Alright, so I just finished watching 1.11 and 2.22 and you guys weren't kidding when you said everything changes with 2.22. I still don't think the original Evangelion was amazing although it was a sort of masterpiece in the sense that it was a pivotal moment for the art form. I'm really liking how they decided to change the whole direction with Rebuild and I'm pretty excited to see what they'll do with 3.33. I'm not expecting anything utterly mindblowing though. The themes of Evangelion, although interesting, just turns out to feel more shallow as the years pass for me. It's a classic for sure, but it's not one of the few anime series that invokes sharp nostalgia and continuing appreciation.
On September 19 2012 10:21 Sentenal wrote: Message of the show?
Yoshiyuki Tomino, Creator of Mobile Suit Gundam: I was very upset when I saw Evangelion, because it was apparent to me that the people who made it weren't thinking at all about making fun for or gaining the sympathy of the audience. Instead they tried to convince the audience to admit that everybody is sick, practically in the middle of a nervous breakdown, all the time. I don't think you should show things like that to everybody. It's not entertainment for the masses--it's much more interested in admitting that we're all depressed nervous wrecks, I thought. It was a work that told people it was okay to be depressed, and it accepted the psychological state that said if you don't like the way the world works, then it's okay to just pick up a gun and attack someone. I don't think that's a real work of art. When people see that, they begin to realize they are the same way. I think that we should try to show people how to live healthier, fuller lives, to foster their identity as a part of their community, and to encourage them to work happily until they die. I can't accept any work that doesn't say that.
No.
The creators themselves stated that the show focused on the otaku culture and the phenomenon of social fear present among Japan's youth. If you ever watched the ending, or the way Shinji is portrayed, you'd understand that depression and teen angst are actually condemned by the show. The irony is that the very last episode ended with the very ideas you say they should have defended : cheer up, life is difficult but life can be brilliant as long as you look straight up, building a cocoon to defend yourself is pointless and self-destructive.
On the other hand, Gundam Wing is typically an empty anime made just for fanservice purposes so young boys can feel less shitty about their lives. And don't even get me started on worse examples like Love Hina... This is what led many people to threaten Gainax in in many ways : they wanted pure entertainment, just like pigs who'd become violent once you stop feeding them their daily garbage.
On a side note, works of art don't have "messages". As Hitchcock said, "messages are for postmen". If you could reduce a song, a movie or a book to a single sentence, then what is the point of it in the first place?
So, you are imagining that sort of meaning to the ending of Evangelion? Seems kinda different from what I remember in End of Evangelion, with everyone in the world being turned into tang by Albino Reis (essentially, every dies), leaving only Asuka and Shinji alive, and then ends with Shinji waking up and strangling Asuka.
Additionally, to clarify as to who Tomino is, he was the one who created the orginal Mobile Suit Gundam, and many others in the series (such as happy shows like Zeta Gundam and Victory Gundam), but Gundam Wing was not done by him. Gundam Wing was done by Masashi Ikeda. Its also viewed upon poorly by most Gundam fans, myself included, so I dunno what point you are trying to make by talking about it.
This is what led many people to threaten Gainax in in many ways : they wanted pure entertainment, just like pigs who'd become violent once you stop feeding them their daily garbage.
lol, people "threatening" Gainex, entertainment being likened to garbage. What a great thread this is.
The "everyone turning to tang" is human instrumentality that shinji ends up stopping from happening, completing his char arc. Episodes 25 and 26 are a lot clearer with shinji's char arc and how he can't continue his angst and depression and cocooning himself from any interaction because he could be hurt, that humans are defined by their interactions and he needs other people regardless of whether they hurt him or not. Shinji is not supposed to start as a "likeable" char, all those unlikeable traits about him are condemned by the show, it's where the char ends up that is the important part. He's supposed to start unlikeable, but through his journey show that he is empathizable and worthy of redemption through what he learns, which leads him to stop instrumentality.
He ends up in a hellish word, right next to a girl, who he immediately strangles upon seeing. If it wasn't for End of Evangelion, I might buy your interpretation more, but EoE was supposed to be the "actual" ending. The last 2 episodes of the TV Series are so messed up you could interpret it in almost anyway you want (hence this entire discussion). EOE's events, however, have much less leeway. Instrumentality "stopped", but only after everyone was reduced to LCL. And technically, with the twisted logic of the show, being turned into LCL isn't technically death, so its still possible to interpret everyone as being alive, but come on, look at this:
The post above clarified things nicely. Shinji was suppose to melt in the "soup of life", like everyone else. But the strenght of his will ultimately kept him alive as an individual. Also, the End of Evangelion is just the concrete illustration of episodes 24, 25 and 26 from the show (which you apparently haven't seen).
I have seen it, and please don't make up shit about what I have and haven't seen.
