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Northern Ireland25381 Posts
On December 28 2019 15:26 KwarK wrote:
Also all through TFA we had the whole "who is Rey, where does she come from?" thing with nerds trying to work out if she was a secret Skywalker or Obi Wan Kenobi's lovechild or whatever because you can't just have a new protagonist who isn't secretly related to someone.
Then in TLJ they go hard on "no, she's a nobody, the force is getting democratized, no more lineages and midichlorians, the force acts through all people who believe in justice and want to support life, we're going to have all these scenes of oppression and injustice in this weird social justice casino planet which ends with random children becoming force sensitive because that is the direction we want to take this franchise"
Then TRoS it's suddenly "yeah so let's not talk about anything that happened in TLJ, like any of it, she's a secret Palpatine somehow but like that never came up before and nobody, not Luke, not Anakin, not any of the Empire people, knew about Palpatine having like a fucking family or whatever. Anyway, all force users are part of these special sacred bloodlines, now let's talk power levels. Nerds fucking love power levels".
Yeah pretty much. Also your plot synopsis had me cracking up.
So Kylo didn’t/did know of her parentage via Snoke in TLJ but chose not to use it in trying to convince her to join him, or he did know but chose not to use that information?
Also why the focus on parental lineage anyway? This universe is a total mess. The Jedi have to be celibate for, some reason and Anakin was the exception to this particular rule, but let’s focus the new trilogy on the children of people we already know.
At least Johnson’s take on latent force abilities sort of ties in with what we saw in the Prequels where it seems the Jedi recruit the gifted from all over the place.
So we have the Prequels, the Last Jedi’s take and the dynastic ‘everyone is a Skywalker or a Palpatine’ from the rest of the new trilogy.
Pondering it further, I have a horrible feeling that Palpatine’s plan is a wholly literal take from Obi-Wan saying ‘strike me down and I will be more powerful than you can imagine’ from the original trilogy.
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In my opinion this was the best movie of the new trilogy, though mainly because the first two were awful. I went into the cinema thinking "let's get over with it finally", but RoS turned out to be a surprisingly entertaining action movie...
On December 21 2019 07:27 Sermokala wrote:
It was going at such a pace that you never `really have time to question things. It had no real downtime that wasn't serving the plot.
and this is exactly what I think "saved" the movie in my eyes. It was entertaining from start to finish, blatantly stupid but entertaining. Previous two movies (especially the second one) didn't have that. Their poor pacing exposed their bad writing. To me they were simply boring despite all the flashy stuff happening on the screen.
It's fair to say we should expect more from the last of movie of a "trilogy of trilogies", but after the TLJ my expectations were so low that the stupid plot didn't bother me too much. RoS definitely could be better, but it's good enough to describe it as a "watch and forget" kind of movie.
I think Revenge of the Sith and maybe even Phantom Menace were much better than the sequels, though that's probably just my nostalgia.
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Canada11350 Posts
I think the ancestry of Rey came from a couple places- one TFA teases the heck out of it, including that the 'lightsaber calls to you' mind-trip vision where they threw everything and the kitchen sink, including isolating Alec Guinness' voice to get him to say "Rey". So if you foolishly though this series was planned out, you might think they were including clues in that vision. Then Rey just seems to download Force powers like she's in the Matrix, so powerful ancestry served as a possible explanation, assuming the film makers had a plan and cared about little things like consistency and giving more than handwaves and lampshades as stand ins for actual thoughtful causation and explanation.
For myself, I thought the best explanation would be if she was simply the child of some of Luke's students from the Academy. They initially survived, were being pursued by Kylo or his 'nearly-not-appearing-in-this-series' Knights of Ren, so drop her off and keep going until they are hunted down and kill. Could make sense of Kylo's 'what girl' plus the trippy academy vision, plus she would've had some previous training with movie amnesia, so she is partially relearning past skills and then adding. Thus explaining her quick learning curve without resorting to important lineages.
But whatever, none of this was planned, so this is the mess we get.
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I think JJ certainly had a plan, all the breadcrumbs in TFA and RoS trying to cram 2 films into 1 leads me to believe this.
The problem is the person in charge of the franchise let Rian shit all over what JJ was doing to the point where Rian didn't just ignore the breadcrumbs but deliberately destroyed them.
Not to say JJ's story was going to be great or even 'ok' but I put the blame for the problems with the disjointed 'trilogy' squarely at Kathleen Kennedy's feet. Either you completely abandon JJ's plans after TFA and you don't bring him back to make RoS or you don't let Rian destroy the story in TLJ.
