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All book discussion in this thread is now allowed. |
United States30730 Posts
On April 08 2014 07:31 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2014 07:30 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 08 2014 07:21 KadaverBB wrote:On April 08 2014 07:15 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 08 2014 06:54 Sub40APM wrote:On April 08 2014 06:00 karazax wrote:
stuff Yes, I agree that the Good Guys keep making dumb mistakes. But thats how Martin likes to stack the deck. Which is why the Dornish never got involved in the war despite having every reason to hate Lannisters. No it is not, but i can't really tell more here.. Why make a post like this then? Just PM him if you want to talk about it. We don't need any more "hueheuheu I have read the books" posts like these  Fair enough i guess. This wasn't really meant as such, but i see where you are coming from. I just didn't like his generel approach, if you still think there are good and bad guys you probably don't understand the biggest theme in the whole series... Ya totally. The guy who just wanted to help his alcoholic friend after he was told by his sister in law that his other friend was murdered by a clan of incestuous, treasonous, child murdering, money lovers is on the same level as the previously mentioned money lovers.
Well yeah there's some guys who are going to be more associated with what the majority of people would consider "good" and those closer to "bad" just like in real life.
You have Eddard who's like the anomaly saintly character and then you've got Joffrey/Ramsay who are like the spawn of the devil.
But what of someone like Theon who's probably the hardest character in the series to associate with either category (I don't think his Greyjoy house name is a coincidence...).
Even among the Lannisters (which I think is what you're mentioning), yeah by and large they give off more of a villain vibe but it's still not quite that easy. Jaimie pushed a kid out a window and fucks his sister, but he's also a hero who's saved thousands. Cersei's a total bitch but she at least has some genuine compassion for her kids. Or hell, what about Tyrion? He clearly doesn't fit in with the rest of his family. Even Tywin has redeemable qualities despite being incredibly prideful and callous.
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On April 08 2014 07:48 Spaylz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2014 07:31 Sub40APM wrote:On April 08 2014 07:30 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 08 2014 07:21 KadaverBB wrote:On April 08 2014 07:15 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 08 2014 06:54 Sub40APM wrote:On April 08 2014 06:00 karazax wrote:
stuff Yes, I agree that the Good Guys keep making dumb mistakes. But thats how Martin likes to stack the deck. Which is why the Dornish never got involved in the war despite having every reason to hate Lannisters. No it is not, but i can't really tell more here.. Why make a post like this then? Just PM him if you want to talk about it. We don't need any more "hueheuheu I have read the books" posts like these Fair enough i guess. This wasn't really meant as such, but i see where you are coming from. I just didn't like his generel approach, if you still think there are good and bad guys you probably don't understand the biggest theme in the whole series... Ya totally. The guy who just wanted to help his alcoholic friend after he was told by his sister in law that his other friend was murdered by a clan of incestuous, treasonous, child murdering, money lovers is on the same level as the previously mentioned money lovers. His point wasn't that everyone is on the same level. His point is that most if not all characters are grey. There is no such thing as a clear separation between good and evil in GoT, and that is the real point of the series, as Martin stated himself. He doesn't believe in black and white characters, and he attempts to achieve realism by adding many layers to all characters, to the point that they all have good and evil in them. To quote the Davos/Melisandre exchange in S2: Melisandre: "Are you a good man, Ser Davos?" Davos: "I believe my parts are mixed, my lady. Good and bad". And because Davos is one of the best characters, he is right of course! (Yes, I know of Melisandre's response "If half an onion is black with rot, it's a rotten onion", but she is sort of a religious fanatic so..)
In the TV show its pretty obvious that Davos is a pure good guy: loves his king, saves the innocent, ready to die for the good. Which is why Martin repeatedly shafts him, kills his son and steals victory from him in the literally lamest way possible.
Litttlefinger: Well you Tyrells already rebelled against the crown, why not marry Joffrey instead?