So, according to how you interpret the ending, Shinji's strength of will keeps him alive as an individual, an individual who immediately strangles Asuka when he wakes up after the whole event? And thats supposed to be Shinji's realization of "cheer up, life is difficult but life can be brilliant as long as you look straight up, building a cocoon to defend yourself is pointless and self-destructive."? Its like coming to terms with being a psychopath, if you ask me.
@Sentenal You know shinji had been alone for quite some time after he rejected Instrumentality. Studies have shown that when you place a person in isolation for a long time they tend to go crazy
Prisoners who are isolated for prolonged periods of time have been known to experience "depression, despair, anxiety, rage, claustrophobia, hallucinations, problems with impulse control, and/or an impaired ability to think, concentrate, or remember." (2) Studies have also shown that isolation can cause "impaired vision and hearing... tinnitus [(ringing in the ears)], weakening of the immune system, amenorrhea [(absence of menstrual periods in women)], premature menopause... and aggressive behavior in prisoners, volunteers and animals." (1)
Previously healthy prisoners have "develop[ed] clinical symptoms usually associated with psychosis or severe affective disorders" (2) including "all types of psychiatric morbidity." (4) Many have committed suicide.
Individuals do vary in how well they can deal with living in isolation, however. (4) For prisoners with pre-existing mental or emotional disorders, living without normal human interaction, physical and mental activity and stimulation can aggravate their symptoms to levels equivalent to torture. (2), (3) In one complaint filed against the Connecticut Department of Correction in August 2003, social isolation and sensory deprivation drove some prisoners to "lash out by swallowing razors, smashing their heads into walls or cutting their flesh." (3)
On September 19 2012 12:56 Quintum_ wrote: @Sentenal You know shinji had been alone for quite some time after he rejected Instrumentality. Studies have shown that when you place a person in isolation for a long time they tend to go crazy
Prisoners who are isolated for prolonged periods of time have been known to experience "depression, despair, anxiety, rage, claustrophobia, hallucinations, problems with impulse control, and/or an impaired ability to think, concentrate, or remember." (2) Studies have also shown that isolation can cause "impaired vision and hearing... tinnitus [(ringing in the ears)], weakening of the immune system, amenorrhea [(absence of menstrual periods in women)], premature menopause... and aggressive behavior in prisoners, volunteers and animals." (1)
Previously healthy prisoners have "develop[ed] clinical symptoms usually associated with psychosis or severe affective disorders" (2) including "all types of psychiatric morbidity." (4) Many have committed suicide.
Individuals do vary in how well they can deal with living in isolation, however. (4) For prisoners with pre-existing mental or emotional disorders, living without normal human interaction, physical and mental activity and stimulation can aggravate their symptoms to levels equivalent to torture. (2), (3) In one complaint filed against the Connecticut Department of Correction in August 2003, social isolation and sensory deprivation drove some prisoners to "lash out by swallowing razors, smashing their heads into walls or cutting their flesh." (3)
I'll be honest, I don't remember the time frame between the end of Instrumentality and him deciding to strangle Asuka. I assumed it wasn't any time at all or a short amount of time, but assuming he was in isolation for a long time, its still the story ending with him going crazy, is it not?
One thing I've noticed about NGE is that it's easy to portray the show in a lot of different (perhaps misleading) ways if described in a manner that might be overly concise. Not to say these aren't legitimate perspectives, I don't see these posts (such as the first reply in the thread or the webcomic on page 3) as being based on inaccuracies, and offer fair critical responses in a show that has in the past been quite controversial. But no doubt it's best for one to see the show for themselves and form their own opinion and not go by the opinion of others.
Depending on what one plucks from the show it can be stupid/ridiculous/absurd, and of course jacked up. Or, like like me, mindblowingly awesome. I would never accuse anyone of having a "limited perspective" on the show, in fact I think it was the writer's (Hideaki Anno's) intention to have a final product that's both broad and conflicting, leaving little room for consensus with regard to interpretation. That has led to some people labeling the series as "pretentious," but I've always enjoyed it. Except for maybe the last 2 episodes; I enjoyed those at the time I first watched them but EoE is definitely miles, miles ahead of what those amounted to. Been a fan of the show since I was 14 (same as the pilots ).
Looking forward to the Rebuild movies yet to be released. And, some of you may chide me for saying this but I hope that someday the Live Action Evangelion project goes forward and is released in theatres. Been in "development hell" since '03, so almost ten years now but from what I gather in the tid-bits of news that come out every so often, there is some very persistent group that wants a live action Eva realized. If it happens to have the production quality of one of the Mortal Kombat movies, we can burn every trace of it's media and rip apart the memories from our brains.
