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All book discussion in this thread is now allowed. |
On April 08 2014 19:52 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2014 18:45 Lord Tolkien wrote:On April 08 2014 16:57 KlaCkoN wrote:On April 08 2014 16:47 sc2holar wrote:On April 08 2014 16:38 KlaCkoN wrote:On April 08 2014 13:15 Spaylz wrote:On April 08 2014 12:51 Sub40APM wrote:On April 08 2014 11:23 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On April 08 2014 08:21 Sub40APM wrote:On April 08 2014 08:18 Darkhorse wrote:
[quote]
If you obsess about mistakes made by book/tv/movie characters you are going to drive yourself insane. I am not obssessing about it, I am just explaining that Game of Thrones stacks the deck against the good guys, then strings the viewers along by giving us great secondary characters like Arya/Davos/Tyrion I don't think so. They're given a fair shot but they don't auto-win because they're the 'good guys'. GoT isn't a story about the good and noble Starks defeating the wicked Lannisters. And even if it was, it would be pretty pathetic if the Lannisters were defeated at every turn like team Rocket. Since the reverse of that happened to the Starks the only difference is what, this is 'more realistic'? More realistic would be the three unwarring houses just sitting this out and then coming in and taking everyone out, not the Starks needing to be perfect at every turn just to stay even before being felled by a series of comical betrayals. And what do you think Lysa Arryn is doing in the Vale? Her troops are fresh and unscathed. We don't know her intentions, she's batshit crazy. Most of the horrors that have happened to the Starks can be blamed on two things: 1) Bad decision making (Ned going to King's Landing, Catelyn freeing Jaime, Robb breaking his betrothal to Lord Frey's daughter) 2) Opportunistic and rather unbelievably cruel people (Littlefinger, Lord Frey & Lord Bolton mostly) No fantasy story is completely realistic, but as far as GoT goes, it's pretty damn good. Of course, the Starks are the good guys, but they don't suffer because of that. They suffer because of the consequences of their actions, and because of their faulty views of the world they live in. Less bad decisions and more "suddenly: magic demon shadow baby". Seriously the Starks would have gotten everything they wanted if not for that little detail. At least if Tywin was in someway responsible for that plot he could get some credit. But no, he wasn't even aware, his entire little empire was saved from certain doom unbeknownst to him by a completely magical fluke in an otherwise fairly unmagical universe. At least Danny had to deal with being a sex slave and walk into fires and otherwise work for her magical freebies, Tywin gets them for free without even knowing about it =p. Tywin broke Stannis and arranged the red wedding. Stannis could be broken all he wanted, if not for "but suddenly demons" it would not have mattered. Don't get me wrong, I like the show a lot. I just think Tywin gets way too much credit for being "smart" and "rational" and "suitably ruthless" when the only reason he and his family aren't all dead is because magic he had nothing to do with :p Renly was the on who actually made all the right decisions, and if the show was allowed to just play out according to the initial setup he would have been king, Rob would have gone home to be king or warden or whatever the fuck of the north the lannisters would all be dead and danny would have been raped to death by a dothraki or 5 after Drogos passing. Was there any indication that Renly was going to allow Robb to declare independence? As I recall, right before he died Renly told Catelyn that Robb can call himself King of the North all he liked as long as he bent the knee to Renly after he took the throne. EDIT: Also, daaaaang the Dany hate. Besides, if am not mistaken, Renly was a single person in Kings Landing who gave real advices to Ned, and seems like he saw a good ally in Starks, even tho Renly was a gay, but he definetely was a good person, and a person whom u can trust. Both Ned and Robb made the same mistake rejecting Renly's offer and help. Oh...dat Starks honor and justice... P.S. strange for me that so many ppl are underestimating Tyrell family, they are second richest family in Westeros, and their goals are pretty clear, but their methods very accurate and precise.