Tyrells: Why dont we just chill here with our huge army and food while Stannis exhausts himself sacking King's Landing while Robb Stark chases Tywin around the West, then just show up and take it all? Or why dont we marry Sansa Stark to the gay one thus uniting 4 kingdoms against the Lannisters?
Littlefinger: GEORGE MARTIN COMPELS YOU
Tyrells: oh, you are right, this way where we have much less power is better than the easier, less costly way we outlined above but the Lannisters dont get murdered so I guess we have no choice but to help them out.
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United States23455 Posts
On April 08 2014 08:03 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2014 07:48 Spaylz wrote:On April 08 2014 07:31 Sub40APM wrote:On April 08 2014 07:30 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 08 2014 07:21 KadaverBB wrote:On April 08 2014 07:15 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 08 2014 06:54 Sub40APM wrote:On April 08 2014 06:00 karazax wrote:
stuff Yes, I agree that the Good Guys keep making dumb mistakes. But thats how Martin likes to stack the deck. Which is why the Dornish never got involved in the war despite having every reason to hate Lannisters. No it is not, but i can't really tell more here.. Why make a post like this then? Just PM him if you want to talk about it. We don't need any more "hueheuheu I have read the books" posts like these Fair enough i guess. This wasn't really meant as such, but i see where you are coming from. I just didn't like his generel approach, if you still think there are good and bad guys you probably don't understand the biggest theme in the whole series... Ya totally. The guy who just wanted to help his alcoholic friend after he was told by his sister in law that his other friend was murdered by a clan of incestuous, treasonous, child murdering, money lovers is on the same level as the previously mentioned money lovers. His point wasn't that everyone is on the same level. His point is that most if not all characters are grey. There is no such thing as a clear separation between good and evil in GoT, and that is the real point of the series, as Martin stated himself. He doesn't believe in black and white characters, and he attempts to achieve realism by adding many layers to all characters, to the point that they all have good and evil in them. To quote the Davos/Melisandre exchange in S2: Melisandre: "Are you a good man, Ser Davos?" Davos: "I believe my parts are mixed, my lady. Good and bad". And because Davos is one of the best characters, he is right of course! (Yes, I know of Melisandre's response "If half an onion is black with rot, it's a rotten onion", but she is sort of a religious fanatic so..) In the TV show its pretty obvious that Davos is a pure good guy: loves his king, saves the innocent, ready to die for the good. Which is why Martin repeatedly shafts him, kills his son and steals victory from him in the literally lamest way possible. Litttlefinger: Well you Tyrells already rebelled against the crown, why not marry Joffrey instead? Tyrells: Why dont we just chill here with our huge army and food while Stannis exhausts himself sacking King's Landing while Robb Stark chases Tywin around the West, then just show up and take it all? Or why dont we marry Sansa Stark to the gay one thus uniting 4 kingdoms against the Lannisters? Littlefinger: GEORGE MARTIN COMPELS YOU Tyrells: oh, you are right, this way where we have much less power is better than the easier, less costly way we outlined above but the Lannisters dont get murdered so I guess we have no choice but to help them out.
If you obsess about mistakes made by book/tv/movie characters you are going to drive yourself insane.
