Sure, they're nitpicky, but superficial stuff isn't an invalid. Being annoyed by how people are portrayed because they're completely over the top silly as opposed to characters being portrayed seriously is such a shift in viewing experience it completely destroyed the pleasurable viewing experience.
Oh and you want tone / genre? I've already explained it, everything else was shit icing on the cake. Tone went from mystery thriller fantasy to silly fantasy sci fi family detective. It was not what I was looking for. The continuation of the same stuff would've been great, but that wasn't what we got. I was majorly annoyed and dissapointed by it.
And I literally didnt view any of the youtube stuff nor do I barely ever watch that shit. The only things I do watch are RLM because they do go in depth with tonality and themes and symbolism and pacing and all that stuff.
I don't want to go into detail here because it would be a waste of time, but a lot of these complaints are so superficial and nitpicky, disregarding the tone/genre this show is going for and searching for realism (?) instead. I blame bad faith youtube film/media criticism, people just cannot stop to do the same afterwards :/
Nobody is searching for pure realism. There was a goddamn living Demogorgon and psychic abilities in S1 and we all loved that shit. But there still needs to be some level of respect for the audience. It's hard to question the rules of the Upside Down and its monsters; it's not nearly as hard to question a massive secret Russian base under a small town's mall.
I think there's a pretty major disconnect in the conversation we're having here, though.
It's not that S1 didn't have its comic relief, 80s references, lack of realism, etc. It was just done in what seems to be a MUCH more deliberate and calculated way.
I said it before: it felt like S1's story was told by a wise, clever, experienced storyteller and S2/S3 were told by a child. A novice. It's essentially the same story, but it's told in a WILDLY different way.
That's why people are upset.
To bolster that point: think of the imagery in S1. The Eggos, El's nosebleeds, the scientists in white coats, the Christmas lights + alphabet on the wall, the Upside Down, Barb (remember how viral she went?). It produced some pretty memorable, often iconic stuff.
Take this scene for example:
It's slow. It has moments of dead silence. It wasn't in a hurry to get to the next subplot or joke. It builds suspense. And then it hits you with that big, cinematic synth-y music that defined the show.
Not saying S2/S3 didn't have their big moments, but they just didn't build tension the same way. They didn't paint the same picture. They didn't appeal to the senses. They didn't have the lasting imagery. They didn't let scenes, emotions marinate.
The stories don't feel like they were told by the same person. We liked that first person more.
I recall season 1 being super unrealistic and cartoony as well. Like Hopper doing James Bond shit or the kids not getting immediately killed by the Demogorgon or the Demogorgon absorbing damage with no affect like a bullet sponge. Even back then it pissed me off because the show was trying to go for a grounded "one step from reality" vibe. But now it's basically looney toons.
How great would it be if when they were sneaking into the Russian base the guards shot through the ducts and killed Lucas's sister and Dustin? Then when they tortured Steve they actually used the saw and tweezers and cut off some of his fingers. Or when Hopper and Joyce met the Terminator they actually got hit by his AK. Joyce dying would have been a great character moment for Jonathan who would have to step up and take care of his brother.
They have such a giant cast. Start killing them off already!
Not only was the story for children, so was everything regarding the acting. Why was nothing fleshed out. Why was nothing was character driven? How is Joyce, who did MAJOR detective work and has shown to be NOT crazy on several occasions still questioned by Hopper, who was majorly involved in both mysteries? Why does he need to be dragged around like a child? Someone's who's been a badass and intelligent (and more often than not balanced) individual for 16 episodes now has the mental fortitude of a 14 year old. Why? Why do they need to quibble again? Don't they understand the potentially dangerous world ending situations that happen around these areas by now? I could dissect every character like this. I could dissect everyone, they've just lost every nuance.
On July 26 2019 05:02 Faruko wrote: Most of the people hating the stuff on season 3 should have hated it on season 1, it's pretty impressive lol
It feels like if some people are hating now because it went mainstream and it's actually good.
