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All book discussion in this thread is now allowed. |
On April 08 2014 08:21 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2014 08:18 Darkhorse wrote:On April 08 2014 08:03 Sub40APM wrote:On April 08 2014 07:48 Spaylz wrote:On April 08 2014 07:31 Sub40APM wrote:On April 08 2014 07:30 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 08 2014 07:21 KadaverBB wrote:On April 08 2014 07:15 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 08 2014 06:54 Sub40APM wrote:On April 08 2014 06:00 karazax wrote:
stuff Yes, I agree that the Good Guys keep making dumb mistakes. But thats how Martin likes to stack the deck. Which is why the Dornish never got involved in the war despite having every reason to hate Lannisters. No it is not, but i can't really tell more here.. Why make a post like this then? Just PM him if you want to talk about it. We don't need any more "hueheuheu I have read the books" posts like these  Fair enough i guess. This wasn't really meant as such, but i see where you are coming from. I just didn't like his generel approach, if you still think there are good and bad guys you probably don't understand the biggest theme in the whole series... Ya totally. The guy who just wanted to help his alcoholic friend after he was told by his sister in law that his other friend was murdered by a clan of incestuous, treasonous, child murdering, money lovers is on the same level as the previously mentioned money lovers. His point wasn't that everyone is on the same level. His point is that most if not all characters are grey. There is no such thing as a clear separation between good and evil in GoT, and that is the real point of the series, as Martin stated himself. He doesn't believe in black and white characters, and he attempts to achieve realism by adding many layers to all characters, to the point that they all have good and evil in them. To quote the Davos/Melisandre exchange in S2: Melisandre: "Are you a good man, Ser Davos?" Davos: "I believe my parts are mixed, my lady. Good and bad". And because Davos is one of the best characters, he is right of course! (Yes, I know of Melisandre's response "If half an onion is black with rot, it's a rotten onion", but she is sort of a religious fanatic so..) In the TV show its pretty obvious that Davos is a pure good guy: loves his king, saves the innocent, ready to die for the good. Which is why Martin repeatedly shafts him, kills his son and steals victory from him in the literally lamest way possible. Litttlefinger: Well you Tyrells already rebelled against the crown, why not marry Joffrey instead? Tyrells: Why dont we just chill here with our huge army and food while Stannis exhausts himself sacking King's Landing while Robb Stark chases Tywin around the West, then just show up and take it all? Or why dont we marry Sansa Stark to the gay one thus uniting 4 kingdoms against the Lannisters? Littlefinger: GEORGE MARTIN COMPELS YOU Tyrells: oh, you are right, this way where we have much less power is better than the easier, less costly way we outlined above but the Lannisters dont get murdered so I guess we have no choice but to help them out. If you obsess about mistakes made by book/tv/movie characters you are going to drive yourself insane. I am not obssessing about it, I am just explaining that Game of Thrones stacks the deck against the good guys, then strings the viewers along by giving us great secondary characters like Arya/Davos/Tyrion
I don't think so. They're given a fair shot but they don't auto-win because they're the 'good guys'. GoT isn't a story about the good and noble Starks defeating the wicked Lannisters. And even if it was, it would be pretty pathetic if the Lannisters were defeated at every turn like team Rocket.
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People tend to overlook the good and focus on the bad or horrible.
Robb Stark won every battle. For most of season two, it was looking really good for him. The Starks definitely don't get shit on all the way, but they've taken some very harsh hits. I mean, even by Westerosi standards, the Red Wedding was an abomination. If it had happened to the Tyrells or the Lannisters, it would have been equally appalling.
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I almost feel bad for the Lannisters, they're losing political influence to a bunch of people whose family symbol is a rose.
So a big theme played out in both the Wildling's house (I forget his name, the fat Santa Claus who fucks his daughters recursively), and in Frey's house, is that if you're a guest you can't harm your host, and the host can't harm you, or else the gods will do something to you. So I don't know what kind of repercussions we're looking at here, or if this will even have repercussions, but I feel something similar will play out with the Martells in the Red Keep.
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On April 08 2014 07:12 Spaylz wrote:
I love The Hound. He is just such a fucking badass.
Just how many more chickens must one devour this season, I wonder. He provided the best quote across the entire series, nothing will top his cunt-mouth-chicken outburst. Nothing!
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On April 08 2014 11:23 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2014 08:21 Sub40APM wrote:On April 08 2014 08:18 Darkhorse wrote:On April 08 2014 08:03 Sub40APM wrote:On April 08 2014 07:48 Spaylz wrote:On April 08 2014 07:31 Sub40APM wrote:On April 08 2014 07:30 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 08 2014 07:21 KadaverBB wrote:On April 08 2014 07:15 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 08 2014 06:54 Sub40APM wrote:
[quote]
Yes, I agree that the Good Guys keep making dumb mistakes. But thats how Martin likes to stack the deck. Which is why the Dornish never got involved in the war despite having every reason to hate Lannisters. No it is not, but i can't really tell more here.. Why make a post like this then? Just PM him if you want to talk about it. We don't need any more "hueheuheu I have read the books" posts like these Fair enough i guess. This wasn't really meant as such, but i see where you are coming from. I just didn't like his generel approach, if you still think there are good and bad guys you probably don't understand the biggest theme in the whole series... Ya totally. The guy who just wanted to help his alcoholic friend after he was told by his sister in law that his other friend was murdered by a clan of incestuous, treasonous, child murdering, money lovers is on the same level as the previously mentioned money lovers. His point wasn't that everyone is on the same level. His point is that most if not all characters are grey. There is no such thing as a clear separation between good and evil in GoT, and that is the real point of the series, as Martin stated himself. He doesn't believe in black and white characters, and he attempts to achieve realism by adding many layers to all characters, to the point that they all have good and evil in them. To quote the Davos/Melisandre exchange in S2: Melisandre: "Are you a good man, Ser Davos?" Davos: "I believe my parts are mixed, my lady. Good and bad". And because Davos is one of the best characters, he is right of course! (Yes, I know of Melisandre's response "If half an onion is black with rot, it's a rotten onion", but she is sort of a religious fanatic so..) In the TV show its pretty obvious that Davos is a pure good guy: loves his king, saves the innocent, ready to die for the good. Which is why Martin repeatedly shafts him, kills his son and steals victory from him in the literally lamest way possible. Litttlefinger: Well you Tyrells already rebelled against the crown, why not marry Joffrey instead? Tyrells: Why dont we just chill here with our huge army and food while Stannis exhausts himself sacking King's Landing while Robb Stark chases Tywin around the West, then just show up and take it all? Or why dont we marry Sansa Stark to the gay one thus uniting 4 kingdoms against the Lannisters? Littlefinger: GEORGE MARTIN COMPELS YOU Tyrells: oh, you are right, this way where we have much less power is better than the easier, less costly way we outlined above but the Lannisters dont get murdered so I guess we have no choice but to help them out. If you obsess about mistakes made by book/tv/movie characters you are going to drive yourself insane. I am not obssessing about it, I am just explaining that Game of Thrones stacks the deck against the good guys, then strings the viewers along by giving us great secondary characters like Arya/Davos/Tyrion I don't think so. They're given a fair shot but they don't auto-win because they're the 'good guys'. GoT isn't a story about the good and noble Starks defeating the wicked Lannisters. And even if it was, it would be pretty pathetic if the Lannisters were defeated at every turn like team Rocket. Since the reverse of that happened to the Starks the only difference is what, this is 'more realistic'? More realistic would be the three unwarring houses just sitting this out and then coming in and taking everyone out, not the Starks needing to be perfect at every turn just to stay even before being felled by a series of comical betrayals.
