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On December 29 2019 22:58 Pandemona wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2019 20:06 FreakyDroid wrote:On December 28 2019 21:50 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 28 2019 15:26 KwarK wrote:
Also all through TFA we had the whole "who is Rey, where does she come from?" thing with nerds trying to work out if she was a secret Skywalker or Obi Wan Kenobi's lovechild or whatever because you can't just have a new protagonist who isn't secretly related to someone.
Then in TLJ they go hard on "no, she's a nobody, the force is getting democratized, no more lineages and midichlorians, the force acts through all people who believe in justice and want to support life, we're going to have all these scenes of oppression and injustice in this weird social justice casino planet which ends with random children becoming force sensitive because that is the direction we want to take this franchise"
Then TRoS it's suddenly "yeah so let's not talk about anything that happened in TLJ, like any of it, she's a secret Palpatine somehow but like that never came up before and nobody, not Luke, not Anakin, not any of the Empire people, knew about Palpatine having like a fucking family or whatever. Anyway, all force users are part of these special sacred bloodlines, now let's talk power levels. Nerds fucking love power levels". Also why the focus on parental lineage anyway? This universe is a total mess. The Jedi have to be celibate for, some reason and Anakin was the exception to this particular rule, but let’s focus the new trilogy on the children of people we already know. The Jedi were rigid like that since their inception. It was only after the Jedi Order was destroyed that Luke changed that rule after he remade the Jedi Order after the events of the OT. Luke also married Mara Jade and had a son with her called Ben (named after Obi-Wan). The new trilogy makes an amalgam of Luke's son and Leia's son, so its neither Ben Skywalker nor Jacen Solo, but fuses them together in Ben Solo. For some reason they kept this bullshit rule in the new trilogy, but I think there are 2 reasons for it: one because JJ set it up in TFA, then Rian tried to move away from this when they had Rey being a nobody (which I actually liked), but then JJ made her a Palpatine (which i didnt like) to poo back at Rian for obvious reasons. The tug of war between the 2 directors and the lack of coherent vision for the whole trilogy is what created this mess. The last move by JJ, in my view was a desperation act, as was the return of Darth Sidous. However, through most of the Star Wars literature (both comics and books) lineage isnt that important, only the movies focus heavily on it. Which is understandable, because even in Lucas' mind, Star Wars among other things, at its core has always been about the dysfunctional family of the Skywalkers. Yeah if they just gave the trilogy and a story to JJ at the start of this and said this is the plan we have, can you make the 3 films like this and he would have took his money and did it. He probs would have altered a bit and agreed a few things with Disney and at least the film would follow a path whether good nor bad as a whole it would have at least made a bit more sense. The reason this trilogy is poor i think is as you pointed at here is that Rian's movie was a complete left field movie compared to the one before it and the one that followed it.
I agree. I'd actually give JJ 2 episodes to develop plots and then let another one finish it off (assuming the last one follows along and doesnt dump everything in the trash bin like Rian did), because if you look at his work, historically he's not great at tying it all together, he is just average in that regard.
But if he did all 3 movies would have ended up way better than this disjointed mess we got.
On December 29 2019 23:53 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2019 06:39 Pandemona wrote:
I could write an essay on what the hell happened in this film and this trilogy but i won't because it is pointless. All i will say is they had SO MUCH potential and it feels all wasted and from Disney point of view that makes no sense, they normally love cashing in and they didn't.
That's the part where Youtubers point to when they talk about this trilogy being all about political agenda. If all you wanted to do was print money, you'd play to the already existing HUGE fanbase. The sequel trilogy actively ATTACKS that fanbase. Why? It doesn't make sense for any kind of media property to do that. Kathleen Kennedy clearly has some form of ulterior motive that doesn't involve just making money. That's the part that really pisses fans off, because her ulterior motive is clearly attacking them.
90% of those tubers are toxic shitheads, that produce 2-3 videos a day just to talk trash. Granted they do have a point most of the time, but its clear as day their agenda is nothing but trashtalking big franchises/companies, be it Disney/SW or EA, Blizzard etc. So the way I see it, they arent anything better than the ones they keep talking about, except they do it from the other side of the coin. Same shit if you ask me. Since im not politically affiliated with either the left or the right, at first I found all these to be pretty amusing, just like all the political/civil discourse we've got going on, but now its just one toxic shit talking about another toxic shit. At the end, both sides are toxic and shit. As viewers/consumers, we are the ones that end up with the short end of the stick and that's what sucks the most.
