On April 17 2014 06:45 Zandar wrote: Reading up a bit, many people say Tywin could also be the poisoner, but I don't think so.
He even let baby Tyrion live just because he was a Lannister, while he really wanted to drown him in the sea.
For the good of the family. Joffrey may not necessarily be for the good of the family, he was getting harder to control by the day and Margaery was clearly gaining influence over him.
yeah but what good does killing him like this do to his family.
His one son gets accused of the murder, his other son gets accused of failing to protect his king as the bodyguard commander, his daughter probably goes crazymode.
Tyrion's alleged involvement couldn't have been predicted, that was all initiated by Joffrey. And if Jaime is forced to resign the Kingsguard in shame after allowing the king to die on his watch who benefits? Tywin.
On April 17 2014 06:45 Zandar wrote: Reading up a bit, many people say Tywin could also be the poisoner, but I don't think so.
He even let baby Tyrion live just because he was a Lannister, while he really wanted to drown him in the sea.
For the good of the family. Joffrey may not necessarily be for the good of the family, he was getting harder to control by the day and Margaery was clearly gaining influence over him.
yeah but what good does killing him like this do to his family.
His one son gets accused of the murder, his other son gets accused of failing to protect his king as the bodyguard commander, his daughter probably goes crazymode.
Tyrion's alleged involvement couldn't have been predicted, that was all initiated by Joffrey. And if Jaime is forced to resign the Kingsguard in shame after allowing the king to die on his watch who benefits? Tywin.
Mmm, he got to stay in king guard's after he literally killed the king he was guarding, how is merely letting a king die going to be enough shame to cause a resignation?
On April 17 2014 06:45 Zandar wrote: Reading up a bit, many people say Tywin could also be the poisoner, but I don't think so.
He even let baby Tyrion live just because he was a Lannister, while he really wanted to drown him in the sea.
For the good of the family. Joffrey may not necessarily be for the good of the family, he was getting harder to control by the day and Margaery was clearly gaining influence over him.
yeah but what good does killing him like this do to his family.
His one son gets accused of the murder, his other son gets accused of failing to protect his king as the bodyguard commander, his daughter probably goes crazymode.
Tyrion's alleged involvement couldn't have been predicted, that was all initiated by Joffrey. And if Jaime is forced to resign the Kingsguard in shame after allowing the king to die on his watch who benefits? Tywin.
Mmm, he got to stay in king guard's after he literally killed the king he was guarding, how is merely letting a king die going to be enough shame to cause a resignation?
No matter how you look at it, Kwark is way off on this. Its not in Tywins character to harm his own family. He's made that clear throughout the entire series.
On April 17 2014 06:45 Zandar wrote: Reading up a bit, many people say Tywin could also be the poisoner, but I don't think so.
He even let baby Tyrion live just because he was a Lannister, while he really wanted to drown him in the sea.
For the good of the family. Joffrey may not necessarily be for the good of the family, he was getting harder to control by the day and Margaery was clearly gaining influence over him.
yeah but what good does killing him like this do to his family.
His one son gets accused of the murder, his other son gets accused of failing to protect his king as the bodyguard commander, his daughter probably goes crazymode.
Tyrion's alleged involvement couldn't have been predicted, that was all initiated by Joffrey. And if Jaime is forced to resign the Kingsguard in shame after allowing the king to die on his watch who benefits? Tywin.
Mmm, he got to stay in king guard's after he literally killed the king he was guarding, how is merely letting a king die going to be enough shame to cause a resignation?
No matter how you look at it, Kwark is way off on this. Its not in Tywins character to harm his own family. He's made that clear throughout the entire series.
Tywin's literally the only person on Westeros still saying Joffrey Baratheon with a straight face.
On April 17 2014 06:45 Zandar wrote: Reading up a bit, many people say Tywin could also be the poisoner, but I don't think so.
He even let baby Tyrion live just because he was a Lannister, while he really wanted to drown him in the sea.
For the good of the family. Joffrey may not necessarily be for the good of the family, he was getting harder to control by the day and Margaery was clearly gaining influence over him.
yeah but what good does killing him like this do to his family.
His one son gets accused of the murder, his other son gets accused of failing to protect his king as the bodyguard commander, his daughter probably goes crazymode.
Tyrion's alleged involvement couldn't have been predicted, that was all initiated by Joffrey. And if Jaime is forced to resign the Kingsguard in shame after allowing the king to die on his watch who benefits? Tywin.
Mmm, he got to stay in king guard's after he literally killed the king he was guarding, how is merely letting a king die going to be enough shame to cause a resignation?
No matter how you look at it, Kwark is way off on this. Its not in Tywins character to harm his own family. He's made that clear throughout the entire series.
Tywin's literally the only person on Westeros still saying Joffrey Baratheon with a straight face.
Hah, thats true. But its still his family even if he doesn't have a Lannister name. Its his grandson, no matter who the father is.
On April 17 2014 06:45 Zandar wrote: Reading up a bit, many people say Tywin could also be the poisoner, but I don't think so.
He even let baby Tyrion live just because he was a Lannister, while he really wanted to drown him in the sea.