You are highly overestimating Renly. Renly was a green boy, and he didn't have someone like Ned to teach him about strategy and commanding an army, unlike Robb. Yes, he had the numbers and the loyalty of many people, but that isn't always enough.
Renly also wasn't a "good person", he offered Ned to help him because he wanted to take the throne over his elder brother. What Renly did was out of greed, nothing more. Granted, if Stannis was less stubborn, and got in line behind Renly, then yeah, the war would have been over in two days. But even still, I would have had very little faith in Renly as a leader and a commander. While the realm was starting to tear itself apart, he was organizing tournaments and celebrating every night.
Although overall yes, the Shadow is awfully convenient. Then again, Renly had way too much going for him. Besides, I think you're either wrong about Tywin, or you're confusing Tywin and Stannis. If Renly had not died, he would have had to battle it out with Stannis, and while Stannis was greatly outnumbered, he's still not really someone you mess with. Tywin was counting on the Baratheon brothers fighting each other to buy him time to react and defend King's Landing from the imminent attack.
Ned refused Renly because he wanted to put Stannis on the throne, the rightful heir. Robb didn't refuse Renly as far as I know, the offer he made didn't have time to go through since Renly died before it mattered.
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Zurich15355 Posts
Also Renly was shown sitting in the South with his huge army enjoying summer too much and holding tournaments. it wasn't like he was set to march on King's Landing any time soon. He didn't seem to have any strategy besides "I have the most men". Had he not been killed it's entirely possible he would have lost his advantage in some other way, being completely inexperienced in warfare and supported only by the "ponderous oaf" Mace who is said to be an equally inept wartime leader.
Bottom line with all the variable at play it's too easy to say that without the death of Renly the Lannisters would have been doomed.
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On April 08 2014 19:55 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2014 19:52 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:On April 08 2014 18:45 Lord Tolkien wrote:On April 08 2014 16:57 KlaCkoN wrote:On April 08 2014 16:47 sc2holar wrote:On April 08 2014 16:38 KlaCkoN wrote:On April 08 2014 13:15 Spaylz wrote:On April 08 2014 12:51 Sub40APM wrote:On April 08 2014 11:23 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On April 08 2014 08:21 Sub40APM wrote:
[quote]
I am not obssessing about it, I am just explaining that Game of Thrones stacks the deck against the good guys, then strings the viewers along by giving us great secondary characters like Arya/Davos/Tyrion I don't think so. They're given a fair shot but they don't auto-win because they're the 'good guys'. GoT isn't a story about the good and noble Starks defeating the wicked Lannisters. And even if it was, it would be pretty pathetic if the Lannisters were defeated at every turn like team Rocket. Since the reverse of that happened to the Starks the only difference is what, this is 'more realistic'? More realistic would be the three unwarring houses just sitting this out and then coming in and taking everyone out, not the Starks needing to be perfect at every turn just to stay even before being felled by a series of comical betrayals. And what do you think Lysa Arryn is doing in the Vale? Her troops are fresh and unscathed. We don't know her intentions, she's batshit crazy. Most of the horrors that have happened to the Starks can be blamed on two things: 1) Bad decision making (Ned going to King's Landing, Catelyn freeing Jaime, Robb breaking his betrothal to Lord Frey's daughter) 2) Opportunistic and rather unbelievably cruel people (Littlefinger, Lord Frey & Lord Bolton mostly) No fantasy story is completely realistic, but as far as GoT goes, it's pretty damn good. Of course, the Starks are the good guys, but they don't suffer because of that. They suffer because of the consequences of their actions, and because of their faulty views of the world they live in. Less bad decisions and more "suddenly: magic demon shadow baby". Seriously the Starks would have gotten everything they wanted if not for that little detail. At least if Tywin was in someway responsible for that plot he could get some credit. But no, he wasn't even aware, his entire little empire was saved from certain doom unbeknownst to him by a completely magical fluke in an otherwise fairly unmagical