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All book discussion in this thread is now allowed. |
On August 02 2017 02:43 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2017 02:19 VHbb wrote:So it took 3 episode this year for this thread to become the usual gathering of over-criticism: it makes it somehow not readable for someone who don't like to pick on all details and just enjoy some relaxing entertainment, but I can always talk about GoT somewhere else, rather than here... I for sure don't think the show is 100% accurate, or that it measure to the historical accuracy of.. real historical events !  But sometimes I wander if you consume all forms of entertainment with the same level of pickiness, are you really able to enjoy things? (tv shows, music, games, videogames, ...) I mean i still enjoy the show enough, it's not binary of either enjoying something or not enjoying it. It's a spectrum. I would simply enjoy it more if it was better written. I still enjoy the production values, the acting, and there are still good scenes. If i wouldn't enjoy it at all i wouldn't watch it. But yes being highly critical obviously makes it harder to enjoy things. At the same time i think that there is a lot of good entertainment out there so i don't feel the need to be ok with anything. Though i will be honest, maybe i wouldn't watch the show anymore if GRRM would have already released the last two books.
I think I'd enjoy the show more if GRRM *had* released the books. Part of what's annoying about the show now is it's not at the same level as the earlier seasons (still overall pretty good though) *and* these seasons are subbing in for the book and will fill in some of the major plot points of the books either explicitly or implicitly.
Fortunately there's still a lot in the books that will be exciting to read because the show didn't touch those things at all, but still we're 5 books/6 seasons in so anything that feels out of place now hurts because we've come this far already.
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8751 Posts
On August 02 2017 01:38 Hyperbola wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2017 01:29 Logo wrote:On August 02 2017 01:25 The_Red_Viper wrote:On August 02 2017 01:16 Logo wrote:Who says noone was spotting it? All of the things shown happen in a pretty large time frame. In the weeks it took the Unsullied fleet to reach Casterly Rock Lannisters can have marched their army to Highgarden, it is actually not that far. Heck they could even have left Casterly Rock just before the Unsullied arrived. There is still nothing the Unsullied could have done.
All it needs for that story to work is that the Unsullied were unaware of the Lannister army leaving while they were on their ships. Then Tarly army teams up with Lannisters and beats Highgarden. I think the more curious/improbable thing about the Highgarden siege is where was Highgarden's army (including their banner men) and why/how they were willing to take that fight instead of retreating to their allies towards the south. It could be totally rational, but we were denied the context to make it so. The problem with Euron's fleet movements is more how is he knowing where to go like you said? He sailed from King's Landing before Dany even knew what her own plan one and he has now managed to hunt down 2 separate fleets. There's no real reasonable way that he should have known as he sailed that the Unsullied would be heading towards Casterly Rock. It's possible he landed in some port (though ports where he was would be unfriendly being Dornish) and got information but again we aren't shown that. As best as viewers that we can put together Euron knew the Unsullied were sailing for Casterly Rock before the Unsullied knew they were sailing to Casterly Rock. It was bad enough when he caught out the Dornish before the Dornish knew where they would be going, but that at least can be explaining by getting lucky and prowling the waters between Westeroes and Essoes. To take the Unsullied he has to blindly travel around the entire continent. It all *could* be explained reasonably, but it's not and that's the problem with it. My problem with it is that it's just way too easy. They even described it as "I just followed the orders", i mean at that point you have to ask yourself why greyscale is a problem anywhere.
