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Was disappointed by the movie...
+ Show Spoiler +Too much stuff copied from the old movie. Again there's a droid with secret plans, again there's family issues and there is a death star again, just bigger and better (seriously??)
Apparently there's also a republic, but we dont know anything about it and the next scene it gets destroyed. Because we don't know anything about that republic it makes that whole scene kinda meaningless instead of threatening.
Then the bigger and better death star just gets destroyed in 15 minutes (thinking about it, as far as I can remember they said it's 15 minutes when the X-Wings started. Thats not even possible! Seems like it's a harder task for me to get into my office than destroying a death star.), without a thought-out plan, actually just a couple of guys who improvise is enough. Seriously? That easy? that's pathetic.
Also, Kylo Ren is such a wimp!
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Good movie. Uneven pacing, felt like a few movies squished together (quite similar to RotS that way). But interesting characters well developed, which is all that was really needed to set up the next chapter.
The bit about the Republic was super vague. I realize it will be explained, but without knowledge of SW galaxy, the on-screen action would imply the entire Republic was in that one system and was utterly destroyed. What actually happened? It's annoying that we have to wait for novels etc. to clarify.
Loved the lightsaber fights. Kinetic and emotionally driven. The Force bits were cool too. Rey/Ren/Finn interactions make for what will probably be cool sequels. Felt like they spent too much of this one setting up, a la Avengers 1.
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+ Show Spoiler +For those of you who read the Thrawn trilogy: remember Mara's false memory of how the Emperor died by Vader and Luke ganging up on him? I wonder if Ren has a similar hallucinated understanding of the person Darth Vader was.
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On December 19 2015 07:49 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2015 07:34 Eliezar wrote:On December 19 2015 04:44 Stratos_speAr wrote:On December 19 2015 04:32 kwizach wrote:On December 19 2015 04:20 Stratos_speAr wrote:On December 19 2015 04:06 SkrollK wrote:On December 19 2015 03:45 oBlade wrote:I haven't seen the film yet, but: + Show Spoiler +It occurs to me that there's people noting or in some cases complaining that the movie copies Episode 4 a lot. And I can't say this is that surprising with JJ's sort of fan-service approach to the Star Trek movies. But it's also true that Episode 4 itself also copies/pays homage to a lot of earlier films, it's just that our generation has no memory of those movies so we wouldn't really see the context of A New Hope being unoriginal; instead, we see it as classic. Basically looking at it as a movie that restarts the series, do people think this would be a fair setup to give Episode 8 the chance to be as great as Episode 5 (which is my favorite)? The thing, which, to my mind, is the problem, is not That it pays hommage to another movie. It is That it totally copy a previous film IN THE SAME FRANCHISE. Part under spoiler spoils (captain obvious There), read at your own risks. + Show Spoiler +Honestly, Just think a second : They basically could have made the same movie, with 2-3 changes, it would have been ok :
1. Remove the superweapon. Find something else as a battle for the final of the film, some skirmish That escalade with renforcements from both sides, for some kind of objective. Do the same lightsaber duel, same han solo's death, but for a complete other reason than destroying DS 3.
2. Explain a little the galactic situation, adding some scenes on coruscant, with some explanation about why a Resistance during the NR, which systems are with FO, ...
3. OP a little bit less Rey and a little bit more Ren, do some actual funerals for Han, get a little more screentime for chewie/Leia's grief at the end.
And as the nail in the coffin, Just take a little care of the biggest inconsistencies.
The movie will not be perfect either. It will have some ressemblance with ep4. BUT, it would have actually been a Great SW movie. Like, really Great. Better than ROTJ, even mb better than ANH.