universe. At least Danny had to deal with being a sex slave and walk into fires and otherwise work for her magical freebies, Tywin gets them for free without even knowing about it =p. Tywin broke Stannis and arranged the red wedding. Stannis could be broken all he wanted, if not for "but suddenly demons" it would not have mattered. Don't get me wrong, I like the show a lot. I just think Tywin gets way too much credit for being "smart" and "rational" and "suitably ruthless" when the only reason he and his family aren't all dead is because magic he had nothing to do with :p Renly was the on who actually made all the right decisions, and if the show was allowed to just play out according to the initial setup he would have been king, Rob would have gone home to be king or warden or whatever the fuck of the north the lannisters would all be dead and danny would have been raped to death by a dothraki or 5 after Drogos passing. Was there any indication that Renly was going to allow Robb to declare independence? As I recall, right before he died Renly told Catelyn that Robb can call himself King of the North all he liked as long as he bent the knee to Renly after he took the throne. EDIT: Also, daaaaang the Dany hate. Besides, if am not mistaken, Renly was a single person in Kings Landing who gave real advices to Ned, and seems like he saw a good ally in Starks, even tho Renly was a gay, but he definetely was a good person, and a person whom u can trust. Both Ned and Robb made the same mistake rejecting Renly's offer and help. Oh...dat Starks honor and justice... Lol, I hope this is just your bad English because this reads gays are normally bad people but Renly was good.
I have nothing against gays (as a bisexual i probably fall under that particular umbrella term) but it was an issue for Renly as he had a hard time securing an heir. In the context of being a king were there is quite an emphasis on breeding and securing the family line, being a homosexual is in fact a real handicap. Heck, Edward II of England was gruesomley murdered just for being gay.
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On April 08 2014 21:28 Spaylz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2014 19:52 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:On April 08 2014 18:45 Lord Tolkien wrote:On April 08 2014 16:57 KlaCkoN wrote:On April 08 2014 16:47 sc2holar wrote:On April 08 2014 16:38 KlaCkoN wrote:On April 08 2014 13:15 Spaylz wrote:On April 08 2014 12:51 Sub40APM wrote:On April 08 2014 11:23 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On April 08 2014 08:21 Sub40APM wrote:
[quote]
I am not obssessing about it, I am just explaining that Game of Thrones stacks the deck against the good guys, then strings the viewers along by giving us great secondary characters like Arya/Davos/Tyrion I don't think so. They're given a fair shot but they don't auto-win because they're the 'good guys'. GoT isn't a story about the good and noble Starks defeating the wicked Lannisters. And even if it was, it would be pretty pathetic if the Lannisters were defeated at every turn like team Rocket. Since the reverse of that happened to the Starks the only difference is what, this is 'more realistic'? More realistic would be the three unwarring houses just sitting this out and then coming in and taking everyone out, not the Starks needing to be perfect at every turn just to stay even before being felled by a series of comical betrayals. And what do you think Lysa Arryn is doing in the Vale? Her troops are fresh and unscathed. We don't know her intentions, she's batshit crazy. Most of the horrors that have happened to the Starks can be blamed on two things: 1) Bad decision making (Ned going to King's Landing, Catelyn freeing Jaime, Robb breaking his betrothal to Lord Frey's daughter) 2) Opportunistic and rather unbelievably cruel people (Littlefinger, Lord Frey & Lord Bolton mostly) No fantasy story is completely realistic, but as far as GoT goes, it's pretty damn good. Of course, the Starks are the good guys, but they don't suffer because of that. They suffer because of the consequences of their actions, and because of their faulty views of the world they live in. Less bad decisions and more "suddenly: magic demon shadow baby". Seriously the Starks would have gotten everything they wanted if not for that little detail. At least if Tywin was in someway responsible for that plot he could get some credit. But no, he wasn't even aware, his entire little empire was saved from certain doom unbeknownst to him by a completely magical fluke in an otherwise fairly unmagical universe. At least Danny had to deal with being a sex slave and