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This movie was the best of the new trilogy, despite the numerous plot holes, it was entertaining. Daisy Ridley is a good actress, but it's Adam Driver aka Ben Solo who stole the light for me. He got the best character development of the sequel.The force bond was also an interesting idea, but Rian Johnson really fucked up things.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51485 Posts
On December 30 2019 06:48 FreakyDroid wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2019 22:58 Pandemona wrote:On December 29 2019 20:06 FreakyDroid wrote:On December 28 2019 21:50 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 28 2019 15:26 KwarK wrote:
Also all through TFA we had the whole "who is Rey, where does she come from?" thing with nerds trying to work out if she was a secret Skywalker or Obi Wan Kenobi's lovechild or whatever because you can't just have a new protagonist who isn't secretly related to someone.
Then in TLJ they go hard on "no, she's a nobody, the force is getting democratized, no more lineages and midichlorians, the force acts through all people who believe in justice and want to support life, we're going to have all these scenes of oppression and injustice in this weird social justice casino planet which ends with random children becoming force sensitive because that is the direction we want to take this franchise"
Then TRoS it's suddenly "yeah so let's not talk about anything that happened in TLJ, like any of it, she's a secret Palpatine somehow but like that never came up before and nobody, not Luke, not Anakin, not any of the Empire people, knew about Palpatine having like a fucking family or whatever. Anyway, all force users are part of these special sacred bloodlines, now let's talk power levels. Nerds fucking love power levels". Also why the focus on parental lineage anyway? This universe is a total mess. The Jedi have to be celibate for, some reason and Anakin was the exception to this particular rule, but let’s focus the new trilogy on the children of people we already know. The Jedi were rigid like that since their inception. It was only after the Jedi Order was destroyed that Luke changed that rule after he remade the Jedi Order after the events of the OT. Luke also married Mara Jade and had a son with her called Ben (named after Obi-Wan). The new trilogy makes an amalgam of Luke's son and Leia's son, so its neither Ben Skywalker nor Jacen Solo, but fuses them together in Ben Solo. For some reason they kept this bullshit rule in the new trilogy, but I think there are 2 reasons for it: one because JJ set it up in TFA, then Rian tried to move away from this when they had Rey being a nobody (which I actually liked), but then JJ made her a Palpatine (which i didnt like) to poo back at Rian for obvious reasons. The tug of war between the 2 directors and the lack of coherent vision for the whole trilogy is what created this mess. The last move by JJ, in my view was a desperation act, as was the return of Darth Sidous. However, through most of the Star Wars literature (both comics and books) lineage isnt that important, only the movies focus heavily on it. Which is understandable, because even in Lucas' mind, Star Wars among other things, at its core has always been about the dysfunctional family of the Skywalkers. Yeah if they just gave the trilogy and a story to JJ at the start of this and said this is the plan we have, can you make the 3 films like this and he would have took his money and did it. He probs would have altered a bit and agreed a few things with Disney and at least the film would follow a path whether good nor bad as a whole it would have at least made a bit more sense. The reason this trilogy is poor i think is as you pointed at here is that Rian's movie was a complete left field movie compared to the one before it and the one that followed it. I agree. I'd actually give JJ 2 episodes to develop plots and then let another one finish it off (assuming the last one follows along and doesnt dump everything in the trash bin like Rian did), because if you look at his work, historically he's not great at tying it all together, he is just average in that regard. But if he did all 3 movies would have ended up way better than this disjointed mess we got. Show nested quote +On December 29 2019 23:53 Vindicare605 wrote:On December 29 2019 06:39 Pandemona wrote:
I could write an essay on what the hell happened in this film and this trilogy but i won't because it is pointless. All i will say is they had SO MUCH potential and it feels all wasted and from Disney point of view that makes no sense, they normally love cashing in and they didn't.
