Of course, again, you have every right to be happy with a completely generic but visually well-done Robots vs Monsters movies. To say that Pacific Rim was "supposed to be" like that because it's a Robot vs Monsters movie, however, is completely wrong. Matrix could have been a stupid movie entirely centered around humans fighting computer programs through martial arts. The original Star Wars trilogy could have been stupid movies entirely centered around the Rebels fighting the Empire through ground and space combat. The Lord of the Rings could have been stupid movies entirely centered around big armies destroying each other. Did these movies still feature the aforementioned fights and battles? Of course they did - and they did so brilliantly, stunning audiences with their visuals. But they were so much more than that, because the directors actually had ambitious visions for their movies and believed that they could make great movies without sacrificing anything with regards to the entertaining battles they would feature. The rest of the movie would not be sorry excuses to bring about the fighting - the fighting would be an integral part of something bigger.
@ kwizach - I think you might be getting a little ahead of yourself when you label works like Star Wars and Lord of the Rings as masterpieces as compared to Pacific Rim. Of course we can agree those are great movies but you have to admit even they have their share of 'stupid' plot elements, as well as less-than-perfect characterization and writing in some areas. Case in point: + Show Spoiler +
11 lord of the rings moments: 11. The orcs are firing at them, there are other orcs working their way around the bridge to surround them ("By nightfall these hills will be swarming with orcs") 10. I honestly didn't think any of those "endings" were endings so I never understood this complaint. Besides he says it himself: wrapping up a 7+ hour story... can't do that in one scene. 9. Gimli's stupid moments... it's a kids movie. Injecting a little bit of lighthearted moments didn't really bother me. 8. Legolas is an elf. Anyone whose read the books (or payed attention in the movie) will know that "He's an elf" is enough said. 7. Close-up face shots... who cares? And I like how he missed that we're supposed to be uncomfortable when Bilbo is "just talking". It's our first glimpse of the corruption that the ring has on people. 6. Denethor: he is supposed to be an asshole... he used to be a good man, but he is corrupted. 5. Yeah... this one is just stupid. 4. She's an elf. Once again, if you payed attention you would understand all of this. 3. It's kind of annoying that any affection between two men is called "gay". That's a really fucking childish way of looking at things that a lot of people in modern times (bromance, man-dates) have picked up. 2. This one was kind of legitimate, but the movie was already 3 1/2 hours long. They had to cut stuff out. 1. This one is the most fucking retarded thing I have ever read and it's so pervasive. The Nazgul would kill the Eagles and then Sauron would have the ring. Yeah, that sounds like a fucking awesome idea. This being on this guy's list (I knew this guy would bring this up) invalidates any criticism he could possibly give. He doesn't know how to watch/analyze stories.
There are a lot of legitimate criticisms of Lord of the Rings, but overall, they are very minor. The movies still remain the most ambitious movie project of all time and still are classics of film-making. And the Star Wars one is a joke. I like those too, and it's funny, but actually, if you pay attention (armchair critics NEVER pay attention) then you'll see why it doesn't make sense.
On July 22 2013 22:31 Nick! wrote: So on a good note, Pacific Rim has grossed $178 million so far because of it doing awesome overseas, and it hasn't even been released in China and Japan yet. It's gonna make it's money back and then some.
Good to hear, that movie needs a second round of awesome. I demand more nationist robots. Give me my British Boxing robot!
No doubt it will need an extra reactor for the tea >.>
Really, the closer the robots get to Street Fighter, the better off we all are. Viking-Sweedish Robot. German-Knight based Robot. French Fencing robot. Its only a question of how dumb they want to go, and I want 1000% more dumb in the next movie.
So a ginger haired Scottish Jaeger with a defensive titanium kilt lining to defend the whisky powered reactors
That might be a bit much, but the ideas are there. The Russian robot looked like a power plant grew legs and decided to defend the mother land by punching things with hydrolic fists. More of that kind of stuff can't hurt the movie and can only increase the fun value. I would also like more creative mosters for them to fight, but the robots are the star of the show.
On July 22 2013 22:31 Nick! wrote: So on a good note, Pacific Rim has grossed $178 million so far because of it doing awesome overseas, and it hasn't even been released in China and Japan yet. It's gonna make it's money back and then some.
Good to hear, that movie needs a second round of awesome. I demand more nationist robots. Give me my British Boxing robot!