walk into fires and otherwise work for her magical freebies, Tywin gets them for free without even knowing about it =p. Tywin broke Stannis and arranged the red wedding. Stannis could be broken all he wanted, if not for "but suddenly demons" it would not have mattered. Don't get me wrong, I like the show a lot. I just think Tywin gets way too much credit for being "smart" and "rational" and "suitably ruthless" when the only reason he and his family aren't all dead is because magic he had nothing to do with :p Renly was the on who actually made all the right decisions, and if the show was allowed to just play out according to the initial setup he would have been king, Rob would have gone home to be king or warden or whatever the fuck of the north the lannisters would all be dead and danny would have been raped to death by a dothraki or 5 after Drogos passing. Was there any indication that Renly was going to allow Robb to declare independence? As I recall, right before he died Renly told Catelyn that Robb can call himself King of the North all he liked as long as he bent the knee to Renly after he took the throne. EDIT: Also, daaaaang the Dany hate. Besides, if am not mistaken, Renly was a single person in Kings Landing who gave real advices to Ned, and seems like he saw a good ally in Starks, even tho Renly was a gay, but he definetely was a good person, and a person whom u can trust. Both Ned and Robb made the same mistake rejecting Renly's offer and help. Oh...dat Starks honor and justice... P.S. strange for me that so many ppl are underestimating Tyrell family, they are second richest family in Westeros, and their goals are pretty clear, but their methods very accurate and precise. You are highly overestimating Renly. Renly was a green boy, and he didn't have someone like Ned to teach him about strategy and commanding an army, unlike Robb. Yes, he had the numbers and the loyalty of many people, but that isn't always enough. Renly also wasn't a "good person", he offered Ned to help him because he wanted to take the throne over his elder brother. What Renly did was out of greed, nothing more. Granted, if Stannis was less stubborn, and got in line behind Renly, then yeah, the war would have been over in two days. But even still, I would have had very little faith in Renly as a leader and a commander. While the realm was starting to tear itself apart, he was organizing tournaments and celebrating every night. Although overall yes, the Shadow is awfully convenient. Then again, Renly had way too much going for him. Besides, I think you're either wrong about Tywin, or you're confusing Tywin and Stannis. If Renly had not died, he would have had to battle it out with Stannis, and while Stannis was greatly outnumbered, he's still not really someone you mess with. Tywin was counting on the Baratheon brothers fighting each other to buy him time to react and defend King's Landing from the imminent attack. Ned refused Renly because he wanted to put Stannis on the throne, the rightful heir. Robb didn't refuse Renly as far as I know, the offer he made didn't have time to go through since Renly died before it mattered.
Good point. Seems like I forgot that Renly died before things could go better. Am not confusing Tywin and Stannis, personally for me, Tywin looks as the best leader left in Westeros, good politican and a real father of Lannister family,his goals are simple, just to make their family stronger, and I don't rly think he should be considered as "bad character" he is also grey(cause we do also making everything to get our family stronger irl?), and all the Lannisters are grey except Joffrey(not mentioning young Lannister cousing since they don't have any particular role by themselves). Stannis is too annoying for me, through all the seasons he is being affected by witch, on the ohter hand he is the only person who shits about white walkers for now. Although he would be much worse if Sir Davos could be executed. Sir Davos is the whitest blur in Stannis castle.
Yes, Nedd was a great warrior and leader. But he didn't knew how to play game of thrones. Little finger says that, or Sersei? Renly was relativly smart but young, who knows what kind of king he could become eventually. But having Renly as a king and Nedd as a hand of king, I think it would be a perfect duo.
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Tywin would make the best king out of any man alive in westeros. He served as Hand of the King during the mad king for what, 10-20 years and was very highly regarded by most of the country?
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Damn we got some good discussions going on here.
