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On August 08 2014 13:02 maggle wrote:
LOL - another ridiculous argument brought forth by Forikorder. Christ dude, you're trying to argue that the word 'control' in that panel means 'awaken'. It's pretty obvious that you put forward a theory that was fundamentally flawed and someone used the manga as evidence to refute your theory. Instead of graciously accepting that you are sometimes wrong, you instead try to defend your now debunked theory by re-defining the English language.
im perfectly capable of controlling a car
does not at all mean im currently driving one
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I don't know why he refuses to accept that maybe Kishimoto messed up somewhere. Credit where it's due, this series has gone on a long time and it's done pretty well, but now it's starting to unravel a bit. I still maintain that Kakashi could have saved Sakura with Kamui instead, would have been more in line with what I would accept.
edit: Besides, read it again, it says "control", not "can control", present tense dude lol
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It's related to the eyes (plural). It needs both, clean and simple and I think we were all aware of that deep inside but just let it slide.
Stop making a big deal out of it Forik. It's not healthy.
Kishi dun goofed but that's okay. I just hope the ending isn't locking Kaguya in an infinite loop until she chooses to change her ways. That would be a sad way of closing the "war".
Kakashi has had a mangekyo (only 1) since he killed one of his best friends (RIn) but only used it on the latter half of the manga through Kamui and slowly grew to control it better. But he was never able to release/unlock Susanoo with just that 1 eye. Now we has 2, he suddenly can. That is fact of the manga now. End of story.
The only people we currently know who have used Susanoo with less than 2 mangekyou is Sasuke and Madara which seems to be a mistake but no use taking it back since it's out there. Once the sharingan evolves into a Rinnegan or whatever higher version of Rinnengan, it is no longer a Sharingan. If the Rinnegan even retains the Sharingan abilities, then Obito should not have needed to retain his sharingan to teleport. It would have been a pointless exercise then and there.
I think that is safe to state as fact of the manga.
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Guys chill out.
The whole matter is really bad explained in the manga, and I am sure the manga contradicts itself multiple times in this matter.
For example that Kakashi is supposed to have below average chakra reserves. And MS techniques are supposed to require a lot of chakra.
At the start of the war he could use kamui like 3 times before his chakra was exhausted. He then got refilled by Naruto and exhausted his chakra like 2 more times.
Then he had enough energy left to sprint in a high gravity dimension in which Kaguya, Sasuke and Naruto couldn't move.
And now he just instantly activated Susanoo.
Kakashi must be powered by our disappointment. Every time we lose faith in Kishimoto, Kakashi suddenly has full energy again.
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nowhere is it explicitaly stated that in order to use Susano'o both eyes are neccesary, Kishi obviously never felt that eyes were neccesary either the only neccesity is to have gotten mangekyo NOT to have mangekyo
people jsut assumed that susano'o required both eyes, twisted phrases to meet that assumption then got angry that kishi never meant for susano'o to require eyes
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On August 08 2014 13:28 Forikorder wrote:
nowhere is it explicitaly stated that in order to use Susano'o both eyes are neccesary, Kishi obviously never felt that eyes were neccesary either the only neccesity is to have gotten mangekyo NOT to have mangekyo
people jsut assumed that susano'o required both eyes, twisted phrases to meet that assumption then got angry that kishi never meant for susano'o to require eyes
I'm sure Kishimoto-san appreciates you speaking on his behalf.
On August 08 2014 13:24 Mataza wrote:
Kakashi must be powered by our disappointment. Every time we lose faith in Kishimoto, Kakashi suddenly has full energy again.
I'm sorry, but LOL
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On August 08 2014 13:28 Forikorder wrote:
nowhere is it explicitaly stated that in order to use Susano'o both eyes are neccesary, Kishi obviously never felt that eyes were neccesary either the only neccesity is to have gotten mangekyo NOT to have mangekyo
people jsut assumed that susano'o required both eyes, twisted phrases to meet that assumption then got angry that kishi never meant for susano'o to require eyes
If the eyes or at least an eye remaining after awakening and able to release Susanoo is not a requirement, why even need it to begin with?
It currently does not appear to be a blood line limit, because clearly Kakashi has already used it. His blood is not an Uchiha blood line, so cross that out. And believe the eyes somehow mutated his blood would just be too much.
But it is clearly an eye ability. That is clear. Because without the eye, you should not be able to use it.
So the only problem with users of Susanoo is the scene where Madara used it without any sharingan at all.
That seems to be the only problem.
I just wonder whether why Kishi didn't just let Madara use his Hashirama regen cells to get his eyes to naturally re-grow to make that scene stick with his set lore, even with just one eye and could have just unplug it after gaining both rinnegans
It' could have been that simple.
Unlock it with two mangekyou, after unlock, just have at least 1 mangekyou on your person (even in your hands) and be able to use Susanoo. =)
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If the eyes or at least an eye remaining after awakening and able to release Susanoo is not a requirement, why even need it to begin with?
the eyes are not the source of there pwer just a reflection of it, the eyes have power in themselves but the main power is in the body not the eyes
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On August 08 2014 14:19 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +If the eyes or at least an eye remaining after awakening and able to release Susanoo is not a requirement, why even need it to begin with? the eyes are not the source of there pwer just a reflection of it, the eyes have power in themselves but the main power is in the body not the eyes
Forik, simple. Support your claim with proof from manga, not blurting out with nothing to back it up with.