No doubt it will need an extra reactor for the tea >.>
Really, the closer the robots get to Street Fighter, the better off we all are. Viking-Sweedish Robot. German-Knight based Robot. French Fencing robot. Its only a question of how dumb they want to go, and I want 1000% more dumb in the next movie.
So a ginger haired Scottish Jaeger with a defensive titanium kilt lining to defend the whisky powered reactors
That might be a bit much, but the ideas are there. The Russian robot looked like a power plant grew legs and decided to defend the mother land by punching things with hydrolic fists. More of that kind of stuff can't hurt the movie and can only increase the fun value. I would also like more creative mosters for them to fight, but the robots are the star of the show.
On July 22 2013 22:31 Nick! wrote: So on a good note, Pacific Rim has grossed $178 million so far because of it doing awesome overseas, and it hasn't even been released in China and Japan yet. It's gonna make it's money back and then some.
Good to hear, that movie needs a second round of awesome. I demand more nationist robots. Give me my British Boxing robot!
No doubt it will need an extra reactor for the tea >.>
Really, the closer the robots get to Street Fighter, the better off we all are. Viking-Sweedish Robot. German-Knight based Robot. French Fencing robot. Its only a question of how dumb they want to go, and I want 1000% more dumb in the next movie.
So a ginger haired Scottish Jaeger with a defensive titanium kilt lining to defend the whisky powered reactors
That might be a bit much, but the ideas are there. The Russian robot looked like a power plant grew legs and decided to defend the mother land by punching things with hydrolic fists. More of that kind of stuff can't hurt the movie and can only increase the fun value. I would also like more creative mosters for them to fight, but the robots are the star of the show.
Ever watch G-Gundam? make Jaegers like those
Exactly, maybe with less hand held weapons, but along those lines. I mean, I don't need a robot that transforms into a viking long-boat, but one with an "ax-hand" and round shield would do just fine.
On July 22 2013 22:31 Nick! wrote: So on a good note, Pacific Rim has grossed $178 million so far because of it doing awesome overseas, and it hasn't even been released in China and Japan yet. It's gonna make it's money back and then some.
Good to hear, that movie needs a second round of awesome. I demand more nationist robots. Give me my British Boxing robot!
No doubt it will need an extra reactor for the tea >.>
Really, the closer the robots get to Street Fighter, the better off we all are. Viking-Sweedish Robot. German-Knight based Robot. French Fencing robot. Its only a question of how dumb they want to go, and I want 1000% more dumb in the next movie.
So a ginger haired Scottish Jaeger with a defensive titanium kilt lining to defend the whisky powered reactors
That might be a bit much, but the ideas are there. The Russian robot looked like a power plant grew legs and decided to defend the mother land by punching things with hydrolic fists. More of that kind of stuff can't hurt the movie and can only increase the fun value. I would also like more creative mosters for them to fight, but the robots are the star of the show.
Ever watch G-Gundam? make Jaegers like those
Stahp, you are giving Sent wet dream about Nobel Gundam again...
I have the ultimate proof that this movie is actually good. I managed to drag my gf (who isn't into mecha or monsters or anything of the sort) to see it with me TWICE.
On July 22 2013 11:26 kwizach wrote: [quote] I edited the conclusion to include something I mentioned earlier in the post, which is that it didn't need to take itself seriously to be way better than it was when it comes to the non-fighting scenes
Yes, but there is also no reason to obey logic or physics too.
There is. See the first part of my original post.
On July 22 2013 12:00 Plansix wrote: People freaking out about the Wall is just silly. The portal at the bottom of the ocean and giant monsters is way sillier than dumb choices by the military.
Again, see the first part of my original post.
On July 22 2013 12:00 Plansix wrote: As I said before, dumb ideas are part of war and people have them all the time. The french built this wall to keep the Germans out. The Germans drove around it.
Come on, you can't be serious with that comparison. The Maginot line could actually have been fully completed, didn't require way more resources than another way of shutting down the Germans, and would actually have made it way harder for the Germans to go through had it been completed where they attacked. It's too easy to call them both "bad ideas" without actually looking a little further and noticing that the PR wall is a way, way more stupid idea - and the decision to build it is taken by the entirety of humanity together in a life-or-death situation (with the experience of the Maginot line, I might add). In the movie, there is also a direct demonstration that it doesn't work when a kaiju goes through the Australian wall, yet the humans still proceed with their plans. If the Germans had happily rolled into France with a few tanks through Belgium before attacking with the rest of their army, you can bet that the French would have fortified the border with Belgian better and not simply kept their faith in the Maginot line.
