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All book discussion in this thread is now allowed. |
On April 15 2014 21:57 wo1fwood wrote:
Q. Isn't because of the marriage that Margerie will be Queen Reagent, or is it because Cersei still has boys?
I'd say Tommen is the new king and Margerie is now the former queen, she was queen for only a small part of a day
And actually Tommen is king not because he's Cersei son, but Robert Baratheons ( he isn't but officially he still is)
Which makes Cersei queen regent again until Tommen becomes an adult
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On April 15 2014 21:11 urboss wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2014 20:48 Mikau wrote:On April 15 2014 16:06 urboss wrote:On April 15 2014 01:38 Yoav wrote:
Okay, so a lot of speculation that the Tyrells did it. But if Westeros is following usual western Europe succession rules:
1) Younger brother (Tommen?) is now king, though under the age of maturity and therefore using a regent.
2) Queen SarahConnor/Gorgia probably goes back to being regent, but it does depend on regency laws, which vary. Tywin probably gets to pick if there is any picking.
3) Tywin remains Hand (based on Ned Stark remaining hand even after a succession, until removal from the role).
4) Margery becomes a whole lot of nothing. Maybe keeps a Princess title, or some other ceremonial title, depending on how they hand those out, but no technical power whatsoever. I really don't see what she would gain from the marriage. Marriage doesn't make queens co-rulers under Westerosi law... they're just consorts. And even then, we were told earlier on in this show that consumation is necessary to count as a proper marriage. Only case I can imagine is if they want a marriage with Tommen (same deal, less insanity), and wanted to kill Joff before consumation so Westerosi incest laws don't prohibit the marriage (and allow them to avoid a Catherine of Aragon style mess).
5) Balon Greyjoy would do well to turn down wedding invitations for the forseeable future. So why would Lady Olenna want to kill the king, if her granddaughter Margaery doesn't gain anything from it? Is she plotting against her own granddaughter? They made it abundantly clear that the crown/Lannisters can't afford everything that's going on and the oncoming winter (at least, that's what I'd guess the significance was of all the time spent discussing splitting the bill of the wedding and how much is owed the Iron Bank of Braavos). The Lannisters still need both the money and army of the Tyrells. Ok, King Joffrey is dead. Tommen is the new King, but he is underaged. That means, for a couple more years, Cersei will be the Queen Regent. How do the Tyrell fit into this picture? You are saying that the Lannisters need the Tyrell because of money, which makes sense. However, are the Lannisters going to give up the throne just because of those money issues?
What's stopping the Tyrells from withdrawing their support if Cersei was straight up made queen regent? Why would Cersei even be the most logical candidate for the job if Margaery was just made queen?
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On April 15 2014 23:15 Mikau wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2014 21:11 urboss wrote:On April 15 2014 20:48 Mikau wrote:On April 15 2014 16:06 urboss wrote:On April 15 2014 01:38 Yoav wrote:
Okay, so a lot of speculation that the Tyrells did it. But if Westeros is following usual western Europe succession rules:
1) Younger brother (Tommen?) is now king, though under the age of maturity and therefore using a regent.
2) Queen SarahConnor/Gorgia probably goes back to being regent, but it does depend on regency laws, which vary. Tywin probably gets to pick if there is any picking.
3) Tywin remains Hand (based on Ned Stark remaining hand even after a succession, until removal from the role).
4) Margery becomes a whole lot of nothing. Maybe keeps a Princess title, or some other ceremonial title, depending on how they hand those out, but no technical power whatsoever. I really don't see what she would gain from the marriage. Marriage doesn't make queens co-rulers under Westerosi law... they're just consorts. And even then, we were told earlier on in this show that consumation is necessary to count as a proper marriage. Only case I can imagine is if they want a marriage with Tommen (same deal, less insanity), and wanted to kill Joff before consumation so Westerosi incest laws don't prohibit the marriage (and allow them to avoid a Catherine of Aragon style mess).
