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Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker SPOILERS ALLOWED - Page 10

Forum Index > Media & Entertainment
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KobraKay
Profile Joined March 2010
Portugal4231 Posts
December 24 2019 16:20 GMT
#181
On December 25 2019 00:02 LegalLord wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 24 2019 18:24 TaardadAiel wrote:
Haven't watched it yet and for the first time I doubt I ever will. TLJ was one of the worst movies I've seen in the last decade and I'm downright scared of seeing another fiasco like this one.

Putting political agenda in an art piece is not fundamentally wrong, it's been done a million times with varying success. If you screw up the plot and atmosphere and create a myriad of shallow, non-believable characters BECAUSE you sent a political message, then you'll get backlash both for the political stuff and the bad writing. That's what TLJ was and I expect more of the same in episode IX. So any and all spoilers about the positive aspects of the movie besides the good visuals and score are welcome. Please, I don't want to hate SW. I love the extended universe and was so pissed that Disney destroyed the canon.

I don't know what kind of Star Wars fan you are, or how critical you'd be of its faults. What perhaps might give you some pause is that the consensus seems to be that if you hated TLJ, you probably will like (but not love) this movie - whereas most people who had a favorable opinion of TLJ would be less fond of this one. I personally thought TLJ was abominable, and that this movie, for all its flaws, was quite alright. RoS definitely isn't a politically preachy movie, it's just the more traditional Star Wars done alright but not phenomenally. Its biggest flaw is the pacing, and its most direct analogue in the existing Star Wars fandom is the Dark Empire series.

My recommendation is, don't look for spoilers. I made the mistake of reading like 3-4 of them, which kind of ruined the immersion by making me try to anticipate the plot points. The story ended up better than the spoilers in isolation made it look. If you're not the kind of fan who seeks to nitpick every fault, there's going to be a lot of cool stuff to enjoy. It doesn't fail fundamentally as a cinematic work the way that TLJ does; it merely "has faults."

JJ, in his usual style, does better with characters than with plot. Almost all the characters get a send-off worthy of their design by the end. My favorite one:

+ Show Spoiler [Tags just for fun] +
Hux. Didn't really like the way he was relegated into a joke role in Ep 8, but this movie rolled with it in a surprisingly amusing way. Demoted in the First Order command and clearly upset about it. Ends up as the spy, with a line that I felt really perfectly encompasses his character: "I don't care if you win, I just want Kylo Ren to lose!" Much as I hate the original character assassination Johnson did, that follow-up is just so perfectly Hux that I can't help but love it.


Not sure I agree with that. I am generally someone who watches movies for what they are and am ok with ignoring glaring plot/acting holes if the movie is a fun experience (as in I dont disect every bit about a movie to find complaints and all that). My line is so low that I dont remember the last time I really thought "this movie is crap and I have paid to watch this, damn". Then there is TLJ...it is that bad and I am not even a huge sw fan. There is something bizarre going from almost start to finish.

Yet, I still hated this one and left with the same question "why have I paid to watch this?". This one has some ok parts and not so many bizarre moments like TLJ, but it still suffers from the same faults. So to me, if you did not like the previous one, chances are you are still going to hate this one.
CJ Fighting! (--.--)
JimmyJRaynor
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada16704 Posts
December 24 2019 17:36 GMT
#182
On December 25 2019 00:53 palexhur wrote:
The problem that they have, is that the force users are so fu... op now, you have to get rid of that theme to make something good about SW, like The Mandalorian, and only because the force user is a baby.

This is an excellent point. They've used the force as a "Get Out Of Jail Free" card too many times.
Ray Kassar To David Crane : "you're no more important to Atari than the factory workers assembling the cartridges"
Falling
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Canada11350 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-12-24 18:18:31
December 24 2019 18:18 GMT
#183
I've seen a rather strange overlap actually. The ones that really liked TLJ and the ones that really hated TLJ both don't like Rise of Skywalker. Whereas people just looking to see an action film and some spectacle in the form of Star Wars walked away enjoying alright. At any rate, it seems enough are liking it given that the audience score for RT has been locked at exactly 86% from 1k ratings to 44k ratings with no variation.
Moderator"In Trump We Trust," says the Golden Goat of Mars Lago. Have faith and believe! Trump moves in mysterious ways. Like the wind he blows where he pleases...
bertolo
Profile Joined June 2010
United States133 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-12-25 00:24:38
December 25 2019 00:20 GMT
#184
Yeah the 86% thing seems horribly suspect though to them just stopping the downfall to protect ratings.

The critics have actually dropped to 55% as more have come in. Not surprising though, after seeing it I have to agree it was another bad star wars movie. No respect for the movies that came before and zero imagination with new additions to the story.
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
December 25 2019 00:43 GMT
#185
The 86% audience approval makes far, far more sense than the mind-boggling 91% critic approval that TLJ got. I see why most people would give a favorable appraisal of this movie, even if a lot of folks don’t like it.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States13926 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-12-25 00:45:14
December 25 2019 00:44 GMT
#186
On December 25 2019 03:18 Falling wrote:
I've seen a rather strange overlap actually. The ones that really liked TLJ and the ones that really hated TLJ both don't like Rise of Skywalker. Whereas people just looking to see an action film and some spectacle in the form of Star Wars walked away enjoying alright. At any rate, it seems enough are liking it given that the audience score for RT has been locked at exactly 86% from 1k ratings to 44k ratings with no variation.