I agree with the whole demon shadow baby thing being off-putting - mainly because it's shoving magic in our faces in a world that largely airs on the side of realism (yes there are ice zombies and dragons but they're not that prominent). It introduces a lot of logical problems like why don't they create more shadow demons. Or even if there's some artificial constraints on that front, why not recruit more red women? We can go on and on... I prefer a more subtle interplay of the supernatural.
If the show had Renly murdered some other way, I think I'd be more OK with that plot device to get everything rolling.
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On April 08 2014 19:52 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2014 18:45 Lord Tolkien wrote:On April 08 2014 16:57 KlaCkoN wrote:On April 08 2014 16:47 sc2holar wrote:On April 08 2014 16:38 KlaCkoN wrote:On April 08 2014 13:15 Spaylz wrote:On April 08 2014 12:51 Sub40APM wrote:On April 08 2014 11:23 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On April 08 2014 08:21 Sub40APM wrote:On April 08 2014 08:18 Darkhorse wrote:
[quote]
If you obsess about mistakes made by book/tv/movie characters you are going to drive yourself insane. I am not obssessing about it, I am just explaining that Game of Thrones stacks the deck against the good guys, then strings the viewers along by giving us great secondary characters like Arya/Davos/Tyrion I don't think so. They're given a fair shot but they don't auto-win because they're the 'good guys'. GoT isn't a story about the good and noble Starks defeating the wicked Lannisters. And even if it was, it would be pretty pathetic if the Lannisters were defeated at every turn like team Rocket. Since the reverse of that happened to the Starks the only difference is what, this is 'more realistic'? More realistic would be the three unwarring houses just sitting this out and then coming in and taking everyone out, not the Starks needing to be perfect at every turn just to stay even before being felled by a series of comical betrayals. And what do you think Lysa Arryn is doing in the Vale? Her troops are fresh and unscathed. We don't know her intentions, she's batshit crazy. Most of the horrors that have happened to the Starks can be blamed on two things: 1) Bad decision making (Ned going to King's Landing, Catelyn freeing Jaime, Robb breaking his betrothal to Lord Frey's daughter) 2) Opportunistic and rather unbelievably cruel people (Littlefinger, Lord Frey & Lord Bolton mostly) No fantasy story is completely realistic, but as far as GoT goes, it's pretty damn good. Of course, the Starks are the good guys, but they don't suffer because of that. They suffer because of the consequences of their actions, and because of their faulty views of the world they live in. Less bad decisions and more "suddenly: magic demon shadow baby". Seriously the Starks would have gotten everything they wanted if not for that little detail. At least if Tywin was in someway responsible for that plot he could get some credit. But no, he wasn't even aware, his entire little empire was saved from certain doom unbeknownst to him by a completely magical fluke in an otherwise fairly unmagical universe. At least Danny had to deal with being a sex slave and walk into fires and otherwise work for her magical freebies, Tywin gets them for free without even knowing about it =p. Tywin broke Stannis and arranged the red wedding. Stannis could be broken all he wanted, if not for "but suddenly demons" it would not have mattered. Don't get me wrong, I like the show a lot. I just think Tywin gets way too much credit for being "smart" and "rational" and "suitably ruthless" when the only reason he and his family aren't all dead is because magic he had nothing to do with :p Renly was the on who actually made all the right decisions, and if the show was allowed to just play out according to the initial setup he would have been king, Rob would have gone home to be king or warden or whatever the fuck of the north the lannisters would all be dead and danny would have been raped to death by a dothraki or 5 after Drogos passing. Was there any indication that Renly was going to allow Robb to declare independence? As I recall, right before he died Renly told Catelyn that Robb can call himself King of the North all he liked as long as he bent the knee to Renly after he took the throne. EDIT: Also, daaaaang the Dany hate. Besides, if am not mistaken, Renly was a single person in Kings Landing who gave real advices to Ned, and seems like he saw a good ally in Starks, even tho Renly was a gay, but he definetely was a good person, and a person whom u can trust. Both Ned and Robb made the same mistake rejecting Renly's offer and help. Oh...dat Starks honor and justice... P.S. strange for me that so many ppl are underestimating Tyrell family, they are second richest family in Westeros, and their goals are pretty clear, but their methods very accurate and precise.