On September 19 2012 12:56 Quintum_ wrote: @Sentenal You know shinji had been alone for quite some time after he rejected Instrumentality. Studies have shown that when you place a person in isolation for a long time they tend to go crazy
Prisoners who are isolated for prolonged periods of time have been known to experience "depression, despair, anxiety, rage, claustrophobia, hallucinations, problems with impulse control, and/or an impaired ability to think, concentrate, or remember." (2) Studies have also shown that isolation can cause "impaired vision and hearing... tinnitus [(ringing in the ears)], weakening of the immune system, amenorrhea [(absence of menstrual periods in women)], premature menopause... and aggressive behavior in prisoners, volunteers and animals." (1)
Previously healthy prisoners have "develop[ed] clinical symptoms usually associated with psychosis or severe affective disorders" (2) including "all types of psychiatric morbidity." (4) Many have committed suicide.
Individuals do vary in how well they can deal with living in isolation, however. (4) For prisoners with pre-existing mental or emotional disorders, living without normal human interaction, physical and mental activity and stimulation can aggravate their symptoms to levels equivalent to torture. (2), (3) In one complaint filed against the Connecticut Department of Correction in August 2003, social isolation and sensory deprivation drove some prisoners to "lash out by swallowing razors, smashing their heads into walls or cutting their flesh." (3)
I'll be honest, I don't remember the time frame between the end of Instrumentality and him deciding to strangle Asuka. I assumed it wasn't any time at all or a short amount of time, but assuming he was in isolation for a long time, its still the story ending with him going crazy, is it not?
I dont think so, he did stop when he heard asuka's voice showing that he was not all the way gone, just pushed to the edge waiting for everyone to come back as long as it was implied that he was alone. I do agree that ending was a bit bleek, could of maybe shown a time lapse of more people coming back out of the LCL as they found themselves. Would of given the series a little more closer i think.
A lot of time had passed since Shinji rejected instrumentality.
Shinji had the time to create tombstones. The cross that was nailed to one had begun to rust from the nail. And he panicked when he saw a glimpse of Rei like the first episode, and the sudden appearance of Asuka.
He must have not understood that Asuka was actually there with him, which is why he strangled her instinctively, because he only calmed down and started to cry once Asuka touched his face like his mother did.
I read the Manga and watched End of Evangelion. Is the Manga true to the anime enough to where watching the anime is a waste of time? I loved the Manga and though End of Evangelion got too trippy at the end. Felt like an acid trip just watching it
On September 19 2012 10:21 Sentenal wrote: Message of the show?
Yoshiyuki Tomino, Creator of Mobile Suit Gundam: I was very upset when I saw Evangelion, because it was apparent to me that the people who made it weren't thinking at all about making fun for or gaining the sympathy of the audience. Instead they tried to convince the audience to admit that everybody is sick, practically in the middle of a nervous breakdown, all the time. I don't think you should show things like that to everybody. It's not entertainment for the masses--it's much more interested in admitting that we're all depressed nervous wrecks, I thought. It was a work that told people it was okay to be depressed, and it accepted the psychological state that said if you don't like the way the world works, then it's okay to just pick up a gun and attack someone. I don't think that's a real work of art. When people see that, they begin to realize they are the same way. I think that we should try to show people how to live healthier, fuller lives, to foster their identity as a part of their community, and to encourage them to work happily until they die. I can't accept any work that doesn't say that.
No.
The creators themselves stated that the show focused on the otaku culture and the phenomenon of social fear present among Japan's youth. If you ever watched the ending, or the way Shinji is portrayed, you'd understand that depression and teen angst are actually condemned by the show. The irony is that the very last episode ended with the very ideas you say they should have defended : cheer up, life is difficult but life can be brilliant as long as you look straight up, building a cocoon to defend yourself is pointless and self-destructive.
On the other hand, Gundam Wing is typically an empty anime made just for fanservice purposes so young boys can feel less shitty about their lives. And don't even get me started on worse examples like Love Hina... This is what led many people to threaten Gainax in in many ways : they wanted pure entertainment, just like pigs who'd become violent once you stop feeding them their daily garbage.
On a side note, works of art don't have "messages". As Hitchcock said, "messages are for postmen". If you could reduce a song, a movie or a book to a single sentence, then what is the point of it in the first place?
So, you are imagining that sort of meaning to the ending of Evangelion? Seems kinda different from what I remember in End of Evangelion, with everyone in the world being turned into tang by Albino Reis (essentially, every dies), leaving only Asuka and Shinji alive, and then ends with Shinji waking up and strangling Asuka.
Additionally, to clarify as to who Tomino is, he was the one who created the orginal Mobile Suit Gundam, and many others in the series (such as happy shows like Zeta Gundam and Victory Gundam), but Gundam Wing was not done by him. Gundam Wing was done by Masashi Ikeda. Its also viewed upon poorly by most Gundam fans, myself included, so I dunno what point you are trying to make by talking about it.
This is what led many people to threaten Gainax in in many ways : they wanted pure entertainment, just like pigs who'd become violent once you stop feeding them their daily garbage.
lol, people "threatening" Gainex, entertainment being likened to garbage. What a great thread this is.