For the good of the family. Joffrey may not necessarily be for the good of the family, he was getting harder to control by the day and Margaery was clearly gaining influence over him.
yeah but what good does killing him like this do to his family.
His one son gets accused of the murder, his other son gets accused of failing to protect his king as the bodyguard commander, his daughter probably goes crazymode.
agreed. Not any of the lannisters. Not even Sansa. Either some Stark assassin poisoned the cup as revenge for the red wedding or it was the Terrells throwing some subterfuge coup for more power.
The old terrell lady even said some shady shit about how it's wrong to kill a man at his wedding in that panning shot where she walked past joffrey.
On April 17 2014 10:09 KwarK wrote:Tywin's literally the only person on Westeros still saying Joffrey Baratheon with a straight face.
Though this is essential for Tywin to do in order to maintain power in Westeros, because if he no longer acknowledges that Joffrey is a Baratheon, then it reinforces the assertion that Joffrey is an illegitimate child of Jaime and Cercei. Thus, the Lannisters have no claim to the throne. Tywin is a strategic and political genius in Westeros, comparatively speaking, so takes great measures to ensure his family's prosperity by stifling those rumors with the name Joffrey Baratheon, and actions such as plotting to marry Cercei to Ser Loras to supposedly get rid of those rumors for good.
On April 17 2014 07:12 Mafe wrote: One question I wonder about is: Why would -whoever did it- kill Joffrey at his wedding, when so many eyes could have watched him? I mean circumstances are very different from Robb here: Most of Joffreys presumed killers should have a much easier time killing him at some other point (While Robb was out of reach for his enemies until he entered the Frey castle). Is this not only a murder, but also message at the same time?
Someone who would gain something out of a marriage without consummation.
On April 17 2014 07:12 Mafe wrote: One question I wonder about is: Why would -whoever did it- kill Joffrey at his wedding, when so many eyes could have watched him? I mean circumstances are very different from Robb here: Most of Joffreys presumed killers should have a much easier time killing him at some other point (While Robb was out of reach for his enemies until he entered the Frey castle). Is this not only a murder, but also message at the same time?
The episode did give a lot of clues.
Most evidently, it was Olenna Tyrell, the old lady of House Tyrell, who did it.
She is very sympathetic of Sansa during the period of abuse when she was almost bride-to-be of Joffrey. She didn't want the same happening to Margaery Tyrell. Anyone who has watched the show can understand Joffrey would very quickly become a royal asshole with Margaery as well.
Some interesting things to note. -When Olenna speaks to Sansa at the wedding, she grasps at her necklace. I found that a bit strange. The necklace is then shown on screen, and a jewel is missing below one of the little heart things at which the Olenna grasped. Are these jewels poisonous or have poison inside? Maybe.
Then, before Joffrey takes the fateful swig, we see the goblet placed right near Olenna. It would have been very simple for her to simply place the poison in the goblet before Joffrey again drank from it.
In addition, we see Sansa rushed off by the same "fool" who gave her the necklace in the first place. Most likely, this necklace and poisoning of Joffrey was all part of a conspiracy, and I'm about 99.9% certain that the Olenna killed Joffrey.
I like to imagine that everyone hated Joffrey so much, they set aside their differences and worked together. The whole wedding was staged and rehearsed. That's why when Joffrey made Tyrion his cup bearer, everyone looked so uncomfortable. "Seven Hells, this wasn't in the script!"
On April 17 2014 14:57 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Some interesting things to note. -When Olenna speaks to Sansa at the wedding, she grasps at her necklace. I found that a bit strange. The necklace is then shown on screen, and a jewel is missing below one of the little heart things at which the Olenna grasped. Are these jewels poisonous or have poison inside? Maybe.
Then, before Joffrey takes the fateful swig, we see the goblet placed right near Olenna. It would have been very simple for her to simply place the poison in the goblet before Joffrey again drank from it.
In addition, we see Sansa rushed off by the same "fool" who gave her the necklace in the first place. Most likely, this necklace and poisoning of Joffrey was all part of a conspiracy, and I'm about 99.9% certain that the Olenna killed Joffrey.
Olenna fumbles with Sansa's hair before she touches the necklace, presumably to comfort her while she apologizes for her brother and mother's murder. It is sort of odd the way she does it, but we didn't see Sansa's necklace up close anytime before that scene to know if it was always missing, did we? If Olenna did it, it must have been very deliberate in the directing to show these subtle clues in order to lead us on to her.
You mentioned that Sansa was rushed off with Ser Dontos, but we don't see that at all. We don't see her make a move or a comment towards Ser Dontos, but we don't see her for the rest of the episode either. That may or may not be a clue because after that moment, all of the action was on Joffrey and also didn't show people like Oberyn that were also on the "sidelines" like Sansa.
One clue I haven't seen anyone else mention yet that I just noticed is that immediately after Olenna has her interaction with Sansa and the necklace, the singer starts singing The Reigns of Castamere -- the same song that was played during the Red Wedding that alerted Catelyn that something was awry. The comment has also been made that Olenna tells Sansa something like: "what sort of monster would kill a man at his wedding," while touching the necklace, followed by The Reigns of Castamere.