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On April 08 2014 12:51 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2014 11:23 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On April 08 2014 08:21 Sub40APM wrote:On April 08 2014 08:18 Darkhorse wrote:On April 08 2014 08:03 Sub40APM wrote:On April 08 2014 07:48 Spaylz wrote:On April 08 2014 07:31 Sub40APM wrote:On April 08 2014 07:30 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 08 2014 07:21 KadaverBB wrote:On April 08 2014 07:15 The_Red_Viper wrote:
[quote]
No it is not, but i can't really tell more here.. Why make a post like this then? Just PM him if you want to talk about it. We don't need any more "hueheuheu I have read the books" posts like these Fair enough i guess. This wasn't really meant as such, but i see where you are coming from. I just didn't like his generel approach, if you still think there are good and bad guys you probably don't understand the biggest theme in the whole series... Ya totally. The guy who just wanted to help his alcoholic friend after he was told by his sister in law that his other friend was murdered by a clan of incestuous, treasonous, child murdering, money lovers is on the same level as the previously mentioned money lovers. His point wasn't that everyone is on the same level. His point is that most if not all characters are grey. There is no such thing as a clear separation between good and evil in GoT, and that is the real point of the series, as Martin stated himself. He doesn't believe in black and white characters, and he attempts to achieve realism by adding many layers to all characters, to the point that they all have good and evil in them. To quote the Davos/Melisandre exchange in S2: Melisandre: "Are you a good man, Ser Davos?" Davos: "I believe my parts are mixed, my lady. Good and bad". And because Davos is one of the best characters, he is right of course! (Yes, I know of Melisandre's response "If half an onion is black with rot, it's a rotten onion", but she is sort of a religious fanatic so..) In the TV show its pretty obvious that Davos is a pure good guy: loves his king, saves the innocent, ready to die for the good. Which is why Martin repeatedly shafts him, kills his son and steals victory from him in the literally lamest way possible. Litttlefinger: Well you Tyrells already rebelled against the crown, why not marry Joffrey instead? Tyrells: Why dont we just chill here with our huge army and food while Stannis exhausts himself sacking King's Landing while Robb Stark chases Tywin around the West, then just show up and take it all? Or why dont we marry Sansa Stark to the gay one thus uniting 4 kingdoms against the Lannisters? Littlefinger: GEORGE MARTIN COMPELS YOU Tyrells: oh, you are right, this way where we have much less power is better than the easier, less costly way we outlined above but the Lannisters dont get murdered so I guess we have no choice but to help them out. If you obsess about mistakes made by book/tv/movie characters you are going to drive yourself insane. I am not obssessing about it, I am just explaining that Game of Thrones stacks the deck against the good guys, then strings the viewers along by giving us great secondary characters like Arya/Davos/Tyrion I don't think so. They're given a fair shot but they don't auto-win because they're the 'good guys'. GoT isn't a story about the good and noble Starks defeating the wicked Lannisters. And even if it was, it would be pretty pathetic if the Lannisters were defeated at every turn like team Rocket. Since the reverse of that happened to the Starks the only difference is what, this is 'more realistic'? More realistic would be the three unwarring houses just sitting this out and then coming in and taking everyone out, not the Starks needing to be perfect at every turn just to stay even before being felled by a series of comical betrayals.
And what do you think Lysa Arryn is doing in the Vale? Her troops are fresh and unscathed. We don't know her intentions, she's batshit crazy.
Most of the horrors that have happened to the Starks can be blamed on two things:
1) Bad decision making (Ned going to King's Landing, Catelyn freeing Jaime, Robb breaking his betrothal to Lord Frey's daughter)
2) Opportunistic and rather unbelievably cruel people (Littlefinger, Lord Frey & Lord Bolton mostly)
No fantasy story is completely realistic, but as far as GoT goes, it's pretty damn good. Of course, the Starks are the good guys, but they don't suffer because of that. They suffer because of the consequences of their actions, and because of their faulty views of the world they live in.