I'm as anti TLJ as anyone and I like ROS.

I think ROS is a lot like an hibachi. Its a real spectacle and a lot of people really like it. Despite all that its just a really expensive way to serve rather cheap ingredients in a faux-fancy way. There is a new Japanse fast food place in my town that serves the same things but just without all the show.

Edit: LL makes my point better then I did just above.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
Erasme
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Bahamas15899 Posts
December 25 2019 00:49 GMT
#187
On December 23 2019 15:24 Sermokala wrote:
Your post makes me think you didn't understand what was going on in the prequels. The people who were blockading the planet for some unspecified reason other then "Trade" are the same people who ignited the galaxy-spanning war spread out over thousands of planets with billions and billions dead. Why is everyone cool with going along with this massive war over a single planet thats bearly industrialized?

And again this war, the war at the core of the prequels, is never elaborated on or explained in any real way. The clone army (that was based on mandalorians who were what boba fet was based on, that turned into the stormtroopers) was straight up Hitler Jugend.

The two (really just the one because the final order fleet was made on the sith ice planet) massive fleet came from the fact that the empire was literally a galactic sprawling empire that didn't just poof out of existence after the death star blew up. those fleets had to go somewhere. SW was always like that. the first and third movies where basicaly the same but with different steps.

the prequels were total abominations. How much time did they spend with the pod racing scene that makes no sense (god solve the whole betting shenanigans they go through to reach "if we win we get the boy and the parts if we lose you get the rest of the ship") The sheer ammount of lazy "lets sit and talk" scenes that never approch any of the major themes like the actual war.

Jar Jar alone should be enough to explain to you why the prequels were so bad. I genuinely need like a few hours to find out why you think the prequels are good. You're lieing to yourself if you think the prequels had a frame with how wildly different the first and the next two were. A brand new stock villian with a lame gimmick lightsaber but at least he talks and has as nonexistent of a backstory.

Show nested quote +
On December 23 2019 09:57 Garbels wrote:
On December 23 2019 08:17 Sermokala wrote:
On December 23 2019 05:09 Garbels wrote:
Whats up with the ending?
It seems to me like the intended conclusion they want to give the audiene is that the good guys won while in reallity Palpatine got what he wanted, no?

He might not have died exactly like he ordered but I find it hart to believe that his 30 year masterplan war luring someone into his lair with no preparation and hope that they kill you in some speciffic way.

How did palpatine get what he wanted? his force lightning reflected back onto him and the sith temple was collapsed with his "last order" fleet being destroyed.


He wanted rey to kill him and she did.
He does not care about the rest.

Sure maybe he was banking an his followers to say 7 ave marias to complete the ritual.
Since they couldn't he is now dead.
Seems so silly but totally in line with the rest of the movie.

He wanted her to follow the ritual and "strike him down".

I'm not saying its not silly but you need to give it some wiggle room for it trying to create a finale out of the mess that TLJ was.

i cba to reply to everything so i'll just take your major points:
Jarjar is only seen in the first movie (except for one scene in the 2nd and one in the third) so taking him to say the rest is shit is definitly a bad argument
Dont understand why you would shit on the pod racing tho
So ye, you take 1h of the first movie to shit on everything else, then you wonder why people don't agree with u, big surprise
Theres a scene in the 4th i believe where they explain that a ton of planets got destroyed during the clone wars
Trade federation was under the control of Palpatine
The prequels had a frame since it was about the rise of anakin and his fall
While i agree that the reason of the trade wars arent explained, i'm fairly sure you'd be shitting on the political aspect of it if they spent any amount of time explaining it.
I guess most people defending the prequels are just tired of people shitting on it thanks to a youtube video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7lxwFEB6FI “‘Drain the swamp’? Stupid saying, means nothing, but you guys loved it so I kept saying it.”
palexhur
Profile Joined May 2010
Colombia730 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-12-25 01:42:11
December 25 2019 01:36 GMT
#188
On December 25 2019 09:43 LegalLord wrote:
The 86% audience approval makes far, far more sense than the mind-boggling 91% critic approval that TLJ got. I see why most people would give a favorable appraisal of this movie, even if a lot of folks don’t like it.


It seems that at the mark of 40k audience reviews total, 23k with very good califications, that 10k of the "verified" reviewers only has scored this movie, and something like 12k have not profile at all, reviews ratings are ea$y to manipulate.
Manit0u
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
Poland17257 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-12-25 02:16:41
December 25 2019 01:38 GMT
#189
On December 25 2019 09:43 LegalLord wrote:
The 86% audience approval makes far, far more sense than the mind-boggling 91% critic approval that TLJ got. I see why most people would give a favorable appraisal of this movie, even if a lot of folks don’t like it.