Also Sam finding all the important things right now is a nice coincidence, and i am sure there will be more still :/ Greyscale is uncommon in Westeroes, doubly so for the higher class of people. The only other character to get it got it from a traveling merchant. Combine that with the risk of getting infected yourself and the stigma around it, it seems relatively reasonable that people are unwilling to attempt treatment in Westeroes and reasonable the Citadel would sit on an obscure cure. You could argue people in Essoes should have figured out the cure already, but again I think the poor/rich divide there adequately colors the disease and they seem content to outcast people as Stone Men. I mean it's reasonable to say that the treatment is really dangerous, etc. But at the same time they show Sam, someone who has no experience with something like that whatsoever nail it 100% simply by "following the orders". Jorah is fine, doesn't even look that bad the day after, is allowed to leave, voilà. It just doesn't add up tbh. That there is a cure is ok to me, but the presentation of all of it was just extremely lazy and it seems to me that the greyscale thing was simply a waste of screentime and fake tension. It struck me that the procedure was straightforward, but the risk of self-contamination was high. So it seemed ok that Sam could do the procedure and then we're lead to believe he got lucky in not infecting himself. I think the lack of the procedure being used is mostly from stigma is what we're supposed to take away from it? That or because the person to discover it died from greyscale so there's a presumed risk that may not actually be there. I hear you on the complaints though. The last bit is definitely true though until we see more of Jorah. At the moment it mostly seems like they writers realized they made a mistake by giving Jorah greyscale, but it could fit nicely into the plot. It may be relevant that Jorah is in Westeroes, but not with Dany. The thing that bothers me is this: is curing Greyscale really as simple as cutting off the grey flesh and then using a herbal mixture to treat the skin under it? Seriously? You do realize how ridiculously replicable that is? That is something that the entirety of Essos could use to cure themselves. It would be as simple as: 1. Find out you have greyscale (oh no!). 2. Get that herbal mixture. 3. Tear off the skin on your arm. 4. Apply mixture. Nobody goes to Valyria because of the stone men. There are probably priceless artifacts scattered ALL AROUND. Valyrian steel, dragon eggs, whatever the hell else. All you need to do is go there, grab the shit, get out, cure yourself of Greyscale (if needed). It's not like the mixture is made with flakes of gold, otherwise Sam would not have been able to get it in the citadel so easily. This chemical is something they could manufacture and export to the world. There is certainly a market for it.
Pretty sure that it is that easy but it takes a few special characters to break the mold of the world they're raised in. Most people in Westeros are accustomed to a certain amount of selfishness and acceptance of the way things are. The Citadel arc is showing us that even the Maesters are this way. Look how easy it would've been for Sam to reason that he shouldn't have done it. I mean honestly he probably shouldn't have taken the risk, given how important his mission is. But Sam is one of those characters that sees someone in trouble, sees a solution, and just does it. Think of another student with no real significance in the world, he wouldn't attempt the procedure because expulsion is bad enough. The Maesters themselves don't do it because it's too risky -- not for the patients who are dying anyway, but for the person doing the procedure. It's just selfishness.
But the new Westeros is headed this way. Daenerys wants to break the wheel. People who don't value tradition and aren't so selfish are finding ways to survive now. Jon is now a Ned who actually survives and can change the world. Ned helped overthrow the Mad King which certainly changed the world but that was just more of the wheel spinning. Jon and Sam and Daenerys are part of the new paradigm and the story at the Citadel is a perfect mini-example of that. It even starts with that long montage of showing us the same shitty cycle over and over. Sam endures it but he's instantly willing to do something extremely out of the ordinary, breaking the cycle, when the opportunity presents itself.
There's a myriad of shitty and stupid things that are the norm in Westeros and when you ask why they're that way, it's because bad people are selfish or because good people are required to sacrifice too much to do what's right. Or because people just accept the way things are, accept their fate and lot in life.
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On August 02 2017 02:46 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2017 02:43 The_Red_Viper wrote:On August 02 2017 02:19 VHbb wrote:So it took 3 episode this year for this thread to become the usual gathering of over-criticism: it makes it somehow not readable for someone who don't like to pick on all details and just enjoy some relaxing entertainment, but I can always talk about GoT somewhere else, rather than here... I for sure don't think the show is 100% accurate, or that it measure to the historical accuracy of.. real historical events ! But sometimes I wander if you consume all forms of entertainment with the same level of pickiness, are you really able to enjoy things? (tv shows, music, games, videogames, ...) I mean i still enjoy the show enough, it's not binary of either enjoying something or not enjoying it. It's a spectrum. I would simply enjoy it more if it was better written. I still enjoy the production values, the acting, and there are still good scenes. If i wouldn't enjoy it at all i wouldn't watch it. But yes being highly critical obviously makes it harder to enjoy things. At the same time i think that there is a lot of good entertainment out there so i don't feel the need to be ok with anything. Though i will be honest, maybe i wouldn't watch the show anymore if GRRM would have already released the last two books. I think I'd enjoy the show more if GRRM *had* released the books. Part of what's annoying about the show now is it's not at the same level as the earlier seasons (still overall pretty good though) *and* these seasons are subbing in for the book and will fill in some of the major plot points of the books either explicitly or implicitly. Fortunately there's still a lot in the books that will be exciting to read because the show didn't touch those things at all, but still we're 5 books/6 seasons in so anything that feels out of place now hurts because we've come this far already.