But they didnt do That. They played it overly safe, and I think they lost. Honestly, I just don't think you're trying really hard to hate on the movie. There are a lot of things you missed about the movie. + Show Spoiler +1) Changing the plot points is irrelevant. Why change them? What's wrong with them being the same? All I am hearing is "it's the same, therefore it's bad". This isn't the case at all. Star Wars isn't making the same mistake that Starcraft did. In Starcraft, the original story was heavily world-driven. We were interested in what was happening on a massive scale; are the Terrans going to survive? What is going on with Protoss civilization? How are the Zerg going to change with Kerrigan as the new leader? Metzen then tried to make SC2 character driven, with the main focus of the story as Kerrigan/Raynor/Artanis's characters as opposed to the larger events. This has never been what Star Wars was about. Star Wars was always a very character-driven story about personal journeys and redemption. The entire first six movies were about a man's fall from grace and redemption as a father. The backdrop of the galactic events were basically window dressing. Because of this, it really doesn't matter if they're the same or not. As long as it was done well (which it was), it can be the same plot points. 2) Both of your points (2 and 3) did exactly what all great intro movies to a series do; they set you up wanting more. Episode IV did the exact same thing. So did The Fellowship of the Ring. So did a whole slew of other ones. They give you compelling characters and/or situations and give you just enough to set up a framework, but don't give you enough to fill in the pieces. The majority of these key details were filled in during Episode V when compared to Episode IV, so it fits naturally into a good narrative arc for Episode VIII to do this for Episode VII. Also, I didn't really notice any major inconsistencies since they just completely threw out the expanded universe. http://www.dailydot.com/geek/star-wars-expanded-universe-not-canon/ He didn't miss anything about the movie. You just happen to not be bothered by borderline plagiarism and by getting virtually zero information about the global political context. I don't think you understand what the word plagiarism means. And Have you been living under a rock? There are quite a few series (including the original trilogy) that do the same thing and give you only a very vague geopolitical framework to start with in the first episode(s). It's a standard literary/film practice. So no, I'm not particularly bothered by either of these, because they were well-done. I have no idea what was going on, why or how. And that makes no sense that we are stuck just guessing what happened during the missing time. Its called "In medias res", or in the middle. Its a narrative device that was used in New Hope. They dont' explain the chain of events that lead to Vader being so powerful or why he is in charge, the construction of the death star and so on. It just is and we go forward from there. How we got there does not matter for the story that is being told. The same with this movie. What happened between 6 and 7 doesn't matter. We have the facts we need. The Empire was not fully defeated and are on the rise again. There be people who need to take the heroes journey. Its narrative by showing, not telling. You draw your own conclusions about what happened and why, rather than the film telling you.
I totally disagree. We were introduced in ANH to the empire looking for plans that were stolen by the rebel alliance and then we see the space station that the plans referred to, etc. We knew what was going on. We see a conflict. We are told that the empire is in control and its a binary system.
+ Show Spoiler +We have no idea in VII what the relationship of the rebellion is to the Republic is to the New Order...obviously the rebels are not part of the republic so are they rebelling from the republic? Was the new order the military branch of the New Republic that performed a coup by destroying the central government? What actually happened there? Its all ambiguous and failed to deliver real context, tension, and drama. The storyline may be the worst of all 7 star wars movies, but the physicalness/realness of the scenes was a great improvement. The battles were much better than the prequels. The acting was good. Its a solid movie, but lack of a coherent driving story definitely took away from what could have been.
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[/spoiler]On December 19 2015 11:06 TerransHill wrote:Was disappointed by the movie... + Show Spoiler +Too much stuff copied from the old movie. Again there's a droid with secret plans, again there's family issues and there is a death star again, just bigger and better (seriously??)
Apparently there's also a republic, but we dont know anything about it and the next scene it gets destroyed. Because we don't know anything about that republic it makes that whole scene kinda meaningless instead of threatening.
Then the bigger and better death star just gets destroyed in 15 minutes (thinking about it, as far as I can remember they said it's 15 minutes when the X-Wings started. Thats not even possible! Seems like it's a harder task for me to get into my office than destroying a death star.), without a thought-out plan, actually just a couple of guys who improvise is enough. Seriously? That easy? that's pathetic.
Also, Kylo Ren is such a wimp!
+ Show Spoiler +Yeah, there was a parallel between that being blown up and Alderaan, but it was missing context and emotional attachment that you got from Leia's home planet being blown up in front of her and her giving some context to it all. It was as if they said "here we will blow up some random stuff for coolness factor.
