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On December 16 2012 14:53 Sentenal wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2012 14:43 igotmyown wrote:
In lotr, if the eagles tried fly them into mount doom, the Nazgul would have probably would have swarmed them and taken the Ring. This isn't true. The Eagles are extremely powerful, and able to fight with Dragons. Not to mention there are only 9 Nazgul, and many more Eagles. And the winged beasts the Nazgul road on are nothing like actual Dragons. They could have flown Frodo there. But that wasn't what "God" intended for them to do.
The Eagles are very proud and would not readily subject themselves to this sort of thing. I think it is even discussed in the lore somewhere. You wouldn't subject an eagle to being ridden any easier than you would subject a dwarf to a tossing.
I thought the film as good. Not as good as the LoTR series, but they are very different books. The hobbit is about imagination, creatures, action, humor, whereas LoTR is more methodical, slower paced, much more "real" type of fantasy.
+ Show Spoiler + I thought the whole stone-giant scene was over the top, I would have liked some more dialoug after they leave Rivendale and Radagast was also a little tacky (it made me cringe how his face was covered in bird poo, I like to imagine a Wizard being a little above that.)
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On December 16 2012 15:05 Sentenal wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2012 15:05 Steveling wrote:On December 16 2012 14:53 Sentenal wrote:On December 16 2012 14:43 igotmyown wrote:
In lotr, if the eagles tried fly them into mount doom, the Nazgul would have probably would have swarmed them and taken the Ring. This isn't true. The Eagles are extremely powerful, and able to fight with Dragons. Not to mention there are only 9 Nazgul, and many more Eagles. And the winged beasts the Nazgul road on are nothing like actual Dragons. They could have flown Frodo there. But that wasn't what "God" intended for them to do. No, you are forgetting one thing. Like everything else, their species has grown weaker by now. Pit some lotr/hobbit heroes against their silmarillion counterparts and they will get their asses handed to them. Aragorn vs Turin, Elrod vs Fingolfin, Gwaihir vs Thorondor? Not even a contest. The old eagles were comparable to dragons yes, but the modern ones, meh. Not sure how you are forming that conclusion.
By reading tolkien's books?xD
A feeling that "everything was greater, more majestic, more whatever" is everywhere in his books.
Plus many characters has said so, in many many cases.
And wtf, did you just talked down Turin? That guy killed alone, the greatest dragon ever, Aragorn had trouble with some code b(sc2 reference) wraiths.
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Canada11349 Posts
It's the Butterfly Effect.
Because 2 of 3 occasions in the movies (so far) the eagles were summoned by Gandalf's butterfly, they seem to be at his beck and call. Such a relationship does not exist in either of the books. Others have described the Manwe-Eagle relationship and Eagle autonomy so I will not elaborate further.
The problem first began when for pacing reasons, they cut out Radagast from the Fellowship. With Gandalf telling Radagast to send out birds to keep an eye on things and also telling Radagast that he's going to Isengard, it is only natural that an Eagle was sent to Isengard as well. Without Radagast, Gandalf needed a little messenger to let the Eagles know that he needed help. When he has summoned eagles twice, it makes the Eagles seem like they are his pets.
In The Hobbit film, I think the film-makers were trying very hard to avoid deux ex machina. That is the butterfly is a callback to Fellowship to those that remembered and thus it is reasonable that the audience in the know expects the eagles to come even if they never read the books, but only watched the LotR movies.
However, the use of Eagles was largely to do with Tolkien's concept of euchatastrophe. That is when hope has been crushed and disaster is imminent, a sudden turn from catastrophe to victory is effected. This idea was influenced by Tolkien's belief that the Incarnation was the euchatastrophe of human history and the Resurrection was the euchatastrophe of the Incarnation.
Within actual The Hobbit book, the eagles simply hate goblins and had noticed wargs and goblins gathering and thus went out to investigate and disrupt them as they could. I guess Jackson felt this could not be properly explained from the perspective of the Company and that the audience would find the inexplicable appearence of the Eagles dissatisfying?
