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All book discussion in this thread is now allowed. |
On June 01 2016 06:41 Djzapz wrote:Oh another thing I'm surprised with is how Olenna let Lord Tyrell wear that stupid hat  . Speaking of which why does he get to stay on the council, he waged "war" on the faith also. So Jaime is essentially a magnificent scapegoat.
Lord Tyrell seems rather ridiculous and non-dangerous, unlike Jaime.
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On June 01 2016 16:19 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2016 06:41 Djzapz wrote:Oh another thing I'm surprised with is how Olenna let Lord Tyrell wear that stupid hat . Speaking of which why does he get to stay on the council, he waged "war" on the faith also. So Jaime is essentially a magnificent scapegoat. Lord Tyrell seems rather ridiculous and non-dangerous, unlike Jaime.
I've been wondering how house Tyrell managed to sustain their position as one of the mightiest houses with that clown as their lord. Probably shows how much influence and how badass Olena is. Can't see Mace Tyrell doing anything useful for his house besides being the Lord Mascot.
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On June 01 2016 20:56 BlackCompany wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2016 16:19 OtherWorld wrote:On June 01 2016 06:41 Djzapz wrote:Oh another thing I'm surprised with is how Olenna let Lord Tyrell wear that stupid hat . Speaking of which why does he get to stay on the council, he waged "war" on the faith also. So Jaime is essentially a magnificent scapegoat. Lord Tyrell seems rather ridiculous and non-dangerous, unlike Jaime. I've been wondering how house Tyrell managed to sustain their position as one of the mightiest houses with that clown as their lord. Probably shows how much influence and how badass Olena is. Can't see Mace Tyrell doing anything useful for his house besides being the Lord Mascot.
Obviously Olenna makes the decisions for the house back at home while Margaery influences the king and plays the game in King's Landing. Mace is just a puppet.
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On June 01 2016 21:36 Scorch wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2016 20:56 BlackCompany wrote:On June 01 2016 16:19 OtherWorld wrote:On June 01 2016 06:41 Djzapz wrote:Oh another thing I'm surprised with is how Olenna let Lord Tyrell wear that stupid hat . Speaking of which why does he get to stay on the council, he waged "war" on the faith also. So Jaime is essentially a magnificent scapegoat. Lord Tyrell seems rather ridiculous and non-dangerous, unlike Jaime. I've been wondering how house Tyrell managed to sustain their position as one of the mightiest houses with that clown as their lord. Probably shows how much influence and how badass Olena is. Can't see Mace Tyrell doing anything useful for his house besides being the Lord Mascot. Obviously Olenna makes the decisions for the house back at home while Margaery influences the king and plays the game in King's Landing. Mace is just a puppet.
Yeah that's my opinion as well. Probably need Mace because i can imagine there would be a lot of people refusing taking orders from Olena as head of the house
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On June 01 2016 21:59 BlackCompany wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2016 21:36 Scorch wrote:On June 01 2016 20:56 BlackCompany wrote:On June 01 2016 16:19 OtherWorld wrote:On June 01 2016 06:41 Djzapz wrote:Oh another thing I'm surprised with is how Olenna let Lord Tyrell wear that stupid hat . Speaking of which why does he get to stay on the council, he waged "war" on the faith also. So Jaime is essentially a magnificent scapegoat. Lord Tyrell seems rather ridiculous and non-dangerous, unlike Jaime. I've been wondering how house Tyrell managed to sustain their position as one of the mightiest houses with that clown as their lord. Probably shows how much influence and how badass Olena is. Can't see Mace Tyrell doing anything useful for his house besides being the Lord Mascot. Obviously Olenna makes the decisions for the house back at home while Margaery influences the king and plays the game in King's Landing. Mace is just a puppet. Yeah that's my opinion as well. Probably need Mace because i can imagine there would be a lot of people refusing taking orders from Olena as head of the house
Nobody "needs" him, but he exists. As the official head of the house by inheritance rules, he gets to perform some representative tasks where he can't mess up too badly, and he's expected to do as he was told behind the scenes.
