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KwarK
United States44387 Posts
On May 21 2015 06:33 Gorsameth wrote: Kill Ramsey, signal the supporters she has as told by the elderly women before and get whisked away into the countryside to hide until Stannis shows up? Not a great plan. | ||
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ZasZ.
United States2911 Posts
On May 21 2015 06:33 Gorsameth wrote: Kill Ramsey, signal the supporters she has as told by the elderly women before and get whisked away into the countryside to hide until Stannis shows up? I had forgotten about her, but I think I would need a little bit more information from that old woman before I would stake my life on her help. She wasn't exactly clear on what that meant and whether or not her supporters would be able to kidnap her from behind Winterfell's walls. Also, it seems like she doesn't (or didn't, she probably knows now) know the full extent of Ramsay's depravity, but he would so be the type to get that woman to say those things to Sansa so he can rip it out from under her. | ||
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killa_robot
Canada1884 Posts
On May 21 2015 05:08 Nebuchad wrote: There's also the idea that because Sansa was raped, it undoes all the advances her character has made, and she's now back to having no agency and being the victim she was in season 2. It blows my mind that this critic isn't viewed as offensive, considering it literally says that raped women are weak, can't have character growth, and lose all agency over their own lives, but well, what do I know. ... Except the only real advances she's made is the ability to lie and accepting her place in the game of thrones, both of which she demonstrated. Old Sansa would have violently refused or called for help, causing Ramsey to beat her, then rape her anyway, and be more likely to get rid of her as soon as possible. By simply accepting it, she can still wield some of the power associated with being his wife, because Ramsey has no reason to do anything like restrict her to her room, since she's shown to listen to him. It's like you guys somehow think Sansa actually has any real power right now, lol. She's in the exact same position she was in before, she just knows how to play her part better. Doesn't mean it's going to be a nice experience for her. | ||
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TMG26
Portugal2017 Posts
On May 21 2015 06:37 killa_robot wrote: It's like you guys somehow think Sansa actually has any real power right now, lol. She's in the exact same position she was in before, she just knows how to play her part better. Doesn't mean it's going to be a nice experience for her. Sansa still has support in the North has it was shown before, so she is not completely powerless. Still she still has to play her part, for now, and maybe for a long while, but eventually she will have to strike. Her strength will show when she becomes capable of creating such opportunity, or when a opportunity appear, taking advantage of it. For now, she has to play Ramsay's sweet wife. | ||
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Musicus
Germany23580 Posts
Hahaha, that alone made this episode awesome! | ||
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RenSC2
United States1098 Posts
On May 21 2015 05:58 Gorsameth wrote: And yes I agree Littlefinger is the greatest player. Tyrion is the only one I would see close to him but Littlefinger is much more ruthless. Tyrion is a poor player of the game. He's a good ruler and he's good at escaping with his life, but every move he has made seems to put him in lower and lower positions of power. He's now completely exiled and his family name is worthless whereas it used to be a huge asset. He's only alive by the good graces of Varys, who pretty much gave up his spot in the game to save Tyrion, but will undoubtedly find a way back into the game. Varys is a good player. Tywin was a good player until he got killed. And yes, Littlefinger is probably the best player. | ||
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Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
On May 21 2015 07:32 RenSC2 wrote: Tyrion is a poor player of the game. He's a good ruler and he's good at escaping with his life, but every move he has made seems to put him in lower and lower positions of power. He's now completely exiled and his family name is worthless whereas it used to be a huge asset. He's only alive by the good graces of Varys, who pretty much gave up his spot in the game to save Tyrion, but will undoubtedly find a way back into the game. Varys is a good player. Tywin was a good player until he got killed. And yes, Littlefinger is probably the best player. Tyrion was actually a pretty good player. The only reason he lost power was because 1) He got injured in the Battle of Blackwater, giving his enemies time to remove all of his support, and 2) Joffrey was murdered and he became the scapegoat. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22664 Posts