This is GRRM and GoT though. All of this could be misleading or a setup or more convoluted that it seems. I am very interested to see where this plot goes, not just who did it, but what happens to Tyrion and the others. Even though we seem to have clues as to Olenna doing the deed, was Sansa and Ser Dontos in on it all together or what?
On April 17 2014 07:12 Mafe wrote: One question I wonder about is: Why would -whoever did it- kill Joffrey at his wedding, when so many eyes could have watched him? I mean circumstances are very different from Robb here: Most of Joffreys presumed killers should have a much easier time killing him at some other point (While Robb was out of reach for his enemies until he entered the Frey castle). Is this not only a murder, but also message at the same time?
If you think about it, a setting with many people involved is preferable to a private setting. There are more suspects that can be blamed. The only thing Olenna needed to do is to create enough distraction. This was achieved with the birds in the pie. Remember that she was the one who provided the pie for the feast.
I totally missed the entire necklace thing. I should rewatch it to see exactly what you guys are talking about, though it sounds like you're making a very valid point about everything. Especially the Reigns of Castamere point. That would be a very good clue as to whether Olenna did it or not, should it be true. When I watched this weeks episode, as soon as I saw Olenna sitting there next to the cup with a slight smirk on her face, I had a feeling it was poisoned, though I didn't know for sure. Both of those could be examples of great directing. Margaery could have been in on it as well, since she brought up the diversion of "look! the pie!" which would have given Olenna the opportunity to poison Joffrey's cup. Tyrion being the scapegoat is just gravy for them as well....
On April 17 2014 14:57 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Some interesting things to note. -When Olenna speaks to Sansa at the wedding, she grasps at her necklace. I found that a bit strange. The necklace is then shown on screen, and a jewel is missing below one of the little heart things at which the Olenna grasped. Are these jewels poisonous or have poison inside? Maybe.
Then, before Joffrey takes the fateful swig, we see the goblet placed right near Olenna. It would have been very simple for her to simply place the poison in the goblet before Joffrey again drank from it.
In addition, we see Sansa rushed off by the same "fool" who gave her the necklace in the first place. Most likely, this necklace and poisoning of Joffrey was all part of a conspiracy, and I'm about 99.9% certain that the Olenna killed Joffrey.
Olenna fumbles with Sansa's hair before she touches the necklace, presumably to comfort her while she apologizes for her brother and mother's murder. It is sort of odd the way she does it, but we didn't see Sansa's necklace up close anytime before that scene to know if it was always missing, did we? If Olenna did it, it must have been very deliberate in the directing to show these subtle clues in order to lead us on to her.
You mentioned that Sansa was rushed off with Ser Dontos, but we don't see that at all. We don't see her make a move or a comment towards Ser Dontos, but we don't see her for the rest of the episode either. That may or may not be a clue because after that moment, all of the action was on Joffrey and also didn't show people like Oberyn that were also on the "sidelines" like Sansa.
One clue I haven't seen anyone else mention yet that I just noticed is that immediately after Olenna has her interaction with Sansa and the necklace, the singer starts singing The Reigns of Castamere -- the same song that was played during the Red Wedding that alerted Catelyn that something was awry. The comment has also been made that Olenna tells Sansa something like: "what sort of monster would kill a man at his wedding," while touching the necklace, followed by The Reigns of Castamere.
This is GRRM and GoT though. All of this could be misleading or a setup or more convoluted that it seems. I am very interested to see where this plot goes, not just who did it, but what happens to Tyrion and the others. Even though we seem to have clues as to Olenna doing the deed, was Sansa and Ser Dontos in on it all together or what?
I think it's very obvious Sansa wasn't in on the poison necklace theory. We see Dontos give her the necklace. He tells her a giant sob story, which is the kind of thing Sansa would go for. Personally, I don't think she'd be the must trustworthy confidant in an assassination scheme, no matter the target. Everyone treats Sansa with kid gloves, for good reason. She's an emotional, naive idealist (much to her credit).
So people are pointing towards Olenna in this thread. But I have 2 questions : 1) How do the Tyrells gain from killing Joffrey? Like in the preview, Margaery says 'I would've been the queen'. Now, without even a child of Joffrey, they don't have any claim for the throne (as far as I can tell, I'm not an expert on these things though).
2) Why do the whole necklace thing with sansa in the first place? Couldn't Olenna just wear one of her own? Or even just bring poison with her in some way or another? Unless they are searched or something, she could easily bring it herself without having to involve sansa at all.
On April 17 2014 09:39 Excludos wrote: No matter how you look at it, Kwark is way off on this. Its not in Tywins character to harm his own family. He's made that clear throughout the entire series.
I dont think Kwark is way off. How is it against Tywinns character? As you stated he would never harm his own family but Joffrey was a danger and just ignoring that wouldve harmed his family. He always talked about how you have to make sacrifices for the greater good of the family. And he had 2 options here: Let the whole family go down or kill one of their members. And Tywinn is just the one who would make such an extreme decision.
EPT