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On June 01 2016 22:55 Scorch wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2016 21:59 BlackCompany wrote:On June 01 2016 21:36 Scorch wrote:On June 01 2016 20:56 BlackCompany wrote:On June 01 2016 16:19 OtherWorld wrote:On June 01 2016 06:41 Djzapz wrote:Oh another thing I'm surprised with is how Olenna let Lord Tyrell wear that stupid hat . Speaking of which why does he get to stay on the council, he waged "war" on the faith also. So Jaime is essentially a magnificent scapegoat. Lord Tyrell seems rather ridiculous and non-dangerous, unlike Jaime. I've been wondering how house Tyrell managed to sustain their position as one of the mightiest houses with that clown as their lord. Probably shows how much influence and how badass Olena is. Can't see Mace Tyrell doing anything useful for his house besides being the Lord Mascot. Obviously Olenna makes the decisions for the house back at home while Margaery influences the king and plays the game in King's Landing. Mace is just a puppet. Yeah that's my opinion as well. Probably need Mace because i can imagine there would be a lot of people refusing taking orders from Olena as head of the house Nobody "needs" him, but he exists. As the official head of the house by inheritance rules, he gets to perform some representative tasks where he can't mess up too badly, and he's expected to do as he was told behind the scenes.
By "need Mace" i meant a person like him. Basically a somewhat older, male representetive of the house.
Obviosuly ignoring inheritance rules could lead to trouble but i was merely pointing at the fact that most big houses would not take the Tyrells serious with a woman as ruler. That's still the business of men in the big houses in Westeros. People even shit-talked to Cersei who would probably be closest to being ruler in that case
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On June 01 2016 23:08 BlackCompany wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2016 22:55 Scorch wrote:On June 01 2016 21:59 BlackCompany wrote:On June 01 2016 21:36 Scorch wrote:On June 01 2016 20:56 BlackCompany wrote:On June 01 2016 16:19 OtherWorld wrote:On June 01 2016 06:41 Djzapz wrote:Oh another thing I'm surprised with is how Olenna let Lord Tyrell wear that stupid hat . Speaking of which why does he get to stay on the council, he waged "war" on the faith also. So Jaime is essentially a magnificent scapegoat. Lord Tyrell seems rather ridiculous and non-dangerous, unlike Jaime. I've been wondering how house Tyrell managed to sustain their position as one of the mightiest houses with that clown as their lord. Probably shows how much influence and how badass Olena is. Can't see Mace Tyrell doing anything useful for his house besides being the Lord Mascot. Obviously Olenna makes the decisions for the house back at home while Margaery influences the king and plays the game in King's Landing. Mace is just a puppet. Yeah that's my opinion as well. Probably need Mace because i can imagine there would be a lot of people refusing taking orders from Olena as head of the house Nobody "needs" him, but he exists. As the official head of the house by inheritance rules, he gets to perform some representative tasks where he can't mess up too badly, and he's expected to do as he was told behind the scenes. By "need Mace" i meant a person like him. Basically a somewhat older, male representetive of the house. Obviosuly ignoring inheritance rules could lead to trouble but i was merely pointing at the fact that most big houses would not take the Tyrells serious with a woman as ruler. That's still the business of men in the big houses in Westeros. People even shit-talked to Cersei who would probably be closest to being ruler in that case
That's offensive.
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On June 02 2016 03:06 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2016 23:08 BlackCompany wrote:On June 01 2016 22:55 Scorch wrote:On June 01 2016 21:59 BlackCompany wrote:On June 01 2016 21:36 Scorch wrote:On June 01 2016 20:56 BlackCompany wrote:On June 01 2016 16:19 OtherWorld wrote:On June 01 2016 06:41 Djzapz wrote:Oh another thing I'm surprised with is how Olenna let Lord Tyrell wear that stupid hat . Speaking of which why does he get to stay on the council, he waged "war" on the faith also. So Jaime is essentially a magnificent scapegoat. Lord Tyrell seems rather ridiculous and non-dangerous, unlike Jaime. I've been wondering how house Tyrell managed to sustain their position as one of the mightiest houses with that clown as their lord. Probably shows how much influence and how badass Olena is. Can't see Mace Tyrell doing anything useful for his house besides being the Lord Mascot. Obviously Olenna makes the decisions for the house back at home while Margaery influences the king and plays the game in King's Landing. Mace is just a puppet. Yeah that's my opinion as well. Probably need Mace because i can imagine there would be a lot of people refusing taking orders from Olena as head of the house Nobody "needs" him, but he exists. As the official head of the house by inheritance rules, he gets to perform some representative tasks where he can't mess up too badly, and he's expected to do as he was told behind the scenes. By "need Mace" i meant a person like him. Basically a somewhat older, male representetive of the house. Obviosuly ignoring inheritance rules could lead to trouble but i was merely pointing at the fact that most big houses would not take the Tyrells serious with a woman as ruler. That's still the business of men in the big houses in Westeros. People even shit-talked to Cersei who would probably be closest to being ruler in that case That's offensive.