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On April 08 2014 12:51 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2014 11:23 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On April 08 2014 08:21 Sub40APM wrote:On April 08 2014 08:18 Darkhorse wrote:On April 08 2014 08:03 Sub40APM wrote:On April 08 2014 07:48 Spaylz wrote:On April 08 2014 07:31 Sub40APM wrote:On April 08 2014 07:30 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 08 2014 07:21 KadaverBB wrote:On April 08 2014 07:15 The_Red_Viper wrote:
[quote]
No it is not, but i can't really tell more here.. Why make a post like this then? Just PM him if you want to talk about it. We don't need any more "hueheuheu I have read the books" posts like these Fair enough i guess. This wasn't really meant as such, but i see where you are coming from. I just didn't like his generel approach, if you still think there are good and bad guys you probably don't understand the biggest theme in the whole series... Ya totally. The guy who just wanted to help his alcoholic friend after he was told by his sister in law that his other friend was murdered by a clan of incestuous, treasonous, child murdering, money lovers is on the same level as the previously mentioned money lovers. His point wasn't that everyone is on the same level. His point is that most if not all characters are grey. There is no such thing as a clear separation between good and evil in GoT, and that is the real point of the series, as Martin stated himself. He doesn't believe in black and white characters, and he attempts to achieve realism by adding many layers to all characters, to the point that they all have good and evil in them. To quote the Davos/Melisandre exchange in S2: Melisandre: "Are you a good man, Ser Davos?" Davos: "I believe my parts are mixed, my lady. Good and bad". And because Davos is one of the best characters, he is right of course! (Yes, I know of Melisandre's response "If half an onion is black with rot, it's a rotten onion", but she is sort of a religious fanatic so..) In the TV show its pretty obvious that Davos is a pure good guy: loves his king, saves the innocent, ready to die for the good. Which is why Martin repeatedly shafts him, kills his son and steals victory from him in the literally lamest way possible. Litttlefinger: Well you Tyrells already rebelled against the crown, why not marry Joffrey instead? Tyrells: Why dont we just chill here with our huge army and food while Stannis exhausts himself sacking King's Landing while Robb Stark chases Tywin around the West, then just show up and take it all? Or why dont we marry Sansa Stark to the gay one thus uniting 4 kingdoms against the Lannisters? Littlefinger: GEORGE MARTIN COMPELS YOU Tyrells: oh, you are right, this way where we have much less power is better than the easier, less costly way we outlined above but the Lannisters dont get murdered so I guess we have no choice but to help them out. If you obsess about mistakes made by book/tv/movie characters you are going to drive yourself insane. I am not obssessing about it, I am just explaining that Game of Thrones stacks the deck against the good guys, then strings the viewers along by giving us great secondary characters like Arya/Davos/Tyrion I don't think so. They're given a fair shot but they don't auto-win because they're the 'good guys'. GoT isn't a story about the good and noble Starks defeating the wicked Lannisters. And even if it was, it would be pretty pathetic if the Lannisters were defeated at every turn like team Rocket. Since the reverse of that happened to the Starks the only difference is what, this is 'more realistic'? More realistic would be the three unwarring houses just sitting this out and then coming in and taking everyone out, not the Starks needing to be perfect at every turn just to stay even before being felled by a series of comical betrayals.
How do they come in after the war and win? The Lannisters will have consolidated their power and the pretense of legitimacy would be gone. Or maybe that's just what they're doing and haven't sprung any traps just yet  The series still has a long time to run and as Jaime pointed out last episode - they haven't won the war yet!
And the Starks didn't need to be perfect - they needed to not fuck up horribly. They alienated potential allies by declaring independence. No way Stannis would ally with them after that. They let Tyrion escape.They let Jaime escape. They lost the Freys as allies by their own fault. They gave their Greyjoy hostage (Theon) back leaving them open to the Kraken. They screwed up a lot, and that shouldn't be too surprising either as Rob was young, inexperienced and after Ned died he no longer had a clear strategic goal to work towards.
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Speaking of how realistic GoT is, here's a cool blog I stumbled upon: http://history-behind-game-of-thrones.com/
Practically every event in GoT has some striking historical parallels. Sure they may not have happened all at the same time and with the same people but stuff like this did happen.
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On April 08 2014 14:04 scudst0rm wrote:Speaking of how realistic GoT is, here's a cool blog I stumbled upon: http://history-behind-game-of-thrones.com/Practically every event in GoT has some striking historical parallels. Sure they may not have happened all at the same time and with the same people but stuff like this did happen.
I've been watching a documentary series on the English monarchy. It has been uncanny how much it reminds me of Game of Thrones.
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Really great episode! Quotes to remember:
"What the fuck's a lommy?"
and more importantly, the HBO metajoke:
"A man must have a code." That had me in fits, it was great!
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On April 08 2014 12:19 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:
I almost feel bad for the Lannisters, they're losing political influence to a bunch of people whose family symbol is a rose.
So a big theme played out in both the Wildling's house (I forget his name, the fat Santa Claus who fucks his daughters recursively), and in Frey's house, is that if you're a guest you can't harm your host, and the host can't harm you, or else the gods will do something to you. So I don't know what kind of repercussions we're looking at here, or if this will even have repercussions, but I feel something similar will play out with the Martells in the Red Keep.
Craster
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On April 08 2014 12:19 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:
I almost feel bad for the Lannisters, they're losing political influence to a bunch of people whose family symbol is a rose.
The Tudor's send their regards.