That's the part where Youtubers point to when they talk about this trilogy being all about political agenda. If all you wanted to do was print money, you'd play to the already existing HUGE fanbase. The sequel trilogy actively ATTACKS that fanbase. Why? It doesn't make sense for any kind of media property to do that. Kathleen Kennedy clearly has some form of ulterior motive that doesn't involve just making money. That's the part that really pisses fans off, because her ulterior motive is clearly attacking them. 90% of those tubers are toxic shitheads, that produce 2-3 videos a day just to talk trash. Granted they do have a point most of the time, but its clear as day their agenda is nothing but trashtalking big franchises/companies, be it Disney/SW or EA, Blizzard etc. So the way I see it, they arent anything better than the ones they keep talking about, except they do it from the other side of the coin. Same shit if you ask me. Since im not politically affiliated with either the left or the right, at first I found all these to be pretty amusing, just like all the political/civil discourse we've got going on, but now its just one toxic shit talking about another toxic shit. At the end, both sides are toxic and shit. As viewers/consumers, we are the ones that end up with the short end of the stick and that's what sucks the most.
Yeah i agree with what you say, either JJ gets all 3 or he gets the first 2 and Rian takes the 3rd, to do it the way they did it ruined it 
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Actually you dont need to watch the tubers, it is Disney who ruined the franchise, so no excuses for the multi milllion company here, and neither for JJ and Rian.
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The thing with tubers right now is that they're surprisingly consistent. Left, right, center, SW fans, not SW fans, geeks and nerds, normies etc. everyone is pretty much on the same page: This new trilogy sucked monkey balls. It started safe but promising with TFA but just kept rolling downhill from there and now that the trilogy is complete it has also downgraded the TFA (and surprisingly enough, elevated the prequel trilogy).
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I just saw this movie and I had fun with it.
That being said, its full of just as much plot related stupidity as The Last Jedi was.
An ANCIENT Sith Dagger that somehow matches up to the wreckage of the fuckin' what, 30 year old, Death Star? Stupid.
Jedi Master Leia? Stupid.
Force healing? Holy shit, if that existed at any point in Star Wars' previous history it wouldve ended the series after Episode III or whenever Padme was supposed to die in child birth, since Anakin could've just force-healed her and she'd have been fine!
And is it me or did Lando seem really out of his mind? Like in a pleasant way, like you're outside on a sunny day, and its very comfortable, but you dont actually have a single thought running through your head kind of way.
On a positive note, that image of Palpatines first real appearance in front of Rey in the Sith arena where hes attached to the robot arm was really impactful. I remember almost nothing about The Force Awakens, but I'll remember that image for a while. A lot of solid to great cinematography, I just wish they'd stopped the lightning induced light flashing, theres enough of that with the lasers and lightsabers, and it kind of spoiled the actions scenes on Exegal(gul, gull, gall? eh.)
I'd rank the movies best to worst as The Last Jedi > Rise of the Skywalker > The Force Awakens.
Given its Star Wars and Im not really attached to the franchise basically at all, the movies were fun, I had fun with them, they are not really very good, and I would've really liked to see a Rian Johnson trilogy of Star Wars movies more than a JJ Abrams one, but whatever, Star Wars is dumb fun, and these movies were dumb fun.
I'd give ROTS a solid 6.5/10. It may stink, but that doesnt mean it rots. (buh-dum-tss)
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force healing was an ability in the knights of the old republic video games
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
I'm slightly late to the party, but several pages ago people were discussing force users and the force.
Before Disney lore was that only few were actually so strong to defend properly to a single really good attacker. A good anti-force user weapon was a flamethrower, because only really strong force users were capable of shielding the whole body from the fire. (also it looks cool in the movies  but here you go, that's why) So droids killing jedies in the Geo battle isn't anything new, in the end most of the jedies weren't that good anyway(no offense to them)
Mostly the old lore implied that the Force was a tool to help(for w/e reason, i'm not that much into it) and only the biggest users were capable of doing OP things(BTW Palpatine killing ships isn't anything new in the EU, but there's no longer EU, right? )
I have no idea what is the current lore, that's what used to be BD(before Disney ).