Not my fault that GRRM writes that way
Dont get me wrong, there are a lot of strong women figures in GoT. But the house-leaders are all males.
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What do we make of that in terms of Sansa trying to reestablish house Stark?
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On June 02 2016 03:12 BlackCompany wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2016 03:06 Djzapz wrote:On June 01 2016 23:08 BlackCompany wrote:On June 01 2016 22:55 Scorch wrote:On June 01 2016 21:59 BlackCompany wrote:On June 01 2016 21:36 Scorch wrote:On June 01 2016 20:56 BlackCompany wrote:On June 01 2016 16:19 OtherWorld wrote:On June 01 2016 06:41 Djzapz wrote:Oh another thing I'm surprised with is how Olenna let Lord Tyrell wear that stupid hat . Speaking of which why does he get to stay on the council, he waged "war" on the faith also. So Jaime is essentially a magnificent scapegoat. Lord Tyrell seems rather ridiculous and non-dangerous, unlike Jaime. I've been wondering how house Tyrell managed to sustain their position as one of the mightiest houses with that clown as their lord. Probably shows how much influence and how badass Olena is. Can't see Mace Tyrell doing anything useful for his house besides being the Lord Mascot. Obviously Olenna makes the decisions for the house back at home while Margaery influences the king and plays the game in King's Landing. Mace is just a puppet. Yeah that's my opinion as well. Probably need Mace because i can imagine there would be a lot of people refusing taking orders from Olena as head of the house Nobody "needs" him, but he exists. As the official head of the house by inheritance rules, he gets to perform some representative tasks where he can't mess up too badly, and he's expected to do as he was told behind the scenes. By "need Mace" i meant a person like him. Basically a somewhat older, male representetive of the house. Obviosuly ignoring inheritance rules could lead to trouble but i was merely pointing at the fact that most big houses would not take the Tyrells serious with a woman as ruler. That's still the business of men in the big houses in Westeros. People even shit-talked to Cersei who would probably be closest to being ruler in that case That's offensive. Not my fault that GRRM writes that way Dont get me wrong, there are a lot of strong women figures in GoT. But the house-leaders are all males.
I was kidding . It's an alternate reality but obviously it's reminiscent of medieval times with a feudal system. Can't complain too much about it being patriarchal.
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Eh sorry if what i said came the wrong way, not trying to be offensive here. I always see GoT from a political standpoint like it was in medieval europe.
Sansa becoming the head of house Stark would be interesting (although i think it's gonna be Jon). But other then that? There was Lisa Arryn i guess as somewhat head of a house. But for the other houses we've had Eddard, Tywin, Renly, Stannis, Baleon & Doran. Altough some that seems to be changing now with Sansa possibly taking over house Stark, Sandsnakes possibly taking over Dorne. And Cersei has only her uncle Kevan to get rid off to lead house Lannister
On June 02 2016 03:25 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2016 03:12 BlackCompany wrote:On June 02 2016 03:06 Djzapz wrote:On June 01 2016 23:08 BlackCompany wrote:On June 01 2016 22:55 Scorch wrote:On June 01 2016 21:59 BlackCompany wrote:On June 01 2016 21:36 Scorch wrote:On June 01 2016 20:56 BlackCompany wrote:On June 01 2016 16:19 OtherWorld wrote:On June 01 2016 06:41 Djzapz wrote:Oh another thing I'm surprised with is how Olenna let Lord Tyrell wear that stupid hat . Speaking of which why does he get to stay on the council, he waged "war" on the faith also. So Jaime is essentially a magnificent scapegoat. Lord Tyrell seems rather ridiculous and non-dangerous, unlike Jaime. I've been wondering how house Tyrell managed to sustain their position as one of the mightiest houses with that clown as their lord. Probably shows how much influence and how badass Olena is. Can't see Mace Tyrell doing anything useful for his house besides being the Lord Mascot. Obviously Olenna makes the decisions for the house back at home while Margaery influences the king and plays the game in King's Landing. Mace is just a puppet. Yeah that's my opinion as well. Probably need Mace because i can imagine there would be a lot of people refusing taking orders from Olena as head of the house Nobody "needs" him, but he exists. As the official head of the house by inheritance rules, he gets to perform some representative tasks where he can't mess up too badly, and he's expected to do as he was told behind the scenes. By "need Mace" i meant a person like him. Basically a somewhat older, male representetive of the house. Obviosuly ignoring inheritance rules could lead to trouble but i was merely pointing at the fact that most big houses would not take the Tyrells serious with a woman as ruler. That's still the business of men in the big houses in Westeros. People even shit-talked to Cersei who would probably be closest to being ruler in that case That's offensive. Not my fault that GRRM writes that way Dont get me wrong, there are a lot of strong women figures in GoT. But the house-leaders are all males. I was kidding . It's an alternate reality but obviously it's reminiscent of medieval times with a feudal system. Can't complain too much about it being patriarchal.