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United States30730 Posts
On April 08 2014 08:03 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2014 07:48 Spaylz wrote:On April 08 2014 07:31 Sub40APM wrote:On April 08 2014 07:30 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 08 2014 07:21 KadaverBB wrote:On April 08 2014 07:15 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 08 2014 06:54 Sub40APM wrote:On April 08 2014 06:00 karazax wrote:
stuff Yes, I agree that the Good Guys keep making dumb mistakes. But thats how Martin likes to stack the deck. Which is why the Dornish never got involved in the war despite having every reason to hate Lannisters. No it is not, but i can't really tell more here.. Why make a post like this then? Just PM him if you want to talk about it. We don't need any more "hueheuheu I have read the books" posts like these Fair enough i guess. This wasn't really meant as such, but i see where you are coming from. I just didn't like his generel approach, if you still think there are good and bad guys you probably don't understand the biggest theme in the whole series... Ya totally. The guy who just wanted to help his alcoholic friend after he was told by his sister in law that his other friend was murdered by a clan of incestuous, treasonous, child murdering, money lovers is on the same level as the previously mentioned money lovers. His point wasn't that everyone is on the same level. His point is that most if not all characters are grey. There is no such thing as a clear separation between good and evil in GoT, and that is the real point of the series, as Martin stated himself. He doesn't believe in black and white characters, and he attempts to achieve realism by adding many layers to all characters, to the point that they all have good and evil in them. To quote the Davos/Melisandre exchange in S2: Melisandre: "Are you a good man, Ser Davos?" Davos: "I believe my parts are mixed, my lady. Good and bad". And because Davos is one of the best characters, he is right of course! (Yes, I know of Melisandre's response "If half an onion is black with rot, it's a rotten onion", but she is sort of a religious fanatic so..) In the TV show its pretty obvious that Davos is a pure good guy: loves his king, saves the innocent, ready to die for the good. Which is why Martin repeatedly shafts him, kills his son and steals victory from him in the literally lamest way possible. Litttlefinger: Well you Tyrells already rebelled against the crown, why not marry Joffrey instead?
Tyrells: Why dont we just chill here with our huge army and food while Stannis exhausts himself sacking King's Landing while Robb Stark chases Tywin around the West, then just show up and take it all? Or why dont we marry Sansa Stark to the gay one thus uniting 4 kingdoms against the Lannisters?
Littlefinger: GEORGE MARTIN COMPELS YOU
Tyrells: oh, you are right, this way where we have much less power is better than the easier, less costly way we outlined above but the Lannisters dont get murdered so I guess we have no choice but to help them out.
- Sansa was already in the clutches of the Lannisters.
- Stannis would have had a strategic foothold if he captured King's Landing. They don't like Stannis, he assassinated Renly, so better join up with the lesser evil in the Lannisters (who hold King's Landing and have the best claim to the throne).
- The Lannisters show better leadership with Tywin at the helm (Power has responsibility) and probably have the most influence in Westeros with their staggering wealth.
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On April 08 2014 08:18 Darkhorse wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2014 08:03 Sub40APM wrote:On April 08 2014 07:48 Spaylz wrote:On April 08 2014 07:31 Sub40APM wrote:On April 08 2014 07:30 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 08 2014 07:21 KadaverBB wrote:On April 08 2014 07:15 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 08 2014 06:54 Sub40APM wrote:On April 08 2014 06:00 karazax wrote:
stuff Yes, I agree that the Good Guys keep making dumb mistakes. But thats how Martin likes to stack the deck. Which is why the Dornish never got involved in the war despite having every reason to hate Lannisters. No it is not, but i can't really tell more here.. Why make a post like this then? Just PM him if you want to talk about it. We don't need any more "hueheuheu I have read the books" posts like these Fair enough i guess. This wasn't really meant as such, but i see where you are coming from. I just didn't like his generel approach, if you still think there are good and bad guys you probably don't understand the biggest theme in the whole series... Ya totally. The guy who just wanted to help his alcoholic friend after he was told by his sister in law that his other friend was murdered by a clan of incestuous, treasonous, child murdering, money lovers is on the same level as the previously mentioned money lovers. His point wasn't that everyone is on the same level. His point is that most if not all characters are grey. There is no such thing as a clear separation between good and evil in GoT, and that is the real point of the series, as Martin stated himself. He doesn't believe in black and white characters, and he attempts to achieve realism by adding many layers to all characters, to the point that they all have good and evil in them. To quote the Davos/Melisandre exchange in S2: Melisandre: "Are you a good man, Ser Davos?" Davos: "I believe my parts are mixed, my lady. Good and bad". And because Davos is one of the best characters, he is right of course! (Yes, I know of Melisandre's response "If half an onion is black with rot, it's a rotten onion", but she is sort of a religious fanatic so..) In the TV show its pretty obvious that Davos is a pure good guy: loves his king, saves the innocent, ready to die for the good. Which is why Martin repeatedly shafts him, kills his son and steals victory from him in the literally lamest way possible. Litttlefinger: Well you Tyrells already rebelled against the crown, why not marry Joffrey instead? Tyrells: Why dont we just chill here with our huge army and food while Stannis exhausts himself sacking King's Landing while Robb Stark chases Tywin around the West, then just show up and take it all? Or why dont we marry Sansa Stark to the gay one thus uniting 4 kingdoms against the Lannisters? Littlefinger: GEORGE MARTIN COMPELS YOU Tyrells: oh, you are right, this way where we have much less power is better than the easier, less costly way we outlined above but the Lannisters dont get murdered so I guess we have no choice but to help them out. If you obsess about mistakes made by book/tv/movie characters you are going to drive yourself insane.