The fuck dude? What does being gay matter to a person being good or bad?
Edit saw that you already answered to that sorry m8
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Pretty sure the shadow baby wasn't a freebie. Isn't there some sort of life drain thingy as cost for birthing that thing.
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No I get that. I'm just saying the logical extension should have been:
Stannis: "So uh, what else can you do? And where can we get more of you?"
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On April 08 2014 23:24 ShadeR wrote:
Pretty sure the shadow baby wasn't a freebie. Isn't there some sort of life drain thingy as cost for birthing that thing.
ya that was the whole kings blood stuff. Stannis wasn't strong enough anymore so they got that bastard that davos let go. Cant remember his name.
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Yes, the problem is the lack of king's blood, not the need for more red priest/priestests, as far as doing things like that.
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On April 08 2014 23:32 c0ldfusion wrote:
No I get that. I'm just saying the logical extension should have been:
Stannis: "So uh, what else can you do? And where can we get more of you?"
Young blacksmith. Robert Baratheon's bastard blood been used by Melisandra. 3 leeches as I remember, one for "usurper Robb", one for "usurper Joffrey", and one for "usurper Balon Greyjoy".
So not only exactly Kings blood used as mana. It can be any bastard aswell.
Personaly for me it was strange when Stannis declared Robb as an usurper.
And I do remember the red woman told Arya about what color eyes she will shut forever. So she got some skills, although she was a bit schocked when she met those priest who rised a guy fighting vs Hound with flaming sword like a couple of times. Those priest might potentially be higher lvl than our red Witch :D
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On April 08 2014 22:21 sc2holar wrote:
Tywin would make the best king out of any man alive in westeros. He served as Hand of the King during the mad king for what, 10-20 years and was very highly regarded by most of the country?
He only cares about the glory of his dynasty though and not about the realm and even less about its inhabitants. After all he is the one responsible for the ravaging of the countryside, for the widespread burning and pillaging and raping.
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On April 08 2014 23:32 c0ldfusion wrote:
No I get that. I'm just saying the logical extension should have been:
Stannis: "So uh, what else can you do? And where can we get more of you?"
Well I am pretty sure you can also not create multiple Gandalfs or whatever. I doubt her power is very common.
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The other problem some people are forgetting for the Tyrell's is that with Renly they had most of the Baratheon bannermen on their side. With Renly's death, most switched over to Stannis, leaving the Tyrell's position significantly weaker than it previously was.
Robb already said he wasn't looking to pledge fealty to Renly in the first season when he was named King in the North. Renly wasn't looking to grant the north independence from "his" kingdom. There was a lot of work left to do to form an alliance there even if Renly hadn't been killed.
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On April 08 2014 23:45 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2014 23:32 c0ldfusion wrote:
No I get that. I'm just saying the logical extension should have been:
Stannis: "So uh, what else can you do? And where can we get more of you?" Young blacksmith. Robert Baratheon's bastard blood been used by Melisandra. 3 leeches as I remember, one for "usurper Robb", one for "usurper Joffrey", and one for "usurper Balon Greyjoy". So not only exactly Kings blood used as mana. It can be any bastard aswell. Personaly for me it was strange when Stannis declared Robb as an usurper. And I do remember the red woman told Arya about what color eyes she will shut forever. So she got some skills, although she was a bit schocked when she met those priest who rised a guy fighting vs Hound with flaming sword like a couple of times. Those priest might potentially be higher lvl than our red Witch :D
Well he did try to take half the kingdom away.