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On April 08 2014 13:15 Spaylz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2014 12:51 Sub40APM wrote:On April 08 2014 11:23 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On April 08 2014 08:21 Sub40APM wrote:On April 08 2014 08:18 Darkhorse wrote:On April 08 2014 08:03 Sub40APM wrote:On April 08 2014 07:48 Spaylz wrote:On April 08 2014 07:31 Sub40APM wrote:On April 08 2014 07:30 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 08 2014 07:21 KadaverBB wrote:[quote] Why make a post like this then? Just PM him if you want to talk about it. We don't need any more "hueheuheu I have read the books" posts like these Fair enough i guess. This wasn't really meant as such, but i see where you are coming from. I just didn't like his generel approach, if you still think there are good and bad guys you probably don't understand the biggest theme in the whole series... Ya totally. The guy who just wanted to help his alcoholic friend after he was told by his sister in law that his other friend was murdered by a clan of incestuous, treasonous, child murdering, money lovers is on the same level as the previously mentioned money lovers. His point wasn't that everyone is on the same level. His point is that most if not all characters are grey. There is no such thing as a clear separation between good and evil in GoT, and that is the real point of the series, as Martin stated himself. He doesn't believe in black and white characters, and he attempts to achieve realism by adding many layers to all characters, to the point that they all have good and evil in them. To quote the Davos/Melisandre exchange in S2: Melisandre: "Are you a good man, Ser Davos?" Davos: "I believe my parts are mixed, my lady. Good and bad". And because Davos is one of the best characters, he is right of course! (Yes, I know of Melisandre's response "If half an onion is black with rot, it's a rotten onion", but she is sort of a religious fanatic so..) In the TV show its pretty obvious that Davos is a pure good guy: loves his king, saves the innocent, ready to die for the good. Which is why Martin repeatedly shafts him, kills his son and steals victory from him in the literally lamest way possible. Litttlefinger: Well you Tyrells already rebelled against the crown, why not marry Joffrey instead? Tyrells: Why dont we just chill here with our huge army and food while Stannis exhausts himself sacking King's Landing while Robb Stark chases Tywin around the West, then just show up and take it all? Or why dont we marry Sansa Stark to the gay one thus uniting 4 kingdoms against the Lannisters? Littlefinger: GEORGE MARTIN COMPELS YOU Tyrells: oh, you are right, this way where we have much less power is better than the easier, less costly way we outlined above but the Lannisters dont get murdered so I guess we have no choice but to help them out. If you obsess about mistakes made by book/tv/movie characters you are going to drive yourself insane. I am not obssessing about it, I am just explaining that Game of Thrones stacks the deck against the good guys, then strings the viewers along by giving us great secondary characters like Arya/Davos/Tyrion I don't think so. They're given a fair shot but they don't auto-win because they're the 'good guys'. GoT isn't a story about the good and noble Starks defeating the wicked Lannisters. And even if it was, it would be pretty pathetic if the Lannisters were defeated at every turn like team Rocket. Since the reverse of that happened to the Starks the only difference is what, this is 'more realistic'? More realistic would be the three unwarring houses just sitting this out and then coming in and taking everyone out, not the Starks needing to be perfect at every turn just to stay even before being felled by a series of comical betrayals. And what do you think Lysa Arryn is doing in the Vale? Her troops are fresh and unscathed. We don't know her intentions, she's batshit crazy. Most of the horrors that have happened to the Starks can be blamed on two things: 1) Bad decision making (Ned going to King's Landing, Catelyn freeing Jaime, Robb breaking his betrothal to Lord Frey's daughter) 2) Opportunistic and rather unbelievably cruel people (Littlefinger, Lord Frey & Lord Bolton mostly) No fantasy story is completely realistic, but as far as GoT goes, it's pretty damn good. Of course, the Starks are the good guys, but they don't suffer because of that. They suffer because of the consequences of their actions, and because of their faulty views of the world they live in.
Less bad decisions and more "suddenly: magic demon shadow baby". Seriously the Starks would have gotten everything they wanted if not for that little detail. At least if Tywin was in someway responsible for that plot he could get some credit. But no, he wasn't even aware, his entire little empire was saved from certain doom unbeknownst to him by a completely magical fluke in an otherwise fairly unmagical universe.
At least Danny had to deal with being a sex slave and walk into fires and otherwise work for her magical freebies, Tywin gets them for free without even knowing about it =p.
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On April 08 2014 16:38 KlaCkoN wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2014 13:15 Spaylz wrote:On April 08 2014 12:51 Sub40APM wrote:On April 08 2014 11:23 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On April 08 2014 08:21 Sub40APM wrote:On April 08 2014 08:18 Darkhorse wrote:On April 08 2014 08:03 Sub40APM wrote:On April 08 2014 07:48 Spaylz wrote:On April 08 2014 07:31 Sub40APM wrote:On April 08 2014 07:30 The_Red_Viper wrote:
[quote]
Fair enough i guess. This wasn't really meant as such, but i see where you are coming from.
I just didn't like his generel approach, if you still think there are good and bad guys you probably don't understand the biggest theme in the whole series... Ya totally. The guy who just wanted to help his alcoholic friend after he was told by his sister in law that his other friend was murdered by a clan of incestuous, treasonous, child murdering, money lovers is on the same level as the previously mentioned money lovers. His point wasn't that everyone is on the same level. His point is that most if not all characters are grey. There is no such thing as a clear separation between good and evil in GoT, and that is the real point of the series, as Martin stated himself. He doesn't believe in black and white characters, and he attempts to achieve realism by adding many layers to all characters, to the point that they all have good and evil in them. To quote the Davos/Melisandre exchange in S2: Melisandre: "Are you a good man, Ser Davos?" Davos: "I believe my parts are mixed, my lady. Good and bad". And because Davos is one of the best characters, he is right of course! (Yes, I know of Melisandre's response "If half an onion is black with rot, it's a rotten onion", but she is sort of a religious fanatic so..) In the TV show its pretty obvious that Davos is a pure good guy: loves his king, saves the innocent, ready to die for the good. Which is why Martin repeatedly shafts him, kills his son and steals victory from him in the literally lamest way possible. Litttlefinger: Well you Tyrells already rebelled against the crown, why not marry Joffrey instead? Tyrells: Why dont we just chill here with our huge army and food while Stannis exhausts himself sacking King's Landing while Robb Stark chases Tywin around the West, then just show up and take it all? Or why dont we marry Sansa Stark to the gay one thus uniting 4 kingdoms against the Lannisters? Littlefinger: GEORGE MARTIN COMPELS YOU Tyrells: oh, you are right, this way where we have much less power is better than the easier, less costly way we outlined above but the Lannisters dont get murdered so I guess we have no choice but to help them out. If you obsess about mistakes made by book/tv/movie characters you are going to drive yourself insane. I am not obssessing about it, I am just explaining that Game of Thrones stacks the deck against the good guys, then strings the viewers along by giving us great secondary characters like Arya/Davos/Tyrion I don't think so. They're given a fair shot but they don't auto-win because they're the 'good guys'. GoT isn't a story about the good and noble Starks defeating the wicked Lannisters. And even if it was, it would be pretty pathetic if the Lannisters were defeated at every turn like team Rocket. Since the reverse of that happened to the Starks the only difference is what, this is 'more realistic'? More realistic would be the three unwarring houses just sitting this out and then coming in and taking everyone out, not the Starks needing to be perfect at every turn just to stay even before being felled by a series of comical betrayals. And what do you think Lysa Arryn is doing in the Vale? Her troops are fresh and unscathed. We don't know her intentions, she's batshit crazy. Most of the horrors that have happened to the Starks can be blamed on two things: 1) Bad decision making (Ned going to King's Landing, Catelyn freeing Jaime, Robb breaking his betrothal to Lord Frey's daughter) 2) Opportunistic and rather unbelievably cruel people (Littlefinger, Lord Frey & Lord Bolton mostly) No fantasy story is completely realistic, but as far as GoT goes, it's pretty damn good. Of course, the Starks are the good guys, but they don't suffer because of that. They suffer because of the consequences of their actions, and because of their faulty views of the world they live in. Less bad decisions and more "suddenly: magic demon shadow baby". Seriously the Starks would have gotten everything they wanted if not for that little detail. At least if Tywin was in someway responsible for that plot he could get some credit. But no, he wasn't even aware, his entire little empire was saved from certain doom unbeknownst to him by a completely magical fluke in an otherwise fairly unmagical universe. At least Danny had to deal with being a sex slave and walk into fires and otherwise work for her magical freebies, Tywin gets them for free without even knowing about it =p.