I am not obssessing about it, I am just explaining that Game of Thrones stacks the deck against the good guys, then strings the viewers along by giving us great secondary characters like Arya/Davos/Tyrion
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Dear god I hate Danny so much, she is seriously dumb, I hope her actions finally backfire. And who does grey worm loves? The woman traducter?
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On April 08 2014 07:48 Spaylz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2014 07:31 Sub40APM wrote:On April 08 2014 07:30 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 08 2014 07:21 KadaverBB wrote:On April 08 2014 07:15 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 08 2014 06:54 Sub40APM wrote:On April 08 2014 06:00 karazax wrote:
stuff Yes, I agree that the Good Guys keep making dumb mistakes. But thats how Martin likes to stack the deck. Which is why the Dornish never got involved in the war despite having every reason to hate Lannisters. No it is not, but i can't really tell more here.. Why make a post like this then? Just PM him if you want to talk about it. We don't need any more "hueheuheu I have read the books" posts like these Fair enough i guess. This wasn't really meant as such, but i see where you are coming from. I just didn't like his generel approach, if you still think there are good and bad guys you probably don't understand the biggest theme in the whole series... Ya totally. The guy who just wanted to help his alcoholic friend after he was told by his sister in law that his other friend was murdered by a clan of incestuous, treasonous, child murdering, money lovers is on the same level as the previously mentioned money lovers. His point wasn't that everyone is on the same level. His point is that most if not all characters are grey. There is no such thing as a clear separation between good and evil in GoT, and that is the real point of the series, as Martin stated himself.
I disagree with that interpretation, but perhaps it's a matter of semantics. When I hear Martin tell me there are no black and white characters, I don't understand that everyone and everything is grey, I understand that it's the actions that should be judged, not the characters. People can be "good" sometimes and then "bad" some other times, and it's not a contradiction, because "goodness" is not an internal state, it's just defined by the choices you're making and the actions you are doing. If at the end of the war, Polliver gets a farm, creates a family and becomes a loving husband and father, that doesn't mean his character is gray, that just means he's a human being, who is able to choose to do bad things at some times and then good things at other times.
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I really disagree with the sentiment that he 'stacks the deck against the good guys', the thing about the 'game of thrones' is that politics are not a nice mans game. Everyone is acting in their own self interest, power, fame, whatever. To always be morally sound and take the honorable path is actually an awful strategy when it comes to war and politics given the nature of those arenas, so without any deck stacking, the morally pure will likely lose in such engagements.