So Rey doing OP things wouldn't be as bad if they didn't imply she's being guided by the force. All. The. Time. I can ride the MILF because of the force. I can beat Kylo because of the force. I can do the mind trick because of the force. That's the bullshit which isn't exactly lore friendly, at least for the old people like me
BTW in the Night Watch/DayWatch thing from Lukyanenko(I'm pretty sure I butchered the English transcription) there was a great moment when Anton realises, that the most powerful mages operate on a totally different level and they see the wizardry differently as well  Actually thinking about it Rey is more of a magic mirror than balance of the force(again, taken from the aformentioned books) but she didn't quit the world in the end(another great mechanism I liked in the books).
Why am I writing this - many SW fans would be fine to accept Rey suddenly being possesed by the force and doing OP stuff. No issues there. But when she does everything that's simply wrong. This would mean that the Force had to kill Chewie for w/e reason... wait, what?
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United States97276 Posts
I finally got around to see it. My expectations were really low so I guess I couldn’t be disappointed. It was decent. I liked it a lot more than 7 and 8
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I had fun watching it, and I was entertained. There were definitely plot holes, but I ain't mad. Big intergalactic fights can basically never be bad. 6.5/10
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On January 03 2020 00:58 deacon.frost wrote:BTW in the Night Watch/DayWatch thing from Lukyanenko(I'm pretty sure I butchered the English transcription) there was a great moment when Anton realises, that the most powerful mages operate on a totally different level and they see the wizardry differently as well Actually thinking about it Rey is more of a magic mirror than balance of the force(again, taken from the aformentioned books) but she didn't quit the world in the end(another great mechanism I liked in the books). Why am I writing this - many SW fans would be fine to accept Rey suddenly being possesed by the force and doing OP stuff. No issues there. But when she does everything that's simply wrong. This would mean that the Force had to kill Chewie for w/e reason... wait, what?
I just wanted to chime in and say READ THOSE BOOKS deacon is mentioning! They are awesome!
Saw the movie last week, was okay'ish if you watch it for what it is: a movie to entertain you for 2-3 hours and not further think about it.
Regarded in the greater scale of the Star Wars universe, this movie sucks balls. Leia, the flashbacks, the dead Jedi masters, Rey and the force, Palpatine killing ships, the whole Ben Solo Vader thingy and his stupid sword, the planet cracker ships, ...
Rating:
As a standalone movie: 6-7/10
As Star Wars episode 9: 3/10
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I just got back from the cinema.
I think it matches up to Rogue 1 as the joint best of the new movies. They made the nostalgia as impactful as they could, which was a good thing to focus on. My mum cried more than twice during the movie.
The lightsabre battles were amazing, Kylo was a better character in this than in the other two movies (somehow??), and I thought it wrapped things up pretty nicely.
People complaining about plotholes in a stupid action movie lol. I treat those people the same as I would treat people who complain about plotholes in WWE.
maybe 7.5-8/10
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Canada11350 Posts
At one point in time, Star Wars was still a semi-coherent secondary world, not simply a 'stupid action movie lol', although not matching Lord of the Rings perhaps, but closer to that side than Transformers or WWE plot lines.
But 'lol' 'stupid action films'
K.
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On January 12 2020 07:32 Falling wrote:
At one point in time, Star Wars was still a semi-coherent secondary world, not simply a 'stupid action movie lol', although not matching Lord of the Rings perhaps, but closer to that side than Transformers or WWE plot lines.
But 'lol' 'stupid action films'
K.
Yeah, that point in time was 1999-2005.
And those films were absolutely terrible.
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Betterthan7,8,9 by a mile
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On January 12 2020 08:04 sharkie wrote:
Betterthan7,8,9 by a mile
Disagree.
I suppose it depends what metric you use to judge, but the prequels were much worse in script, cinematography, acting, directing (especially), action and pacing.
I suppose if you're judging them only on backstory depth you could maybe make the argument that the prequels weren't absolutely shit.