5) Balon Greyjoy would do well to turn down wedding invitations for the forseeable future. So why would Lady Olenna want to kill the king, if her granddaughter Margaery doesn't gain anything from it? Is she plotting against her own granddaughter? They made it abundantly clear that the crown/Lannisters can't afford everything that's going on and the oncoming winter (at least, that's what I'd guess the significance was of all the time spent discussing splitting the bill of the wedding and how much is owed the Iron Bank of Braavos). The Lannisters still need both the money and army of the Tyrells. Ok, King Joffrey is dead. Tommen is the new King, but he is underaged. That means, for a couple more years, Cersei will be the Queen Regent. How do the Tyrell fit into this picture? You are saying that the Lannisters need the Tyrell because of money, which makes sense. However, are the Lannisters going to give up the throne just because of those money issues? What's stopping the Tyrells from withdrawing their support if Cersei was straight up made queen regent? Why would Cersei even be the most logical candidate for the job if Margaery was just made queen?
It's pretty customary in these situations for a parent of the underaged monarch to act as regent until they come of age. With the way succession works, because Margaery didn't have time to have any children with Joffrey, she is nothing now. Tommen is King, and Cersei will most likely be his regent like she was for Joffrey, but people may resist her a little more on that front this time around.
Margaery acting as Queen Regent for Tommen would seem a little strange to you, wouldn't it? When he came of age, what would happen? An unmarried King/Queen on the Iron Throne? Or Margaery being forced to step down?
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On April 15 2014 23:14 Zandar wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2014 21:57 wo1fwood wrote:
Q. Isn't because of the marriage that Margerie will be Queen Reagent, or is it because Cersei still has boys?
I'd say Tommen is the new king and Margerie is now the former queen, she was queen for only a small part of a day And actually Tommen is king not because he's Cersei son, but Robert Baratheons ( he isn't but officially he still is) Which makes Cersei queen regent again until Tommen becomes an adult
I agree that Tommen is the new king, he should be, at least according to "real world" regency.
But I don't understand why Cersei would be queen regent instead of Margerie. She's not the last king's wife, just the futur king's mother.
Edit: and of course while looking for real life examples of queen regent I fell upon what's going to happen in GoT ...
Don't look guys, it's literally right there... 
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i watched the last scene again. I just can't believe lool
Joffrey is fucking dead!!!
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/SIJaN1C.gif)
and about Theon, even thought he was a dick, i felt bad for him  I actually felt really really bad. He should've cut Ramsay Snow's throat while shaving Ramsay is the new character to hate for me.
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On April 15 2014 23:42 Mensol wrote:i watched the last scene again. I just can't believe lool Joffrey is fucking dead!!! and about Theon, even thought he was a dick, i felt bad for him I actually felt really really bad. He should've cut Ramsay Snow's throat while shaving Ramsay is the new character to hate for me.
unlike joffery though he dosn't seem like a complete idiot so it is hard to get to joffery level hate. Plus he is pretty funny at times.
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Here is the pertinent info from the Game of Thrones wiki without any book spoilers:
Regent is the title held by a noble who rules in name of a King or Lord because the ruler is a child or incapacitated. A regent's rule ends when a child heir reaches their sixteenth nameday, as sixteen years old is considered the legal age of adulthood in the Seven Kingdoms.
If the Regent rules in the name of the King of the Andals and the First Men, he or she also hold the title of Protector of the Realm. A royal Regent also holds a seat in the small council, taking the place of the young monarch.
If a king dies and his own queen acts as Regent for their children, she is known as a "Queen Regent". Regents for regular lordships may be referred to as "Lord Protector", or are simply referred to as "Lord Regent", or (if female) "Lady Regent". As by definition the King's death is required for a regency, the title "King Regent" is not used for male regents, simply "Lord Regent".
Known Regents
■ Lady Lysa Arryn, ruling as Lady Regent of the Vale in name of her son Robin Arryn.
■ Lord {Eddard Stark}, Lord of Winterfell, Warden of the North and Hand of the King, declared Regent and Protector of the Realm by Robert Baratheon in his will. Ned, however, was betrayed, arrested and executed for treason and never assumed the Regency.
■ Queen Cersei Lannister, declared herself Queen Regent to her son King Joffrey Baratheon, after betraying Eddard Stark.