Ok that is a good point, the quality of the show might be higher if they could simply adapt it. Though i wouldn't be sure because they cut a lot out of the books, dorne, (f)Aegon, etc.
Just saying if we assume that the show would be similar to what it is now i probably wouldn't watch it anymore if i already had read the last two books. Though that's just a feeling i have right now, because tbh i really enjoy to watch dragons flying around and stuff 
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United States43988 Posts
On August 02 2017 01:08 Redox wrote:Sry I am gonna be a little lazy and just repeat some stuff. about Lannister / Tarly surpsingly attacking Highgarden: Show nested quote +On July 31 2017 21:47 Shock710 wrote:
How does jamie order the march of a ton of lanister forces from castely rock all the way to highgarden with no one spotting it. Wasnt Rob's version on a smaller and closer scale. Who says noone was spotting it? All of the things shown happen in a pretty large time frame. In the weeks it took the Unsullied fleet to reach Casterly Rock Lannisters can have marched their army to Highgarden, it is actually not that far. Heck they could even have left Casterly Rock just before the Unsullied arrived. There is still nothing the Unsullied could have done. All it needs for that story to work is that the Unsullied were unaware of the Lannister army leaving while they were on their ships. Then Tarly army teams up with Lannisters and beats Highgarden. Euron fleet followed Unsullied fleet, taking the same route, destroys the ships. Dont see a problem there either. You can still argue that Jamie should not be so quick to meet up with the army as he came from from KL that is a little farther away. But it it is still a rather mild case of teleporting since we dont know the time frame of anything. about Tyrion's secret passage: Show nested quote +On August 01 2017 00:46 KwarK wrote:On July 31 2017 21:02 Gorsameth wrote:
I don't think Tyrions secret door undermines his character at all. He can build an amazing sewer system (and he eludes that he did in a conversation with Varys) while also building in a secret passage for himself.
We know his disregard for his fathers orders when it comes to his vices of drink and whores. Do we? So Tyrion just didn't give a shit what Tywin thought of him and halfassed everything? Feels like you're watching a different show to me. I dont get your point at all. What is half-assed about having some secret passage added? Seems to me good forward thinking and totally what I would expect of Tyrion..
One and a Half Men, starring Tywin and Tyrion.
*Tyrion is slouching in a chair, drinking*
*Enter Tywin*
Tywin:
I see you're drunk again.
*audience laughs*
Aren't you meant to be working on fixing the sewers? We had to evacuate half the castle after your curry incident last month.
*audience laughs* Tyrion:
All finished dad. The kitchens are making me another goat vindaloo as we speak. These sewers could handle anything, which is more than can be said for the walls.
*winks* Tywin:
I designed those walls myself. They're perfect. Tyrion:
That's what you think.
*audience laughs* Tywin:
Oh you rogue. What did you do to my walls? Did you accidentally weaken a section of them while expanding the sewers? Tyrion:
Nope. Guess again. I'll give you a hint. I did what I did on purpose.
*audience laughs* Tywin:
Did you take stone from the walls to save time building the sewers? Tyrion:
Damn, wish I'd thought of that, that would have been a real time saver.
*audience laughs*
Guess again. Tywin:
I give up, what did you do? Tyrion:
I added a cool new way to get into the castle so people can go around the wall instead of that boring old gate. Tywin:
*sighs*
*audience laughs*
Tyrion, we want people to have to go through the gate so we can stop people we don't like from getting into the castle. If people can just get in and out without going through the gate then the walls are pointless. Tyrion:
*taps nose*
That's why I kept the new way in a secret. Tywin:
So nobody knows about it? Tyrion:
Nobody. Just me.
*drunkenly starts counting on his fingers*
Oh, and the architect. And the foreman.
*audience laughs*
And my wine guy. Oh, and his runners obviously. He doesn't deliver the wine personally.