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United States23455 Posts
On April 08 2014 08:21 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2014 08:18 Darkhorse wrote:On April 08 2014 08:03 Sub40APM wrote:On April 08 2014 07:48 Spaylz wrote:On April 08 2014 07:31 Sub40APM wrote:On April 08 2014 07:30 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 08 2014 07:21 KadaverBB wrote:On April 08 2014 07:15 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 08 2014 06:54 Sub40APM wrote:On April 08 2014 06:00 karazax wrote:
stuff Yes, I agree that the Good Guys keep making dumb mistakes. But thats how Martin likes to stack the deck. Which is why the Dornish never got involved in the war despite having every reason to hate Lannisters. No it is not, but i can't really tell more here.. Why make a post like this then? Just PM him if you want to talk about it. We don't need any more "hueheuheu I have read the books" posts like these Fair enough i guess. This wasn't really meant as such, but i see where you are coming from. I just didn't like his generel approach, if you still think there are good and bad guys you probably don't understand the biggest theme in the whole series... Ya totally. The guy who just wanted to help his alcoholic friend after he was told by his sister in law that his other friend was murdered by a clan of incestuous, treasonous, child murdering, money lovers is on the same level as the previously mentioned money lovers. His point wasn't that everyone is on the same level. His point is that most if not all characters are grey. There is no such thing as a clear separation between good and evil in GoT, and that is the real point of the series, as Martin stated himself. He doesn't believe in black and white characters, and he attempts to achieve realism by adding many layers to all characters, to the point that they all have good and evil in them. To quote the Davos/Melisandre exchange in S2: Melisandre: "Are you a good man, Ser Davos?" Davos: "I believe my parts are mixed, my lady. Good and bad". And because Davos is one of the best characters, he is right of course! (Yes, I know of Melisandre's response "If half an onion is black with rot, it's a rotten onion", but she is sort of a religious fanatic so..) In the TV show its pretty obvious that Davos is a pure good guy: loves his king, saves the innocent, ready to die for the good. Which is why Martin repeatedly shafts him, kills his son and steals victory from him in the literally lamest way possible. Litttlefinger: Well you Tyrells already rebelled against the crown, why not marry Joffrey instead? Tyrells: Why dont we just chill here with our huge army and food while Stannis exhausts himself sacking King's Landing while Robb Stark chases Tywin around the West, then just show up and take it all? Or why dont we marry Sansa Stark to the gay one thus uniting 4 kingdoms against the Lannisters? Littlefinger: GEORGE MARTIN COMPELS YOU Tyrells: oh, you are right, this way where we have much less power is better than the easier, less costly way we outlined above but the Lannisters dont get murdered so I guess we have no choice but to help them out. If you obsess about mistakes made by book/tv/movie characters you are going to drive yourself insane. I am not obssessing about it, I am just explaining that Game of Thrones stacks the deck against the good guys, then strings the viewers along by giving us great secondary characters like Arya/Davos/Tyrion
Aye well it wouldn't be a great show if the good guys never fuck up and all the conflict is resolved in a single season.
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On April 08 2014 08:03 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2014 07:48 Spaylz wrote:On April 08 2014 07:31 Sub40APM wrote:On April 08 2014 07:30 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 08 2014 07:21 KadaverBB wrote:On April 08 2014 07:15 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 08 2014 06:54 Sub40APM wrote:On April 08 2014 06:00 karazax wrote:
stuff Yes, I agree that the Good Guys keep making dumb mistakes. But thats how Martin likes to stack the deck. Which is why the Dornish never got involved in the war despite having every reason to hate Lannisters. No it is not, but i can't really tell more here.. Why make a post like this then? Just PM him if you want to talk about it. We don't need any more "hueheuheu I have read the books" posts like these Fair enough i guess. This wasn't really meant as such, but i see where you are coming from. I just didn't like his generel approach, if you still think there are good and bad guys you probably don't understand the biggest theme in the whole series... Ya totally. The guy who just wanted to help his alcoholic friend after he was told by his sister in law that his other friend was murdered by a clan of incestuous, treasonous, child murdering, money lovers is on the same level as the previously mentioned money lovers. His point wasn't that everyone is on the same level. His point is that most if not all characters are grey. There is no such thing as a clear separation between good and evil in GoT, and that is the real point of the series, as Martin stated himself. He doesn't believe in black and white characters, and he attempts to achieve realism by adding many layers to all characters, to the point that they all have good and evil in them. To quote the Davos/Melisandre exchange in S2: Melisandre: "Are you a good man, Ser Davos?" Davos: "I believe my parts are mixed, my lady. Good and bad". And because Davos is one of the best characters, he is right of course! (Yes, I know of Melisandre's response "If half an onion is black with rot, it's a rotten onion", but she is sort of a religious fanatic so..) In the TV show its pretty obvious that Davos is a pure good guy: loves his king, saves the innocent, ready to die for the good. Which is why Martin repeatedly shafts him, kills his son and steals victory from him in the literally lamest way possible. Litttlefinger: Well you Tyrells already rebelled against the crown, why not marry Joffrey instead? Tyrells: Why dont we just chill here with our huge army and food while Stannis exhausts himself sacking King's Landing while Robb Stark chases Tywin around the West, then just show up and take it all? Or why dont we marry Sansa Stark to the gay one thus uniting 4 kingdoms against the Lannisters? Littlefinger: GEORGE MARTIN COMPELS YOU Tyrells: oh, you are right, this way where we have much less power is better than the easier, less costly way we outlined above but the Lannisters dont get murdered so I guess we have no choice but to help them out.