Based on this, Cersei is likely to resume the role of Queen Regent because she is the mother of the king, though based on the fact that Robert named Ned Stark as Regent, it doesn't HAVE to be the mother of the new king who is named regent if the now deceased king willed otherwise.
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On April 15 2014 23:42 Mensol wrote:and about Theon, even thought he was a dick, i felt bad for him
Well, he's definitely not a dick anymore..
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On April 15 2014 23:15 Mikau wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2014 21:11 urboss wrote:On April 15 2014 20:48 Mikau wrote:On April 15 2014 16:06 urboss wrote:On April 15 2014 01:38 Yoav wrote:
Okay, so a lot of speculation that the Tyrells did it. But if Westeros is following usual western Europe succession rules:
1) Younger brother (Tommen?) is now king, though under the age of maturity and therefore using a regent.
2) Queen SarahConnor/Gorgia probably goes back to being regent, but it does depend on regency laws, which vary. Tywin probably gets to pick if there is any picking.
3) Tywin remains Hand (based on Ned Stark remaining hand even after a succession, until removal from the role).
4) Margery becomes a whole lot of nothing. Maybe keeps a Princess title, or some other ceremonial title, depending on how they hand those out, but no technical power whatsoever. I really don't see what she would gain from the marriage. Marriage doesn't make queens co-rulers under Westerosi law... they're just consorts. And even then, we were told earlier on in this show that consumation is necessary to count as a proper marriage. Only case I can imagine is if they want a marriage with Tommen (same deal, less insanity), and wanted to kill Joff before consumation so Westerosi incest laws don't prohibit the marriage (and allow them to avoid a Catherine of Aragon style mess).
5) Balon Greyjoy would do well to turn down wedding invitations for the forseeable future. So why would Lady Olenna want to kill the king, if her granddaughter Margaery doesn't gain anything from it? Is she plotting against her own granddaughter? They made it abundantly clear that the crown/Lannisters can't afford everything that's going on and the oncoming winter (at least, that's what I'd guess the significance was of all the time spent discussing splitting the bill of the wedding and how much is owed the Iron Bank of Braavos). The Lannisters still need both the money and army of the Tyrells. Ok, King Joffrey is dead. Tommen is the new King, but he is underaged. That means, for a couple more years, Cersei will be the Queen Regent. How do the Tyrell fit into this picture? You are saying that the Lannisters need the Tyrell because of money, which makes sense. However, are the Lannisters going to give up the throne just because of those money issues? What's stopping the Tyrells from withdrawing their support if Cersei was straight up made queen regent? Why would Cersei even be the most logical candidate for the job if Margaery was just made queen?
Ok, let's consider this is the case and Margaery is made Queen Regent.
She will stay at this position for a few years until Tommen is King.
At that point Margaery would have to marry Tommen to stay on the throne.
All of this would have been much easier for the Tyrells if Joffrey had been killed AFTER Margaery had conceived Joffrey's child. In this case, they would have kept the throne automatically.
This killing doesn't make much sense to me, especially in this settings, namely right after the wedding.
The only explanation I can find is the following:
Margaery didn't know of the poisoning and her grandma Olenna is planning on screwing her over.
If Margaery's brother Loras Tyrell marries Cersei Lannister and they have a son, the Tyrell would get the throne.
In light of this, the conversation between Loras and Jamie at the wedding also makes more sense:
Jamie: "Your sister looks very beautiful!"
Loras: "As does yours!"
Jamie: "So, looking forward to your wedding?"
Loras: "Yes, very much."
Jamie: "Our fathers are rather keen on the prospect."
Loras: "They certainly are"
Jamie: "Perhaps they should get married. - [PAUSE] - If you were to marry Cersei, she’d murder you in your sleep. If you manage to put a child in her, she’ll murder it long before it takes its first breath. Luckily for you, none of this is will happen, because she'll never marry you."
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Oh so ever since Robert's death followed by Ned's execution, it was actually Cersei who was ultimately in charge and not Joffrey? How old is Joff actually, I read they upped the ages for the show compared to the book.
Robert's wish for Ned to rule until Joffrey comes of age implies that he's not 16 yet but I didn't actually get the impression in s2 & 3 that Cersei was really Queen Regent but it Oberyn's talk this episode actually makes sense then. (Though Joffrey isn't really the "king" either :D Tywin is Westeros' current true boss.)
