On April 16 2014 17:17 travis wrote: I would think Tywin actually makes the most sense, except how can he prevent margaery from eating the pie or drinking the wine. That's a lot of risk for something very unpredictable, and if it failed would make it much harder to kill him in the future.
Besides, wouldn't it be very easy for Tywin to kill him some other way anyways?
Perhaps it's customary for the groom to eat the cake first, I dunno. And the poison could also have been in the wine or Joffrey's goblet, we don't know that.
Anyway, the murder had to happen at this specific timing: after the wedding went through (to demonstrate good will towards the Tyrells), but before Joffrey had a chance to impregnate Margaery. Assassinating Joffrey conventionally would have been very hard at a heavily guarded wedding.
I mean. Why would Jeoffrey smash the book ? Why the dwarf in the marriages, then the cupbearer. Could someone have pointed to him that making fun of Tyrion was fun or something to do ? It can be just because it doesn't like his uncle.
Also no one talked about the meyster. He have knowledge of poison and is sent to the freaking kitchen by Cercei. Also, the old meyster doesn't really like Tyrion.
On April 15 2014 02:51 nukem1 wrote: why would Lady Olenna have the poison in the necklace the fool gave Sansa? there's no need for the overcomplicated plan. why can't she just have it on her, it's not like anyone is gonna frisk her. plus she is sitting at a different table. from what i see: left table Tyrells (family of the bride), middle table Joffrey and Margaery (the married couple) and the table on the right the Lannisters.
Well, I'm still unconvinced the Tyrells have appropriate motive, but an explanation could be that the Tyrells are trying to frame Sansa. If she's captured with a necklace full of poison stones/vials, with one missing, after the king is poisoned, she's probably in very deep shit.
Of course! That's a great idea! The necklace was only there for framing Sansa, who happened to have a good motive to kill Geoffrey. They didn't actually poison the king with the poison in the stone. They did poison him with the cake. That is also why Cersei demands the leftovers not to be given to the dogs Edit: poor.
Interesting point about the leftovers ... but no. All dogs in the kennel dying all of a sudden would draw more attention than some poor people in the streets dying. Also poisoning the cake would mean they have to just hope and pray that noone eats the cake in the time between Joffrey's taking the first bite and Joffrey being dead, at which point all cake-eating probably ceases. They could have ended up with a dead Joffrey and a dead Tywin, a dead Olenna and a dead Cersei on top. Bad plan. And Cersei is the last person to be a suspect. She's obsessed with family, family is her reason to be alive, her world order, her religion, especially her kids. Her despair at the end over Joffrey's death isn't an act.
On April 16 2014 17:28 FFW_Rude wrote: Do you feal that the Tyrion stuff is exagerated ?
I mean. Why would Jeoffrey smash the book ? Why the dwarf in the marriages, then the cupbearer. Could someone have pointed to him that making fun of Tyrion was fun or something to do ? It can be just because it doesn't like his uncle.
It's not just that he doesn't like him. Tyrion has repeatedly been very open/harsh to Joffrey in the past, slapped him in the face, berated him, even threatened to cut of his dick at his own (Tyrion's) wedding. Considering how mad Joffrey gets over the slightest sign of disrespect, it's clear that he holds a considerable grudge. Tyrion is the only one who doesn't pretend to respect Joffrey, and in my opinion the only reason Joffrey hasn't have him killed by now is that he's Tywin's son.
Also no one talked about the meyster. He have knowledge of poison and is sent to the freaking kitchen by Cercei. Also, the old meyster doesn't really like Tyrion.
Well, that would be an overreaction by Pycell if I ever saw one ;-)
On April 15 2014 02:51 nukem1 wrote: why would Lady Olenna have the poison in the necklace the fool gave Sansa? there's no need for the overcomplicated plan. why can't she just have it on her, it's not like anyone is gonna frisk her. plus she is sitting at a different table. from what i see: left table Tyrells (family of the bride), middle table Joffrey and Margaery (the married couple) and the table on the right the Lannisters.
Well, I'm still unconvinced the Tyrells have appropriate motive, but an explanation could be that the Tyrells are trying to frame Sansa. If she's captured with a necklace full of poison stones/vials, with one missing, after the king is poisoned, she's probably in very deep shit.
Of course! That's a great idea! The necklace was only there for framing Sansa, who happened to have a good motive to kill Geoffrey. They didn't actually poison the king with the poison in the stone. They did poison him with the cake. That is also why Cersei demands the leftovers not to be given to the dogs Edit: poor.
Interesting point about the leftovers ... but no. All dogs in the kennel dying all of a sudden would draw more attention than some poor people in the streets dying. Also poisoning the cake would mean they have to just hope and pray that noone eats the cake in the time between Joffrey's taking the first bite and Joffrey being dead, at which point all cake-eating probably ceases. They could have ended up with a dead Joffrey and a dead Tywin, a dead Olenna and a dead Cersei on top. Bad plan. And Cersei is the last person to be a suspect. She's obsessed with family, family is her reason to be alive, her world order, her religion, especially her kids. Her despair at the end over Joffrey's death isn't an act.