Ah okay haha, you got me there!
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I don't think Sansa can become head of the Starks with Jon, Bran and the little brother whose name I just forgot still alive.
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United States43985 Posts
On June 02 2016 03:52 OtherWorld wrote:
I don't think Sansa can become head of the Starks with Jon, Bran and the little brother whose name I just forgot still alive.
Jon isn't a Stark until a king legitimizes him. Bran and Rickon come first.
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On June 02 2016 03:57 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2016 03:52 OtherWorld wrote:
I don't think Sansa can become head of the Starks with Jon, Bran and the little brother whose name I just forgot still alive. Jon isn't a Stark until a king legitimizes him. Bran and Rickon come first.
Rising from the dead might "legitimize" him in the eyes of many. Dany isn't exactly a Khal either and look ...
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On June 02 2016 03:57 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2016 03:52 OtherWorld wrote:
I don't think Sansa can become head of the Starks with Jon, Bran and the little brother whose name I just forgot still alive. Jon isn't a Stark until a king legitimizes him. Bran and Rickon come first.
That's true, but in the event everyone still thinks Bran and Rickon are dead (or both die soon), I guess Jon would take precedence over Sansa?
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On June 02 2016 03:57 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2016 03:52 OtherWorld wrote:
I don't think Sansa can become head of the Starks with Jon, Bran and the little brother whose name I just forgot still alive. Jon isn't a Stark until a king legitimizes him. Bran and Rickon come first.
The only one who's in the running is Rickon, and he's currently quite indisposed. Bran is well on his way to Hogwarts by now and probably won't be leadership material ever.
As for Jon, it seems plausible to me that he's actually the son of Lyanna Stark and not Ned, which I guess would make him a suitable heir in the absence of Rickon, should he be murdered by Ramsay while Bran is learning how to wingardium leviosa.
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On June 02 2016 04:00 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2016 03:57 KwarK wrote:On June 02 2016 03:52 OtherWorld wrote:
I don't think Sansa can become head of the Starks with Jon, Bran and the little brother whose name I just forgot still alive. Jon isn't a Stark until a king legitimizes him. Bran and Rickon come first. That's true, but in the event everyone still thinks Bran and Rickon are dead (or both die soon), I guess Jon would take precedence over Sansa?
Unless he gets declared a Stark he cant inherit Winterfell / the Stark name & everything. It's as if he did not exist for inheriting the North. So Bran should be the actual heir/lord of Winterfell (unless Starks have the rule that Sansa can inherit which i dont know)
But since he is assumed dead... should be Rickon since the Boltons have him.
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On June 02 2016 04:09 BlackCompany wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2016 04:00 OtherWorld wrote:On June 02 2016 03:57 KwarK wrote:On June 02 2016 03:52 OtherWorld wrote:
I don't think Sansa can become head of the Starks with Jon, Bran and the little brother whose name I just forgot still alive. Jon isn't a Stark until a king legitimizes him. Bran and Rickon come first. That's true, but in the event everyone still thinks Bran and Rickon are dead (or both die soon), I guess Jon would take precedence over Sansa? Unless he gets declared a Stark he cant inherit Winterfell / the Stark name & everything. It's as if he did not exist for inheriting the North. So Bran should be the actual heir/lord of Winterfell (unless Starks have the rule that Sansa can inherit which i dont know) But since he is assumed dead... should be Rickon since the Boltons have him.