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On April 15 2014 17:04 Zane wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2014 11:29 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On April 15 2014 10:37 SpikeStarcraft wrote:
In the end you just need to have a decent enough claim and the swords to enforce it. Stannis has still the best claim legally, then Tommen, then Myrcella. After that probably Daenarys.. since after Myrcella there arent any Baratheons left.. maybe Stannis sick little daughter.
Legally, Cersei and her children have no claim since none of them are of the royal line. Stannis has the best claim, then his daughter. Legally, Stannis is the brother of a usurper. Dany has the only claim.
No, getting a claim to the throne through conquest is "allowed". If you take the throne then it's yours, that's not the same as being an illegitimate heir.
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My friends and I were discussing this last night with our different theories while re-watching the episode. I should first say that none of us have read the books and secondly we all agree that the poison had to be in the pie, not the wine. He takes a few sips of wine during the play, spits it partly out while laughing but we hardly believe that was his only sip of wine. Joeffrey would be the first to eat the pie for sure because he's the King and it's his wedding. There is also foreshadowing of his death when they show the dead birds inside the cake.
I think everyone is getting too enthralled in Sansa's necklace. IMO Lady Tyrell just fumbles with the necklace because of the fact that it's missing a bead and she has very refined tastes. It also just doesn't make any sense.
The Tyrells don't seem to have anything real to gain from poisoning Joeffrey, with Winter coming they are already forcing the Lannisters to be dependent on them for food (starving poor people), gold (expensive wedding) and swords (wars). Killing Joeffrey just puts Margery in jeopardy of losing any claims to the throne. Margery doesn't have an exclusive claim to the throne. Cersie has two other children who have claims and you can bet your ass that Tywin would die before letting the Tyrells take over the throne from his family. It would make more sense for the Tyrells to put their own baby in Margery, thus breeding the Lannisters off the throne, and waiting until after the marriage was consummated. My friends mostly agree that the Tyrells are behind it but I disagree.
I believe killing a man at his own wedding wasn't a political move, it was personal. That being said Oberyn Martell (Prince of Dorne) does have a personal vendetta against the Lannisters but he doesn't seem like the poison type. He also hates Tywin, not Joeffrey, and killing him would be easier than killing the King I imagine.
Tyrion has the personal motives to kill Joeffrey and the knowledge to be able to use such a powerful poison. He also sent Shae away and could have also sent the fool to take Sansa away knowing they'd be safe after he takes the fall. But isn't Tyrion smarter than that?
Lord Varys, he's got motives to kill Joeffrey "for the good of the relm" as he says many episodes ago. He's very capable of pulling such a stunt and if he didn't do it I'm almost certain he knew about it. It makes the most sense that he knew about it but didn't reveal his knowledge because he would be killed, he could have known Tyrion would be framed, and thus had the fool rescue Sansa. So if Varys knew then he was either protecting the culprit by not telling anyone or he feared culprit would kill him.
The Hand of the King, Tywin Lannister. It's just crazy enough to fit into what you would expect in GoT. Almost everything fits. He wants a Lannister on the throne more than anyone. I spoilered this because its getting long and I also included clips from the show to support my idea. The only doubts I have is that upon Joeffrey's death Tywin doesn't look pleased. It's only a brief shot of his face but it's enough to give me doubts about my theory. But its still fun to speculate! Tywin has become one of my favorite characters in the show and I pieced my entire theory together after watching a compilation video of all his best quotes.