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On December 19 2015 12:30 Eliezar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2015 07:49 Plansix wrote:On December 19 2015 07:34 Eliezar wrote:On December 19 2015 04:44 Stratos_speAr wrote:On December 19 2015 04:32 kwizach wrote:On December 19 2015 04:20 Stratos_speAr wrote:On December 19 2015 04:06 SkrollK wrote:On December 19 2015 03:45 oBlade wrote:I haven't seen the film yet, but: + Show Spoiler +It occurs to me that there's people noting or in some cases complaining that the movie copies Episode 4 a lot. And I can't say this is that surprising with JJ's sort of fan-service approach to the Star Trek movies. But it's also true that Episode 4 itself also copies/pays homage to a lot of earlier films, it's just that our generation has no memory of those movies so we wouldn't really see the context of A New Hope being unoriginal; instead, we see it as classic. Basically looking at it as a movie that restarts the series, do people think this would be a fair setup to give Episode 8 the chance to be as great as Episode 5 (which is my favorite)? The thing, which, to my mind, is the problem, is not That it pays hommage to another movie. It is That it totally copy a previous film IN THE SAME FRANCHISE. Part under spoiler spoils (captain obvious There), read at your own risks. + Show Spoiler +Honestly, Just think a second : They basically could have made the same movie, with 2-3 changes, it would have been ok :
1. Remove the superweapon. Find something else as a battle for the final of the film, some skirmish That escalade with renforcements from both sides, for some kind of objective. Do the same lightsaber duel, same han solo's death, but for a complete other reason than destroying DS 3.
2. Explain a little the galactic situation, adding some scenes on coruscant, with some explanation about why a Resistance during the NR, which systems are with FO, ...
3. OP a little bit less Rey and a little bit more Ren, do some actual funerals for Han, get a little more screentime for chewie/Leia's grief at the end.
And as the nail in the coffin, Just take a little care of the biggest inconsistencies.
The movie will not be perfect either. It will have some ressemblance with ep4. BUT, it would have actually been a Great SW movie. Like, really Great. Better than ROTJ, even mb better than ANH.
But they didnt do That. They played it overly safe, and I think they lost. Honestly, I just don't think you're trying really hard to hate on the movie. There are a lot of things you missed about the movie. + Show Spoiler +1) Changing the plot points is irrelevant. Why change them? What's wrong with them being the same? All I am hearing is "it's the same, therefore it's bad". This isn't the case at all. Star Wars isn't making the same mistake that Starcraft did. In Starcraft, the original story was heavily world-driven. We were interested in what was happening on a massive scale; are the Terrans going to survive? What is going on with Protoss civilization? How are the Zerg going to change with Kerrigan as the new leader? Metzen then tried to make SC2 character driven, with the main focus of the story as Kerrigan/Raynor/Artanis's characters as opposed to the larger events. This has never been what Star Wars was about. Star Wars was always a very character-driven story about personal journeys and redemption. The entire first six movies were about a man's fall from grace and redemption as a father. The backdrop of the galactic events were basically window dressing. Because of this, it really doesn't matter if they're the same or not. As long as it was done well (which it was), it can be the same plot points. 2) Both of your points (2 and 3) did exactly what all great intro movies to a series do; they set you up wanting more. Episode IV did the exact same thing. So did The Fellowship of the Ring. So did a whole slew of other ones. They give you compelling characters and/or situations and give you just enough to set up a framework, but don't give you enough to fill in the pieces. The majority of these key details were filled in during Episode V when compared to Episode IV, so it fits naturally into a good narrative arc for Episode VIII to do this for Episode VII. Also, I didn't really notice any major inconsistencies since they just completely threw out the expanded universe. http://www.dailydot.com/geek/star-wars-expanded-universe-not-canon/ He didn't miss anything about the movie. You just happen to not be bothered by borderline plagiarism and by getting virtually zero information about the global political context. I don't think you understand what the word plagiarism means. And Have you been living under a rock? There are quite a few series (including the original trilogy) that do the same thing and give you only a very vague geopolitical framework to start with in the first episode(s). It's a standard literary/film practice. So no, I'm not particularly bothered by either of these, because they were well-done. I have no idea what was going on, why or how. And that makes no sense that we are stuck just guessing what happened during the missing time. Its called "In medias res", or in the middle. Its a narrative device that was used in New Hope. They dont' explain the chain of events that lead to Vader being so powerful or why he is in charge, the construction of the death star and so on. It just is and we go forward from there. How we got there does not matter for the story that is being told. The same with this movie. What happened between 6 and 7 doesn't matter. We have the facts we need. The Empire was not fully defeated and are on the rise again. There be people who need to take the heroes journey. Its narrative by showing, not telling. You draw your own conclusions about what happened and why, rather than the film telling you. I totally disagree. We were introduced in ANH to the empire looking for plans that were stolen by the rebel alliance and then we see the space station that the plans referred to, etc. We knew what was going on. We see a conflict. We are told that the empire is in control and its a binary system. + Show Spoiler +We have no idea in VII what the relationship of the rebellion is to the Republic is to the New Order...obviously the rebels are not part of the republic so are they rebelling from the republic? Was the new order the military branch of the New Republic that performed a coup by destroying the central government? What actually happened there? Its all ambiguous and failed to deliver real context, tension, and drama. The storyline may be the worst of all 7 star wars movies, but the physicalness/realness of the scenes was a great improvement. The battles were much better than the prequels. The acting was good. Its a solid movie, but lack of a coherent driving story definitely took away from what could have been.