*Tyrion keeps counting on fingers*
Oh, and all the unskilled labourers they hired to build it.
*Tyrion takes off his shoes*
*audience laughing uncontrollably*
And whichever of your guards most like taking bribes. Gotta keep it on the down low obviously. Just me and about 50 other people know about it. It's a secret. Tywin:
So nobody but you, the architect, the foreman, the wine guy, his runners, and the labourers know about the secret way past the walls? Tyrion:
Yes. Not including all the whores of course.
*audience laughs* Tywin:
The whores? Tyrion:
Well you can hardly expect me to build a secret passageway and not use it to get laid dad.
*audience laughs* Tywin:
Oh you!
*laughs*
*exits stage*
To me the point of Tyrion is that he acted like a drunken lecherous fool because that's all anyone expected of him. His self destructive behaviour was a defence mechanism. But what he wanted most of all was to be recognized as being worthy which led him to do exceptional things to try and earn his father's approval. His father insisted upon a rigorous code of conduct and maintained that his hatred of Tyrion was due to Tyrion's failure to live up to it, despite shit like Jaime abandoning the family to join the Kingsguard etc. Tyrion desperately tried to prove himself a number of times but no matter what he did, it was never enough.
And then Tywin allows him to be sentenced to death and Tyrion learns that all that shit about family and whores and so forth was all bullshit excuses and that nothing he did would ever matter because the game was rigged. His entire life built was built around alternating between trying to prove himself worthy and self destructively playing the role that everyone expected of him. His drinking and whoring is an affectation, deep down he really does want to try hard to win the respect of those around him. He's worked tirelessly and made insane personal sacrifices in the name of the values his father insisted were the ones that would earn him his father's respect, only to be told it wasn't enough.
New show Tyrion is just a fuckup. Apparently he always has been. That kinda ruins his character for me. Tywin was apparently right about him all along.
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i did not realize the logistics behind keeping a secret sewage passage secret lol.
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United States43988 Posts
On August 02 2017 03:08 Emnjay808 wrote:
i did not realize the logistics behind keeping a secret sewage passage secret lol.
A passage used almost exclusively by prostitutes. The most trustworthy of all professions.
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I've said it before and ill say it again, d@d are hacks. They cant write for shit. The only time this show worked was when they virtually verbatim copied another writer.
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Who says noone was spotting it? All of the things shown happen in a pretty large time frame.
When one of the alliances gets a major significant tactic/strategic advantage, it absolutely needs to expanded on. Since they are essential for the plot.
Like imagine watching LOTR, seeing minas tirith being sieged by 200k orcs and then just skipping the rest of the movie untill Frodo throws the ring down in larva. Then people like you could make various types of explanations for how the good guys won the war and defended Minas Tirith, but we need to see it. We need to understand when and how import events happen.
In GOT we have one side having magical fighting power and godlike tactical knowledge while the other side make unreasonable idiotc decisions, and we don't get to see why they are making these decisions. This just straight up bad writing.
And before we say that we cannot go into the detail of all events, remember that these events are not insignifiant. They are extremely important to who gets to sit on the Iron Throne.
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On August 02 2017 05:47 Dazed. wrote:
I've said it before and ill say it again, d@d are hacks. They cant write for shit. The only time this show worked was when they virtually verbatim copied another writer.
The laziest writing ever used on this show was when Jamie's army ran off to Olenna and she proceeded to explain his entire plan back to the audience. This is MTV reality show after ad break catchup level writing. Its a fucking shame.
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On August 02 2017 05:47 Dazed. wrote:
I've said it before and ill say it again, d@d are hacks. They cant write for shit. The only time this show worked was when they virtually verbatim copied another writer.
You'll still watch it though.
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Oh my lord, what a shit season thus far.
What the fuck happened, they realised making Dany land on Dragonstone was fucking retarded so they retconned her to have been born on Dragonstone? WTF?
Now it turns out that the ancient castle of the Castameres and Lannisters has a service tunnel for whores, which is large enough to fit half a host through it?
It feels like every piece of dialogue and plot is pure fan service and Deus Ex Machina is now as common as the intro theme.
The only thing that could have made this worse would have been Dany looking straight into the camera and giving a big wink after saying she's the last Targaryen.