You are filling in a whole lot of blanks here that the show simply does not explain or elaborate on. There's about a million perfectly reasonable ways to explain all those supposed plot holes. Politics tend to be extremely complex and complicated, and cannot be boiled down to "We hate the Lannisters so we will risk everything to see them suffer".
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Oh man, just watched the ep.
The reforging of Ice is heartbreaking somehow. It's like the last remaining shred of Ned. Beautiful scene.
I love Oberyn Martell. Just as brazing and badass as I wanted him to be. And so out for revenge. Great actor.
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I dont like the new Daario. He seems so ordinary and boring compared to the last one. The last one was very charming and easy on the eyes, exactly as Daenerys likes 'em.
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On April 08 2014 08:23 Acertos wrote:
Dear god I hate Danny so much, she is seriously dumb, I hope her actions finally backfire. And who does grey worm loves? The woman traducter?
dont trip over it too much. its a good way to show that though she may hold power, ambitious and righteous, she is still a naive spoiled teenager and will act as such.
for me sansa has been the most annoying character.
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On April 08 2014 08:03 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2014 07:48 Spaylz wrote:On April 08 2014 07:31 Sub40APM wrote:On April 08 2014 07:30 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 08 2014 07:21 KadaverBB wrote:On April 08 2014 07:15 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 08 2014 06:54 Sub40APM wrote:On April 08 2014 06:00 karazax wrote:
stuff Yes, I agree that the Good Guys keep making dumb mistakes. But thats how Martin likes to stack the deck. Which is why the Dornish never got involved in the war despite having every reason to hate Lannisters. No it is not, but i can't really tell more here.. Why make a post like this then? Just PM him if you want to talk about it. We don't need any more "hueheuheu I have read the books" posts like these Fair enough i guess. This wasn't really meant as such, but i see where you are coming from. I just didn't like his generel approach, if you still think there are good and bad guys you probably don't understand the biggest theme in the whole series... Ya totally. The guy who just wanted to help his alcoholic friend after he was told by his sister in law that his other friend was murdered by a clan of incestuous, treasonous, child murdering, money lovers is on the same level as the previously mentioned money lovers. His point wasn't that everyone is on the same level. His point is that most if not all characters are grey. There is no such thing as a clear separation between good and evil in GoT, and that is the real point of the series, as Martin stated himself. He doesn't believe in black and white characters, and he attempts to achieve realism by adding many layers to all characters, to the point that they all have good and evil in them. On April 08 2014 09:08 Emnjay808 wrote:
I dont like the new Daario. He seems so ordinary and boring compared to the last one. The last one was very charming and easy on the eyes, exactly as Daenerys likes 'em. Yeah, I don't either. The new actor is just... blank. He has no personality or charisma. The first Daario had the looks, and he just had a total womanizing douchebag attitude that fit the character perfectly. To quote the Davos/Melisandre exchange in S2: Melisandre: "Are you a good man, Ser Davos?" Davos: "I believe my parts are mixed, my lady. Good and bad". And because Davos is one of the best characters, he is right of course! (Yes, I know of Melisandre's response "If half an onion is black with rot, it's a rotten onion", but she is sort of a religious fanatic so..) In the TV show its pretty obvious that Davos is a pure good guy: loves his king, saves the innocent, ready to die for the good. Which is why Martin repeatedly shafts him, kills his son and steals victory from him in the literally lamest way possible. Litttlefinger: Well you Tyrells already rebelled against the crown, why not marry Joffrey instead? Tyrells: Why dont we just chill here with our huge army and food while Stannis exhausts himself sacking King's Landing while Robb Stark chases Tywin around the West, then just show up and take it all? Or why dont we marry Sansa Stark to the gay one thus uniting 4 kingdoms against the Lannisters? Littlefinger: GEORGE MARTIN COMPELS YOU Tyrells: oh, you are right, this way where we have much less power is better than the easier, less costly way we outlined above but the Lannisters dont get murdered so I guess we have no choice but to help them out.