+ Show Spoiler +I believe Tywin has a master plan to put the Lannisters in power for a "dynasty that will last a 1000 years or collapse into nothing." He plans for Jaime Lannister to start a family and rule Casterly Rock, Cersie will marry Sir Loras and rule in High Garden, Tyrion has already married Sansa and will rule in the North. As for King's Landing, Tywin will remain the Hand of the King and rule the capital until Tommen becomes of age. Tommen will declare himself a Lannister when he takes the crown and with their family influence throughout the North (Tyrion), the Reach (Cersie) and the West (Jaime), nobody will denounce the Lannister name on the Iron Throne. He hints at this plan in this clip. Tywin describes here about how the Family name is all that matters and the Family come before any individual member. He didn't kill Tyrion because he is a Lannister but Joeffrey is a Baratheon depending on who you ask. Tywin Lannister is the most powerful man in Westeros based on this clip and Joeffrey is a self-proclaimed Baratheon. Last season Tywin said "Anyone who has to say 'I am the King' is no true king" and Joeffrey responds straight to his face with "My REAL father won the war while you hid away in Casterly Rock!" which gives Tywin the motive to kill him since he can no longer be controlled. Last season Tywin was also scolding his daughter Cersie about losing control of Joeffrey and when she asks if he is going to get her son under control Tywin responds with "I will" which happens right at the end. Tywin gives Jaime a Valerian sword. Tywin wants Jaime to sit in Casterly Rock but Jaime won't leave the King's Guard because of his son Joeffrey. If Joeffrey is dead, Jaime has no more reason to stay in the capital and can return to Casterly Rock. Here Tywin speaks with Olenna Tyrell about the marraiges. Interesting to point out that Tywin claims that Joeffrey and Margery's children would inherit High Garden and not King's Landing. Does Tywin have other plans for who will rule King's Landing?
Tywin Lannister gets what he wants.
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On April 15 2014 23:55 urboss wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 15 2014 23:15 Mikau wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2014 21:11 urboss wrote:On April 15 2014 20:48 Mikau wrote:On April 15 2014 16:06 urboss wrote:On April 15 2014 01:38 Yoav wrote:
Okay, so a lot of speculation that the Tyrells did it. But if Westeros is following usual western Europe succession rules:
1) Younger brother (Tommen?) is now king, though under the age of maturity and therefore using a regent.
2) Queen SarahConnor/Gorgia probably goes back to being regent, but it does depend on regency laws, which vary. Tywin probably gets to pick if there is any picking.
3) Tywin remains Hand (based on Ned Stark remaining hand even after a succession, until removal from the role).
4) Margery becomes a whole lot of nothing. Maybe keeps a Princess title, or some other ceremonial title, depending on how they hand those out, but no technical power whatsoever. I really don't see what she would gain from the marriage. Marriage doesn't make queens co-rulers under Westerosi law... they're just consorts. And even then, we were told earlier on in this show that consumation is necessary to count as a proper marriage. Only case I can imagine is if they want a marriage with Tommen (same deal, less insanity), and wanted to kill Joff before consumation so Westerosi incest laws don't prohibit the marriage (and allow them to avoid a Catherine of Aragon style mess).
5) Balon Greyjoy would do well to turn down wedding invitations for the forseeable future. So why would Lady Olenna want to kill the king, if her granddaughter Margaery doesn't gain anything from it? Is she plotting against her own granddaughter? They made it abundantly clear that the crown/Lannisters can't afford everything that's going on and the oncoming winter (at least, that's what I'd guess the significance was of all the time spent discussing splitting the bill of the wedding and how much is owed the Iron Bank of Braavos). The Lannisters still need both the money and army of the Tyrells. Ok, King Joffrey is dead. Tommen is the new King, but he is underaged. That means, for a couple more years, Cersei will be the Queen Regent. How do the Tyrell fit into this picture? You are saying that the Lannisters need the Tyrell because of money, which makes sense. However, are the Lannisters going to give up the throne just because of those money issues? What's stopping the Tyrells from withdrawing their support if Cersei was straight up made queen regent? Why would Cersei even be the most logical candidate for the job if Margaery was just made queen? Ok, let's consider this is the case and Margaery is made Queen Regent. She will stay at this position for a few years until Tommen is King. At that point Margaery would have to marry Tommen to stay on the throne. All of this would have been much easier for the Tyrells if Joffrey had been killed AFTER Margaery had conceived Joffrey's child. In this case, they would have kept the throne automatically. This killing doesn't make much sense to me, especially in this settings, namely right after the wedding. The only explanation I can find is the following: Margaery didn't know of the poisoning and her grandma Olenna is planning on screwing her over. If Margaery's brother Loras Tyrell marries Cersei Lannister and they have a son, the Tyrell would get the throne.+ Show Spoiler +
In light of this, the conversation between Loras and Jamie at the wedding also makes more sense:
Jamie: "Your sister looks very beautiful!"