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Just saw this movie, it was very boring they should have made 1 movie of like 4 hours and make it good instead of 3 boring movies of 3 hours
i loved the book and the anime they made out of it tho
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Yeah, battles and characters were fucktons more powerful back in the day. There were battles where multile balrogs assaulted cities and stuff.
Either that, or as Gandalf alludes to, stories get embellished over time...
A battalion of Orcs get remembered as a battalion of Uruks and Trolls which eventually gets turned into Dragons. I realize this is technically wrong, but maybe Tolikein was poking fun at this fact of human nature when he wrote all this stuff.
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why dont they just fly their with the eagles instead of walking?
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Canada11349 Posts
On December 16 2012 15:15 askmc70 wrote:
why dont they just fly their with the eagles instead of walking?
Once they are rescued you mean? The Eagles aren't beasts of burden and are only willing to fly them so far. The Eagles were also cautious about flying too close to the woodsmen living on the edge of Mirkwood because it's too dangerous. Quite often the Eagles are stealing sheep to eat and the woodsmen shoot arrows at them.
On December 16 2012 15:05 Sentenal wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2012 15:05 Steveling wrote:On December 16 2012 14:53 Sentenal wrote:On December 16 2012 14:43 igotmyown wrote:
In lotr, if the eagles tried fly them into mount doom, the Nazgul would have probably would have swarmed them and taken the Ring. This isn't true. The Eagles are extremely powerful, and able to fight with Dragons. Not to mention there are only 9 Nazgul, and many more Eagles. And the winged beasts the Nazgul road on are nothing like actual Dragons. They could have flown Frodo there. But that wasn't what "God" intended for them to do. No, you are forgetting one thing. Like everything else, their species has grown weaker by now. Pit some lotr/hobbit heroes against their silmarillion counterparts and they will get their asses handed to them. Aragorn vs Turin, Elrod vs Fingolfin, Gwaihir vs Thorondor? Not even a contest. The old eagles were comparable to dragons yes, but the modern ones, meh. Not sure how you are forming that conclusion.
It's a very common theme in Tolkien's writing. Feanor is the greatest of Elves and all else is lesser after. The elves can no longer match the craft of old nor the dwarves match the works of their ancestors. Men make use of strange works such as the Palantir, but have no ability to make new ones and live on the edge of ruins of mighty empires and cities.
The elves are passing and fading and eventually only the men will be left, the men live shorter, and rejoice in war not in art and healing (Faramir's lament) etc, etc.
This is a very foreign view to the modernist who only sees the inevitable march of progress (only sometimes deflated after a world war and nuclear fall out.) But it is a view that would be very familiar to a medieval person living with a memory of the former Roman empire.
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On December 16 2012 15:19 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2012 15:15 askmc70 wrote:
why dont they just fly their with the eagles instead of walking? Once they are rescued you mean? The Eagles aren't beasts of burden and are only willing to fly them so far. The Eagles were also cautious about flying too close to the woodsmen living on the edge of Mirkwood because it's too dangerous. Quite often the Eagles are stealing sheep to eat and the woodsmen shoot arrows at them. Show nested quote +On December 16 2012 15:05 Sentenal wrote:On December 16 2012 15:05 Steveling wrote:On December 16 2012 14:53 Sentenal wrote:On December 16 2012 14:43 igotmyown wrote:
In lotr, if the eagles tried fly them into mount doom, the Nazgul would have probably would have swarmed them and taken the Ring. lves This isn't true. The Eagles are extremely powerful, and able to fight with Dragons. Not to mention there are only 9 Nazgul, and many more Eagles. And the winged beasts the Nazgul road on are nothing like actual Dragons. They could have flown Frodo there. But that wasn't what "God" intended for them to do. No, you are forgetting one thing. Like everything else, their species has grown weaker by now. Pit some lotr/hobbit heroes against their silmarillion counterparts and they will get their asses handed to them. Aragorn vs Turin, Elrod vs Fingolfin, Gwaihir vs Thorondor? Not even a contest. The old eagles were comparable to dragons yes, but the modern ones, meh. Not sure how you are forming that conclusion. It's a very common theme in Tolkien's writing. Feanor is the greatest of Elves and all else is lesser after. The elves can no longer match the craft of old nor the dwarves match the works of their ancestors. Men make use of strange works such as the Palantir, but have no ability to make new ones and live on the edge of ruins of mighty empires and cities. The elves are passing and fading and eventually only the men will be left, etc, etc.