Yes, makes sense to me. So, let's rule out the cake for a moment.
The only opportunity for the wine to be poisoned is after the goblet was put back by Margaery on the king's table. No one is sitting at that table, Olenna is sitting at a separate table next to it. However, when the king slays the pie, everyone stands up to applaud and we also see Olenna is standing. The bird surprise creates enough distraction for Olenna to poison the wine (?!). This in combination with what has been said earlier about Olenna grabbing the stone on Sansa's necklace is probably how it went.
But again, I'm very disappointed with how this is unfolding given how contrived it is. When Olenna decides to poison the king, she has to take the following risks into account:
The fool needs to catch Sansa alone and Sansa needs to accept his necklace
Sansa needs to wear the necklace for the wedding. Given that she has no real emotional connection to the fool, she could easily wear another more precious one from her family.
Olenna needs to take off the stone from Sansa's necklace without her or anyone else noticing.
The stone on the necklace has to come off very easily, otherwise Sansa would notice the force on her neck. However, if the stone can come off so easily, it might just have fallen off when Sansa was putting it on / playing with it.
There needs to be enough distraction (birds) for poisoning the wine. Olenna cannot count on that, so Olenna better put the birds in the cake herself.
Margaery needs to put the cup on the right spot at the right time.
What are the chances that such a plan is gonna work?
Edit: I had forgotten about the dialog between Olenna and Tyrian before the ceremony:
Olenna Tyrell: "...anyway, I don't know what you are complaining about, I'm paying my share." Tywin Lannister: "You wish them golden roses and have them eat pies to commemorate your generosity?" Olenna Tyrell: "No, your heartfelt 'Thank You' is its own reward."
This suggests that Olenna provided the pie for the feast. This way, she could make sure that there are birds inside.
I don't think it could have possibly been Tywin. He is much too concerned with family to do something like kinslaying. If Tywin was to kill anyone it would be Tyrion.
I think this scene does a good job showing how much Tywin hates Tyrion, but doesn't kill him because he's a Lannister. It seems as if Tywin has hated Tyrion from birth and would have had ample opportunity to kill Tyrion long ago. I think Tywin most certainly hates Tyrion more than Joffrey. I don't think he's concerned with controlling Joffrey either since he wasn't really afraid to send Joffrey to bed that one time. Basically, Tywin tolerates Tyrion because Tyrion is a Lannister, so I think he would tolerate Joffrey as well.
i dont think tywin hates tyrion. I think he used to but it feels as if he respects tyrions intelligence more so now than before stannis attack. Tywin probably will defend tyrion next episode, at least i think he will. But i could have read the interactions between the two completely wrong.
On April 16 2014 17:28 FFW_Rude wrote: Do you feal that the Tyrion stuff is exagerated ?
I mean. Why would Jeoffrey smash the book ? Why the dwarf in the marriages, then the cupbearer. Could someone have pointed to him that making fun of Tyrion was fun or something to do ? It can be just because it doesn't like his uncle.
It's not just that he doesn't like him. Tyrion has repeatedly been very open/harsh to Joffrey in the past, slapped him in the face, berated him, even threatened to cut of his dick at his own (Tyrion's) wedding. Considering how mad Joffrey gets over the slightest sign of disrespect, it's clear that he holds a considerable grudge. Tyrion is the only one who doesn't pretend to respect Joffrey, and in my opinion the only reason Joffrey hasn't have him killed by now is that he's Tywin's son.
Also no one talked about the meyster. He have knowledge of poison and is sent to the freaking kitchen by Cercei. Also, the old meyster doesn't really like Tyrion.
Well, that would be an overreaction by Pycell if I ever saw one ;-)
Pycell is also threatened by Cercei a couple of times. But he doesn't look the revenge type. He's a pussy. He could be working for Cercei too.
Also for the Tywin / Tyrion matter i think that Tyrion is a pawn too usefull for Tywin to get rid off. He's the king of the north now that he married Sansa. If Tyrion Dies, Tywin loose the north.
On April 16 2014 17:28 FFW_Rude wrote: Do you feal that the Tyrion stuff is exagerated ?
I mean. Why would Jeoffrey smash the book ? Why the dwarf in the marriages, then the cupbearer. Could someone have pointed to him that making fun of Tyrion was fun or something to do ? It can be just because it doesn't like his uncle.
It's not just that he doesn't like him. Tyrion has repeatedly been very open/harsh to Joffrey in the past, slapped him in the face, berated him, even threatened to cut of his dick at his own (Tyrion's) wedding. Considering how mad Joffrey gets over the slightest sign of disrespect, it's clear that he holds a considerable grudge. Tyrion is the only one who doesn't pretend to respect Joffrey, and in my opinion the only reason Joffrey hasn't have him killed by now is that he's Tywin's son.