Loras: "As does yours!"
Jamie: "So, looking forward to your wedding?"
Loras: "Yes, very much."
Jamie: "Our fathers are rather keen on the prospect."
Loras: "They certainly are"
Jamie: "Perhaps they should get married. - [PAUSE] - If you were to marry Cersei, she’d murder you in your sleep. If you manage to put a child in her, she’ll murder it long before it takes its first breath. Luckily for you, none of this is will happen, because she'll never marry you."
Monarchies don't work this way (in the real world, GoT surely isnt different). Only children, brothers/sisters and other relatives by blood of a king/queen can become its legitimate successor. Children of Loras and Cersei would be unrelated to Robert in any way (this also apllies to Joffrey/Tommen/Myrcella, but officially they are Roberts children) and therefore have no place in the line of succession. Only one person is a ruler in a monarchy, even if the wife of king is called queen, this is NOT the same as being a "ruling" queen, i.e. being the head of state. Cersei always was the former, therefore only her (official) children by Robert can become Kings/ "ruling" queens.
On April 16 2014 00:13 Ghost-z wrote:
Here Tywin speaks with Olenna Tyrell about the marraiges. Interesting to point out that Tywin claims that Joeffrey and Margery's children would inherit High Garden and not King's Landing. Does Tywin have other plans for who will rule King's Landing? .
He says that in sense the children would inherit High Garden not instead, but in addition to kings landing. But also he states that this would only happen if Loras had no children of his own; i.e. if Loras has children, they will inherit High Garden. Kings Landing not ruled by the King (unless he's too young to rule)? Unthinkable.
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On April 16 2014 00:14 Mafe wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2014 23:55 urboss wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 15 2014 23:15 Mikau wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2014 21:11 urboss wrote:On April 15 2014 20:48 Mikau wrote:On April 15 2014 16:06 urboss wrote:On April 15 2014 01:38 Yoav wrote:
Okay, so a lot of speculation that the Tyrells did it. But if Westeros is following usual western Europe succession rules:
1) Younger brother (Tommen?) is now king, though under the age of maturity and therefore using a regent.
2) Queen SarahConnor/Gorgia probably goes back to being regent, but it does depend on regency laws, which vary. Tywin probably gets to pick if there is any picking.
3) Tywin remains Hand (based on Ned Stark remaining hand even after a succession, until removal from the role).
4) Margery becomes a whole lot of nothing. Maybe keeps a Princess title, or some other ceremonial title, depending on how they hand those out, but no technical power whatsoever. I really don't see what she would gain from the marriage. Marriage doesn't make queens co-rulers under Westerosi law... they're just consorts. And even then, we were told earlier on in this show that consumation is necessary to count as a proper marriage. Only case I can imagine is if they want a marriage with Tommen (same deal, less insanity), and wanted to kill Joff before consumation so Westerosi incest laws don't prohibit the marriage (and allow them to avoid a Catherine of Aragon style mess).
5) Balon Greyjoy would do well to turn down wedding invitations for the forseeable future. So why would Lady Olenna want to kill the king, if her granddaughter Margaery doesn't gain anything from it? Is she plotting against her own granddaughter? They made it abundantly clear that the crown/Lannisters can't afford everything that's going on and the oncoming winter (at least, that's what I'd guess the significance was of all the time spent discussing splitting the bill of the wedding and how much is owed the Iron Bank of Braavos). The Lannisters still need both the money and army of the Tyrells. Ok, King Joffrey is dead. Tommen is the new King, but he is underaged. That means, for a couple more years, Cersei will be the Queen Regent. How do the Tyrell fit into this picture? You are saying that the Lannisters need the Tyrell because of money, which makes sense. However, are the Lannisters going to give up the throne just because of those money issues? What's stopping the Tyrells from withdrawing their support if Cersei was straight up made queen regent? Why would Cersei even be the most logical candidate for the job if Margaery was just made queen? Ok, let's consider this is the case and Margaery is made Queen Regent. She will stay at this position for a few years until Tommen is King. At that point Margaery would have to marry Tommen to stay on the throne. All of this would have been much easier for the Tyrells if Joffrey had been killed AFTER Margaery had conceived Joffrey's child. In this case, they would have kept the throne automatically. This killing doesn't make much sense to me, especially in this settings, namely right after the wedding. The only explanation I can find is the following: Margaery didn't know of the poisoning and her grandma Olenna is planning on screwing her over. If Margaery's brother Loras Tyrell marries Cersei Lannister and they have a son, the Tyrell would get the throne.+ Show Spoiler +
In light of this, the conversation between Loras and Jamie at the wedding also makes more sense:
Jamie: "Your sister looks very beautiful!"