It seems like many of the rules of conduct and hierarchy have been thrown out the window in these hard times in Westeros though. At the beginning of the show we were told loud and clear that Kinslaying is the worst thing ever, now we have Balon Greyjoy and Roose Bolton and sort of Doran Martell who have been killed by family or family-ish persons and the world hasn't stopped turning, they just kind of came to accept it. It seems plausible that the north could rally around the bastard son of Eddard Stark (or Lyanna Stark) even if he wasn't declared a Stark because the dire situation calls for it. I mean "the north remembers" and all that, the pain from getting fucked by the Boltons, Karstarks and Umbers has to be quite painful for those people.
I mean what's so hard about rallying behind Ned's bastard when the highest lord in the north is a sadistic kinslaying rapist bastard... If Robb could choose to give Jon the name Stark he probably would but he was betrayed. It's not too hard to legitimize Jon as the heir of the North or Winterfell under those circumstances.
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On June 02 2016 04:14 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2016 04:09 BlackCompany wrote:On June 02 2016 04:00 OtherWorld wrote:On June 02 2016 03:57 KwarK wrote:On June 02 2016 03:52 OtherWorld wrote:
I don't think Sansa can become head of the Starks with Jon, Bran and the little brother whose name I just forgot still alive. Jon isn't a Stark until a king legitimizes him. Bran and Rickon come first. That's true, but in the event everyone still thinks Bran and Rickon are dead (or both die soon), I guess Jon would take precedence over Sansa? Unless he gets declared a Stark he cant inherit Winterfell / the Stark name & everything. It's as if he did not exist for inheriting the North. So Bran should be the actual heir/lord of Winterfell (unless Starks have the rule that Sansa can inherit which i dont know) But since he is assumed dead... should be Rickon since the Boltons have him. It seems like many of the rules of conduct and hierarchy have been thrown out the window in these hard times in Westeros though. At the beginning of the show we were told loud and clear that Kinslaying is the worst thing ever, now we have Balon Greyjoy and Roose Bolton and sort of Doran Martell who have been killed by family or family-ish persons and the world hasn't stopped turning, they just kind of came to accept it. It seems plausible that the north could rally around the bastard son of Eddard Stark (or Lyanna Stark) even if he wasn't declared a Stark because the dire situation calls for it. I mean "the north remembers" and all that, the pain from getting fucked by the Boltons, Karstarks and Umbers has to be quite painful for those people. I mean what's so hard about rallying behind Ned's bastard when the highest lord in the north is a sadistic kinslaying rapist bastard... If Robb could choose to give Jon the name Stark he probably would but he was betrayed. It's not too hard to legitimize Jon as the heir of the North or Winterfell under those circumstances.
That's true. I meant from a "legal" point of view in Westeros Jon could not inherit right now. But you are absolutely right.
Plus he would make a better leader than some of the others that are around right now .
That said it will be interesting to see if Jon even wants to rule. He always wanted to be a Stark but maybe he is fed up with everything IF he survives till the end and just lives in a lonely hut far away from everyone^^
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United States43985 Posts
On June 02 2016 04:07 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2016 03:57 KwarK wrote:On June 02 2016 03:52 OtherWorld wrote:
I don't think Sansa can become head of the Starks with Jon, Bran and the little brother whose name I just forgot still alive. Jon isn't a Stark until a king legitimizes him. Bran and Rickon come first. The only one who's in the running is Rickon, and he's currently quite indisposed. Bran is well on his way to Hogwarts by now and probably won't be leadership material ever. As for Jon, it seems plausible to me that he's actually the son of Lyanna Stark and not Ned, which I guess would make him a suitable heir in the absence of Rickon, should he be murdered by Ramsay while Bran is learning how to wingardium leviosa.
Wouldn't put him before Sansa or Arya.
The rule goes
1) Current lord
While current lord is alive the succession goes
2) Legitimate sons (eldest to youngest)
2a) Legitimate children of sons (eldest to youngest boy and then girl of each son respectively in the order of age)
3) Legitimate daughters eldest to youngest)
3a) Legitimate children of daughters (eldest to youngest boy and then girl of each son respectively in the order of age)
If any of those exist then they become current lord and the search stops and the entire order is revised. So, for example, if Robb's child had been born then the child would have become #2, not Bran.
If none of these are alive then you go up one level and retry the rules at the generation before.
Additionally for the purposes of lineage all dead people are treated as though they are alive so if Robbs child had been born while Ned was alive and then the succession would have gone Ned, Robb, Robb's child, with Bran and Rickon following and even had Robb died before Ned the heir would still have been Robb's child because his dead body still counts for the purposes of who comes first, it just gets skipped for actual lordship.
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EPT