I think comparing the magnitude of stupid in a general idea is a fool errand. Yes the wall was a bad idea, but they had no good ideas left. That is what happens when you are losing, you have no good options.
I'm pretty sure I explained well enough why your comparison was off the mark. They had better options left than an idea that could not possibly work and was actually empirically proven not to work.
Yeah, well they had two options that that seemed to be failing. One that was failing and the other that had failed. No option was winning. They said, "We can't build the jaegers fast enough in the opening of the movie". They were losing.
Even if you only take into account the jaeger program vs the wall, one of these two options had so far resulted in the death of every single kaiju since its launch, while the other one had proven to be a failure after the first kaiju attack against it. I genuinely don't understand why you're so bent on defending a plot point that is so stupid it hurts, something you even admitted yourself earlier on in the thread.
Its all stupid, that is for sure. I totally agree in that line. I just don't think it hurt the movie in any way. The wall is dumb, but it was on a long list of dumb plans. The wall was a product of them losing. If look at the movie, they had 4 robots left. They lost two of them in a single fight and the two remaining robots also get destroyed. Nothing was going to work except for the crazy plan at the end of the movie.
That's the point - there was no need for the wall as a plot element. There was enough pressure on the jaeger program as it was, and there would have been other ways to put addition pressure on the program and increase the necessity to find a solution fast than including such a stupid plot point. I expand on this in my original post on the previous page: see here.
They needed a plot point to pull all the jaegers to one spot, because there is little reason to do so, since they defending the coast line. Cutting the funding is easy enough, since it adds a sense of urgency to the plot, but the reason for the funding cut is not on screen.
[ First, we could very well have had a Pacific Rim movie in which there were still plenty of jaeger left, even fifty, but in which the next wave was going to consist in 40 kaijus coming out, and the next wave after that 80, meaning the protagonists still had to find a solution immediately. This would have resulted in an "expedition team" of four jaegers together having to execute Elba's plan while the other jaegers were defending the various cities vs the 40 kaijus. Second, even if you want to keep the jaeger number low, the plot point to put of all the jaegers together could simply have been that they were planning on executing the plan Elba came up with in the movie, and felt that since it was their only hope they needed to go for it with all remaining jaegers. No need for a wall program to exist for this to be the case.
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Well, if you did it this way like you are suggesting now, you would then have complaints of Jaegers that now need to be really shown in the movie with a bunch of Kaijus fighting off-screen. Which would be the more epic fight but you would need to focus on the 4 Jaeger team only. So again, you'd have a "that just plain sucks scenario. I want to see robots v monsters duking it out not some lame plan to close the portal".
Plus, that would affect movie's budget I feel. I mean, just think about the effort put in to make Coyote Tango completely designed a realized only to be seen in parts of as a shadow under just a minute. I mean really?
I was merely pointing out that there were plenty of ways to put pressure upon the jaeger program (and mankind itself). Nevertheless, you could easily show quick cuts of battle reports from various cities around the world while still keeping the original action to satisfy the viewers (we still get a huge city fight and then an underwater fight).
On July 22 2013 13:50 17Sphynx17 wrote: I understand the plain irrationality of the wall plan. I was expecting that instead of a wall plan, it would at least be a "new weapon plan". Maybe the world would be creating a satelite ion cannon that can shoot a beam down and "trace" a Kaiju and keep up with it to disintegrate it. That would be a logical reason to divert the funds.
Agreed, that would be another way of doing it, as long as there's a good reason why it's ultimately unsuccessful, meaning the jaeger program still has to save the day.
On July 22 2013 13:50 17Sphynx17 wrote: Or maybe members of the Pan Pacific Defense actually disagree how to proceed and break apart and some opt for a wall (not all), some opt to build giant land based guns, which would give reason as to why the money and resources to build Jaegers would be siphoned off.
Yep :-)
On July 22 2013 13:50 17Sphynx17 wrote: That would make sense at least, instead of adding a huge wave of monsters against a huge wave of Jaegers. That destroys the universe of how the "portal" even works.
Well we're shown that the number of kaijus sent concurrently is beginning to increase, so there's no reason to believe it couldn't ultimately have increased to huge groups.