You can't say acting is bad in this season but not in season 1, seriously, that's like nostalgia googles at its finest
The show was literally mainstream from the first episode onwards. I think even before that.
And I'm pretty sure the characters are portrayed way differently then they were in the first season. I want to be wrong though, so I'll rewatch S1 soon just so I can compare that stuff. However, if the acting is actually the same, or the characters as superficial, I'd like to know/understand why, because I won't be able to figure it out for myself. I really want to enjoy this, because thematically it should/is up my wheelhouse, but this season did nothing but piss me off..
On July 26 2019 03:43 Hyperbola wrote: I recall season 1 being super unrealistic and cartoony as well. Like Hopper doing James Bond shit or the kids not getting immediately killed by the Demogorgon or the Demogorgon absorbing damage with no affect like a bullet sponge. Even back then it pissed me off because the show was trying to go for a grounded "one step from reality" vibe. But now it's basically looney toons.
How great would it be if when they were sneaking into the Russian base the guards shot through the ducts and killed Lucas's sister and Dustin? Then when they tortured Steve they actually used the saw and tweezers and cut off some of his fingers. Or when Hopper and Joyce met the Terminator they actually got hit by his AK. Joyce dying would have been a great character moment for Jonathan who would have to step up and take care of his brother.
They have such a giant cast. Start killing them off already!
On July 26 2019 03:43 Hyperbola wrote: I recall season 1 being super unrealistic and cartoony as well. Like Hopper doing James Bond shit or the kids not getting immediately killed by the Demogorgon or the Demogorgon absorbing damage with no affect like a bullet sponge. Even back then it pissed me off because the show was trying to go for a grounded "one step from reality" vibe. But now it's basically looney toons.
How great would it be if when they were sneaking into the Russian base the guards shot through the ducts and killed Lucas's sister and Dustin? Then when they tortured Steve they actually used the saw and tweezers and cut off some of his fingers. Or when Hopper and Joyce met the Terminator they actually got hit by his AK. Joyce dying would have been a great character moment for Jonathan who would have to step up and take care of his brother.
They have such a giant cast. Start killing them off already!
i really loved the mall episode and how it all ended up there again. Steve being a highlight once again was nice, but it’s becoming too predictable. i don’t know how many times we can just fight upsidedown monsters either.
overall i thought it was a little above average but i’m not hyped for s4 (if there is one) tbh.
max and lucas singing was also one of my favorite parts, the ending was fairly well done. a very appropriate sort of closure.
On July 26 2019 03:43 Hyperbola wrote: I recall season 1 being super unrealistic and cartoony as well. Like Hopper doing James Bond shit or the kids not getting immediately killed by the Demogorgon or the Demogorgon absorbing damage with no affect like a bullet sponge. Even back then it pissed me off because the show was trying to go for a grounded "one step from reality" vibe. But now it's basically looney toons.
How great would it be if when they were sneaking into the Russian base the guards shot through the ducts and killed Lucas's sister and Dustin? Then when they tortured Steve they actually used the saw and tweezers and cut off some of his fingers. Or when Hopper and Joyce met the Terminator they actually got hit by his AK. Joyce dying would have been a great character moment for Jonathan who would have to step up and take care of his brother.
They have such a giant cast. Start killing them off already!
Uhhh did you finish the season?
I did. Killing off a couple side characters aint gonna do much if they keep introducing new ones. Also, Hopper obviously isn't dead.
On July 25 2019 23:56 Uldridge wrote: Sure, they're nitpicky, but superficial stuff isn't an invalid. Being annoyed by how people are portrayed because they're completely over the top silly as opposed to characters being portrayed seriously is such a shift in viewing experience it completely destroyed the pleasurable viewing experience.