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On April 08 2014 23:45 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2014 23:32 c0ldfusion wrote:
No I get that. I'm just saying the logical extension should have been:
Stannis: "So uh, what else can you do? And where can we get more of you?" Young blacksmith. Robert Baratheon's bastard blood been used by Melisandra. 3 leeches as I remember, one for "usurper Robb", one for "usurper Joffrey", and one for "usurper Balon Greyjoy". So not only exactly Kings blood used as mana. It can be any bastard aswell. Personaly for me it was strange when Stannis declared Robb as an usurper. And I do remember the red woman told Arya about what color eyes she will shut forever. So she got some skills, although she was a bit schocked when she met those priest who rised a guy fighting vs Hound with flaming sword like a couple of times. Those priest might potentially be higher lvl than our red Witch :D
Yes, but all the other bastards were killed off that we know about. Robb was an usurper too since he was looking to gain independence as a king in his own right, rather than plege fealty to Stannis. We still don't even really know that the leeches did anything. Only Robb has died so far, and even if they all died, maybe she just saw that it was going to happen in the flames as she has shown the ability to see the future, rather than caused it to happen. It's hard to believe Robb's death at the Frey and Lannister's hands wouldn't have happened if not for the leeches.
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On April 08 2014 21:54 sc2holar wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2014 19:55 -Archangel- wrote:On April 08 2014 19:52 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:On April 08 2014 18:45 Lord Tolkien wrote:On April 08 2014 16:57 KlaCkoN wrote:On April 08 2014 16:47 sc2holar wrote:On April 08 2014 16:38 KlaCkoN wrote:On April 08 2014 13:15 Spaylz wrote:On April 08 2014 12:51 Sub40APM wrote:On April 08 2014 11:23 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
[quote]
I don't think so. They're given a fair shot but they don't auto-win because they're the 'good guys'. GoT isn't a story about the good and noble Starks defeating the wicked Lannisters. And even if it was, it would be pretty pathetic if the Lannisters were defeated at every turn like team Rocket. Since the reverse of that happened to the Starks the only difference is what, this is 'more realistic'? More realistic would be the three unwarring houses just sitting this out and then coming in and taking everyone out, not the Starks needing to be perfect at every turn just to stay even before being felled by a series of comical betrayals. And what do you think Lysa Arryn is doing in the Vale? Her troops are fresh and unscathed. We don't know her intentions, she's batshit crazy. Most of the horrors that have happened to the Starks can be blamed on two things: 1) Bad decision making (Ned going to King's Landing, Catelyn freeing Jaime, Robb breaking his betrothal to Lord Frey's daughter) 2) Opportunistic and rather unbelievably cruel people (Littlefinger, Lord Frey & Lord Bolton mostly) No fantasy story is completely realistic, but as far as GoT goes, it's pretty damn good. Of course, the Starks are the good guys, but they don't suffer because of that. They suffer because of the consequences of their actions, and because of their faulty views of the world they live in. Less bad decisions and more "suddenly: magic demon shadow baby". Seriously the Starks would have gotten everything they wanted if not for that little detail. At least if Tywin was in someway responsible for that plot he could get some credit. But no, he wasn't even aware, his entire little empire was saved from certain doom unbeknownst to him by a completely magical fluke in an otherwise fairly unmagical universe. At least Danny had to deal with being a sex slave and walk into fires and otherwise work for her magical freebies, Tywin gets them for free without even knowing about it =p. Tywin broke Stannis and arranged the red wedding. Stannis could be broken all he wanted, if not for "but suddenly demons" it would not have mattered. Don't get me wrong, I like the show a lot. I just think Tywin gets way too much credit for being "smart" and "rational" and "suitably ruthless" when the only reason he and his family aren't all dead is because magic he had nothing to do with :p Renly was the on who actually made all the right decisions, and if the show was allowed to just play out according to the initial setup he would have been king, Rob would have gone home to be king or warden or whatever the fuck of the north the lannisters would all be dead and danny would have been raped to death by a dothraki or 5 after Drogos passing. Was there any indication that Renly was going to allow Robb to declare independence? As I recall, right before he died Renly told Catelyn that Robb can call himself King of the North all he liked as long as he bent the knee to Renly after he took the throne. EDIT: Also, daaaaang the Dany hate. Besides, if am not mistaken, Renly was a single person in Kings Landing who gave real advices to Ned, and seems like he saw a good ally in Starks, even tho Renly was a gay, but he definetely was a good person, and a person whom u can trust. Both Ned and Robb made the same mistake rejecting Renly's offer and help. Oh...dat Starks honor and justice... Lol, I hope this is just your bad English because this reads gays are normally bad people but Renly was good. I have nothing against gays (as a bisexual i probably fall under that particular umbrella term) but it was an issue for Renly as he had a hard time securing an heir. In the context of being a king were there is quite an emphasis on breeding and securing the family line, being a homosexual is in fact a real handicap. Heck, Edward II of England was gruesomley murdered just for being gay.