Tywin broke Stannis and arranged the red wedding.
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On April 08 2014 16:47 sc2holar wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2014 16:38 KlaCkoN wrote:On April 08 2014 13:15 Spaylz wrote:On April 08 2014 12:51 Sub40APM wrote:On April 08 2014 11:23 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On April 08 2014 08:21 Sub40APM wrote:On April 08 2014 08:18 Darkhorse wrote:On April 08 2014 08:03 Sub40APM wrote:On April 08 2014 07:48 Spaylz wrote:On April 08 2014 07:31 Sub40APM wrote:
[quote]
Ya totally. The guy who just wanted to help his alcoholic friend after he was told by his sister in law that his other friend was murdered by a clan of incestuous, treasonous, child murdering, money lovers is on the same level as the previously mentioned money lovers. His point wasn't that everyone is on the same level. His point is that most if not all characters are grey. There is no such thing as a clear separation between good and evil in GoT, and that is the real point of the series, as Martin stated himself. He doesn't believe in black and white characters, and he attempts to achieve realism by adding many layers to all characters, to the point that they all have good and evil in them. To quote the Davos/Melisandre exchange in S2: Melisandre: "Are you a good man, Ser Davos?" Davos: "I believe my parts are mixed, my lady. Good and bad". And because Davos is one of the best characters, he is right of course! (Yes, I know of Melisandre's response "If half an onion is black with rot, it's a rotten onion", but she is sort of a religious fanatic so..) In the TV show its pretty obvious that Davos is a pure good guy: loves his king, saves the innocent, ready to die for the good. Which is why Martin repeatedly shafts him, kills his son and steals victory from him in the literally lamest way possible. Litttlefinger: Well you Tyrells already rebelled against the crown, why not marry Joffrey instead? Tyrells: Why dont we just chill here with our huge army and food while Stannis exhausts himself sacking King's Landing while Robb Stark chases Tywin around the West, then just show up and take it all? Or why dont we marry Sansa Stark to the gay one thus uniting 4 kingdoms against the Lannisters? Littlefinger: GEORGE MARTIN COMPELS YOU Tyrells: oh, you are right, this way where we have much less power is better than the easier, less costly way we outlined above but the Lannisters dont get murdered so I guess we have no choice but to help them out. If you obsess about mistakes made by book/tv/movie characters you are going to drive yourself insane. I am not obssessing about it, I am just explaining that Game of Thrones stacks the deck against the good guys, then strings the viewers along by giving us great secondary characters like Arya/Davos/Tyrion I don't think so. They're given a fair shot but they don't auto-win because they're the 'good guys'. GoT isn't a story about the good and noble Starks defeating the wicked Lannisters. And even if it was, it would be pretty pathetic if the Lannisters were defeated at every turn like team Rocket. Since the reverse of that happened to the Starks the only difference is what, this is 'more realistic'? More realistic would be the three unwarring houses just sitting this out and then coming in and taking everyone out, not the Starks needing to be perfect at every turn just to stay even before being felled by a series of comical betrayals. And what do you think Lysa Arryn is doing in the Vale? Her troops are fresh and unscathed. We don't know her intentions, she's batshit crazy. Most of the horrors that have happened to the Starks can be blamed on two things: 1) Bad decision making (Ned going to King's Landing, Catelyn freeing Jaime, Robb breaking his betrothal to Lord Frey's daughter) 2) Opportunistic and rather unbelievably cruel people (Littlefinger, Lord Frey & Lord Bolton mostly) No fantasy story is completely realistic, but as far as GoT goes, it's pretty damn good. Of course, the Starks are the good guys, but they don't suffer because of that. They suffer because of the consequences of their actions, and because of their faulty views of the world they live in. Less bad decisions and more "suddenly: magic demon shadow baby". Seriously the Starks would have gotten everything they wanted if not for that little detail. At least if Tywin was in someway responsible for that plot he could get some credit. But no, he wasn't even aware, his entire little empire was saved from certain doom unbeknownst to him by a completely magical fluke in an otherwise fairly unmagical universe. At least Danny had to deal with being a sex slave and walk into fires and otherwise work for her magical freebies, Tywin gets them for free without even knowing about it =p. Tywin broke Stannis and arranged the red wedding.