Of course, again, you have every right to be happy with a completely generic but visually well-done Robots vs Monsters movies. To say that Pacific Rim was "supposed to be" like that because it's a Robot vs Monsters movie, however, is completely wrong. Matrix could have been a stupid movie entirely centered around humans fighting computer programs through martial arts. The original Star Wars trilogy could have been stupid movies entirely centered around the Rebels fighting the Empire through ground and space combat. The Lord of the Rings could have been stupid movies entirely centered around big armies destroying each other. Did these movies still feature the aforementioned fights and battles? Of course they did - and they did so brilliantly, stunning audiences with their visuals. But they were so much more than that, because the directors actually had ambitious visions for their movies and believed that they could make great movies without sacrificing anything with regards to the entertaining battles they would feature. The rest of the movie would not be sorry excuses to bring about the fighting - the fighting would be an integral part of something bigger.
@ kwizach - I think you might be getting a little ahead of yourself when you label works like Star Wars and Lord of the Rings as masterpieces as compared to Pacific Rim. Of course we can agree those are great movies but you have to admit even they have their share of 'stupid' plot elements, as well as less-than-perfect characterization and writing in some areas. Case in point: + Show Spoiler +
I fail to see how the apparent plot flaws in Pacific Rim are of any order of magnitude greater than the flaws in these other movies you have elevated on a pedestal. You argue that great movies had great directors who carried ambitious visions for their movies? Describe to me more specifically what 'ambitious' entails. Star Wars itself was envisioned as a homage to the adventure serials George Lucas watched as a kid, similar to how Pacific Rim was envisioned as a homage to the classic kaiju monster and other science fiction films. In fact it's been rumored that Lucas had some crazy ideas that may have derailed the original movies: Han Solo as a lizard-man, C3PO as a used car salesman personality... And considering where he took Episodes I-III - yeah he had a really ambitious vision for the Star Wars universe .
If you look at the 'Themes' section of the Pacific Rim Wikipedia page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_Rim_%28film%29) you can find some of the ideas Del Toro had in mind while fleshing out his script. Sure it's simplistic, but some of the best stories ever told are also the simplest. Personally I think it's kinda sweet; for once the main characters earnestly want to save the world and are willing to sacrifice themselves in order to do it.
I really don't think I'm "getting a little ahead of [my]self" when I say that the original Star Wars trilogy, Matrix and Lord of the Rings are masterpieces when compared to Pacific Rim. They have good characters and actors playing them, great character development, coherent and well-thought out storylines, etc., in addition to great visuals. The universes they're set in are also extremely well developed and internally consistent. None of this applies to Pacific Rim. With regards to the plot points you included, sc2superfan101 pretty much answered them all (the SW ep IV video is silly - shooting the planet could have prevented the Death Star from getting a shot at Yavin 4 because of the huge chunks of the planet that could have endangered the Death Star itself. We're also shown that Grand Moff Tarkin was completely confident in his battle station and considered that the Rebel attack posed no threat to it, which explains why he didn't feel the need to gamble and shoot at the first planet while hoping not to get delayed even further by the debris).
I'm well aware that Star Wars is also an homage to old adventure movies, but it doesn't affect my point the slightest. If you don't see the thought put into the larger Star Wars universe, even in episode I (that I didn't include in my examples, btw), well, I can't help you :-)
On July 22 2013 13:50 17Sphynx17 wrote: Regarding the wall: I think you're underestimating the panic factor and its ability to affect even top political decisions.
Considering I've studied crisis decision-making in international relations for a living, I don't think I am. This was also a decision taken over quite some time (months, if not years), nothing like an overnight crisis situation (and even then, there's no way that option would have been chosen).
On July 22 2013 13:50 17Sphynx17 wrote: Their resources have been drained building defenses of any kind. No long term solution seems to work, not even the Jaegers. Building a wall may have seemed like the most cost-effective solution at the time. I don't think anyone was aware of how ineffective the walls would be until the Kaiju smashed through it in Sidney.
Considering there is absolutely no way to build walls surrounding every continent in the first place, I'm pretty sure it's not too hard to understand how ineffective it was going to be. They've also had plenty of time to study the destructive power of the kaijus, and even class 3 kaijus could have gone through the walls we were shown. Also, there is absolutely no way building walls all around the planet would cost less than a jaeger program multiplied by 50, let alone the original one.