The "everyone turning to tang" is human instrumentality that shinji ends up stopping from happening, completing his char arc. Episodes 25 and 26 are a lot clearer with shinji's char arc and how he can't continue his angst and depression and cocooning himself from any interaction because he could be hurt, that humans are defined by their interactions and he needs other people regardless of whether they hurt him or not. Shinji is not supposed to start as a "likeable" char, all those unlikeable traits about him are condemned by the show, it's where the char ends up that is the important part. He's supposed to start unlikeable, but through his journey show that he is empathizable and worthy of redemption through what he learns, which leads him to stop instrumentality.
He ends up in a hellish word, right next to a girl, who he immediately strangles upon seeing. If it wasn't for End of Evangelion, I might buy your interpretation more, but EoE was supposed to be the "actual" ending. The last 2 episodes of the TV Series are so messed up you could interpret it in almost anyway you want (hence this entire discussion). EOE's events, however, have much less leeway. Instrumentality "stopped", but only after everyone was reduced to LCL. And technically, with the twisted logic of the show, being turned into LCL isn't technically death, so its still possible to interpret everyone as being alive, but come on, look at this:
Shinji's stops intstrumentality and allows people to come back if they want to, though not everyone does right right away. Just because they are turned into lcl doesn't mean they're dead, even shinji turns into lcl during the series over two episodes and then comes back. The fact that asuka is there at all shows he stopped instrumentality. The fact that he strangles her is also important, it shows that shinji has developed his own will and force of character, and understands that all interactions, whether good or bad, are important. Why he strangled her has a few interpretations. Maybe it's becuase he didn't like her and didn't want to be melded with her(of all people to come back, why did it have to be her). Maybe it's because he didn't want to lose her(instrumentality destroys individuality), and felt abandoned by everyone when instrumentality happen. Maybe he was just crazy from instrumentality and thought it was the voices coming back to torment him more after he finished making his decision and was fed up with them. It certainly wasn't a nice thing to do, but it was important. The old shinji would not have done anything at all, it shows the new shinji has not only is done with his identity crisis, but how strongly he feels about his convictions.
Are you guys trying to tell me that Shinji wasn't insane at the very end of EoE, and that strangling a girl when you first wake up who was laying right next to you is normal behavior? Maybe "normal" for someone who has lost their mind, but that is still psychotic behavior. He stops, but that doesn't erase the fact that the kid had more than a few screws loose at the ending, which means that the final result of EoE had Shinji "accepting who he is" and tryed to murder the first person he encounters. Was he driven insane by the time he apparently spent by himself? Maybe, but that still ends with the kid going insane, and doesn't change my point.
And unless more people were shown coming out of the LCL, I can write them off as dead. Are they technically dead? Not techncially, but saying "well, maybe they could come back" is pointless, since we aren't shown anyone else coming back, save Asuka, which means everyone else is still tang, and still for all intents and purposes, dead.
On September 20 2012 00:02 Fyrewolf wrote:Why he strangled her has a few interpretations. Maybe it's becuase he didn't like her and didn't want to be melded with her(of all people to come back, why did it have to be her). Maybe it's because he didn't want to lose her(instrumentality destroys individuality), and felt abandoned by everyone when instrumentality happen. Maybe he was just crazy from instrumentality and thought it was the voices coming back to torment him more after he finished making his decision and was fed up with them. It certainly wasn't a nice thing to do, but it was important. The old shinji would not have done anything at all, it shows the new shinji has not only is done with his identity crisis, but how strongly he feels about his convictions.
This is my interpretation: Asuka pretty much represents the reason he wished for everyone to disappear/die. His psychological downward spiral ends in the mental scene where he begs Asuka to help him understand her and show a little kindness, but she refuses him completely and proceeds to hurt him - hedgehogs dilemma at its worst - after which he strangles her.
I think Asuka reappearing just brought up all those overwhelming feelings again and in the situation he is in (everyone is pretty much dead, civilisation is gone) he might as well kill her (as he already wished for in his mind). He feels the pain he feared to much again, and response in the way he always did. What makes him snap out of it is the first sign of kindness from Asuka as she touches him. Realizing this is the pain he has chosen to endure over and over again, he starts crying.
Some more thoughts on Rebuild: I think its very important to take into account how the Third Impact changed everyone during the complementation of souls and after reading about the "true sequel" stuff concerning Rebuild, I'm mindblown. Watching the relationships between the main characters and how they changed in comparison to the original, its very much like everyone has learned something. They don't know it as they don't remember their "first run" but they handle their specific problem much better than before:
Rei understands (and enjoys) interaction with people and emotions better, she develops more of a personality. Asuka tries to be at least nicer ... although she still is pretty arrogant. I guess 3.0 will tell a lot more. And Shinji is mostly just more confident, as he fears less getting hurt by others. And I think another thing changed about him... he falls in love with Rei, not Asuka. I guess not searching praise from an abusive person is a step forward too.
Essentially the series becomes a tale about the refinement of the human soul through self-chosen and cyclical suffering. The title now seems a little less far fetched too.