Stannis could be broken all he wanted, if not for "but suddenly demons" it would not have mattered. Don't get me wrong, I like the show a lot. I just think Tywin gets way too much credit for being "smart" and "rational" and "suitably ruthless" when the only reason he and his family aren't all dead is because magic he had nothing to do with :p
Renly was the on who actually made all the right decisions, and if the show was allowed to just play out according to the initial setup he would have been king, Rob would have gone home to be king or warden or whatever the fuck of the north the lannisters would all be dead and danny would have been raped to death by a dothraki or 5 after Drogos passing.
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On April 08 2014 14:04 scudst0rm wrote:Speaking of how realistic GoT is, here's a cool blog I stumbled upon: http://history-behind-game-of-thrones.com/Practically every event in GoT has some striking historical parallels. Sure they may not have happened all at the same time and with the same people but stuff like this did happen.
Martin himself said he researched history and took ideas from it when he was writing the story. So people that cannot believe the story, they don't also believe history.
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On April 08 2014 16:57 KlaCkoN wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2014 16:47 sc2holar wrote:On April 08 2014 16:38 KlaCkoN wrote:On April 08 2014 13:15 Spaylz wrote:On April 08 2014 12:51 Sub40APM wrote:On April 08 2014 11:23 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On April 08 2014 08:21 Sub40APM wrote:On April 08 2014 08:18 Darkhorse wrote:On April 08 2014 08:03 Sub40APM wrote:On April 08 2014 07:48 Spaylz wrote:
[quote]
His point wasn't that everyone is on the same level. His point is that most if not all characters are grey. There is no such thing as a clear separation between good and evil in GoT, and that is the real point of the series, as Martin stated himself. He doesn't believe in black and white characters, and he attempts to achieve realism by adding many layers to all characters, to the point that they all have good and evil in them.
To quote the Davos/Melisandre exchange in S2:
Melisandre: "Are you a good man, Ser Davos?"
Davos: "I believe my parts are mixed, my lady. Good and bad".
And because Davos is one of the best characters, he is right of course!
(Yes, I know of Melisandre's response "If half an onion is black with rot, it's a rotten onion", but she is sort of a religious fanatic so..) In the TV show its pretty obvious that Davos is a pure good guy: loves his king, saves the innocent, ready to die for the good. Which is why Martin repeatedly shafts him, kills his son and steals victory from him in the literally lamest way possible. Litttlefinger: Well you Tyrells already rebelled against the crown, why not marry Joffrey instead? Tyrells: Why dont we just chill here with our huge army and food while Stannis exhausts himself sacking King's Landing while Robb Stark chases Tywin around the West, then just show up and take it all? Or why dont we marry Sansa Stark to the gay one thus uniting 4 kingdoms against the Lannisters? Littlefinger: GEORGE MARTIN COMPELS YOU Tyrells: oh, you are right, this way where we have much less power is better than the easier, less costly way we outlined above but the Lannisters dont get murdered so I guess we have no choice but to help them out. If you obsess about mistakes made by book/tv/movie characters you are going to drive yourself insane. I am not obssessing about it, I am just explaining that Game of Thrones stacks the deck against the good guys, then strings the viewers along by giving us great secondary characters like Arya/Davos/Tyrion I don't think so. They're given a fair shot but they don't auto-win because they're the 'good guys'. GoT isn't a story about the good and noble Starks defeating the wicked Lannisters. And even if it was, it would be pretty pathetic if the Lannisters were defeated at every turn like team Rocket. Since the reverse of that happened to the Starks the only difference is what, this is 'more realistic'? More realistic would be the three unwarring houses just sitting this out and then coming in and taking everyone out, not the Starks needing to be perfect at every turn just to stay even before being felled by a series of comical betrayals. And what do you think Lysa Arryn is doing in the Vale? Her troops are fresh and unscathed. We don't know her intentions, she's batshit crazy. Most of the horrors that have happened to the Starks can be blamed on two things: 1) Bad decision making (Ned going to King's Landing, Catelyn freeing Jaime, Robb breaking his betrothal to Lord Frey's daughter) 2) Opportunistic and rather unbelievably cruel people (Littlefinger, Lord Frey & Lord Bolton mostly) No fantasy story is completely realistic, but as far as GoT goes, it's pretty damn good. Of course, the Starks are the good guys, but they don't suffer because of that. They suffer because of the consequences of their actions, and because of their faulty views of the world they live in. Less bad decisions and more "suddenly: magic demon shadow baby". Seriously the Starks would have gotten everything they wanted if not for that little detail. At least if Tywin was in someway responsible for that plot he could get some credit. But no, he wasn't even aware, his entire little empire was saved from certain doom unbeknownst to him by a completely magical fluke in an otherwise fairly unmagical universe. At least Danny had to deal with being a sex slave and walk into fires and otherwise work for her magical freebies, Tywin gets them for free without even knowing about it =p. Tywin broke Stannis and arranged the red wedding. Stannis could be broken all he wanted, if not for "but suddenly demons" it would not have mattered. Don't get me wrong, I like the show a lot. I just think Tywin gets way too much credit for being "smart" and "rational" and "suitably ruthless" when the only reason he and his family aren't all dead is because magic he had nothing to do with :p Renly was the on who actually made all the right decisions, and if the show was allowed to just play out according to the initial setup he would have been king, Rob would have gone home to be king or warden or whatever the fuck of the north the lannisters would all be dead and danny would have been raped to death by a dothraki or 5 after Drogos passing.
Was there any indication that Renly was going to allow Robb to declare independence? As I recall, right before he died Renly told Catelyn that Robb can call himself King of the North all he liked as long as he bent the knee to Renly after he took the throne.
EDIT: Also, daaaaang the Dany hate.
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On April 08 2014 18:45 Lord Tolkien wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2014 16:57 KlaCkoN wrote:On April 08 2014 16:47 sc2holar wrote:On April 08 2014 16:38 KlaCkoN wrote:On April 08 2014 13:15 Spaylz wrote:On April 08 2014 12:51 Sub40APM wrote:On April 08 2014 11:23 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On April 08 2014 08:21 Sub40APM wrote:On April 08 2014 08:18 Darkhorse wrote:On April 08 2014 08:03 Sub40APM wrote:
[quote]
In the TV show its pretty obvious that Davos is a pure good guy: loves his king, saves the innocent, ready to die for the good. Which is why Martin repeatedly shafts him, kills his son and steals victory from him in the literally lamest way possible.