Yes, also I believe Tolkein had it in his mind that he was writing the "forgotten history" of our world today. Middle Earth somewhat resembles Eurasia if you can imagine it. So it makes sense that things would be becoming more tame as time drew closer to the present. Also, wasn't there much more, "divine interaction" going on in the early days of the Elves?
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On December 16 2012 15:11 Steveling wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2012 15:05 Sentenal wrote:On December 16 2012 15:05 Steveling wrote:On December 16 2012 14:53 Sentenal wrote:On December 16 2012 14:43 igotmyown wrote:
In lotr, if the eagles tried fly them into mount doom, the Nazgul would have probably would have swarmed them and taken the Ring. This isn't true. The Eagles are extremely powerful, and able to fight with Dragons. Not to mention there are only 9 Nazgul, and many more Eagles. And the winged beasts the Nazgul road on are nothing like actual Dragons. They could have flown Frodo there. But that wasn't what "God" intended for them to do. No, you are forgetting one thing. Like everything else, their species has grown weaker by now. Pit some lotr/hobbit heroes against their silmarillion counterparts and they will get their asses handed to them. Aragorn vs Turin, Elrod vs Fingolfin, Gwaihir vs Thorondor? Not even a contest. The old eagles were comparable to dragons yes, but the modern ones, meh. Not sure how you are forming that conclusion. By reading tolkien's books?xD A feeling that "everything was greater, more majestic, more whatever" is everywhere in his books. Plus many characters has said so, in many many cases. And wtf, did you just talked down Turin? That guy killed alone, the greatest dragon ever, Aragorn had trouble with some code b(sc2 reference) wraiths.
No, I wasn't talking down Turin, although Ancalagon was more powerful than Glaurung, who didn't have wings. I've read the Simarillion as well. I'm asking how you came to the conclusion that the Eagles are alot weaker in the 3rd Age than they were in the 1st Age.
In LotR, we get a single Balrog, and its made out to be an almost unstoppable monster. Smaug, a single dragon, was capable of laying waste to entire cities, and Gandalf believed he was too dangerous to be left alive. In the 1st Age, we had Morgoth running around with entire legions of Balrogs and entire flights of Dragons. Of course things were grander then, I'm not disputing that. But was that single Balrog we saw in LotR "weaker" than those in the 1st Age? He might have been no Gothmog, but that didn't make him a slouch. Smaug may have been no Ancalagon or Glaurung, but that doesn't make Smaug weak compared to an average 1st Age Dragon. There is no reason to assume the "good" foil to Dragons (the Eagles) would have deteriorated in power, especially when they are divine in nature.
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Definitely thought the movie wasnt its best, but I didn't dislike it either.
I didn't like the inclusion of Radagast, his demeanor nor the tone of the movie (more silly than smartly written).
Also wish they distinguished the dwarves a bit more, but I'm guessing three more movies will help with that.
My friend says we weren't suppose to see Solomon yet, but I thought we did meet him so early on?
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Just saw this today, have to say I was very disappointed. VERY slow in some parts, and a couple others didn't even make sense. The worst part though was the frivolous attempts at humor, like mucus in food, and resorting to a character giving some witty quip before he falls over and dies. I watch LOTR films because I want an epic adventure story, and a witty quip before death really kills that mood fast.
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On December 16 2012 14:53 Sentenal wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2012 14:43 igotmyown wrote:
In lotr, if the eagles tried fly them into mount doom, the Nazgul would have probably would have swarmed them and taken the Ring. This isn't true. The Eagles are extremely powerful, and able to fight with Dragons. Not to mention there are only 9 Nazgul, and many more Eagles. And the winged beasts the Nazgul road on are nothing like actual Dragons. They could have flown Frodo there. But that wasn't what "God" intended for them to do.
"They would shoot at us with their great bows of yew... for they think we were after their sheep.... No! we are glad to cheat the goblins of their sport, and glad to repay the thanks to you,(Gandalf had at one time healed a arrow wound on the lord of the eagles.) but we will not risk ourselves for dwarves in the southward plain."