What doesn't make sense is that it didn't budge even slightly:


You can see that even the critics score goes up and down even with 400 votes but the audience score won't budge with 46k? Sure, it shouldn't budge as you already got to a bigger number and you're getting just a few votes in that won't matter in the big scale, but going from 1k to 40k should produce some swings. It's highly improbable that 45k people voted in exactly perfect fashion to keep it at a steady 86%.

Edit:

Just out of curiosity I wrote a rather simplistic program to simulate the reviews. If you get 21k generally positive reviews, intermingle around 3k reviews in the range of 30-60 and leave the rest as random reviews ranging from 0 to 100 you get something like that when it comes to the score (counted for 46k votes, each score shown at 1k votes).

+ Show Spoiler +

90
85
76
72
70
68
65
63
62
61
59
59
57
56
56
55
55
55
54
54
55
57
58
59
60
61
62
63
64
64
65
65
66
67
67
67
66
66
65
65
64
64
64
63
63


Now, if you still count it every 1k votes but drop the score distribution to not hit at even 1k you get something more realistic

+ Show Spoiler +

89
87
81
76
72
70
68
66
64
62
61
60
59
58
57
56
56
56
55
55
56
57
58
59
60
61
62
63
64
64
65
66
66
67
67
67
67
66
66
65
65
64
64
64
64


For the interested, the simplistic program I used to simulate this:
+ Show Spoiler +


@sum = 0
@score = 0

def update_score(iterations)
opinion = case iterations
when (1..1500)
rand(80..100)
when (1501..2500)
rand(70..90)
when (2501..6500)
rand(50..70)
when (12500..15500)
rand(30..60)
when (20501..35500)
rand(70..100)
else
rand(100)
end

@sum += opinion
@score = @sum / iterations
end

46_000.times do |i|
next if i.zero?

puts @score if i.modulo(1000).zero?

update_score(i)
end



If you want you can go and tinker around with it here: https://repl.it/languages/ruby

I'm not a statistics or even maths buff so I leave that for the others.
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States13926 Posts
December 25 2019 01:44 GMT
#190
But they did try to explain the political aspect of it. The whole core of the trilogy is that Palpatine is able to overthrow the republic and turn it into an empire with him and vader through this trade war, with the clone army as his enforcers. This trade war in the first is given massive unexplained importance, why does padme need to sign a treaty, why does a weeklong blockade of an unindustrialized planet equal starvation, the whole way the no-confidence vote is put through is beacuse people want to makes sure something is actually going on with the blockade (wildly reasonable) yet don't believe the two jedi, yet then when the jedi go back (with anikin for some reason) they only send two jedi, the same jedi they apparently don't trust. Politics is at the core of the prequels and its terrible because of it and all the inane shot-reverse shot conversations about it.

I only started in on the first one for the most part because I'd be here all day and write pages and pages if I didn't stop myself at some point. Why does no one question the mysterious clone army? How do they pay for the army and its upkeep? If the separatists were really concerned over trade route taxes why does no one see the fact that its obviously cheaper to compromise on taxes instead of paying for a massive military. Why is everyone okay with the fact that this new clone army is literally a copy of Mandalorians (who devastated the republic in an age past) Why is the jedi suddenly okay with being pressed into being the generals for this army? Ironically the last time the jedi participated in a war like this they had a massive backlash as the jedi who went to war became sith in the same war with the Mandalorians they are now fighting beside.

Again planets are being destroyed and billions apon billions are dieing and for what? oh but thats too much poltiics I guess. Don't even get me started on the worst ever romance and worst ever friendship.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
December 25 2019 04:46 GMT
#191
On December 25 2019 10:38 Manit0u wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 25 2019 09:43 LegalLord wrote:
The 86% audience approval makes far, far more sense than the mind-boggling 91% critic approval that TLJ got. I see why most people would give a favorable appraisal of this movie, even if a lot of folks don’t like it.


What doesn't make sense is that it didn't budge even slightly.

Indeed, that is a little odd. But I would not be surprised if RT has an algorithm in place that is something like “after 10k entries, update the percentage only once weekly.” It’s usually something trivial like that.

The unmoving nature of the rating seems to be used to imply that viewers are actually not so fond of the movie and that RT is masking it, which really doesn’t seem to be the case. Just a quick sample on a couple of pages of reviews makes it look like something like 8 out of 10 people see the movie more favorably than not, which is quite consistent with the 86%.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Manit0u
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
Poland17257 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-12-25 05:13:31
December 25 2019 05:08 GMT
#192
On December 25 2019 13:46 LegalLord wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 25 2019 10:38 Manit0u wrote:
On December 25 2019 09:43 LegalLord wrote:
The 86% audience approval makes far, far more sense than the mind-boggling 91% critic approval that TLJ got. I see why most people would give a favorable appraisal of this movie, even if a lot of folks don’t like it.


What doesn't make sense is that it didn't budge even slightly.

Indeed, that is a little odd. But I would not be surprised if RT has an algorithm in place that is something like “after 10k entries, update the percentage only once weekly.” It’s usually something trivial like that.