I disagree. Davos, even in the show, is not a "pure good guy". He cheated on his wife, he goes through with the birth of the Shadow that kills Renly, etc. Those acts aren't exactly good.
Also, Sansa was in King's Landing, and out of the Tyrells' reach. If the Tyrells did not help the Lannisters, then Stannis would have conquered King's Landing, and their rebellion would come to an end. Or well, maybe not come to an end, but they would have no claim to the throne. Stannis would be king, and Stannis does not negociate.
The Tyrells were simply smart enough to realize that while Stannis wouldn't bend to any of their proposal, and would be out for punishment due to their rallying to Renly instead of him, the Lannisters could be argued with, and pretty much had to. So, the Tyrells didn't exactly claim the throne, but they're slowly working their way toward it with diplomacy and deceit, i.e Margaery gaining a pretty solid grasp on Joffrey.
In the end, it was actually the smarter move. They couldn't possibly know if they could take on Stannis with a full army, whereas joining forces with the Lannisters seemed a better, smarter approach to gain influence.
On April 08 2014 09:08 Emnjay808 wrote:
I dont like the new Daario. He seems so ordinary and boring compared to the last one. The last one was very charming and easy on the eyes, exactly as Daenerys likes 'em.
Yeah, I don't either. The new actor feels too bland. The first Daario had this total womanizing douchebag attitude that fit the character perfectly. I wish they didn't have to recast him.
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Daenerys is the worst. I just skip all her scenes now, hope she dies but her thick plot armor is going to last until she gets to Westeros at least.
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On April 08 2014 09:11 Spaylz wrote:
I disagree. Davos, even in the show, is not a "pure good guy". He cheated on his wife, he goes through with the birth of the Shadow that kills Renly, etc. Those acts aren't exactly good.
You're confusing Davos with Stannis.
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On April 08 2014 08:23 Acertos wrote:
Dear god I hate Danny so much, she is seriously dumb, I hope her actions finally backfire. And who does grey worm loves? The woman traducter?
I love dany, I think its her bitchy personality that makes me like her
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On April 08 2014 10:15 LoLAdriankat wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2014 09:11 Spaylz wrote:
I disagree. Davos, even in the show, is not a "pure good guy". He cheated on his wife, he goes through with the birth of the Shadow that kills Renly, etc. Those acts aren't exactly good. You're confusing Davos with Stannis.