Yeah, some godlike dragon tier eagles they were, at least in the Hobbit. Stealing sheep and running away from archers.
So eagles could take out Nazgul, but they're afraid of the bows of generic pioneers. I think you're underselling Nazgul, who killed the last king of Gondor.
And why would dragon tier creatures care about Goblins? Balrogs and Dragons certainly didn't give a shit about them.
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On December 16 2012 15:46 igotmyown wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2012 14:53 Sentenal wrote:On December 16 2012 14:43 igotmyown wrote:
In lotr, if the eagles tried fly them into mount doom, the Nazgul would have probably would have swarmed them and taken the Ring. This isn't true. The Eagles are extremely powerful, and able to fight with Dragons. Not to mention there are only 9 Nazgul, and many more Eagles. And the winged beasts the Nazgul road on are nothing like actual Dragons. They could have flown Frodo there. But that wasn't what "God" intended for them to do. "They would shoot at us with their great bows of yew... for they think we were after their sheep.... No! we are glad to cheat the goblins of their sport, and glad to repay the thanks to you,(Gandalf had at one time healed a arrow wound on the lord of the eagles.) but we will not risk ourselves for dwarves in the southward plain." Yeah, some godlike dragon killing eagles they were, at least in the Hobbit. Stealing sheep and running away from archers. So eagles could take out Nazgul, but they're afraid of the bows of generic pioneers.
Arrows hurt, whats your point? They did fight Dragons in the Silmarillion. They are divine in nature. And they DID take out Nazgul flying on Winged Beasts, or did you miss that part in RotK?
Balrogs and Dragons wouldn't give a shit about Goblins because they are essentially on the same side. Eagles are not.
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Canada11349 Posts
I don't even know that they 'took out' the Nazgul- in the book that is. They swooped down towards the Nazgul, but the Dark Tower recalled them before an aerial battle actually began.
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Are you asserting that Nazgul can't even do as much damage as an arrow?
And if you're going by the movie, the Nazgul broke Gandalf the White's staff.
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On December 16 2012 13:11 Chewbacca. wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2012 12:50 Slow Motion wrote:
Thorin is a beast. Elves are bitches. You got that entirely backwards my friend. + Show Spoiler +
Thorin cries about the elves all movie long because they arrive to a battle a little late, while throughout the whole movie they do nothing but help him --let him keep ancient elvish weapons, decipher his map, let them stay in Rivendell.
Thorin finally gets him moment to prove that he isn't a little bitch...and what happens? He gets his ass kicked by an orc in like 3 seconds only to be saved by a little hobbit.
Not only this but he is a prick too--doubts Bilbo and goes on about how he doesn't belong with them, doesn't trust Gandalf about the elves, doesn't listen to Gandalf's plan about waiting for him in the Moutain...
The only cool thing that Thorin does is sing the Misty Mountain song at the beginning of the movie.
Yo all I saw in that movie is + Show Spoiler +elves bitching about how dangerous shit is and Thorin going beast-mode in order to get his people a home. They basically had to sneak out of Rivendale cause Elrond tattled to Saruman like a little bitch. And Thorin wasn't mad about the elves being late he was mad that they didn't help at all once they got there. The dwarves were completely on their own and only had Thorin to keep their shit together. And plus Thorin had the balls to stand up to a dude called Asok the Defiler. Yeah he got beat but you know any elf would have just pissed their pants looking at Asok. And who wouldn't doubt Bilbo except for people who know what's gonna happen later. They literally took some random civilian out of his house and with them when Bilbo didn't even want to be there. The only cool elf is Galadriel but if you think about it all she does is stare at people, read their minds, and telepathically talk to them in her admittedly hot husky voice.
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On December 15 2012 18:39 Chocobo wrote:
Just thought I'd add my comments...
1) I wanted to love 48fps... and for the most part, I did. 90% of the time it looks great... but during quick cuts or fast hand motions, it looked really choppy and weird, like the film is being fast-forwarded. It was such a huge distraction for me that I can't recommend 48fps to anyone, I kept noticing the filmmaking instead of the film.