Loras: "As does yours!"
Jamie: "So, looking forward to your wedding?"
Loras: "Yes, very much."
Jamie: "Our fathers are rather keen on the prospect."
Loras: "They certainly are"
Jamie: "Perhaps they should get married. - [PAUSE] - If you were to marry Cersei, she’d murder you in your sleep. If you manage to put a child in her, she’ll murder it long before it takes its first breath. Luckily for you, none of this is will happen, because she'll never marry you."
Monarchies don't work this way (in the real world, GoT surely isnt different). Only children, brothers/sisters and other relatives by blood of a king/queen can become its legitimate successor. Children of Loras and Cersei would be unrelated to Robert in any way (this also apllies to Joffrey/Tommen/Myrcella, but officially they are Roberts children) and therefore have no place in the line of succession. Only one person is a ruler in a monarchy, even if the wife of king is called queen, this is NOT the same as being a "ruling" queen, i.e. being the head of state. Cersei always was the former, therefore only her (official) children by Robert can become Kings/ "ruling" queens.
You are right!
So what if the Tyrrell have prove that Tommen and Myrcella are not Robert's children?
Who would get the throne then? Wouldn't it go back to Cersei?
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Then it would likely go to whom ever has the most swords. It would also be proof that Cersie betrayed her husband the King with an extra-marital affair.
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On April 16 2014 00:23 urboss wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2014 00:14 Mafe wrote:On April 15 2014 23:55 urboss wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 15 2014 23:15 Mikau wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2014 21:11 urboss wrote:On April 15 2014 20:48 Mikau wrote:On April 15 2014 16:06 urboss wrote:On April 15 2014 01:38 Yoav wrote:
Okay, so a lot of speculation that the Tyrells did it. But if Westeros is following usual western Europe succession rules:
1) Younger brother (Tommen?) is now king, though under the age of maturity and therefore using a regent.
2) Queen SarahConnor/Gorgia probably goes back to being regent, but it does depend on regency laws, which vary. Tywin probably gets to pick if there is any picking.
3) Tywin remains Hand (based on Ned Stark remaining hand even after a succession, until removal from the role).
4) Margery becomes a whole lot of nothing. Maybe keeps a Princess title, or some other ceremonial title, depending on how they hand those out, but no technical power whatsoever. I really don't see what she would gain from the marriage. Marriage doesn't make queens co-rulers under Westerosi law... they're just consorts. And even then, we were told earlier on in this show that consumation is necessary to count as a proper marriage. Only case I can imagine is if they want a marriage with Tommen (same deal, less insanity), and wanted to kill Joff before consumation so Westerosi incest laws don't prohibit the marriage (and allow them to avoid a Catherine of Aragon style mess).