On May 21 2015 07:32 RenSC2 wrote: Tyrion is a poor player of the game. He's a good ruler and he's good at escaping with his life, but every move he has made seems to put him in lower and lower positions of power. He's now completely exiled and his family name is worthless whereas it used to be a huge asset. He's only alive by the good graces of Varys, who pretty much gave up his spot in the game to save Tyrion, but will undoubtedly find a way back into the game. Varys is a good player. Tywin was a good player until he got killed. And yes, Littlefinger is probably the best player. I would argue Tyrion fell so far because unlike his main opponent (Cersei) he wasn't willing to kill family for personal gain. Hence my comment that Littlefinger is better because he has no such reservation. . | ||
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RenSC2
United States1098 Posts
When has he eliminated/reduced an enemy or gained favor of an important ally? You could argue that he gained the favor of Varys by ruling well, but that's still a little different from playing the game. | ||
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TMG26
Portugal2017 Posts
On May 21 2015 08:58 RenSC2 wrote: Other than sending Janos Slynt to the wall, can you give an example of where Tyrion played the game well? Checking who reports to Cersei. Also Tyrion was sent to KL to make sure things are going okay. which he did. He was loyal to his father, and as an extra brought Dorne to help with the war. He fulfilled his duty better than anyone else. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22664 Posts
On May 21 2015 08:58 RenSC2 wrote: Other than sending Janos Slynt to the wall, can you give an example of where Tyrion played the game well? And I don't mean cases where he talked his way out of dying, which he has done often. That's a different skill from playing the game. When has he eliminated/reduced an enemy or gained favor of an important ally? You could argue that he gained the favor of Varys by ruling well, but that's still a little different from playing the game. Secure Dorn with Marcella. Save Kings Landing from Stannis, Keeping his sister from destroying his house (prior to his injury). Trying to keep Joffrey from destroying the kingdom. Every single thing he did since arriving at Kings Landing has been to keep his house in power. Aside from trying to become king himself, what more would you expect of him? The only times he 'lost' were when his Sister had a Kingsguard try to kill him and the trial where she tried to kill him again. | ||
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Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
On May 21 2015 08:58 RenSC2 wrote: Other than sending Janos Slynt to the wall, can you give an example of where Tyrion played the game well? And I don't mean cases where he talked his way out of dying, which he has done often. That's a different skill from playing the game. When has he eliminated/reduced an enemy or gained favor of an important ally? You could argue that he gained the favor of Varys by ruling well, but that's still a little different from playing the game. He firmly established power when he became the Hand of the King, including negotiating his way to actual support from the Clans of the Vale. He has repeatedly proven extremely skilled at negotiations, had a tab on pretty much everything that occurred in King's Landing during his time there, and he is primarily responsible for saving King's Landing. He also improved his house's relations with Dorne. | ||
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shin_toss
Philippines2589 Posts
I agree that Tyrion is a good player, the only reason he falls in bad situations is because he is naturally good, which is a big disadvantage imo. | ||
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WolfintheSheep
Canada14127 Posts
His biggest (and only real) failure was that all of his power came from someone who hated his guts. | ||
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scudst0rm
Canada1149 Posts
On May 21 2015 06:36 ZasZ. wrote: I had forgotten about her, but I think I would need a little bit more information from that old woman before I would stake my life on her help. She wasn't exactly clear on what that meant and whether or not her supporters would be able to kidnap her from behind Winterfell's walls. Also, it seems like she doesn't (or didn't, she probably knows now) know the full extent of Ramsay's depravity, but he would so be the type to get that woman to say those things to Sansa so he can rip it out from under her. Totally. Did people forget how Ramsay setup that whole rouse of freeing Theon just so he could have him chased around and captured again. | ||
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fuzzy_panda
New Zealand1681 Posts
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Redox
Germany24794 Posts
On May 21 2015 19:00 fuzzy_panda wrote: With the whole Sansa thing, am I the only one that think it's not excessive? Dany was raped in a similar way in the first season by Drogo. Sure she eventually grew to love him and Ramsay is a really fucked up dude that can't compare to Drogo. However Dany's early scenes were quite graphic and I distinctly remember her crying during the early few times. With Sansa's case I almost wouldn't classify that as full on rape as she is now technically Ramsays wife. I think sex is usually expected on a wedding night? The way Ramsay made theon watch is sick but totally within his character. He's done far far worse. No you are not the only one that thinks that. We already had like 20 posts expressing similar sentiments. | ||