Oh and you want tone / genre? I've already explained it, everything else was shit icing on the cake. Tone went from mystery thriller fantasy to silly fantasy sci fi family detective. It was not what I was looking for. The continuation of the same stuff would've been great, but that wasn't what we got. I was majorly annoyed and dissapointed by it.
And I literally didnt view any of the youtube stuff nor do I barely ever watch that shit. The only things I do watch are RLM because they do go in depth with tonality and themes and symbolism and pacing and all that stuff.
It might not be totally invalid, but "criticism" goes more and more into the direction of nitpicks, trying to find things which don't make 100% logical sense instead of trying to see the big picture. Now i'll grant that it can be too contrived (people usually shout "plotholes" when that's not the case), it is somewhat subjective, but it also depends largely on what genres and mood the work portrays in the first place. I'll be a lot harsher with a series which tries to be realistic, some serious drama. ST isn't that.
The first season already has very similar tropes, where kids outsmart everyone around them, it's super easy to get into a secret base, etc. Maybe it's a little more exaggerated now, but season 1 isn't something completely different.
Well your criticism just reminded me of the very popular youtube film criticism these days, which is heavily focused on nitpicks and finding holes (any story has these! even the ones you'd think are excellent). Audiences seem to like that kind of stuff (it can be entertaining, not gonna deny that), but ultimately it's lazy for the most part.
I don't want to go into detail here because it would be a waste of time, but a lot of these complaints are so superficial and nitpicky, disregarding the tone/genre this show is going for and searching for realism (?) instead. I blame bad faith youtube film/media criticism, people just cannot stop to do the same afterwards :/
Nobody is searching for pure realism. There was a goddamn living Demogorgon and psychic abilities in S1 and we all loved that shit. But there still needs to be some level of respect for the audience. It's hard to question the rules of the Upside Down and its monsters; it's not nearly as hard to question a massive secret Russian base under a small town's mall.
I think there's a pretty major disconnect in the conversation we're having here, though.
It's not that S1 didn't have its comic relief, 80s references, lack of realism, etc. It was just done in what seems to be a MUCH more deliberate and calculated way.
I said it before: it felt like S1's story was told by a wise, clever, experienced storyteller and S2/S3 were told by a child. A novice. It's essentially the same story, but it's told in a WILDLY different way.
That's why people are upset.
To bolster that point: think of the imagery in S1. The Eggos, El's nosebleeds, the scientists in white coats, the Christmas lights + alphabet on the wall, the Upside Down, Barb (remember how viral she went?). It produced some pretty memorable, often iconic stuff.
It's slow. It has moments of dead silence. It wasn't in a hurry to get to the next subplot or joke. It builds suspense. And then it hits you with that big, cinematic synth-y music that defined the show.
Not saying S2/S3 didn't have their big moments, but they just didn't build tension the same way. They didn't paint the same picture. They didn't appeal to the senses. They didn't have the lasting imagery. They didn't let scenes, emotions marinate.
The stories don't feel like they were told by the same person. We liked that first person more.
It looks like people are searching for realism when i read the complaints, maybe you should read the complaints as well and then decide if truly "nobody" does it? They might respect the audience too much actually, it's very clear what they are trying to do with the russians, considering in what time period the series plays in. It is supposed to be comical, all of it. How they get into the base is the most absurd part, but that's exactly what this storylines wants to be.
So yeah overall i highly disagree with everything you say, it's hard to argue against it though because it comes down to "season 1 did something the others didn't" , i might even agree with season 2 being weaker, but season 3 has some highly memorable scenes in it. Them singing at the end (which you probably dislike because it isn't realistic!) might become the most iconic part yet. Obviously there are parts which could be more focused, a little more effective, but saying season 1 was written by a experienced storyteller while s3 was written by a child, yeah no that's complete nonsense. This isn't a GoT season 8 vs earlier seasons comparison, not even close.
On July 26 2019 23:54 The_Red_Viper wrote: It is supposed to be comical, all of it. How they get into the base is the most absurd part, but that's exactly what this storylines wants to be.