You can disagree, but is still "In medias res". We are in the middle pre-existing conflict. The movie opens up with two ships shooting at each other and you don't even know why. ANH is one of the most cite examples of the narrative technique.
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On December 19 2015 11:24 LegalLord wrote:+ Show Spoiler +For those of you who read the Thrawn trilogy: remember Mara's false memory of how the Emperor died by Vader and Luke ganging up on him? I wonder if Ren has a similar hallucinated understanding of the person Darth Vader was.
You shouldn't think anything from the EU plays into these movies... I also have a hard time thinking Ren has an incorrect view of Darth Vader; he was literally trained by Luke and knows him very well. Surely at some point in his jedi training, Luke mentioned the dark side, and I'm sure Vader came up as a training exercise since he's a pretty prototypical story.
Seems more likely that after Snoke or w/e corrupted his mind, he thinks that Luke was responsible for Vader's death
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There are no direct plot points from the EU, but they pretty explicitly said that elements of the EU would inspire the events of the movie. That is about indirect enough to be feasible.
I think both the OT and PT have made it clear enough that no one can simply be corrupted to the dark side without having tendencies that would lead them there. Anakin was clearly mentally unstable, and so is Ren. He'd believe if it was convenient and well timed and that specific plot point had a lot to do with mind control as well.
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Even tho I think this is dumb, I'm gonna add a spoiler tag
+ Show Spoiler +
I had 2-3 issues with the movie, overall thought it was really good (I frankly don't care too much that they basically replicated the original plot, I feel like in a way they have to in order to backtrack from Episodes 1-3);
... first off:
am I the only one who felt like the MAIN plot arc had absolutely 0 tension in it? Meaning, the Death Star 3 threatening to destroy the entire Resistance planet. They dealt with it so nonchalantly, even in their planning meeting they were like "ya guys, this gon be so ez!"
Then when they're actually on the planet, there's 0 struggle. Finn + Han + Chewie (literally just 3 people) infiltrate an entire planet of First Order people and manage to knock out the shields with only 1 shot being fired. Then, they bomb the weird shaft to open it up for Poe to come shooting and blows up the whole planet. Han dying was a given, and the Resistance fighters only lost 2 people the whole time? So they had 3 casualties and destroyed an ENTIRE PLANET of the First Order. And, this happened in 15 minutes.
I thought that was kinda lame.
In A New Hope, there's a huge buildup of tension because all the attack runs fail, and in the end Luke and his 2 partners get shot down and can't hit the target until it's just Luke by himself, with Vader honing in on him. There's a real chance they may not make it out.
You feel the tension in the Rebel base on Yavin when you see the computer screen showing the Death Star's progress.
There's none of that in Episode 7, nobody but 3PO seemed too concerned, and his concern didn't even seem real.
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On December 19 2015 13:22 LegalLord wrote:
There are no direct plot points from the EU, but they pretty explicitly said that elements of the EU would inspire the events of the movie. That is about indirect enough to be feasible.