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shin_toss
Philippines2589 Posts
On May 21 2015 19:00 fuzzy_panda wrote: With the whole Sansa thing, am I the only one that think it's not excessive? Dany was raped in a similar way in the first season by Drogo. Sure she eventually grew to love him and Ramsay is a really fucked up dude that can't compare to Drogo. However Dany's early scenes were quite graphic and I distinctly remember her crying during the early few times. With Sansa's case I almost wouldn't classify that as full on rape as she is now technically Ramsays wife. I think sex is usually expected on a wedding night? The way Ramsay made theon watch is sick but totally within his character. He's done far far worse. as already said several times. attachement to the character has it, she lived 5 seasons and considered to be one of the protagonists by most viewers (but since its GoT theres probably no clear protagonist/antagonists) anyway its like that. I think they(including me) are NOT against the scene but its more of an "aww noo T.T" feeling. Its diff to Dany's bec it happened early in the show and I doubt anyone has an attachment to her character by that time. | ||
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Yoav
United States1874 Posts
On May 21 2015 19:00 fuzzy_panda wrote: With the whole Sansa thing, am I the only one that think it's not excessive? Dany was raped in a similar way in the first season by Drogo. Sure she eventually grew to love him and Ramsay is a really fucked up dude that can't compare to Drogo. However Dany's early scenes were quite graphic and I distinctly remember her crying during the early few times. With Sansa's case I almost wouldn't classify that as full on rape as she is now technically Ramsays wife. I think sex is usually expected on a wedding night? The way Ramsay made theon watch is sick but totally within his character. He's done far far worse. I agree there's plenty of bad stuff in this show, Dany's rape more graphic, Ramsay's done worse shit, etc.... But... rape is sex with absence of consent. Did Sansa consent? No, if she'd said no to the Boltons, they would have flayed her alive. She certainly never consented to Ramsay approaching her. You can't really consent under a threat, even a far more minor one than "flaying alive." And from the point of view of "psychologically traumatic," did you think she's gonna be okay with it? As for everybody's reaction, there's a few things. One, she's a relatable character who we've gotten to know. Secondly, and probably more importantly, rape of a teenager feels "closer to home" than the beheadings and flayings. Sadly, a decent chunk of this show's viewership has been raped, and basically everyone knows someone who's been raped, even if they aren't old/trusted enough to have been told. Relatively few of us know someone who was murdered, particularly by beheading or flaying. To people who have been raped, it's often the worst memory they have. It's rough to relive that watching a TV show for entertainment. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States24394 Posts
On May 22 2015 02:19 Yoav wrote: I agree there's plenty of bad stuff in this show, Dany's rape more graphic, Ramsay's done worse shit, etc.... But... rape is sex with absence of consent. Did Sansa consent? No, if she'd said no to the Boltons, they would have flayed her alive. She certainly never consented to Ramsay approaching her. You can't really consent under a threat, even a far more minor one than "flaying alive." And from the point of view of "psychologically traumatic," did you think she's gonna be okay with it? As for everybody's reaction, there's a few things. One, she's a relatable character who we've gotten to know. Secondly, and probably more importantly, rape of a teenager feels "closer to home" than the beheadings and flayings. Sadly, a decent chunk of this show's viewership has been raped, and basically everyone knows someone who's been raped, even if they aren't old/trusted enough to have been told. Relatively few of us know someone who was murdered, particularly by beheading or flaying. To people who have been raped, it's often the worst memory they have. It's rough to relive that watching a TV show for entertainment. I think one could make an argument that she basically consented when she decided not to turn around but to go down and marry Ramsey in the first place. Regardless, I just think it's ironic a fake rape (using the word loosely) where the actress was really excited to do it, causes so many people more consternation than all the real rape happening on campuses and across the country. It's almost like a lot of the crap about it was more about glomming onto GOT for clickbait than to actually have a problem with rape or it's depiction. | ||
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