The unmoving nature of the rating seems to be used to imply that viewers are actually not so fond of the movie and that RT is masking it, which really doesn’t seem to be the case. Just a quick sample on a couple of pages of reviews makes it look like something like 8 out of 10 people see the movie more favorably than not, which is quite consistent with the 86%.


No, it's not so trivial since in the timelapse of RT screenshots you can clearly see the percentages being updated with every few entries (both for critics and audience) and then when audience score drops to 86% it stops while the critics score is still going up and down.

Also, user reviews being favorable doesn't matter at all since there are only 12k reviews (both confirmed and unconfirmed) and the rating comes from 46k people. So, even if all the reviews would be favorable this would still leave the majority of ratings to be able to swing it either way.

I know that not everyone hated this movie, but 86% seems really high for a movie that effects such polarizing opinions. It would be more believable if it were somewhere around the 40-60% range, leaning towards the majority (positive or negative). Judging from the articles and reviews alone I find it hard to believe that the vast majority liked it, let alone liked it enough to give it score in the 90-100% range to offset the negative reviews.

IMDB has it at 7/10 right now (this means mostly negative reviews since all movies start at 7.4/10 on IMDB) while metacritic at 54/100 (with the most favorable from the aggregated ratings being 75/100).

In any case, after the Captain Marvel debacle and now this I'm not trusting RT scores in the slightest any more.
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.
Tal
Profile Blog Joined May 2004
United Kingdom1015 Posts
December 25 2019 09:38 GMT
#193
Massively disappointing. Yes, it was exciting and looked great, but it was basically just a super hero movie, complete with endless "are they dead? No they aren't" fakeouts.

For Force Awakens, I was happy to give them the benefit of the doubt on lack of new ideas, and thought it was a solid film. But Rise of Skywalker literally had nothing new either. Not a single interesting concept, or even good bit of dialog.

TLJ was a mess too, but at least had that one great scene at the end with Luke facing down the First Order.
It is what you read when you don't have to that determines what you will be when you can't help it.
TheEmulator
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
28089 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-12-25 09:46:43
December 25 2019 09:43 GMT
#194
On December 25 2019 18:38 Tal wrote:
Massively disappointing. Yes, it was exciting and looked great, but it was basically just a super hero movie, complete with endless "are they dead? No they aren't" fakeouts.

For Force Awakens, I was happy to give them the benefit of the doubt on lack of new ideas, and thought it was a solid film. But Rise of Skywalker literally had nothing new either. Not a single interesting concept, or even good bit of dialog.

TLJ was a mess too, but at least had that one great scene at the end with Luke facing down the First Order.

The thing I liked about TFA was that it actually made me excited to see the next movie. It did its job which was to set up the storylines and get people up to date with the SW universe 30-40 years later. Coming into TLJ people were excited to see what Luke was up to, who Snoke was, Rey’s background, etc.

TLJ on the other hand set up absolutely nothing for the next movie. I had 0 expectations coming into it.
Administrator
Tal
Profile Blog Joined May 2004
United Kingdom1015 Posts
December 25 2019 09:50 GMT
#195
On December 25 2019 18:43 TheEmulator wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 25 2019 18:38 Tal wrote:
Massively disappointing. Yes, it was exciting and looked great, but it was basically just a super hero movie, complete with endless "are they dead? No they aren't" fakeouts.

For Force Awakens, I was happy to give them the benefit of the doubt on lack of new ideas, and thought it was a solid film. But Rise of Skywalker literally had nothing new either. Not a single interesting concept, or even good bit of dialog.

TLJ was a mess too, but at least had that one great scene at the end with Luke facing down the First Order.

The thing I liked about TFA was that it actually made me excited to see the next movie. It did its job which was to set up the storylines and get people up to date with the SW universe 30-40 years later. Coming into TLJ people were excited to see what Luke was up to, who Snoke was, Rey’s background, etc.

TLJ on the other hand set up absolutely nothing for the next movie. I had 0 expectations coming into it.


Yeah, I'd agree with that. It was also showing people you could have a good star wars movie after the prequels, and introducing a whole new cast, and was all pretty successful. It was also funny, with some great lines and moments.
It is what you read when you don't have to that determines what you will be when you can't help it.
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25307 Posts
December 25 2019 10:54 GMT
#196
On December 25 2019 09:49 Erasme wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 23 2019 15:24 Sermokala wrote:
Your post makes me think you didn't understand what was going on in the prequels. The people who were blockading the planet for some unspecified reason other then "Trade" are the same people who ignited the galaxy-spanning war spread out over thousands of planets with billions and billions dead. Why is everyone cool with going along with this massive war over a single planet thats bearly industrialized?

And again this war, the war at the core of the prequels, is never elaborated on or explained in any real way. The clone army (that was based on mandalorians who were what boba fet was based on, that turned into the stormtroopers) was straight up Hitler Jugend.