This might be somewhat far fetched, but I believe there are are a handful of characters who "know" more about the greater plan, the reason for the repetitions and their role in this play. Even in the original series, they are the ones who aren't suprised by anything. Funnily enough, those are the ones seemingly without a trauma: Mari, Kaworu, Kaji, Yui and maybe Fuyutsuki.
For example, Mari suddenly becomes very interesting character to me: Before, I thought of her somewhat as a "movie gimmick": She suddenly appears to fight in an epic way and pretty much dies gladly in the process - but that seemed it. She always unbelievable confident and doesn't seem to be psychologically damaged. She talks about "using adults as the pawns for children", can use "beast mode" and the only thing she did which truely mattered (besides pleasing otakus) was making sure than Shinjis sees Rei being swallowed by the Angel.
Man, I'm typing way to much again. A lot of this is probably crap, but heck, I'm having so much fun thinking about all this. I guess NGE somewhat helps the process of refining the soul of the viewer - can't wait for 3.0 :D
On September 20 2012 04:41 Sentenal wrote: Are you guys trying to tell me that Shinji wasn't insane at the very end of EoE, and that strangling a girl when you first wake up who was laying right next to you is normal behavior? Maybe "normal" for someone who has lost their mind, but that is still psychotic behavior. He stops, but that doesn't erase the fact that the kid had more than a few screws loose at the ending, which means that the final result of EoE had Shinji "accepting who he is" and tryed to murder the first person he encounters. Was he driven insane by the time he apparently spent by himself? Maybe, but that still ends with the kid going insane, and doesn't change my point.
And unless more people were shown coming out of the LCL, I can write them off as dead. Are they technically dead? Not techncially, but saying "well, maybe they could come back" is pointless, since we aren't shown anyone else coming back, save Asuka, which means everyone else is still tang, and still for all intents and purposes, dead.
They aren't dead. The Human Instrumentality Project isn't about murdering everyone on the planet, that makes no sense. They all become LCL because human instrumentality is forcing everyone's minds and bodies to become one with each other. The LCL itself is (somehow) alive, with every human's mind merged into one mind. That doesn't mean that everyone is dead. And of course Shinji has a few screws loose, that's kind of the point. Forcing ordinary people into extraordinary situations is enough to give anyone a few loose screws. And it's not necessarily the case that he's psychotic or insane, it's not just the first person he sees or any girl he is strangling, but specifically asuka, who up until that point has caused him nothing but pain.
@Tabularasa
That's an interesting interpretation. I've always kind of leaned toward shinji not really liking asuka because she's never nice to him, but that's a far more detailed interpretation than the short list I made to provide examples. I kinda like that interpretation, it fits well with the characters personalities and the place in the story arc.
On September 20 2012 04:41 Sentenal wrote: Are you guys trying to tell me that Shinji wasn't insane at the very end of EoE, and that strangling a girl when you first wake up who was laying right next to you is normal behavior? Maybe "normal" for someone who has lost their mind, but that is still psychotic behavior. He stops, but that doesn't erase the fact that the kid had more than a few screws loose at the ending, which means that the final result of EoE had Shinji "accepting who he is" and tryed to murder the first person he encounters. Was he driven insane by the time he apparently spent by himself? Maybe, but that still ends with the kid going insane, and doesn't change my point.
And unless more people were shown coming out of the LCL, I can write them off as dead. Are they technically dead? Not techncially, but saying "well, maybe they could come back" is pointless, since we aren't shown anyone else coming back, save Asuka, which means everyone else is still tang, and still for all intents and purposes, dead.
They aren't dead. The Human Instrumentality Project isn't about murdering everyone on the planet, that makes no sense. They all become LCL because human instrumentality is forcing everyone's minds and bodies to become one with each other. The LCL itself is (somehow) alive, with every human's mind merged into one mind. That doesn't mean that everyone is dead. And of course Shinji has a few screws loose, that's kind of the point. Forcing ordinary people into extraordinary situations is enough to give anyone a few loose screws.
If you want to argue that human beings being reduced to tang and are never shown to turn back is still being alive, feel free. Its an asinine argument, when its a state that's treated and portrayed no differently from death beyond a technicality, but whatever.
So the point is the anime ends with Shinji coming to terms with himself, and portrays this as him as a psychopath at the very end. Which goes back to the line that started this entire string of discussion:
It was a work that told people it was okay to be depressed, and it accepted the psychological state that said if you don't like the way the world works, then it's okay to just pick up a gun and attack someone.
Doesn't sound like an anime that is productive or beneficial for the audience at all, to me.