I think both the OT and PT have made it clear enough that no one can simply be corrupted to the dark side without having tendencies that would lead them there. Anakin was clearly mentally unstable, and so is Ren. He'd believe if it was convenient and well timed and that specific plot point had a lot to do with mind control as well.
Regardless of that, my point still stands -- Luke actually trained him, seems unlikely that he has such a warped vision of what happened.
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On Rey's parents:
+ Show Spoiler +
I definitely think that Rey's father is Skywalker. Her obscene power, coupled with his lightsaber calling out to her, indicate to me that she is his daughter.
The more interesting question is who is the mother? Obviously can't do the whole "born by the force" crap they did with Anakin. I imagine we'll learn more about the mother in the upcoming movie
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On December 19 2015 13:44 On_Slaught wrote:On Rey's parents: + Show Spoiler +
I definitely think that Rey's father is Skywalker. Her obscene power, coupled with his lightsaber calling out to her, indicate to me that she is his daughter.
The more interesting question is who is the mother? Obviously can't do the whole "born by the force" crap they did with Anakin. I imagine we'll learn more about the mother in the upcoming movie
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+ Show Spoiler +Seems to me that if she indeed is Luke's daughter, then the mother has to br some new character. There is no female character in the OT beside Leia and hope this isny Game of Thrones :p
I have some doubts though, in her vision I had the feeling she was kidnapped, or her parents were. Does she even knows her parents? It kinda looks like it as im her vision she seems old enough to remember. Maybe Luke got a girl preggo and left? Will have to rewatch the movie just for that sequence... Sigh
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On December 19 2015 13:17 Xeris wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2015 11:24 LegalLord wrote:+ Show Spoiler +For those of you who read the Thrawn trilogy: remember Mara's false memory of how the Emperor died by Vader and Luke ganging up on him? I wonder if Ren has a similar hallucinated understanding of the person Darth Vader was. You shouldn't think anything from the EU plays into these movies... I also have a hard time thinking Ren has an incorrect view of Darth Vader; he was literally trained by Luke and knows him very well. Surely at some point in his jedi training, Luke mentioned the dark side, and I'm sure Vader came up as a training exercise since he's a pretty prototypical story. Seems more likely that after Snoke or w/e corrupted his mind, he thinks that Luke was responsible for Vader's death
Fk your spoilers man. God you pissed me off so much now. I was supposed to go watch the movie on wednesday but got food poisoning and spent the day in hospital and first tickets were available for Sunday so thank you very much
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On December 19 2015 17:08 NukeD wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2015 13:17 Xeris wrote:On December 19 2015 11:24 LegalLord wrote:+ Show Spoiler +For those of you who read the Thrawn trilogy: remember Mara's false memory of how the Emperor died by Vader and Luke ganging up on him? I wonder if Ren has a similar hallucinated understanding of the person Darth Vader was. You shouldn't think anything from the EU plays into these movies... I also have a hard time thinking Ren has an incorrect view of Darth Vader; he was literally trained by Luke and knows him very well. Surely at some point in his jedi training, Luke mentioned the dark side, and I'm sure Vader came up as a training exercise since he's a pretty prototypical story. Seems more likely that after Snoke or w/e corrupted his mind, he thinks that Luke was responsible for Vader's death Fk your spoilers man. God you pissed me off so much now. I was supposed to go watch the movie on wednesday but got food poisoning and spent the day in hospital and first tickets were available for Sunday so thank you very much
How did he spoil anything? He's referencing stuff that happened in the original trilogy. The only arguable spoiler is Snoke. And that's just a name.
He spoiled nothing. Calm down.
edit: I guess the "trained by Luke" thing is a bit bigger. Still, it's not that bad. Don't worry too much. It's not a huge plot point.