The two (really just the one because the final order fleet was made on the sith ice planet) massive fleet came from the fact that the empire was literally a galactic sprawling empire that didn't just poof out of existence after the death star blew up. those fleets had to go somewhere. SW was always like that. the first and third movies where basicaly the same but with different steps.

the prequels were total abominations. How much time did they spend with the pod racing scene that makes no sense (god solve the whole betting shenanigans they go through to reach "if we win we get the boy and the parts if we lose you get the rest of the ship") The sheer ammount of lazy "lets sit and talk" scenes that never approch any of the major themes like the actual war.

Jar Jar alone should be enough to explain to you why the prequels were so bad. I genuinely need like a few hours to find out why you think the prequels are good. You're lieing to yourself if you think the prequels had a frame with how wildly different the first and the next two were. A brand new stock villian with a lame gimmick lightsaber but at least he talks and has as nonexistent of a backstory.

On December 23 2019 09:57 Garbels wrote:
On December 23 2019 08:17 Sermokala wrote:
On December 23 2019 05:09 Garbels wrote:
Whats up with the ending?
It seems to me like the intended conclusion they want to give the audiene is that the good guys won while in reallity Palpatine got what he wanted, no?

He might not have died exactly like he ordered but I find it hart to believe that his 30 year masterplan war luring someone into his lair with no preparation and hope that they kill you in some speciffic way.

How did palpatine get what he wanted? his force lightning reflected back onto him and the sith temple was collapsed with his "last order" fleet being destroyed.


He wanted rey to kill him and she did.
He does not care about the rest.

Sure maybe he was banking an his followers to say 7 ave marias to complete the ritual.
Since they couldn't he is now dead.
Seems so silly but totally in line with the rest of the movie.

He wanted her to follow the ritual and "strike him down".

I'm not saying its not silly but you need to give it some wiggle room for it trying to create a finale out of the mess that TLJ was.

i cba to reply to everything so i'll just take your major points:
Jarjar is only seen in the first movie (except for one scene in the 2nd and one in the third) so taking him to say the rest is shit is definitly a bad argument
Dont understand why you would shit on the pod racing tho
So ye, you take 1h of the first movie to shit on everything else, then you wonder why people don't agree with u, big surprise
Theres a scene in the 4th i believe where they explain that a ton of planets got destroyed during the clone wars
Trade federation was under the control of Palpatine
The prequels had a frame since it was about the rise of anakin and his fall
While i agree that the reason of the trade wars arent explained, i'm fairly sure you'd be shitting on the political aspect of it if they spent any amount of time explaining it.
I guess most people defending the prequels are just tired of people shitting on it thanks to a youtube video

The first hour of the film is pretty illustrative of the Prequels problems though, the pacing is really messy.

Phantom Menace takes forever to get going, conversely there isn’t enough stuff fleshing out the central frame as you like to call it, or doing it badly. If they gave more time to Anakin and Obi-Wan together, likewise Padme and do it better then his fall is more believably tragic. Clone Wars did a way, way better job there.

What does Palpatine have to offer the Trade Federation anyway? Given that nobody appears to know who he actually is, what cards is he playing with here?

Fair play to Lucas for doing something other than good guys have to stop the bad guys and their planet destroying machine, just a pity the films weren’t better. There was plenty of potential squandered because nobody reined him in.

Do we get the brash, headstrong, arrogant Jedi doomed to fall to the dark side to leap out of a window into space traffic, or jump into a room of battle droids saying ‘hello there’ or do we get the Jedi who’s supposed to be the wise and reserved one to do it?

I’m sure plenty are regurgitating stuff from certain videos now. When I first watched the original RLM it was in the early years of YouTube and it was more cathartic retreading of something I hadn’t lived up to my young hype when I saw it in the cinema and hadn’t quite put my finger on why.

I mean like the Prequels by all means of course, just I think they are deeply flawed. Seeing an increasing amount of defence that seems very hipster like (not here just in general), where people criticise the new trilogy for the exact same things the Prequels do which they say are good (Mary Sue characters, out of tone bad attempts at humour etc).

That or people who really like the EU tend to defend the Prequels a lot more, perhaps some of the plot holes and weird logic are filled in more if you’ve more exposure to that.


'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
TaardadAiel
Profile Joined May 2017
Bulgaria750 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-12-25 11:45:05
December 25 2019 11:32 GMT
#197
On December 25 2019 00:02 LegalLord wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 24 2019 18:24 TaardadAiel wrote:
Haven't watched it yet and for the first time I doubt I ever will. TLJ was one of the worst movies I've seen in the last decade and I'm downright scared of seeing another fiasco like this one.

Putting political agenda in an art piece is not fundamentally wrong, it's been done a million times with varying success. If you screw up the plot and atmosphere and create a myriad of shallow, non-believable characters BECAUSE you sent a political message, then you'll get backlash both for the political stuff and the bad writing. That's what TLJ was and I expect more of the same in episode IX. So any and all spoilers about the positive aspects of the movie besides the good visuals and score are welcome. Please, I don't want to hate SW. I love the extended universe and was so pissed that Disney destroyed the canon.