On September 20 2012 04:41 Sentenal wrote: Are you guys trying to tell me that Shinji wasn't insane at the very end of EoE, and that strangling a girl when you first wake up who was laying right next to you is normal behavior? Maybe "normal" for someone who has lost their mind, but that is still psychotic behavior. He stops, but that doesn't erase the fact that the kid had more than a few screws loose at the ending, which means that the final result of EoE had Shinji "accepting who he is" and tryed to murder the first person he encounters. Was he driven insane by the time he apparently spent by himself? Maybe, but that still ends with the kid going insane, and doesn't change my point.
And unless more people were shown coming out of the LCL, I can write them off as dead. Are they technically dead? Not techncially, but saying "well, maybe they could come back" is pointless, since we aren't shown anyone else coming back, save Asuka, which means everyone else is still tang, and still for all intents and purposes, dead.
They aren't dead. The Human Instrumentality Project isn't about murdering everyone on the planet, that makes no sense. They all become LCL because human instrumentality is forcing everyone's minds and bodies to become one with each other. The LCL itself is (somehow) alive, with every human's mind merged into one mind. That doesn't mean that everyone is dead. And of course Shinji has a few screws loose, that's kind of the point. Forcing ordinary people into extraordinary situations is enough to give anyone a few loose screws.
If you want to argue that human beings being reduced to tang and are never shown to turn back is still being alive, feel free. Its an asinine argument, when its a state that's treated and portrayed no differently from death beyond a technicality, but whatever.
So the point is the anime ends with Shinji coming to terms with himself, and portrays this as him as a psychopath at the very end. Which goes back to the line that started this entire string of discussion:
It was a work that told people it was okay to be depressed, and it accepted the psychological state that said if you don't like the way the world works, then it's okay to just pick up a gun and attack someone.
Doesn't sound like an anime that is productive or beneficial for the audience at all, to me.
If you considering them losing their individuality as a form of death, that could be an interpretation, but simply saying the whole point of human instrumentality was to kill them and turn them into tang is the real asinine argument, it is treated and protrayed differently from death by seele and many characters in the show who choose to stay in it as enlightenment, not death, but then shinji chooses to keep his individuality because he personally feels losing it would be akin to death. And it's not necessarily the case that Shinji is psychotic or insane, it's not just the first person he sees or any girl he is strangling, but specifically asuka, who up until that point has caused him nothing but pain. Your arguments have been based on increasingly shallow interpretations that dismiss half the events that occur just to support your point. It's not a work that tells people it's okay to be depressed, quite the opposite. It doesn't say if you don't like the way the world works, then it's okay to just pick up a gun and attack someone, it says the opposite of that. It says that pain and depression are a part of life that you have to deal with, which has good and bad parts, it doesn't say that they're okay or that you should attack people you don't like.
On September 20 2012 04:41 Sentenal wrote: Are you guys trying to tell me that Shinji wasn't insane at the very end of EoE, and that strangling a girl when you first wake up who was laying right next to you is normal behavior? Maybe "normal" for someone who has lost their mind, but that is still psychotic behavior. He stops, but that doesn't erase the fact that the kid had more than a few screws loose at the ending, which means that the final result of EoE had Shinji "accepting who he is" and tryed to murder the first person he encounters. Was he driven insane by the time he apparently spent by himself? Maybe, but that still ends with the kid going insane, and doesn't change my point.
And unless more people were shown coming out of the LCL, I can write them off as dead. Are they technically dead? Not techncially, but saying "well, maybe they could come back" is pointless, since we aren't shown anyone else coming back, save Asuka, which means everyone else is still tang, and still for all intents and purposes, dead.
They aren't dead. The Human Instrumentality Project isn't about murdering everyone on the planet, that makes no sense. They all become LCL because human instrumentality is forcing everyone's minds and bodies to become one with each other. The LCL itself is (somehow) alive, with every human's mind merged into one mind. That doesn't mean that everyone is dead. And of course Shinji has a few screws loose, that's kind of the point. Forcing ordinary people into extraordinary situations is enough to give anyone a few loose screws.
If you want to argue that human beings being reduced to tang and are never shown to turn back is still being alive, feel free. Its an asinine argument, when its a state that's treated and portrayed no differently from death beyond a technicality, but whatever.
So the point is the anime ends with Shinji coming to terms with himself, and portrays this as him as a psychopath at the very end. Which goes back to the line that started this entire string of discussion:
It was a work that told people it was okay to be depressed, and it accepted the psychological state that said if you don't like the way the world works, then it's okay to just pick up a gun and attack someone.
Doesn't sound like an anime that is productive or beneficial for the audience at all, to me.
If you considering them losing their individuality as a form of death, that could be an interpretation, but simply saying the whole point of human instrumentality was to kill them and turn them into tang is the real asinine argument, it is treated and protrayed differently from death by seele and many characters in the show who choose to stay in it, but then shinji chooses to keep his individuality because he personally feels losing it would be akin to death. And it's not necessarily the case that Shinji is psychotic or insane, it's not just the first person he sees or any girl he is strangling, but specifically asuka, who up until that point has caused him nothing but pain. Your arguments have been based on increasingly shallow interpretations that dismiss half the events that occur just to support your point. It's not a work that tells people it's okay to be depressed, quite the opposite. It doesn't say if you don't like the way the world works, then it's okay to just pick up a gun and attack someone, it says the opposite of that. It says that pain and depression are a part of life, which has good and bad parts, that you have to deal with, it doesn't say that they're okay or that you should attack people you don't like.