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On December 28 2019 23:31 Sent. wrote:
and this is exactly what I think "saved" the movie in my eyes. It was entertaining from start to finish, blatantly stupid but entertaining.
+1, that was my experience. the visuals and combat were good. The people I went with knew a lot more about Star Wars and were complaining about "plot holes" I didn't understand. I saw about ..i dunno.. maybe 1/5 of the plot holes they saw.
When it comes to the Disney Star Wars trilogy ignorance is bliss.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51485 Posts
I could write an essay on what the hell happened in this film and this trilogy but i won't because it is pointless. All i will say is they had SO MUCH potential and it feels all wasted and from Disney point of view that makes no sense, they normally love cashing in and they didn't.
I also would say imo at least they got Kylo Ren as a character spot on and worked him well during this trilogy. Maybe a bit weird in episode 8 but it worked, i liked his story, his struggles and turmoil he had during the course of the stories. The ending was ok as well and im glad he found his way back to the light just the same way his grandfather did, i mean if you took Rey out of the film entirely i would not have minded Kylo Ren being the main attraction to it with a bit more of a dark story.
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I just watched Ep. 5 again and now I'm both happy and sad. That movie was so awesome. The banter, the cinematography, the characters... Everyone did things for a reason. That's the problem with franchises: You can't force magic to happen. The first two Star Wars movies were a perfect storm. Everything came together perfectly. Lucas' great ideas, the good casting choices, the unique designs, the amazing sceneries and effects, John Williams' outstanding score. It's impossible to repeat something like that. The prequels should have been lesson enough. I also noticed something during the Vader vs. Luke fight: Their movement was clunky and slow in comparison to the modern fights. But there was TENSION. I don't need flashy CGI bullshit, I need suspense in an action movie. (That's also the reason why Die Hard still is one of the best.)
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John Williams' outstanding score
This reminds me I don't remember anything special about the music in sequels. Prequels had their Duel of Fates, old trilogy had its, well, everything, but sequels? Nothing characteristic comes to my mind.
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The movie was bad but at least it had Papa Sheev in it so I like it the most out of the new movies (except Rogue One)
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On December 28 2019 21:50 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2019 15:26 KwarK wrote:
Also all through TFA we had the whole "who is Rey, where does she come from?" thing with nerds trying to work out if she was a secret Skywalker or Obi Wan Kenobi's lovechild or whatever because you can't just have a new protagonist who isn't secretly related to someone.
Then in TLJ they go hard on "no, she's a nobody, the force is getting democratized, no more lineages and midichlorians, the force acts through all people who believe in justice and want to support life, we're going to have all these scenes of oppression and injustice in this weird social justice casino planet which ends with random children becoming force sensitive because that is the direction we want to take this franchise"
Then TRoS it's suddenly "yeah so let's not talk about anything that happened in TLJ, like any of it, she's a secret Palpatine somehow but like that never came up before and nobody, not Luke, not Anakin, not any of the Empire people, knew about Palpatine having like a fucking family or whatever. Anyway, all force users are part of these special sacred bloodlines, now let's talk power levels. Nerds fucking love power levels". Also why the focus on parental lineage anyway? This universe is a total mess. The Jedi have to be celibate for, some reason and Anakin was the exception to this particular rule, but let’s focus the new trilogy on the children of people we already know.
The Jedi were rigid like that since their inception. It was only after the Jedi Order was destroyed that Luke changed that rule after he remade the Jedi Order after the events of the OT. Luke also married Mara Jade and had a son with her called Ben (named after Obi-Wan). The new trilogy makes an amalgam of Luke's son and Leia's son, so its neither Ben Skywalker nor Jacen Solo, but fuses them together in Ben Solo.
For some reason they kept this bullshit rule in the new trilogy, but I think there are 2 reasons for it: one because JJ set it up in TFA, then Rian tried to move away from this when they had Rey being a nobody (which I actually liked), but then JJ made her a Palpatine (which i didnt like) to poo back at Rian for obvious reasons. The tug of war between the 2 directors and the lack of coherent vision for the whole trilogy is what created this mess. The last move by JJ, in my view was a desperation act, as was the return of Darth Sidous. However, through most of the Star Wars literature (both comics and books) lineage isnt that important, only the movies focus heavily on it. Which is understandable, because even in Lucas' mind, Star Wars among other things, at its core has always been about the dysfunctional family of the Skywalkers.