Litttlefinger: Well you Tyrells already rebelled against the crown, why not marry Joffrey instead?
Tyrells: Why dont we just chill here with our huge army and food while Stannis exhausts himself sacking King's Landing while Robb Stark chases Tywin around the West, then just show up and take it all? Or why dont we marry Sansa Stark to the gay one thus uniting 4 kingdoms against the Lannisters?
Littlefinger: GEORGE MARTIN COMPELS YOU
Tyrells: oh, you are right, this way where we have much less power is better than the easier, less costly way we outlined above but the Lannisters dont get murdered so I guess we have no choice but to help them out. If you obsess about mistakes made by book/tv/movie characters you are going to drive yourself insane. I am not obssessing about it, I am just explaining that Game of Thrones stacks the deck against the good guys, then strings the viewers along by giving us great secondary characters like Arya/Davos/Tyrion I don't think so. They're given a fair shot but they don't auto-win because they're the 'good guys'. GoT isn't a story about the good and noble Starks defeating the wicked Lannisters. And even if it was, it would be pretty pathetic if the Lannisters were defeated at every turn like team Rocket. Since the reverse of that happened to the Starks the only difference is what, this is 'more realistic'? More realistic would be the three unwarring houses just sitting this out and then coming in and taking everyone out, not the Starks needing to be perfect at every turn just to stay even before being felled by a series of comical betrayals. And what do you think Lysa Arryn is doing in the Vale? Her troops are fresh and unscathed. We don't know her intentions, she's batshit crazy. Most of the horrors that have happened to the Starks can be blamed on two things: 1) Bad decision making (Ned going to King's Landing, Catelyn freeing Jaime, Robb breaking his betrothal to Lord Frey's daughter) 2) Opportunistic and rather unbelievably cruel people (Littlefinger, Lord Frey & Lord Bolton mostly) No fantasy story is completely realistic, but as far as GoT goes, it's pretty damn good. Of course, the Starks are the good guys, but they don't suffer because of that. They suffer because of the consequences of their actions, and because of their faulty views of the world they live in. Less bad decisions and more "suddenly: magic demon shadow baby". Seriously the Starks would have gotten everything they wanted if not for that little detail. At least if Tywin was in someway responsible for that plot he could get some credit. But no, he wasn't even aware, his entire little empire was saved from certain doom unbeknownst to him by a completely magical fluke in an otherwise fairly unmagical universe. At least Danny had to deal with being a sex slave and walk into fires and otherwise work for her magical freebies, Tywin gets them for free without even knowing about it =p. Tywin broke Stannis and arranged the red wedding. Stannis could be broken all he wanted, if not for "but suddenly demons" it would not have mattered. Don't get me wrong, I like the show a lot. I just think Tywin gets way too much credit for being "smart" and "rational" and "suitably ruthless" when the only reason he and his family aren't all dead is because magic he had nothing to do with :p Renly was the on who actually made all the right decisions, and if the show was allowed to just play out according to the initial setup he would have been king, Rob would have gone home to be king or warden or whatever the fuck of the north the lannisters would all be dead and danny would have been raped to death by a dothraki or 5 after Drogos passing. Was there any indication that Renly was going to allow Robb to declare independence? As I recall, right before he died Renly told Catelyn that Robb can call himself King of the North all he liked as long as he bent the knee to Renly after he took the throne. EDIT: Also, daaaaang the Dany hate.
Besides, if am not mistaken, Renly was a single person in Kings Landing who gave real advices to Ned, and seems like he saw a good ally in Starks, even tho Renly was a gay, but he definetely was a good person, and a person whom u can trust. Both Ned and Robb made the same mistake rejecting Renly's offer and help. Oh...dat Starks honor and justice...
P.S. strange for me that so many ppl are underestimating Tyrell family, they are second richest family in Westeros, and their goals are pretty clear, but their methods very accurate and precise.
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On April 08 2014 19:52 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2014 18:45 Lord Tolkien wrote:On April 08 2014 16:57 KlaCkoN wrote:On April 08 2014 16:47 sc2holar wrote:On April 08 2014 16:38 KlaCkoN wrote:On April 08 2014 13:15 Spaylz wrote:On April 08 2014 12:51 Sub40APM wrote:On April 08 2014 11:23 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On April 08 2014 08:21 Sub40APM wrote:On April 08 2014 08:18 Darkhorse wrote:
[quote]
If you obsess about mistakes made by book/tv/movie characters you are going to drive yourself insane. I am not obssessing about it, I am just explaining that Game of Thrones stacks the deck against the good guys, then strings the viewers along by giving us great secondary characters like Arya/Davos/Tyrion I don't think so. They're given a fair shot but they don't auto-win because they're the 'good guys'. GoT isn't a story about the good and noble Starks defeating the wicked Lannisters. And even if it was, it would be pretty pathetic if the Lannisters were defeated at every turn like team Rocket. Since the reverse of that happened to the Starks the only difference is what, this is 'more realistic'? More realistic would be the three unwarring houses just sitting this out and then coming in and taking everyone out, not the Starks needing to be perfect at every turn just to stay even before being felled by a series of comical betrayals. And what do you think Lysa Arryn is doing in the Vale? Her troops are fresh and unscathed. We don't know her intentions, she's batshit crazy. Most of the horrors that have happened to the Starks can be blamed on two things: 1) Bad decision making (Ned going to King's Landing, Catelyn freeing Jaime, Robb breaking his betrothal to Lord Frey's daughter) 2) Opportunistic and rather unbelievably cruel people (Littlefinger, Lord Frey & Lord Bolton mostly) No fantasy story is completely realistic, but as far as GoT goes, it's pretty damn good. Of course, the Starks are the good guys, but they don't suffer because of that. They suffer because of the consequences of their actions, and because of their faulty views of the world they live in. Less bad decisions and more "suddenly: magic demon shadow baby". Seriously the Starks would have gotten everything they wanted if not for that little detail. At least if Tywin was in someway responsible for that plot he could get some credit. But no, he wasn't even aware, his entire little empire was saved from certain doom unbeknownst to him by a completely magical fluke in an otherwise fairly unmagical universe. At least Danny had to deal with being a sex slave and walk into fires and otherwise work for her magical freebies, Tywin gets them for free without even knowing about it =p. Tywin broke Stannis and arranged the red wedding. Stannis could be broken all he wanted, if not for "but suddenly demons" it would not have mattered. Don't get me wrong, I like the show a lot. I just think Tywin gets way too much credit for being "smart" and "rational" and "suitably ruthless" when the only reason he and his family aren't all dead is because magic he had nothing to do with :p Renly was the on who actually made all the right decisions, and if the show was allowed to just play out according to the initial setup he would have been king, Rob would have gone home to be king or warden or whatever the fuck of the north the lannisters would all be dead and danny would have been raped to death by a dothraki or 5 after Drogos passing. Was there any indication that Renly was going to allow Robb to declare independence? As I recall, right before he died Renly told Catelyn that Robb can call himself King of the North all he liked as long as he bent the knee to Renly after he took the throne. EDIT: Also, daaaaang the Dany hate. Besides, if am not mistaken, Renly was a single person in Kings Landing who gave real advices to Ned, and seems like he saw a good ally in Starks, even tho Renly was a gay, but he definetely was a good person, and a person whom u can trust. Both Ned and Robb made the same mistake rejecting Renly's offer and help. Oh...dat Starks honor and justice...