LOL So, waking up and strangling another person first thing in the morning isn't psychotic behavior? It doesn't matter if she is a bitch or not (she is, don't get me wrong), but that doesn't make him any less insane.
Also amused that your entire post is just taking what I wrote, and just changed words around, as if that somehow makes you more right or something. Its like me saying something like "Your arguments have been based on increasingly pretentious interpretations that dismiss what actually occurs just to support your point." Of course, rephrasing something like this is doesn't actually prove anything or make any point, and is just trying to tell the other person "fuck you stop making points", which isn't constructive at all in a discussion. Evangelion ends (according to you) with Shinji accepting who is he, and coming to terms with himself. And then he wakes up, and immediately strangles the first person he sees. Pain and depression are part of life, just accept that and who you are, even if "who you are" is a person who snaps and strangles people you don't like while they are sleeping. And according to you, this is not psychotic behavior. lol
On September 20 2012 04:41 Sentenal wrote: Are you guys trying to tell me that Shinji wasn't insane at the very end of EoE, and that strangling a girl when you first wake up who was laying right next to you is normal behavior? Maybe "normal" for someone who has lost their mind, but that is still psychotic behavior. He stops, but that doesn't erase the fact that the kid had more than a few screws loose at the ending, which means that the final result of EoE had Shinji "accepting who he is" and tryed to murder the first person he encounters. Was he driven insane by the time he apparently spent by himself? Maybe, but that still ends with the kid going insane, and doesn't change my point.
And unless more people were shown coming out of the LCL, I can write them off as dead. Are they technically dead? Not techncially, but saying "well, maybe they could come back" is pointless, since we aren't shown anyone else coming back, save Asuka, which means everyone else is still tang, and still for all intents and purposes, dead.
They aren't dead. The Human Instrumentality Project isn't about murdering everyone on the planet, that makes no sense. They all become LCL because human instrumentality is forcing everyone's minds and bodies to become one with each other. The LCL itself is (somehow) alive, with every human's mind merged into one mind. That doesn't mean that everyone is dead. And of course Shinji has a few screws loose, that's kind of the point. Forcing ordinary people into extraordinary situations is enough to give anyone a few loose screws.
If you want to argue that human beings being reduced to tang and are never shown to turn back is still being alive, feel free. Its an asinine argument, when its a state that's treated and portrayed no differently from death beyond a technicality, but whatever.
So the point is the anime ends with Shinji coming to terms with himself, and portrays this as him as a psychopath at the very end. Which goes back to the line that started this entire string of discussion:
It was a work that told people it was okay to be depressed, and it accepted the psychological state that said if you don't like the way the world works, then it's okay to just pick up a gun and attack someone.
Doesn't sound like an anime that is productive or beneficial for the audience at all, to me.
If you considering them losing their individuality as a form of death, that could be an interpretation, but simply saying the whole point of human instrumentality was to kill them and turn them into tang is the real asinine argument, it is treated and protrayed differently from death by seele and many characters in the show who choose to stay in it, but then shinji chooses to keep his individuality because he personally feels losing it would be akin to death. And it's not necessarily the case that Shinji is psychotic or insane, it's not just the first person he sees or any girl he is strangling, but specifically asuka, who up until that point has caused him nothing but pain. Your arguments have been based on increasingly shallow interpretations that dismiss half the events that occur just to support your point. It's not a work that tells people it's okay to be depressed, quite the opposite. It doesn't say if you don't like the way the world works, then it's okay to just pick up a gun and attack someone, it says the opposite of that. It says that pain and depression are a part of life, which has good and bad parts, that you have to deal with, it doesn't say that they're okay or that you should attack people you don't like.
LOL So, waking up and strangling another person first thing in the morning isn't psychotic behavior? It doesn't matter if she is a bitch or not (she is, don't get me wrong), but that doesn't make him any less insane.
Also amused that your entire post is just taking what I wrote, and just changed words around, as if that somehow makes you more right or something. Its like me saying something like "Your arguments have been based on increasingly pretentious interpretations that dismiss what actually occurs just to support your point." Of course, rephrasing something like this is doesn't actually prove anything or make any point, and is just trying to tell the other person "fuck you stop making points", which isn't constructive at all in a discussion. Evangelion ends (according to you) with Shinji accepting who is he, and coming to terms with himself. And then he wakes up, and immediately strangles the first person he sees. Pain and depression are part of life, just accept that and who you are, even if "who you are" is a person who snaps and strangles people you don't like while they are sleeping. And according to you, this is not psychotic behavior. lol
I should have just listened to BrTarolg and not fed the troll. I'm just going to ignore you now just like you have purposefully ignored and willfuly misinterpreted and twisted all the points that anyone has made to suit your ends.