And seriously, a reflection of the power? I'm sorry. I maybe to simply to understand it but that did not make any sense to me.
And the "main power is in the body not the eyes" then you are saying it is a blood line limit which kakashi disproves because he is not an Uchiha by any stretch of the imagination. That's in the manga, where is your source then?
I am willing to stand down if you can show proof. And would be happy if you can enlighten with proof coming from the author. But until you do so, I don't think there is any merit in believing what you are saying about this.
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Forik, simple. Support your claim with proof from manga, not blurting out with nothing to back it up with.
okay http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/658/12
eyeless Madara summoning Susano'o
And seriously, a reflection of the power? I'm sorry. I maybe to simply to understand it but that did not make any sense to me.
the sharingan evolves as there chakra evolves so the eyes reflect how much power they have
And the "main power is in the body not the eyes" then you are saying it is a blood line limit which kakashi disproves because he is not an Uchiha by any stretch of the imagination. That's in the manga, where is your source then?
http://www.mangareader.net/93-108-16/naruto/chapter-103.html
as you can clearly see Narutois chakra comes from his belly and then spreads to the rest of his body, so unless your saying that Uchihas are different there chakra takes the SAME route
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taht only demonstrates that the eyes are not the source of there power
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Trying to argue with Forik is like trying to convince water it's actually wet (which it of course denies endlessly).
On August 08 2014 15:05 Forikorder wrote:taht only demonstrates that the eyes are not the source of there power
No, it's just the part manifesting the power. The catalyst is loss of love, and the cause is chakra in the brain.
Stop being silly and just admit that you can't have it without possessing the eyes.
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On August 08 2014 15:50 sumsaR wrote:
Trying to argue with Forik is like trying to convince water it's actually wet (which it of course denies endlessly).
i have links to 3 different parts of the manga that clearly show that Uchiha do not get there chakra from there eyes and im the one refusing to admit im wrong?
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I don't think that is narutos chakra spreading out from his belly. That is the 9tailed fox's chakra, the seal is on his belly. Also I think chakra just comes from all the chakra points that a person has, just like in yoga.
Also I would like to say that I think that evidence points towards susanoo NOT requiring eyes. Actually I completely agree with the stuff this forik guy has been saying. The eyes are a reflection of the chakra that is being gathered in the brain and are not necessarily necessary for all the powers.
Just my 2 cents. I think it's up to imagination to fill in the holes for ourselves. So it's kind of an opinion when it hasn't been concretely shown or there is conflicting evidence.
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TLADT24920 Posts
On August 08 2014 15:56 travis wrote:
I don't think that is narutos chakra spreading out from his belly. That is the 9tailed fox's chakra, the seal is on his belly. Also I think chakra just comes from all the chakra points that a person has, just like in yoga.
Also I would like to say that I think that evidence points towards susanoo NOT requiring eyes. Actually I completely agree with the stuff this forik guy has been saying. The eyes are a reflection of the chakra that is being gathered in the brain and are not necessarily necessary for all the powers.
Just my 2 cents. I think it's up to imagination to fill in the holes for ourselves. So it's kind of an opinion when it hasn't been concretely shown or there is conflicting evidence.
out of curiosity, might mentioning what the evidence is? I'm sure Madara will be used as an example but I believe many people including myself believe that was a mistake on Kishi's part when he wrote it. The proof that Kakashi can use Susanoo now and not before with one mangekyo (or even without it after he lost it) can be used to support the notion that the eyes play a big role.
Sphinx pretty much explained what I had in mind. Anyways, I had a talk with a friend about this and we kinda agreed that Kishi didn't really explain things well enough about the mangekyo. As a final note, Obito and Shisui had different eye powers and neither seems to have awoken Susanoo though Obito only ever had one mangekyo so he technically couldn't and Shisui wasn't spoken much off aside from the small bits we got.
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The problem with the theory is Kakashi, who never had the chakra or bloodline needed for it. The idea that the eye somehow spreads its chakra into him is also wrong, because then by extension Nagato would have been able to use six paths chakra, and all the different styles that came with it. Nothing suggests it. The other angle is that the powers are in fact connected to the eyes, but of course there's going to be something to contradict this. Poor planning of the narrative has made it so that any point of view in this regard is not 100% supported.
That said, things like Susano'o being tethered to the eyes makes the most sense and is the most convincing, especially given what just happened with Kakashi. The incident with Madara is the only thing that contradicts it, using it as proof of the opposite point of view doesn't convince me.
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that was a mistake on Kishi's part when he wrote it
There was a point in time in this thread ( or the OP one, same thing ) where people would make fun of Forikorder for thinking the author was wrong.
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On August 08 2014 14:19 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +If the eyes or at least an eye remaining after awakening and able to release Susanoo is not a requirement, why even need it to begin with? the eyes are not the source of there pwer just a reflection of it, the eyes have power in themselves but the main power is in the body not the eyes
What about the Shisui's eye that Itachi implanted in a crow? It's not about Susanoo, but the eye worked almost on its own.
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On August 08 2014 15:53 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2014 15:50 sumsaR wrote:
Trying to argue with Forik is like trying to convince water it's actually wet (which it of course denies endlessly). i have links to 3 different parts of the manga that clearly show that Uchiha do not get there chakra from there eyes and im the one refusing to admit im wrong?
Nice strawman. Who exactly has said chakra comes from the eyes?
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EPT