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I have to say though - Sidious is becoming a laughing stock now with his plans failing over and over in the same ways. Very disappointing for the ultimate Star Wars villain.
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Northern Ireland25381 Posts
On December 29 2019 20:33 Charoisaur wrote:
I have to say though - Sidious is becoming a laughing stock now with his plans failing over and over in the same ways. Very disappointing for the ultimate Star Wars villain.
You’d think he’d have learn not to try and convert the Jedi type to the dark side at the exact same time you’re having your climatic space battle.
He’s like the person who’s scheduled two dates at the same place and the same time.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51485 Posts
On December 29 2019 20:06 FreakyDroid wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2019 21:50 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 28 2019 15:26 KwarK wrote:
Also all through TFA we had the whole "who is Rey, where does she come from?" thing with nerds trying to work out if she was a secret Skywalker or Obi Wan Kenobi's lovechild or whatever because you can't just have a new protagonist who isn't secretly related to someone.
Then in TLJ they go hard on "no, she's a nobody, the force is getting democratized, no more lineages and midichlorians, the force acts through all people who believe in justice and want to support life, we're going to have all these scenes of oppression and injustice in this weird social justice casino planet which ends with random children becoming force sensitive because that is the direction we want to take this franchise"
Then TRoS it's suddenly "yeah so let's not talk about anything that happened in TLJ, like any of it, she's a secret Palpatine somehow but like that never came up before and nobody, not Luke, not Anakin, not any of the Empire people, knew about Palpatine having like a fucking family or whatever. Anyway, all force users are part of these special sacred bloodlines, now let's talk power levels. Nerds fucking love power levels". Also why the focus on parental lineage anyway? This universe is a total mess. The Jedi have to be celibate for, some reason and Anakin was the exception to this particular rule, but let’s focus the new trilogy on the children of people we already know. The Jedi were rigid like that since their inception. It was only after the Jedi Order was destroyed that Luke changed that rule after he remade the Jedi Order after the events of the OT. Luke also married Mara Jade and had a son with her called Ben (named after Obi-Wan). The new trilogy makes an amalgam of Luke's son and Leia's son, so its neither Ben Skywalker nor Jacen Solo, but fuses them together in Ben Solo. For some reason they kept this bullshit rule in the new trilogy, but I think there are 2 reasons for it: one because JJ set it up in TFA, then Rian tried to move away from this when they had Rey being a nobody (which I actually liked), but then JJ made her a Palpatine (which i didnt like) to poo back at Rian for obvious reasons. The tug of war between the 2 directors and the lack of coherent vision for the whole trilogy is what created this mess. The last move by JJ, in my view was a desperation act, as was the return of Darth Sidous. However, through most of the Star Wars literature (both comics and books) lineage isnt that important, only the movies focus heavily on it. Which is understandable, because even in Lucas' mind, Star Wars among other things, at its core has always been about the dysfunctional family of the Skywalkers.
Yeah if they just gave the trilogy and a story to JJ at the start of this and said this is the plan we have, can you make the 3 films like this and he would have took his money and did it. He probs would have altered a bit and agreed a few things with Disney and at least the film would follow a path whether good nor bad as a whole it would have at least made a bit more sense. The reason this trilogy is poor i think is as you pointed at here is that Rian's movie was a complete left field movie compared to the one before it and the one that followed it.
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On December 29 2019 21:51 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2019 20:33 Charoisaur wrote:
I have to say though - Sidious is becoming a laughing stock now with his plans failing over and over in the same ways. Very disappointing for the ultimate Star Wars villain. He’s like the person who’s scheduled two dates at the same place and the same time.
Hahah this made me chuckle.
I just couldn't take Palpatine seriously in TRoS. He was actually scary in the original movies, heck even in Revenge of the Sith which I nostalgically cherish I liked the character. Now he wasn't intimidating at all, never did I question that his plans would not fail catastrophically.
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On December 29 2019 06:39 Pandemona wrote:
I could write an essay on what the hell happened in this film and this trilogy but i won't because it is pointless. All i will say is they had SO MUCH potential and it feels all wasted and from Disney point of view that makes no sense, they normally love cashing in and they didn't.
That's the part where Youtubers point to when they talk about this trilogy being all about political agenda. If all you wanted to do was print money, you'd play to the already existing HUGE fanbase. The sequel trilogy actively ATTACKS that fanbase. Why? It doesn't make sense for any kind of media property to do that.