On September 20 2012 04:41 Sentenal wrote: Are you guys trying to tell me that Shinji wasn't insane at the very end of EoE, and that strangling a girl when you first wake up who was laying right next to you is normal behavior? Maybe "normal" for someone who has lost their mind, but that is still psychotic behavior. He stops, but that doesn't erase the fact that the kid had more than a few screws loose at the ending, which means that the final result of EoE had Shinji "accepting who he is" and tryed to murder the first person he encounters. Was he driven insane by the time he apparently spent by himself? Maybe, but that still ends with the kid going insane, and doesn't change my point.
And unless more people were shown coming out of the LCL, I can write them off as dead. Are they technically dead? Not techncially, but saying "well, maybe they could come back" is pointless, since we aren't shown anyone else coming back, save Asuka, which means everyone else is still tang, and still for all intents and purposes, dead.
They aren't dead. The Human Instrumentality Project isn't about murdering everyone on the planet, that makes no sense. They all become LCL because human instrumentality is forcing everyone's minds and bodies to become one with each other. The LCL itself is (somehow) alive, with every human's mind merged into one mind. That doesn't mean that everyone is dead. And of course Shinji has a few screws loose, that's kind of the point. Forcing ordinary people into extraordinary situations is enough to give anyone a few loose screws.
If you want to argue that human beings being reduced to tang and are never shown to turn back is still being alive, feel free. Its an asinine argument, when its a state that's treated and portrayed no differently from death beyond a technicality, but whatever.
So the point is the anime ends with Shinji coming to terms with himself, and portrays this as him as a psychopath at the very end. Which goes back to the line that started this entire string of discussion:
It was a work that told people it was okay to be depressed, and it accepted the psychological state that said if you don't like the way the world works, then it's okay to just pick up a gun and attack someone.
Doesn't sound like an anime that is productive or beneficial for the audience at all, to me.
If you considering them losing their individuality as a form of death, that could be an interpretation, but simply saying the whole point of human instrumentality was to kill them and turn them into tang is the real asinine argument, it is treated and protrayed differently from death by seele and many characters in the show who choose to stay in it, but then shinji chooses to keep his individuality because he personally feels losing it would be akin to death. And it's not necessarily the case that Shinji is psychotic or insane, it's not just the first person he sees or any girl he is strangling, but specifically asuka, who up until that point has caused him nothing but pain. Your arguments have been based on increasingly shallow interpretations that dismiss half the events that occur just to support your point. It's not a work that tells people it's okay to be depressed, quite the opposite. It doesn't say if you don't like the way the world works, then it's okay to just pick up a gun and attack someone, it says the opposite of that. It says that pain and depression are a part of life, which has good and bad parts, that you have to deal with, it doesn't say that they're okay or that you should attack people you don't like.
LOL So, waking up and strangling another person first thing in the morning isn't psychotic behavior? It doesn't matter if she is a bitch or not (she is, don't get me wrong), but that doesn't make him any less insane.
Also amused that your entire post is just taking what I wrote, and just changed words around, as if that somehow makes you more right or something. Its like me saying something like "Your arguments have been based on increasingly pretentious interpretations that dismiss what actually occurs just to support your point." Of course, rephrasing something like this is doesn't actually prove anything or make any point, and is just trying to tell the other person "fuck you stop making points", which isn't constructive at all in a discussion. Evangelion ends (according to you) with Shinji accepting who is he, and coming to terms with himself. And then he wakes up, and immediately strangles the first person he sees. Pain and depression are part of life, just accept that and who you are, even if "who you are" is a person who snaps and strangles people you don't like while they are sleeping. And according to you, this is not psychotic behavior. lol
I should have just listened to BrTarolg and not fed the troll. I'm just going to ignore you now just like you have purposefully ignored and willfuly misinterpreted and twisted all the points that anyone has made to suit your ends.
"I can't refute his point that strangling other people isn't psychotic, he must be trolling!!!"
It's ambiguous whether or not Shinji is mentally stable at the end of the movie, considering the events of the movie, how long he was isolated, the instant reaction to strangle Asuka, and the way the movie cuts off almost immediate afterwards.
However the fact that Shinji did stop and started crying into Asuka's breasts once he realizes that she's there hints that he has regained his mental stability.
Asuka, after touching his face (perhaps knowing how his mother did during instrumentality?) to show her soft feelings for him (it's actually been months and perhaps even years since this happened from the original episodes to the conclusion), comments as well on the situation:
Like I said earlier, Shinji does stop strangling her, which could be a sign that he hasn't completely lost his mind. But the fact that the situation even existed is proof enough that the guy is crazy. Its just, there are different levels of how "sick" a person can be, mentally.
EPT
).![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/tUAR8.jpg)