Them singing at the end (which you probably dislike because it isn't realistic!) might become the most iconic part yet.
I guess we have very different experiences with the show then. S1 and most of S2 was character focused and suspenseful for me. S3 had nothing of this, which was what made is so unappealing. I found the last episode borderline insulting. The singing, the infiltration and the ease of it all. Again, S1 had elaborate (albeit ineffective) government or - whatever secret organization - henchmen. They felt scary, they felt like an actual threat. At no point did I feel like either the Russians, Billy and by expansion the Mind Flayer, or The Terminator were on a similar level. I actually liked the fact that El lost her power, but she did so way too late. For instance, the scene in the cabin could've been way more impactful if she lost her powers beforehand, the Mind Flayer shows up, she appallingly realizes she lost her powers (because of overuse or whatever, because, let's face it, she's been using it a whole lot, or you know, how the mind flayer literally was able to trojan horse her ass when she was snooping around Billy's memories) and then someone (let's say Mike) gets snatched away. But the cabin scene was just another scene where no one does anything and El suddenly decides she has enough and rips the monster in half (why not do it immediately?)
The only scene that I found actually suspenseful was in the hospital. But even that left a bad taste because the fucking receptionist didn't notice the lights going on and off, or the fact that there was literally no animosity in a hospital. Again, insulting.
I can let go that you and many others found it great and even found the duet scene iconic, but for me it was completely the opposite. I have yet to understand why it's iconic and would definitely love to see a reason why people find it iconic or amazing, just so I can at least see where people are coming from.
I was going to try to make a point on how the suspension of disbelief was way more convincing in S1 because of how the character dealt with the situations and how everything played out, but I'm not well versed enough in the lingo of storytelling / character development / themes and shit to actually make that point. I'll think about it some more and see if I can come up with something that will help you understand on why I feel this way. I'm actually looking forward to rewatching S1 to see if my viewing experience will be the same or not.
On July 26 2019 23:54 The_Red_Viper wrote: It looks like people are searching for realism when i read the complaints, maybe you should read the complaints as well and then decide if truly "nobody" does it?
I should probably use the spoiler tag more, so let's just do the whole damn thing:
I've mostly just seen people specifically complaining about the Russian base concept being too wacky. I don't think pure realism is what anyone wanted; not a single person here has complained about the existence of a Mindflayer, for example. I think they're just asking for a return of the very real, very plausible backstories that made the plot so damn compelling (e.g. the U.S. government running experiments on its own people, because that actually happened).
I'll echo Uldridge's sentiment that I might be misremembering details from S1 and should rewatch it as well, but as a sidenote to reinforce previous points: I DO remember how difficult it was in S1 for Joyce and the gang to figure out A) where Will went and B) how the hell they're supposed to communicate with him. It was a long, arduous process. And it was really powerful when it was finally figured out. Because that's how tension and resolution work! Yay storywriting!
But in S2 they solved the mystery of Will's visions of the Mindflayer nearly instantaneously (Joyce quickly realized he should draw what he saw and Bob conveniently knew it was a map, etc), just like the kids cracking the secret Russian code without speaking a lick of Russian and quickly infiltrating an underground, well-armed base in S3. Problems were presented and instantly solved BEFORE the journey even began. It's such a shallow and lazy way to write a story IMO.
And I'm ranting about all of this now because it wasn't always like that. If that's how S1 went, I wouldn't even be here right now.
Also, holy shit please don't put words in my mouth. The lack of realism isn't the problem I had with the singing scene; it was just a really tacky joke that made me cringe in the middle of the ultimate climax of a very intense moment.
Even if I DID think it was funny, laughing during a climax is generally not a good thing for anyone involved.
(There's also the super meta realization that Billy and Hopper probably would have survived if they didn't waste several minutes singing, which is more of a funny thought than a critical gripe.)
EPT