Also no one talked about the meyster. He have knowledge of poison and is sent to the freaking kitchen by Cercei. Also, the old meyster doesn't really like Tyrion.
Well, that would be an overreaction by Pycell if I ever saw one ;-)
Pycell is also threatened by Cercei a couple of times. But he doesn't look the revenge type. He's a pussy. He could be working for Cercei too.
Also for the Tywin / Tyrion matter i think that Tyrion is a pawn too usefull for Tywin to get rid off. He's the king of the north now that he married Sansa. If Tyrion Dies, Tywin loose the north.
I forgot all about Tyrions new value to his family. No way Tywin will allow harm to come to Tyrion if he holds the key to the north. Though..... with Sana running off with what's-his-name at the end of the most current episode--how much value does he have? He just lost his wife. I can bet that Tywin will be sending out one hell of a man(women) hunt after her though.
On April 16 2014 18:24 Carcanoth wrote: I don't think it could have possibly been Tywin. He is much too concerned with family to do something like kinslaying. If Tywin was to kill anyone it would be Tyrion.
I think this scene does a good job showing how much Tywin hates Tyrion, but doesn't kill him because he's a Lannister. It seems as if Tywin has hated Tyrion from birth and would have had ample opportunity to kill Tyrion long ago. I think Tywin most certainly hates Tyrion more than Joffrey. I don't think he's concerned with controlling Joffrey either since he wasn't really afraid to send Joffrey to bed that one time. Basically, Tywin tolerates Tyrion because Tyrion is a Lannister, so I think he would tolerate Joffrey as well.
Tywinn is not someone who just blindly kills someone else just because he hates him. He certainly hates Tyrion but of course he doenst kill him because its not benefical to him or his family.
With Joffrey its different. Joffrey is the king and hes nuts, he himself is a big risk to the lannisters. He cant just tolerate him, its the other way around: he has to hope that Joffrey tolerates him.
Its true that Tywinn does whatever is best for him and his family as a whole and if that involves killing a certain family member he will do it.
"NO BOOK DISCUSSION! This thread is for viewers who are all caught up with the show AND who have not read the books. If you have, be very careful about what you post."
I said nothing more than what was shown in the TV show in the latest episode. Did you not see the fool guy grab Sansa? (4:15-4:30) (4:15-4:30)
Yes, you are suggesting that he ran off with her, which is not clear at all in this episode.
Since I can see on the forum index that you are posting here and on the book discussion I can assume that you have read the book. You are using your knowledge of the book to predict future events.
On April 16 2014 19:31 GENerateSAYing wrote: What spoiler?
"NO BOOK DISCUSSION! This thread is for viewers who are all caught up with the show AND who have not read the books. If you have, be very careful about what you post."
I said nothing more than what was shown in the TV show in the latest episode. Did you not see the fool guy grab Sansa? (4:15-4:30) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EealHCKoZQ (4:15-4:30)
As others have said, this thread is for people who have not read the books. Please don't post/speculate about possible future events if you have knowledge from the books. We will have to moderate that otherwise.
On April 16 2014 19:31 GENerateSAYing wrote: What spoiler?
"NO BOOK DISCUSSION! This thread is for viewers who are all caught up with the show AND who have not read the books. If you have, be very careful about what you post."
I said nothing more than what was shown in the TV show in the latest episode. Did you not see the fool guy grab Sansa? (4:15-4:30) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EealHCKoZQ (4:15-4:30)
As others have said, this thread is for people who have not watched the show. Please don't post/speculate about possible future events if you have knowledge from the books. We will have to moderate that otherwise.
The way I read it was "If you have, be very careful about what you post." Which I thought I was. I decided to edit the post in question just in case more people feel like the above poster.
I my opinion, whoever did the poisoning is not sitting anywhere near the king during that wedding, or is completely suicidal and has no further ambitions..
So, one of the spy guys or the strange southern guy. Or Sansa. Or some faction that isnt really involved in kingslanding politics. The southern guy also seems like someone who would stab people in their face. Poison hints at some spy or a woman, as they tend to use poison when killing.
Also, tyrion still has hope, its pretty easy top see if the cake or the wine was poisoned. Maybe they even make him drink the wine, so he will die or proven innocent.
On April 16 2014 20:20 LaNague wrote: I my opinion, whoever did the poisoning is not sitting anywhere near the king during that wedding, or is completely suicidal and has no further ambitions..
So, one of the spy guys or the strange southern guy. Or Sansa. Or some faction that isnt really involved in kingslanding politics. The southern guy also seems like someone who would stab people in their face. Poison hints at some spy or a woman, as they tend to use poison when killing.
Also, tyrion still has hope, its pretty easy top see if the cake or the wine was poisoned. Maybe they even make him drink the wine, so he will die or proven innocent.
"The southern guy" is called Oberyn Nymeros Martell, he is my favorite so yeah everybody should know his name :D
EPT
