played out the game, lost most all of her children and now her home. I never really thought she would leave. It seems perfectly in character for her to stay to the bitter end. The rest of how people knew which army would go where seems pretty easy to explain as both sides being aware of the valuable assets in the war. The iron fleet, or part of it, was there to defend the Rock. But then Jamie had the idea of sending them away and letting it fall, so he could trap the army there. I sort of accept that the game of chess is happening, even if I don’t see all the pieces moving. But the timing of that doesn't work since the Iron Fleet was first at King's Landing then around the shores of Dorne while the Unsullied were already sailing out. When Euron initially left King's Landing he wasn't at all trusted by Cersei so it makes no sense at that point to divulge important military information to him. Like there's no time in the series of events where someone like Jaime can say "oh by the way Euron, Dany is going to Casterly Rock can you go sink her ships?" Jaime's actions make sense to me by comparison. I can easily buy that with the time and advantage of communicating by ravens he could piece together Dany's potential targeting of Casterly Rock and move the troops away. And if it's not worth much militarily or financially there's little risk by leaving just a small garrison there. If no one attacks it then no one attacks it and no big loss. Though it's weird no one seems concerned with defending King's Landing like they all know Dany isn't going to attack there. Olenna I agree it makes sense with her character for her to not retreat, in this case I wish they just acknowledged it a bit better. Even something simple as her cursing the Tarlys loyalty briefly would have been sufficient to me to cement that sequence of events. But it's like a fleeting problem in isolation; I think complaints about that part only have bite because of what's also happened with Euron and Dorne. A great example in the other direction, and a plot point I really like is John/Davos talking to Dany. When they're trying to hype of Johns credentials it's like "Why the hell don't you mention that you've died then come back to life!?". Then Davos does mention it it's clearly something John doesn't want brought up. Then suddenly this weird inconsistency isn't one and it is cemented in a ton of intrigue and character development and it becomes one of my favorite bits of the last episode instead of a glaring omission. Even Bran's weird responses to Sansa felt cemented because of his detachment and slipping grip of reality.
The way I saw it Euron knew about Casterly Rock by torturing/questioning people they captured/killed and were in the know (maybe even Yara?). Tyrion and Varys definitely know that Cersei knows about the oncoming attack so her letting him know is also a possibility but I think him being the one to tell her is also a possibility bc of what I just said.
Plus other ppl spotting their fleet would also travel by word of mouth. In any case(I also buy your idea on Jaime piecing it together on your next post ), I don't think they just got lucky by sending their fleet around the continent like you originally said (it is close to their home too).
As for them traveling the seas so fast, ya, I can see the questions/amusement (even considering they are the best sailors in this world). Do keep in mind that the Iron Islands are very close to Casterly Rock too (but I think they make it seem like one of the ships is Euron's?).
On August 04 2017 03:49 Logo wrote:
I like how Valayrian steel is basically just Damascus steel with only a singular magical property of being able to kill wights (so far?). It's still the trope of magical steel and what not, but I like that it's pretty rooted still and that smiths can reforge the weapons and all that. While the blades are highly prized and stuff they always seem more like a status symbol than some incredible edge in battle which I appreciate.
They do also mention in a previous season that there are only 4 (or was it 5?) blacksmiths in the kingdom (world?) that know how to work with Valyrian Steel. And ya they are definitely expensive/valuable but agree that most of all status symbols.
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Cleganebowl does seem like it would be a fan service at this point. I don't see how they make it work either.
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On August 04 2017 06:37 KwarK wrote:
We've got 10 episodes left and Hound is heading north. Cleganebowl cancelled?
The Hound will scout up north and then hit the hearthstone to get back to the wall or Winterfell and realize that he never rebound it after leaving King's landing and end up there. Cleganebowl back on. Just like Euron never rebound his hearthstone from the Iron Isles and was able to quickly head over to Casterly Rock from there.
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What if Cersi leaves kingslanding after the defeat that is going to happen? What if she is forced to flee with the undead mountain?