I don't know what kind of Star Wars fan you are, or how critical you'd be of its faults. What perhaps might give you some pause is that the consensus seems to be that if you hated TLJ, you probably will like (but not love) this movie - whereas most people who had a favorable opinion of TLJ would be less fond of this one. I personally thought TLJ was abominable, and that this movie, for all its flaws, was quite alright. RoS definitely isn't a politically preachy movie, it's just the more traditional Star Wars done alright but not phenomenally. Its biggest flaw is the pacing, and its most direct analogue in the existing Star Wars fandom is the Dark Empire series.

My recommendation is, don't look for spoilers. I made the mistake of reading like 3-4 of them, which kind of ruined the immersion by making me try to anticipate the plot points. The story ended up better than the spoilers in isolation made it look. If you're not the kind of fan who seeks to nitpick every fault, there's going to be a lot of cool stuff to enjoy. It doesn't fail fundamentally as a cinematic work the way that TLJ does; it merely "has faults."

JJ, in his usual style, does better with characters than with plot. Almost all the characters get a send-off worthy of their design by the end. My favorite one:

+ Show Spoiler [Tags just for fun] +
Hux. Didn't really like the way he was relegated into a joke role in Ep 8, but this movie rolled with it in a surprisingly amusing way. Demoted in the First Order command and clearly upset about it. Ends up as the spy, with a line that I felt really perfectly encompasses his character: "I don't care if you win, I just want Kylo Ren to lose!" Much as I hate the original character assassination Johnson did, that follow-up is just so perfectly Hux that I can't help but love it.


I'm somewhere between a hardcore fan and a casual fan. Not really into the Force stuff, the Jedi are an important aspect of the SW universe, but not exactly at the center for me (although I understand the Skywalker family saga is in the center of the first six movies and it works well). I prefer the space battles and such. The X-wing novels and the Thrawn trilogy are, consequently, my favorite EU works. What I value the most, however, are characters and their development. And this is where TLJ failed the most, for me.

Good thing that you bring out Hux. He feels so fake in the SW universe, where we had the Imperial Navy as one of the most fearsome fighting forces in the galaxy. They didn't care for the lives of their men, a cruel and merciless form of meritocracy plus heavy nepotism in the upper ranks. And in TLJ we have an insolent childish immature high-ranked officer for the FO, who just gets scolded by a Vader wannabe that feels more like a school bully than an actual dark knight. He did get force-choked for his insolence, but way later than Lord Vader would have back in my day - and he survived it.
We also have a hotshot brat without ANY sense of perspective posing as a fighter ace. Poe was a particularly painful blow for me, because we already had Wedge - an actual leader, a brilliant pilot and a fine tactician. Nobody knows what they're doing in this movie. The villains are not intimidating and the protagonists are clumsy and inept. Adam Driver used to serve in the Marine Corps, FFS, he's probably intimidating in real life and yet Kylo fails to instill any fear in the viewer. I can't help but think all this deconstruction is deliberate.

Of course, there are the outright dumb moments like Leia floating unconscious in hard vacuum.

And we have the early and fairly underwhelming demise of what we knew as The Big Villain.

And the viewers' time is wasted with plot lines that lead nowhere, like the whole journey to the casino for the filthy rich. Again, I'm ok with sending a political message, but you need to do a good job with it or it just feels forced.

Enough with the rant, I like what you say about the characters. The Hux thing sounds like a throwback to Kirtan Loor, a nice trope. I really hope there is a charming rogue kind of guy, because the arms dealer/code slicer was the only believable character in TLJ and Del Toro did more in like four minutes of screen time than Ridley does in two movies. I'm actually interested by that guy and not the protagonist, way to go.
WriterReV hwaiting!
Stratos_speAr
Profile Joined May 2009
United States6959 Posts
December 25 2019 14:23 GMT
#198
On December 25 2019 19:54 Wombat_NI wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 25 2019 09:49 Erasme wrote:
On December 23 2019 15:24 Sermokala wrote:
Your post makes me think you didn't understand what was going on in the prequels. The people who were blockading the planet for some unspecified reason other then "Trade" are the same people who ignited the galaxy-spanning war spread out over thousands of planets with billions and billions dead. Why is everyone cool with going along with this massive war over a single planet thats bearly industrialized?

And again this war, the war at the core of the prequels, is never elaborated on or explained in any real way. The clone army (that was based on mandalorians who were what boba fet was based on, that turned into the stormtroopers) was straight up Hitler Jugend.

The two (really just the one because the final order fleet was made on the sith ice planet) massive fleet came from the fact that the empire was literally a galactic sprawling empire that didn't just poof out of existence after the death star blew up. those fleets had to go somewhere. SW was always like that. the first and third movies where basicaly the same but with different steps.

the prequels were total abominations. How much time did they spend with the pod racing scene that makes no sense (god solve the whole betting shenanigans they go through to reach "if we win we get the boy and the parts if we lose you get the rest of the ship") The sheer ammount of lazy "lets sit and talk" scenes that never approch any of the major themes like the actual war.

Jar Jar alone should be enough to explain to you why the prequels were so bad. I genuinely need like a few hours to find out why you think the prequels are good. You're lieing to yourself if you think the prequels had a frame with how wildly different the first and the next two were. A brand new stock villian with a lame gimmick lightsaber but at least he talks and has as nonexistent of a backstory.