2) The added backstory about Erebor was an amazingly good idea and worked perfectly to help the audience really understand why this quest matters so much to the dwarves.
3) I wish they didn't have to make the bad guys so obviously monstrous looking. The horrible faces, the foul skin, and the immense size of the trolls in particular was really overdoing it.
4) The idea of including other bits of the LOTR story was a good one, but the execution was not. Radagast's section of the movie was bad, and the stone giant part of the movie was really really bad. If I see one more character on the verge of falling to their death, I'm going to be sick. Peter Jackson, stop using that please... it was bad enough when Frodo did it at the climax of ROTK.
5) Making Azog an important character in the story was an interesting way to play it... it worked OK, I don't mind it.
6) I think they really blew it, making this a constant rollercoaster of life-or-death nonstop action. There's supposed to be no danger at all until the trolls... and no serious danger until the goblin cave. The adventurers (esp. Bilbo) get used to a rising level of danger. But in the movie, everyone is a split-second from death almost the entire time. This isn't a Pierce Brosnan Bond movie.
7) On the positive side, they did a lot of things right. Everything that stuck close to the book's story in spirit was done really well on the screen. The adaption from the book to the screen was excellent... I just wish they had done more of that, and less of inventing new scenes.
8) I really liked that the tone of the movie is light-hearted compared to LOTR... just the way that the book is compared to the LOTR books. But it went too far... the goblin-king delivering jokes as he died was just stupid.
Overall the movie was fairly enjoyable, but the invented scenes and unending action really drag down what could have been a truly great movie.
Actually the three parts make a lot of sense I was thinking about this .
Beginning at shire / goblins and gollum ----> beginning of mirkwood -----> dale/Erebor
I felt like those were the three big blocks of the hobbit for sure.
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On December 16 2012 15:52 igotmyown wrote:
Are you asserting that Nazgul can't even do as much damage as an arrow?
And if you're going by the movie, the Nazgul broke Gandalf the White's staff.
No? Look, in the Hobbit, they didn't want to go near the woodsmen, because getting shot by arrows for a cause they didn't care for wasn't something they intended to do. But later on in the same book they come and route and entire army of Goblins and save the day. Because they finally had an intention to do something. Then in RotK they have the intention to come in against the Nazgul. The fact that they didn't want to go get pricked by woodsmen doesn't mean that woodsmen are more powerful than an army of Goblins/Orcs or Nazgul, it just means they didn't care to put themselves in that situation, and they did care to put themselves into others.
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Saw the movie today as well. Wasn't too sure what to think of it honestly! There were some parts I liked but it just felt a little weird. I wasn't left very satisfied...but I guess that's why there's going to be a next movie?
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On December 16 2012 15:59 Sentenal wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2012 15:52 igotmyown wrote:
Are you asserting that Nazgul can't even do as much damage as an arrow?
And if you're going by the movie, the Nazgul broke Gandalf the White's staff. No? Look, in the Hobbit, they didn't want to go near the woodsmen, because getting shot by arrows for a cause they didn't care for wasn't something they intended to do. But later on in the same book they come and route and entire army of Goblins and save the day. Because they finally had an intention to do something. Then in RotK they have the intention to come in against the Nazgul. The fact that they didn't want to go get pricked by woodsmen doesn't mean that woodsmen are more powerful than an army of Goblins/Orcs or Nazgul, it just means they didn't care to put themselves in that situation, and they did care to put themselves into others.
They didn't route the goblins. The good armies' defense was dependent on funneling the goblins in the valley between their positions, and it wouldn't work if the goblins climbed the mountain and attacked their positions from above. The eagles harassed/pulled the goblins climbing over them off the mountain, and according to the book they were still losing. Beorn turned the tide when he single handedly waded through the armies and crushed the elite goblins.
Before Tolkien revisionist history, eagles were really big birds. Just like birds you could shoot them, and they could carry much smaller things. The books never indicate in speech or actions any particularly demigodlike characteristics. I mean you can reinterpret why the eagles said what they said, but in the context of the book(s), they're not dragon tier, they're just a relatively powerful middle earth race.
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