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Why does Cercei keeping cutting her hair? She looks so bad with it tbh. Its been at least 2-3 months of time lapse since ep 1.
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On August 04 2017 18:35 Emnjay808 wrote:
Why does Cercei keeping cutting her hair? She looks so bad with it tbh. Its been at least 2-3 months of time lapse since ep 1.
No it's just been a few days. Moving around doesn't take that long when you can teleport.
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Gonna make the most minimal spoiler (you don't really risk anything by seeing it - just an interesting fact)
+ Show Spoiler + The below quote gets proving incorrect in the next episode. Good we have people like Plansix in here to defend the writing for the sake of defending the writing while making "alternative facts" in the proces and generally misunderstanding the criticism: Its been years of protracted war. There are no armies worth talking about to buy. That is the point of the series, that the all the great houses are slowly being bled dry of what makes them great.
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France7248 Posts
seems episode 4 was leaked
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On August 04 2017 18:35 Emnjay808 wrote:
Why does Cercei keeping cutting her hair? She looks so bad with it tbh. Its been at least 2-3 months of time lapse since ep 1.
They don’t shoot the scenes chronological order, so changes in her hair would be very confusing. Or they would need to do all wigs all the time and have someone create the “wig timeline”.
On August 04 2017 20:41 Hider wrote:Gonna make the most minimal spoiler (you don't really risk anything by seeing it - just an interesting fact) + Show Spoiler + The below quote gets proving incorrect in the next episode. Good we have people like Plansix in here to defend the writing for the sake of defending the writing while making "alternative facts" in the proces and generally misunderstanding the criticism: Its been years of protracted war. There are no armies worth talking about to buy. That is the point of the series, that the all the great houses are slowly being bled dry of what makes them great.
As I said before, if those things bother you, that is totally fine and I respect that. They don’t bother me and I don’t view them as the huge narrative flaws you do. There is really no need for the passive aggressive shots at me specifically over a simple disagreement about the writing.
As for the quote: I happy to be proven incorrect about my assessment of a fictional TV show I watch for entertainment. My investment in being right on the subject was already pretty low.
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I like the season so far i have to say, watched epsiode 1-3 in a row today. Obviously teleporting is kinda meh but it does it's job to speed up the plot.
I like that the Lannisters are doing better again (even though i felt they have way more ressources,men e.g. than they are supposed to have from the state the kingdom was in).
I still don't get how every Sansa, Jon and Bran (Arya probably joining as well soon) manage to not trust each other at all and do super akward things. So when Bran is like "i can see the past, present and future" it is pretty obvious Sansa won't buy that. But instead of saying something reasonable he is like "hey remember the dress you had when you were forced to marry that sick Bolton Bastard before he raped you?"... Like, what the fuck Bran.
I have to say though i have some hope for Sansa left. So when Littlefinger will ask her "hey me and my 3 mates with the big knives want to meet Jon somewhere alone where no guards are present. Can you tell him to go to such a place and then tell me when he is there" she won't do that.
Or well at least i hope
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On August 05 2017 03:25 BlackCompany wrote:
I like the season so far i have to say, watched epsiode 1-3 in a row today. Obviously teleporting is kinda meh but it does it's job to speed up the plot.
I like that the Lannisters are doing better again (even though i felt they have way more ressources,men e.g. than they are supposed to have from the state the kingdom was in).
I still don't get how every Sansa, Jon and Bran (Arya probably joining as well soon) manage to not trust each other at all and do super akward things. So when Bran is like "i can see the past, present and future" it is pretty obvious Sansa won't buy that. But instead of saying something reasonable he is like "hey remember the dress you had when you were forced to marry that sick Bolton Bastard before he raped you?"... Like, what the fuck Bran.
Bran is pretty clearly losing touch with reality and becoming really detached from the world. I don't think it even registers to him he's being awkward or people might be confused or that it's important he speaks clearly. A side effect of his 'gift' it would seem.
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