5) Balon Greyjoy would do well to turn down wedding invitations for the forseeable future. So why would Lady Olenna want to kill the king, if her granddaughter Margaery doesn't gain anything from it? Is she plotting against her own granddaughter? They made it abundantly clear that the crown/Lannisters can't afford everything that's going on and the oncoming winter (at least, that's what I'd guess the significance was of all the time spent discussing splitting the bill of the wedding and how much is owed the Iron Bank of Braavos). The Lannisters still need both the money and army of the Tyrells. Ok, King Joffrey is dead. Tommen is the new King, but he is underaged. That means, for a couple more years, Cersei will be the Queen Regent. How do the Tyrell fit into this picture? You are saying that the Lannisters need the Tyrell because of money, which makes sense. However, are the Lannisters going to give up the throne just because of those money issues? What's stopping the Tyrells from withdrawing their support if Cersei was straight up made queen regent? Why would Cersei even be the most logical candidate for the job if Margaery was just made queen? Ok, let's consider this is the case and Margaery is made Queen Regent. She will stay at this position for a few years until Tommen is King. At that point Margaery would have to marry Tommen to stay on the throne. All of this would have been much easier for the Tyrells if Joffrey had been killed AFTER Margaery had conceived Joffrey's child. In this case, they would have kept the throne automatically. This killing doesn't make much sense to me, especially in this settings, namely right after the wedding. The only explanation I can find is the following: Margaery didn't know of the poisoning and her grandma Olenna is planning on screwing her over. If Margaery's brother Loras Tyrell marries Cersei Lannister and they have a son, the Tyrell would get the throne.+ Show Spoiler +
In light of this, the conversation between Loras and Jamie at the wedding also makes more sense:
Jamie: "Your sister looks very beautiful!"
Loras: "As does yours!"
Jamie: "So, looking forward to your wedding?"
Loras: "Yes, very much."
Jamie: "Our fathers are rather keen on the prospect."
Loras: "They certainly are"
Jamie: "Perhaps they should get married. - [PAUSE] - If you were to marry Cersei, she’d murder you in your sleep. If you manage to put a child in her, she’ll murder it long before it takes its first breath. Luckily for you, none of this is will happen, because she'll never marry you."
Monarchies don't work this way (in the real world, GoT surely isnt different). Only children, brothers/sisters and other relatives by blood of a king/queen can become its legitimate successor. Children of Loras and Cersei would be unrelated to Robert in any way (this also apllies to Joffrey/Tommen/Myrcella, but officially they are Roberts children) and therefore have no place in the line of succession. Only one person is a ruler in a monarchy, even if the wife of king is called queen, this is NOT the same as being a "ruling" queen, i.e. being the head of state. Cersei always was the former, therefore only her (official) children by Robert can become Kings/ "ruling" queens. You are right! So what if the Tyrrell have prove that Tommen and Myrcella are not Robert's children? Who would get the throne then? Wouldn't it go back to Cersei?
well, stannis the man is still the rightful king and the only reason he isn't sitting on the throne is that nobody can proof that the Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella aren't Robert's kids :O
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I thought it was clear that all the noble houses in Westeros have heard the rumors and most of the people believe them to be true. They know none of the children are Robert's but so far everyone with an army big enough to conquer King's Landing is either dead or defeated so it's not like their's a whole lot they could do unless they poison the King or something.
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On April 16 2014 00:13 Ghost-z wrote:
My friends and I were discussing this last night with our different theories while re-watching the episode. I should first say that none of us have read the books and secondly we all agree that the poison had to be in the pie, not the wine. He takes a few sips of wine during the play, spits it partly out while laughing but we hardly believe that was his only sip of wine. Joeffrey would be the first to eat the pie for sure because he's the King and it's his wedding. There is also foreshadowing of his death when they show the dead birds inside the cake.
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Here Tywin speaks with Olenna Tyrell about the marraiges. Interesting to point out that Tywin claims that Joeffrey and Margery's children would inherit High Garden and not King's Landing. Does Tywin have other plans for who will rule King's Landing?
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Except the wine doesnt need to be poisoned to begin with, his cup can be poisoned, he lets it out of his hand quite frequently, at least 3 other people we see handle his cup.
Tywin says if Loras is drafted to the Kingsguard, then the continuation of the Tyrell line would continue on the female line, meaning Margery's children would inherit Highgarden too. Ofc their firsborn son would have been the heir to the throne, but 2nd or 3rd sons would habve inherited Highgarden in that case.
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I have not read the books but i think Tywin or The Spider or Margeary and company are the only closest one who would do this. Just my assumption though.
I am just super glad JOEFFRY IS DEAD :D
Poor Tyrion though .. another struggle for him being set up again. He is supposed to be the smart guy.
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How do you poison a cup? He clearly fills it with wine then dumps it out on Tyrion. Wouldn't that rinse out any poison?
The Spider is Lord Varys correct?
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EPT