I bet the mighy onion knight would last longer than the 5 seconds stannis did. wink wink
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On April 08 2014 08:21 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2014 08:18 Darkhorse wrote:On April 08 2014 08:03 Sub40APM wrote:On April 08 2014 07:48 Spaylz wrote:On April 08 2014 07:31 Sub40APM wrote:On April 08 2014 07:30 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 08 2014 07:21 KadaverBB wrote:On April 08 2014 07:15 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 08 2014 06:54 Sub40APM wrote:On April 08 2014 06:00 karazax wrote:
stuff Yes, I agree that the Good Guys keep making dumb mistakes. But thats how Martin likes to stack the deck. Which is why the Dornish never got involved in the war despite having every reason to hate Lannisters. No it is not, but i can't really tell more here.. Why make a post like this then? Just PM him if you want to talk about it. We don't need any more "hueheuheu I have read the books" posts like these Fair enough i guess. This wasn't really meant as such, but i see where you are coming from. I just didn't like his generel approach, if you still think there are good and bad guys you probably don't understand the biggest theme in the whole series... Ya totally. The guy who just wanted to help his alcoholic friend after he was told by his sister in law that his other friend was murdered by a clan of incestuous, treasonous, child murdering, money lovers is on the same level as the previously mentioned money lovers. His point wasn't that everyone is on the same level. His point is that most if not all characters are grey. There is no such thing as a clear separation between good and evil in GoT, and that is the real point of the series, as Martin stated himself. He doesn't believe in black and white characters, and he attempts to achieve realism by adding many layers to all characters, to the point that they all have good and evil in them. To quote the Davos/Melisandre exchange in S2: Melisandre: "Are you a good man, Ser Davos?" Davos: "I believe my parts are mixed, my lady. Good and bad". And because Davos is one of the best characters, he is right of course! (Yes, I know of Melisandre's response "If half an onion is black with rot, it's a rotten onion", but she is sort of a religious fanatic so..) In the TV show its pretty obvious that Davos is a pure good guy: loves his king, saves the innocent, ready to die for the good. Which is why Martin repeatedly shafts him, kills his son and steals victory from him in the literally lamest way possible. Litttlefinger: Well you Tyrells already rebelled against the crown, why not marry Joffrey instead? Tyrells: Why dont we just chill here with our huge army and food while Stannis exhausts himself sacking King's Landing while Robb Stark chases Tywin around the West, then just show up and take it all? Or why dont we marry Sansa Stark to the gay one thus uniting 4 kingdoms against the Lannisters? Littlefinger: GEORGE MARTIN COMPELS YOU Tyrells: oh, you are right, this way where we have much less power is better than the easier, less costly way we outlined above but the Lannisters dont get murdered so I guess we have no choice but to help them out. If you obsess about mistakes made by book/tv/movie characters you are going to drive yourself insane. I am not obssessing about it, I am just explaining that Game of Thrones stacks the deck against the good guys, then strings the viewers along by giving us great secondary characters like Arya/Davos/Tyrion
Secondary characters? Tyrion is the most depicted character in the series.
Incidentally, when we say "no black and white" characters, we have to remember that the significance of that is no perfect characters. And honestly, no literature worth the name contains perfect characters, unless the plot demands a literal divinity. There are plenty of deeply, diabolically evil characters in GoT. And most of them, like most folks in life, and any serious literature, are morally complicated.
It's easy to forget this in the midst of hollywod pulp and knock-off fantasy, but serious literature has always treated humans as being depraved, in the Calvinist sense. LotR gets a lot of flack for being morally dichotomous, except that every "good" character has a broad set of flaws (more elaborated in the books than movies, I'll grant you).
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On April 08 2014 10:15 LoLAdriankat wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2014 09:11 Spaylz wrote:
I disagree. Davos, even in the show, is not a "pure good guy". He cheated on his wife, he goes through with the birth of the Shadow that kills Renly, etc. Those acts aren't exactly good. You're confusing Davos with Stannis.
No. Davos did cheat on his wife. At least, it is heavily implied when Melisandre tells him "yet you have known other women" in the S2 dialogue I quoted.
And he smugged Melisandre so she could give birth to the Shadow. Without Davos, it wouldn't have been possible. He didn't know what was going to happen, but he suspected it was bad (or even evil), and he didn't stop it.
Don't get me wrong, I love Davos. Great character. But he is definitely not "pure good".
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