On July 22 2013 13:50 17Sphynx17 wrote: Even after that point, the rest of the movies seems to span only a couple of days, at the most, in an over-five-year-long war. It's never stated how long these Jaegers take to build, but I don't think a couple days is enough. It didn't seem like there was much the governments could do in that short amount of time.
Yes there was - reversing their decision. Australia proceeded to send away the one weapon that saved Sidney after the wall had failed to stop the kaiju. It doesn't get more ridiculous than this.
On July 22 2013 23:27 imJealous wrote: I question the sanity of anyone who watched this then felt it was important to analyze the soundness of the plot
Yes, let's make fun of people for being passionate about their interests - on teamliquid.net.
Of course, again, you have every right to be happy with a completely generic but visually well-done Robots vs Monsters movies. To say that Pacific Rim was "supposed to be" like that because it's a Robot vs Monsters movie, however, is completely wrong. Matrix could have been a stupid movie entirely centered around humans fighting computer programs through martial arts. The original Star Wars trilogy could have been stupid movies entirely centered around the Rebels fighting the Empire through ground and space combat. The Lord of the Rings could have been stupid movies entirely centered around big armies destroying each other. Did these movies still feature the aforementioned fights and battles? Of course they did - and they did so brilliantly, stunning audiences with their visuals. But they were so much more than that, because the directors actually had ambitious visions for their movies and believed that they could make great movies without sacrificing anything with regards to the entertaining battles they would feature. The rest of the movie would not be sorry excuses to bring about the fighting - the fighting would be an integral part of something bigger.
@ kwizach - I think you might be getting a little ahead of yourself when you label works like Star Wars and Lord of the Rings as masterpieces as compared to Pacific Rim. Of course we can agree those are great movies but you have to admit even they have their share of 'stupid' plot elements, as well as less-than-perfect characterization and writing in some areas. Case in point:
Nitpicking on this, the first Death Star had a quite lengthy recharge time. Second one was specifically mentioned to have the capability to deal with smaller capital ships with a much shorter recharge time on the beam.
Something I didn't get, Pentecost used to pilot one of those Mark I Jaegers (the same generation the Russians used), correct? And got cancer (or some other disease?) because they overlooked radiation shielding because of the reactor in the robot. How come neither of the russian were sick, since they have operated in that Jaeger a lot more time than Pentecost?
Also, did Pentecost ride solo at all times, or did his partner die? I got the idea that he used to pilot with Herc Hansen.
On July 24 2013 21:32 AXygnus wrote: Something I didn't get, Pentecost used to pilot one of those Mark I Jaegers (the same generation the Russians used), correct? And got cancer (or some other disease?) because they overlooked radiation shielding because of the reactor in the robot. How come neither of the russian were sick, since they have operated in that Jaeger a lot more time than Pentecost?
Also, did Pentecost ride solo at all times, or did his partner die? I got the idea that he used to pilot with Herc Hansen.
His partner blacked out on him that's why he had to fight solo. She later on died due to the radiation exposure. Was an integral part of the comic.
On July 24 2013 21:32 AXygnus wrote: Something I didn't get, Pentecost used to pilot one of those Mark I Jaegers (the same generation the Russians used), correct? And got cancer (or some other disease?) because they overlooked radiation shielding because of the reactor in the robot. How come neither of the russian were sick, since they have operated in that Jaeger a lot more time than Pentecost?
Also, did Pentecost ride solo at all times, or did his partner die? I got the idea that he used to pilot with Herc Hansen.
The Russians may have been a bit more rigorous with regards to their radiation shielding, what with naming their Jaegar Cherno Alpha.
With Cherno Alpha, it was originally stated to be a Mark 4 Jaeger, but for some reason they changed it to be a Mark 1 in the movie. So officially it is a Mark 1, but originally when they made and designed the thing, it wasn't. Is an example of a slip-up, probably.
On July 24 2013 21:32 AXygnus wrote: Something I didn't get, Pentecost used to pilot one of those Mark I Jaegers (the same generation the Russians used), correct? And got cancer (or some other disease?) because they overlooked radiation shielding because of the reactor in the robot. How come neither of the russian were sick, since they have operated in that Jaeger a lot more time than Pentecost?
Also, did Pentecost ride solo at all times, or did his partner die? I got the idea that he used to pilot with Herc Hansen.
I recall that Cherno Alpha was actually ran using diesel generators locator at its "head". Cherno Alpha's cockpit is at the chest and that big helmet is actually where the generators are (From a design concept perspective).
EPT
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