If you can find me a scene that is as fist bitingly cringily bad as this in 7,8,9 I would be absolutely shocked:
+ Show Spoiler +
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Northern Ireland25334 Posts
On January 12 2020 08:10 Jockmcplop wrote:Disagree. I suppose it depends what metric you use to judge, but the prequels were much worse in script, cinematography, acting, directing (especially), action and pacing. I suppose if you're judging them only on backstory depth you could maybe make the argument that the prequels weren't absolutely shit. If you can find me a scene that is as fist bitingly cringily bad as this in 7,8,9 I would be absolutely shocked: + Show Spoiler +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPzUXlgBJrU
You could compile clips from them and Equilibriam, show them to a person who was unfamiliar with either and then ask which film’s central premise is a dystopian future where emotion is outlawed and I genuinely think people would struggle to answer with confidence.
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Canada11350 Posts
I have a hard time thinking which is worse as they are bad in different ways. But the sequels have wrecked any sensible future stories.
What do future story tellers have to deal with? Hyper-space kamikazi ships, obsoleting capital ships, TIE fighters that track in hyperspace in real time, planet destroying lasers on regular old capital ships, Jedi teleportation, invincible Jedi ghosts who can lightning strike the physical world, god-tier force lightning that can on one hand wipe out entire fleets, and on the other hand be blocked by a simple lightsaber. Fleets and Force powers magically appearing when convenient to the plot.
There was a time where I thought it would be fun to be able write a Star Wars tie in novel (never would happen of course.) But this universe? I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole. It's so actively stupid I can't even imagine how to tell a story that isn't just god-Jedi throwing fleets from the sky and half the galaxy wiped out by these capital ship death stars. It's a story, but it ain't Star Wars anymore.
Prequels were poorly executed, but had some interesting ideas. However, you could still play in the universe and come up with fun stories based on the established rules. Now it's story-anarchy. And to add insult to injury all three sequel films are the epitome of Disney direct-to-dvd sequels: simply retell the old story with the next generation. Ugh.
edit.
It's not just on lore that doesn't hold up btw.
Granted, Prequel Palpatine's plot is unnecessarily complicated (Episode II in particular), but while TFA is largely competent, RJ and JJ are complete goobers when plotting the last two. Both rely heavily on coincidence, contrivance, and happenstance to move some pretty basic plot stuff along. They can make it look pretty, but the actual story they are moving along is pretty incompetent.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
On January 12 2020 08:10 Jockmcplop wrote:If you can find me a scene that is as fist bitingly cringily bad as this in 7,8,9 I would be absolutely shocked: + Show Spoiler +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPzUXlgBJrU
Dunno if it's strictly worse, but I'd say this scene is on par.
+ Show Spoiler +
And relatedly, I'd say that Ep 8 is the only one that's really as deeply flawed as "the prequels" as a whole. Ep 7 is solidly better than any of the three, and Ep 9 is at worst about the same as Ep 3 (both are generally flawed, but also cool in various redeeming ways).
I don't really feel like the "ruin the lore" or "unreasonable power balance" concerns really hold up in the grand scheme of things. Mostly because there's been an overabundance of Star Wars media that has already done much more aggressive power creep. The Dark Empire works that Ep 9 might as well have been a cinematic adaptation of had Palpatine destroying entire fleets with Force Lightning just the same. The hyperspace ship thing has been done in somewhat less aggressive form in at least the recent Rebels series (destroying an Interdictor) and Tartakovsky's Clone Wars (Federation ship cutting a Republic Star Destroyer in half from hyperspace). An abundance of "ancient Sith Lords as gods with endless power" examples. And as far as ruining the lore - the EU had killed off lots of great characters in lots of shitty ways, and this isn't really much different.
Generally, the trilogy didn't live up to the level I'd hope. In fact, I'd say that Ep 8 was the worst of the nine, which is just about as likely as anything to explain why that is so. But to be perfectly honest, Star Wars as a franchise has run on long enough that it's generally a toss-up whether or not new media will be good, mediocre, or quite bad. Being able to view it as a "stupid action movie" is not necessarily a bad thing.
I do agree that it's quite hard to immediately develop a "where to go from here" direction purely from where Ep 9 left off. I'd personally probably approach it with a clean slate direction, putting it far enough into the future that it wouldn't have any direct tie-in to what came before (because I'm not really sure that making a "Finn, Poe, Rey as mentors" follow-up is really the right way forward). But Star Wars storytelling has always involved more than a little fuzzy logic to try to maintain continuity in an expanding universe, so I don't see anything particularly egregious here.
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EPT