Kathleen Kennedy clearly has some form of ulterior motive that doesn't involve just making money. That's the part that really pisses fans off, because her ulterior motive is clearly attacking them.
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Watched it yesterday and only thing I can say is that i feel...embarrassed/uncomfortable...like not in a SJW way uncomfortable, it's just bad. I'm kinda glad this thing is over since I actually had to force myself to go see it, and before I've been big SW fan since the first time i saw OT movies in 1997.
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Canada8989 Posts
On December 29 2019 23:53 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2019 06:39 Pandemona wrote:
I could write an essay on what the hell happened in this film and this trilogy but i won't because it is pointless. All i will say is they had SO MUCH potential and it feels all wasted and from Disney point of view that makes no sense, they normally love cashing in and they didn't.
That's the part where Youtubers point to when they talk about this trilogy being all about political agenda. If all you wanted to do was print money, you'd play to the already existing HUGE fanbase. The sequel trilogy actively ATTACKS that fanbase. Why? It doesn't make sense for any kind of media property to do that. Kathleen Kennedy clearly has some form of ulterior motive that doesn't involve just making money. That's the part that really pisses fans off, because her ulterior motive is clearly attacking them.
Nah I'm pretty sure it's just about making money and selling toys and spinoff show, and the fanbase is clearly not enough. I'm fairly sure KK dosen't give a fuck about "attacking the fanbase" there's just more money to make outside of it than inside it.
I mean it work out well TFA and TLJ are both in the top 15 of highest grossing movie (TFA is in the top5)
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51485 Posts
Yeah Disney is all about making money that is why it is buying up every market share they can and appeasing China at the same time, i have no problems with that until it gets to the point where they mess up things like Star Wars movies. However like i said it made no sense to do that with this when there was so much money be able to make.
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Northern Ireland25381 Posts
On December 29 2019 23:53 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2019 06:39 Pandemona wrote:
I could write an essay on what the hell happened in this film and this trilogy but i won't because it is pointless. All i will say is they had SO MUCH potential and it feels all wasted and from Disney point of view that makes no sense, they normally love cashing in and they didn't.
That's the part where Youtubers point to when they talk about this trilogy being all about political agenda. If all you wanted to do was print money, you'd play to the already existing HUGE fanbase. The sequel trilogy actively ATTACKS that fanbase. Why? It doesn't make sense for any kind of media property to do that. Kathleen Kennedy clearly has some form of ulterior motive that doesn't involve just making money. That's the part that really pisses fans off, because her ulterior motive is clearly attacking them.
I mean a lot of people say this but I don’t really get where they’re coming from, on attacking the fans and especially not this supposed political agenda. The latter I think is a realllll stretch from what angles I’ve encountered.
I’m not as invested in the franchise as some sure, but there’s this relentless toxicity coming out of certain corners that is so unnecessary, they are just films after all.
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Sometimes when you take a person who has decades of experience and you move them up a notch into the final decision maker role they end up falling flat. That is what is going on with Kathleen Kennedy I think. She has proven there are many things she can do effectively. She has been in the industry for decades. She is a smart person.
It reminds me of these sports executive who has been successful in every single role except "President of Basketball/Baseball/Hockey Operations". Guys like Rob Babcock or Phil Jackson get promoted to "President Of Everything" and even though they've succeeded in many other roles ... they just plain fail.
OTOH, you have relative nobodies like Pat Gillick or Andrew Friedman. Guys with no outstanding pedigree of any kind. Guys who no one even wants to hire in the first place. Just seemingly average guys... and you make them the "President of Baseball Operations" and they turn out out to be a once in a lifetime management specialist. These guys are not particularly charismatic... when you scratch the surface you discover they are are brilliant and rather bland as personalities. Guys like this often have unusual opinions few others share. They are also off the charts amazing Presidents of Baseball Operations.
Promoting into the final decision maker role is risky. They is no sure fire formula for finding that one amazing executive.
The problem is that their is a very vocal segment of Star Wars fans that probably numbers in the millions that is so emotional about the franchise that when a bad hire is made they talk about it like the final Apocalypse is nigh.
Kathleen Kennedy is the Rob Babcock or Phil Jackson of movie franchises.
There is a young Pat Gillick or Andrew Friedman or Masai Ujiri somewhere. On the surface ...seemingly average joes. if Bob Iger can find and promote that type of talent then Disney will easily turn this Star Wars franchise within 3 years at most. Top executives like Gillick, Friedman, and Ujiri are hard to spot though.
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EPT