On December 23 2019 09:57 Garbels wrote:
On December 23 2019 08:17 Sermokala wrote:
On December 23 2019 05:09 Garbels wrote:
Whats up with the ending?
It seems to me like the intended conclusion they want to give the audiene is that the good guys won while in reallity Palpatine got what he wanted, no?

He might not have died exactly like he ordered but I find it hart to believe that his 30 year masterplan war luring someone into his lair with no preparation and hope that they kill you in some speciffic way.

How did palpatine get what he wanted? his force lightning reflected back onto him and the sith temple was collapsed with his "last order" fleet being destroyed.


He wanted rey to kill him and she did.
He does not care about the rest.

Sure maybe he was banking an his followers to say 7 ave marias to complete the ritual.
Since they couldn't he is now dead.
Seems so silly but totally in line with the rest of the movie.

He wanted her to follow the ritual and "strike him down".

I'm not saying its not silly but you need to give it some wiggle room for it trying to create a finale out of the mess that TLJ was.

i cba to reply to everything so i'll just take your major points:
Jarjar is only seen in the first movie (except for one scene in the 2nd and one in the third) so taking him to say the rest is shit is definitly a bad argument
Dont understand why you would shit on the pod racing tho
So ye, you take 1h of the first movie to shit on everything else, then you wonder why people don't agree with u, big surprise
Theres a scene in the 4th i believe where they explain that a ton of planets got destroyed during the clone wars
Trade federation was under the control of Palpatine
The prequels had a frame since it was about the rise of anakin and his fall
While i agree that the reason of the trade wars arent explained, i'm fairly sure you'd be shitting on the political aspect of it if they spent any amount of time explaining it.
I guess most people defending the prequels are just tired of people shitting on it thanks to a youtube video

The first hour of the film is pretty illustrative of the Prequels problems though, the pacing is really messy.

Phantom Menace takes forever to get going, conversely there isn’t enough stuff fleshing out the central frame as you like to call it, or doing it badly. If they gave more time to Anakin and Obi-Wan together, likewise Padme and do it better then his fall is more believably tragic. Clone Wars did a way, way better job there.

What does Palpatine have to offer the Trade Federation anyway? Given that nobody appears to know who he actually is, what cards is he playing with here?

Fair play to Lucas for doing something other than good guys have to stop the bad guys and their planet destroying machine, just a pity the films weren’t better. There was plenty of potential squandered because nobody reined him in.

Do we get the brash, headstrong, arrogant Jedi doomed to fall to the dark side to leap out of a window into space traffic, or jump into a room of battle droids saying ‘hello there’ or do we get the Jedi who’s supposed to be the wise and reserved one to do it?

I’m sure plenty are regurgitating stuff from certain videos now. When I first watched the original RLM it was in the early years of YouTube and it was more cathartic retreading of something I hadn’t lived up to my young hype when I saw it in the cinema and hadn’t quite put my finger on why.

I mean like the Prequels by all means of course, just I think they are deeply flawed. Seeing an increasing amount of defence that seems very hipster like (not here just in general), where people criticise the new trilogy for the exact same things the Prequels do which they say are good (Mary Sue characters, out of tone bad attempts at humour etc).

That or people who really like the EU tend to defend the Prequels a lot more, perhaps some of the plot holes and weird logic are filled in more if you’ve more exposure to that.




I definitely don't see how the prequels and sequels have the same problems.

In fact, I'd say their problems are quite different. I don't see a Mary Sue in the prequels that is anything close Rey, nor do I see any mind-numbing pacing problems in the sequels like you do with the political storylines in the prequels.

These are just two of many examples.
A sound mind in a sound body, is a short, but full description of a happy state in this World: he that has these two, has little more to wish for; and he that wants either of them, will be little the better for anything else.
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21678 Posts
December 25 2019 14:59 GMT
#199
The prequels didn't break the overarching world either. The story might not have been great, tho I think its not nearly as bad as some people hold to, but it fitted without the universe of the original trilogy without breaking things.

No superweapons shooting through hyperspace, no suicide hyperspace jumps that destroy mega ships. No force powers that break everything. (Well ok, not entirely true, there is 2 seconds of force speed in Phantom Menace)
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25307 Posts
December 25 2019 15:19 GMT
#200
On December 25 2019 23:23 Stratos_speAr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 25 2019 19:54 Wombat_NI wrote:
On December 25 2019 09:49 Erasme wrote:
On December 23 2019 15:24 Sermokala wrote:
Your post makes me think you didn't understand what was going on in the prequels. The people who were blockading the planet for some unspecified reason other then "Trade" are the same people who ignited the galaxy-spanning war spread out over thousands of planets with billions and billions dead. Why is everyone cool with going along with this massive war over a single planet thats bearly industrialized?

And again this war, the war at the core of the prequels, is never elaborated on or explained in any real way. The clone army (that was based on mandalorians who were what boba fet was based on, that turned into the stormtroopers) was straight up Hitler Jugend.