Lol, I hope this is just your bad English because this reads gays are normally bad people but Renly was good.
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On April 08 2014 19:55 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2014 19:52 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:On April 08 2014 18:45 Lord Tolkien wrote:On April 08 2014 16:57 KlaCkoN wrote:On April 08 2014 16:47 sc2holar wrote:On April 08 2014 16:38 KlaCkoN wrote:On April 08 2014 13:15 Spaylz wrote:On April 08 2014 12:51 Sub40APM wrote:On April 08 2014 11:23 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On April 08 2014 08:21 Sub40APM wrote:
[quote]
I am not obssessing about it, I am just explaining that Game of Thrones stacks the deck against the good guys, then strings the viewers along by giving us great secondary characters like Arya/Davos/Tyrion I don't think so. They're given a fair shot but they don't auto-win because they're the 'good guys'. GoT isn't a story about the good and noble Starks defeating the wicked Lannisters. And even if it was, it would be pretty pathetic if the Lannisters were defeated at every turn like team Rocket. Since the reverse of that happened to the Starks the only difference is what, this is 'more realistic'? More realistic would be the three unwarring houses just sitting this out and then coming in and taking everyone out, not the Starks needing to be perfect at every turn just to stay even before being felled by a series of comical betrayals. And what do you think Lysa Arryn is doing in the Vale? Her troops are fresh and unscathed. We don't know her intentions, she's batshit crazy. Most of the horrors that have happened to the Starks can be blamed on two things: 1) Bad decision making (Ned going to King's Landing, Catelyn freeing Jaime, Robb breaking his betrothal to Lord Frey's daughter) 2) Opportunistic and rather unbelievably cruel people (Littlefinger, Lord Frey & Lord Bolton mostly) No fantasy story is completely realistic, but as far as GoT goes, it's pretty damn good. Of course, the Starks are the good guys, but they don't suffer because of that. They suffer because of the consequences of their actions, and because of their faulty views of the world they live in. Less bad decisions and more "suddenly: magic demon shadow baby". Seriously the Starks would have gotten everything they wanted if not for that little detail. At least if Tywin was in someway responsible for that plot he could get some credit. But no, he wasn't even aware, his entire little empire was saved from certain doom unbeknownst to him by a completely magical fluke in an otherwise fairly unmagical universe. At least Danny had to deal with being a sex slave and walk into fires and otherwise work for her magical freebies, Tywin gets them for free without even knowing about it =p. Tywin broke Stannis and arranged the red wedding. Stannis could be broken all he wanted, if not for "but suddenly demons" it would not have mattered. Don't get me wrong, I like the show a lot. I just think Tywin gets way too much credit for being "smart" and "rational" and "suitably ruthless" when the only reason he and his family aren't all dead is because magic he had nothing to do with :p Renly was the on who actually made all the right decisions, and if the show was allowed to just play out according to the initial setup he would have been king, Rob would have gone home to be king or warden or whatever the fuck of the north the lannisters would all be dead and danny would have been raped to death by a dothraki or 5 after Drogos passing. Was there any indication that Renly was going to allow Robb to declare independence? As I recall, right before he died Renly told Catelyn that Robb can call himself King of the North all he liked as long as he bent the knee to Renly after he took the throne. EDIT: Also, daaaaang the Dany hate. Besides, if am not mistaken, Renly was a single person in Kings Landing who gave real advices to Ned, and seems like he saw a good ally in Starks, even tho Renly was a gay, but he definetely was a good person, and a person whom u can trust. Both Ned and Robb made the same mistake rejecting Renly's offer and help. Oh...dat Starks honor and justice... Lol, I hope this is just your bad English because this reads gays are normally bad people but Renly was good.
It's not about gays are bad or something, it's about he was a single clear person to me with clear goals and without thoughts about stabbing Starks in back and it's about he managed to do every move just the same as i would do on he's place, with exception picking Loras or any other male as my lover :D And those scene with Loras shaving Renly was disgusting a bit for me :D Which is kinda Okay, since this tv show gives u different emotions, and all those emotions srsly touching me sometimes. Yea, probably I should not even notice anything about Renly's orientation.
And by the way, he was a good guy that didn't made a single mistake and still been killed, with just stupid and sudden death. I mean, killed by evil shadow from red woman's vagina?
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EPT