In the conversation about good and evil 95% of people talk about today's standards of good/evil even when talking about medieval times. And by those standards being gay has nothing to do with good or evil.
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On April 08 2014 23:55 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2014 23:45 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:On April 08 2014 23:32 c0ldfusion wrote:
No I get that. I'm just saying the logical extension should have been:
Stannis: "So uh, what else can you do? And where can we get more of you?" Young blacksmith. Robert Baratheon's bastard blood been used by Melisandra. 3 leeches as I remember, one for "usurper Robb", one for "usurper Joffrey", and one for "usurper Balon Greyjoy". So not only exactly Kings blood used as mana. It can be any bastard aswell. Personaly for me it was strange when Stannis declared Robb as an usurper. And I do remember the red woman told Arya about what color eyes she will shut forever. So she got some skills, although she was a bit schocked when she met those priest who rised a guy fighting vs Hound with flaming sword like a couple of times. Those priest might potentially be higher lvl than our red Witch :D Well he did try to take half the kingdom away.
Considering that Robb's dad wish was to put Stannis on throne straight away, it was a real backstab. At least he could start a dialogue, instead of that he "killed" a real heir and lord of north, who didn't fucked about iron throne.
Although everybody thinks that Red wedding and Freys with Lannisters killed Robb, so technically Stannis is clean.
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On April 09 2014 00:00 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2014 23:55 -Archangel- wrote:On April 08 2014 23:45 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:On April 08 2014 23:32 c0ldfusion wrote:
No I get that. I'm just saying the logical extension should have been:
Stannis: "So uh, what else can you do? And where can we get more of you?" Young blacksmith. Robert Baratheon's bastard blood been used by Melisandra. 3 leeches as I remember, one for "usurper Robb", one for "usurper Joffrey", and one for "usurper Balon Greyjoy". So not only exactly Kings blood used as mana. It can be any bastard aswell. Personaly for me it was strange when Stannis declared Robb as an usurper. And I do remember the red woman told Arya about what color eyes she will shut forever. So she got some skills, although she was a bit schocked when she met those priest who rised a guy fighting vs Hound with flaming sword like a couple of times. Those priest might potentially be higher lvl than our red Witch :D Well he did try to take half the kingdom away. Considering that Robb's dad wish was to put Stannis on throne straight away, it was a real backstab. At least he could start a dialogue, instead of that he "killed" a real heir and lord of north, who didn't fucked about iron throne. Although everybody thinks that Red wedding and Freys with Lannisters killed Robb, so technically Stannis is clean.
Ned Stark did plan to have Stannis put on the throne, but that was obviously before he died and the North rose in open rebellion. If the objective of the war had stayed revenge and justice for Ned's death, and hadn't turned into a war for independence, Stannis probably would have been more than happy to ally the North. But instead they crowned Robb a king in his own right, which effectively removes half of the land from Stannis' potential realm. I think that's where he saw the problem.
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EPT