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Something else I've been curious about for the show, when/how does King's Landing know that Highgarden is in open rebellion? It would make no sense for them to declare against the throne before an actual invasion and there wasn't anything that would overtly tip off the throne unless they saw Tyrell ships sailing east or something?
I mean sure it's a safe bet that they're going to try and get retribution for the sept incident, but it's still a jump from that to open war. I suppose we're supposed to assume at some point the Tyrell's refused a summons or something?
What the fuck happened, they realised making Dany land on Dragonstone was fucking retarded so they retconned her to have been born on Dragonstone? WTF?
Unless the show changed something I can't recall it's not a retcon. She was born during the rebellion, her mother had fled to Dragonstone to be safe and away from the war.
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On August 02 2017 06:12 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2017 05:47 Dazed. wrote:
I've said it before and ill say it again, d@d are hacks. They cant write for shit. The only time this show worked was when they virtually verbatim copied another writer. The laziest writing ever used on this show was when Jamie's army ran off to Olenna and she proceeded to explain his entire plan back to the audience. This is MTV reality show after ad break catchup level writing. Its a fucking shame.
I actually made my friend pause the show to discuss just how low an opinion of their audience that scene made it clear the writers have.
+ Show Spoiler +And they are probably right at this point, too huge a cultural phenomenon. I mean people can't even follow Inception or Interstellar
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On August 02 2017 06:19 TheTenthDoc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2017 06:12 Jockmcplop wrote:On August 02 2017 05:47 Dazed. wrote:
I've said it before and ill say it again, d@d are hacks. They cant write for shit. The only time this show worked was when they virtually verbatim copied another writer. The laziest writing ever used on this show was when Jamie's army ran off to Olenna and she proceeded to explain his entire plan back to the audience. This is MTV reality show after ad break catchup level writing. Its a fucking shame. I actually made my friend pause the show to discuss just how low an opinion of their audience that scene made it clear the writers have. + Show Spoiler +And they are probably right at this point, too huge a cultural phenomenon. I mean people can't even follow Inception or Interstellar
Must be so fun watching TV with you
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On August 02 2017 06:19 Logo wrote:Something else I've been curious about for the show, when/how does King's Landing know that Highgarden is in open rebellion? It would make no sense for them to declare against the throne before an actual invasion and there wasn't anything that would overtly tip off the throne unless they saw Tyrell ships sailing east or something? I mean sure it's a safe bet that they're going to try and get retribution for the sept incident, but it's still a jump from that to open war. I suppose we're supposed to assume at some point the Tyrell's refused a summons or something? Show nested quote +What the fuck happened, they realised making Dany land on Dragonstone was fucking retarded so they retconned her to have been born on Dragonstone? WTF?
Unless the show changed something I can't recall it's not a retcon. She was born during the rebellion, her mother had fled to Dragonstone to be safe and away from the war.
God damn egg on my face, I thought Daenerys was born on Storm's End, not Dragonstone.
I was wrong about that shit, but I do still feel like the show is made with blacks making "straight up savage" memes in mind.
User was warned for this post
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Daenerys Targaryen is so fucking annoying gosh.
There is only one king and thats The King in the North 
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I think the bringing together of ice and fire is nothing more than a trick. Jon is ice and fire, by being stark and targ. Danny is just fire, and increasingly obviously, madness.
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On August 02 2017 07:25 Dazed. wrote:
I think the bringing together of ice and fire is nothing more than a trick. Jon is ice and fire, by being stark and targ. Danny is just fire, and increasingly obviously, madness.
I like your theory tbh, it would be unexpected :O but it does not explain why Jon is ice and FIRE? he did nothing special with fire yet
what if we're flaming for no reason for luck of complexity but in "reality" someone in Dany's surrounding is spying for Cersei? which explains everything except teleportation ofc
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On August 02 2017 06:19 Logo wrote:
Something else I've been curious about for the show, when/how does King's Landing know that Highgarden is in open rebellion? It would make no sense for them to declare against the throne before an actual invasion and there wasn't anything that would overtly tip off the throne unless they saw Tyrell ships sailing east or something?
It doesn't matter wether they knew or not if they conspired against them. They knew that Highgarden was no longer a friend, and they need highgarden to be able to supply the war effort and pay back the bankers.
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