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On December 19 2015 17:08 NukeD wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2015 13:17 Xeris wrote:On December 19 2015 11:24 LegalLord wrote:+ Show Spoiler +For those of you who read the Thrawn trilogy: remember Mara's false memory of how the Emperor died by Vader and Luke ganging up on him? I wonder if Ren has a similar hallucinated understanding of the person Darth Vader was. You shouldn't think anything from the EU plays into these movies... I also have a hard time thinking Ren has an incorrect view of Darth Vader; he was literally trained by Luke and knows him very well. Surely at some point in his jedi training, Luke mentioned the dark side, and I'm sure Vader came up as a training exercise since he's a pretty prototypical story. Seems more likely that after Snoke or w/e corrupted his mind, he thinks that Luke was responsible for Vader's death Fk your spoilers man. God you pissed me off so much now. I was supposed to go watch the movie on wednesday but got food poisoning and spent the day in hospital and first tickets were available for Sunday so thank you very much
Why take the risk of reading a film thread post-release? You're lucky they're only minor spoilers
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Honestly why would you even read this thread if you don't want spoilers, that's just dumb.
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On December 19 2015 17:08 NukeD wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2015 13:17 Xeris wrote:On December 19 2015 11:24 LegalLord wrote:+ Show Spoiler +For those of you who read the Thrawn trilogy: remember Mara's false memory of how the Emperor died by Vader and Luke ganging up on him? I wonder if Ren has a similar hallucinated understanding of the person Darth Vader was. You shouldn't think anything from the EU plays into these movies... I also have a hard time thinking Ren has an incorrect view of Darth Vader; he was literally trained by Luke and knows him very well. Surely at some point in his jedi training, Luke mentioned the dark side, and I'm sure Vader came up as a training exercise since he's a pretty prototypical story. Seems more likely that after Snoke or w/e corrupted his mind, he thinks that Luke was responsible for Vader's death Fk your spoilers man. God you pissed me off so much now. I was supposed to go watch the movie on wednesday but got food poisoning and spent the day in hospital and first tickets were available for Sunday so thank you very much
U were checking the thread to be spoiled  .
I totally loved sw7 saw it two times,imo more easy to digest than any of the movies from the OT.
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On December 19 2015 17:30 Spaylz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2015 17:08 NukeD wrote:On December 19 2015 13:17 Xeris wrote:On December 19 2015 11:24 LegalLord wrote:+ Show Spoiler +For those of you who read the Thrawn trilogy: remember Mara's false memory of how the Emperor died by Vader and Luke ganging up on him? I wonder if Ren has a similar hallucinated understanding of the person Darth Vader was. You shouldn't think anything from the EU plays into these movies... I also have a hard time thinking Ren has an incorrect view of Darth Vader; he was literally trained by Luke and knows him very well. Surely at some point in his jedi training, Luke mentioned the dark side, and I'm sure Vader came up as a training exercise since he's a pretty prototypical story. Seems more likely that after Snoke or w/e corrupted his mind, he thinks that Luke was responsible for Vader's death Fk your spoilers man. God you pissed me off so much now. I was supposed to go watch the movie on wednesday but got food poisoning and spent the day in hospital and first tickets were available for Sunday so thank you very much How did he spoil anything? He's referencing stuff that happened in the original trilogy. The only arguable spoiler is Snoke. And that's just a name. He spoiled nothing. Calm down. edit: I guess the "trained by Luke" thing is a bit bigger. Still, it's not that bad. Don't worry too much. It's not a huge plot point.
Well Ren being trained by Luke sounds like a big deal to me. Dunno, I hope its not.
On December 19 2015 17:39 Laurens wrote:
Honestly why would you even read this thread if you don't want spoilers, that's just dumb.
I check the thread to see what people think of the movie, if its good or bad, because I'm too eager too watch it and I trust TL guys the most on how good the movie really is. I know its dumb but I can't really control my self  I did however manage to control myself by not clicking the spoiler tags.
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+ Show Spoiler +i think Rey's mother was likely one of luke's first students. Ren killed her during his betrayal but Rey was hidden, without Luke's knowledge
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So my pre-TFA binge was supposed to consist of Episode I, II, then 2/3s of the 2D Clone Wars cartoon, then as much of the newer 3D Clone Wars show, play through Clone Commandos, the rest of the 2D Clone Wars cartoon, Episode III, IV, the Holiday Special with Rifftrax commentary, and then V and VI, and then VII
I'm on Holiday Special, and even with the Rifftrax commentary I'm seriously contemplating my poor life decision to watch it. I already watched through most of it (minus music videos) long ago .What the hell am I doing.
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EPT