The two (really just the one because the final order fleet was made on the sith ice planet) massive fleet came from the fact that the empire was literally a galactic sprawling empire that didn't just poof out of existence after the death star blew up. those fleets had to go somewhere. SW was always like that. the first and third movies where basicaly the same but with different steps.

the prequels were total abominations. How much time did they spend with the pod racing scene that makes no sense (god solve the whole betting shenanigans they go through to reach "if we win we get the boy and the parts if we lose you get the rest of the ship") The sheer ammount of lazy "lets sit and talk" scenes that never approch any of the major themes like the actual war.

Jar Jar alone should be enough to explain to you why the prequels were so bad. I genuinely need like a few hours to find out why you think the prequels are good. You're lieing to yourself if you think the prequels had a frame with how wildly different the first and the next two were. A brand new stock villian with a lame gimmick lightsaber but at least he talks and has as nonexistent of a backstory.

On December 23 2019 09:57 Garbels wrote:
On December 23 2019 08:17 Sermokala wrote:
On December 23 2019 05:09 Garbels wrote:
Whats up with the ending?
It seems to me like the intended conclusion they want to give the audiene is that the good guys won while in reallity Palpatine got what he wanted, no?

He might not have died exactly like he ordered but I find it hart to believe that his 30 year masterplan war luring someone into his lair with no preparation and hope that they kill you in some speciffic way.

How did palpatine get what he wanted? his force lightning reflected back onto him and the sith temple was collapsed with his "last order" fleet being destroyed.


He wanted rey to kill him and she did.
He does not care about the rest.

Sure maybe he was banking an his followers to say 7 ave marias to complete the ritual.
Since they couldn't he is now dead.
Seems so silly but totally in line with the rest of the movie.

He wanted her to follow the ritual and "strike him down".

I'm not saying its not silly but you need to give it some wiggle room for it trying to create a finale out of the mess that TLJ was.

i cba to reply to everything so i'll just take your major points:
Jarjar is only seen in the first movie (except for one scene in the 2nd and one in the third) so taking him to say the rest is shit is definitly a bad argument
Dont understand why you would shit on the pod racing tho
So ye, you take 1h of the first movie to shit on everything else, then you wonder why people don't agree with u, big surprise
Theres a scene in the 4th i believe where they explain that a ton of planets got destroyed during the clone wars
Trade federation was under the control of Palpatine
The prequels had a frame since it was about the rise of anakin and his fall
While i agree that the reason of the trade wars arent explained, i'm fairly sure you'd be shitting on the political aspect of it if they spent any amount of time explaining it.
I guess most people defending the prequels are just tired of people shitting on it thanks to a youtube video

The first hour of the film is pretty illustrative of the Prequels problems though, the pacing is really messy.

Phantom Menace takes forever to get going, conversely there isn’t enough stuff fleshing out the central frame as you like to call it, or doing it badly. If they gave more time to Anakin and Obi-Wan together, likewise Padme and do it better then his fall is more believably tragic. Clone Wars did a way, way better job there.

What does Palpatine have to offer the Trade Federation anyway? Given that nobody appears to know who he actually is, what cards is he playing with here?

Fair play to Lucas for doing something other than good guys have to stop the bad guys and their planet destroying machine, just a pity the films weren’t better. There was plenty of potential squandered because nobody reined him in.

Do we get the brash, headstrong, arrogant Jedi doomed to fall to the dark side to leap out of a window into space traffic, or jump into a room of battle droids saying ‘hello there’ or do we get the Jedi who’s supposed to be the wise and reserved one to do it?

I’m sure plenty are regurgitating stuff from certain videos now. When I first watched the original RLM it was in the early years of YouTube and it was more cathartic retreading of something I hadn’t lived up to my young hype when I saw it in the cinema and hadn’t quite put my finger on why.

I mean like the Prequels by all means of course, just I think they are deeply flawed. Seeing an increasing amount of defence that seems very hipster like (not here just in general), where people criticise the new trilogy for the exact same things the Prequels do which they say are good (Mary Sue characters, out of tone bad attempts at humour etc).

That or people who really like the EU tend to defend the Prequels a lot more, perhaps some of the plot holes and weird logic are filled in more if you’ve more exposure to that.




I definitely don't see how the prequels and sequels have the same problems.

In fact, I'd say their problems are quite different. I don't see a Mary Sue in the prequels that is anything close Rey, nor do I see any mind-numbing pacing problems in the sequels like you do with the political storylines in the prequels.

These are just two of many examples.

In general I think they don’t tend to share the same core problems, agreed there.

Anakin gets his ass kicked throughout the trilogy for sure, and massacres innocents but within the Phantom Menace he has built a functioning protocol droid, destroyed a Droid Control Centre (my personal least favourite thing in all 9 films tbh), so adult Rey being a capable pilot isn’t too crazy, to take a common complaint.

I think one actually shared problem is the escalation of force users to being ridiculously overpowered,

There is basically no time outside of facing a Sith where a Jedi feels in any kind of peril to any other foe or environmental hazard, I’ve had people claim this is only a new problem with the new trilogy and the Prequels handled it better, which they absolutely did not.




'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
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