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SPOILER WARNING If you only watch the show, this thread will spoil you of future events in HBO's Game of Thrones. Thread contains discussion of all books of the series A Song of Ice and Fire Click Here for the spoiler-free thread. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
It's quite obvious that the show is at its worst when they don't follow the books at all (theon rescue mission is a good example). This season so far is just mediocre for GoT (it's still better than 90% of what is on TV ofc) It's not about changes, but how they execute these changes. | ||
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Conti
Germany2516 Posts
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On May 09 2015 09:20 Conti wrote: Oh c'mon. For every Theon rescue mission (dear god that one was just awful) you have an awesomely written scene with Tywin that was never in the books. You have to intentionally ignore a ton of really good, really well written scenes that have not been in the books if you want to say that everything original they do is bad. Well with these Tywin scenes they simply took the character and let him interact in logical ways ("in character" ways) with other people. That's original too ofc, but it's not really new and totally made up concerning the storyline. I didn't really like the Arya and Tywin scenes though, they were out of character, even if they both acted very well (so out of context the scene itself was great, but you shouldn't value scenes in a vacuum imo) But this season in particular they completely make up storylines and every single one of them so far makes very little sense to me. Then you have that sandsnake scene which was total cringe as well. So yeah, season 5 is a big disappointment for me and that's not cause changes are necesserily bad (even if i think they typically are worse, they still can be good in their own right), it's just that even if you look at show only i think they are poorly thought out and sometimes even badly executed (barriston selmy's death for example and the fight before) So i probably would give the season at best a 6-7/10 so far | ||
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RenSC2
United States1094 Posts
One possibility: Maybe he's heard that Jon Snow is the leader of the Night's Watch now. LF might believe that Jon will rally an army to save Sansa whereas he wouldn't have acted without her presence. Snow's help would give Stannis a powerful enough force to defeat the Boltons. This would be good for LF because he thinks the Boltons are too dangerous even as allies... but has them temporarily placated by handing them Sansa (even though that gift could result in their defeat). After defeating the Boltons, a Snow-Stannis alliance sweeps down from the north and defeats the Lannisters/Tyrells who may already be weakened by Dorne. Unlike when LF didn't support Stannis's claim earlier in the series, LF now doesn't mind Stannis on the throne because Stannis has very little popular support left. So, Stannis would be a completely hamstrung king just waiting to be deposed and that's exactly what LF wants. From here, LF marries Sansa thus sealing an alliance between the Vale which he controls and the North under the control of Snow, who he sees as a foolish but honorable boy. Then, all he needs to do is have the King do something to piss off Snow and LF would then have another uprising with the Vale and the North backed by the Merchant class. After all the wars, LF declares that there should no longer be a king by blood, but instead one by ability and with the backing of the merchant class, LF takes charge of the continent of Westeros. Master plan. Of course, it'll all go to crap when Snow gets stabbed (by Edd in episode 10, that's my bet) and when Daenerys shows up. | ||
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RenSC2
United States1094 Posts
On May 09 2015 09:20 Conti wrote: Oh c'mon. For every Theon rescue mission (dear god that one was just awful) you have an awesomely written scene with Tywin that was never in the books. You have to intentionally ignore a ton of really good, really well written scenes that have not been in the books if you want to say that everything original they do is bad. I would agree that a lot of the emotional dialog scenes that are added to the show are quite good. However, I think almost all of the plot changes are quite bad. Some are by necessity to streamline it for TV, but some seem like unforced errors. | ||
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Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
On May 09 2015 09:03 scudst0rm wrote: Most book readers will agree with this, but I wonder just how much is bias from having read the books first. I'd love to see a survey of show only viewers ranking each scene and compare that to how much of a deviation it is from the book. If only there was a way to filter out book readers from taking the survey... I watched the first couple seasons before reading the books. I started the series pretty late, constantly heard about the show (and spoilers about the show/books) from friends who were avid fans. I watched seasons 1-3 before reading the books, and then started reading the books as season 4 came out. The books are, for the most part, much better than the changes we're seeing here in seasons 4 and 5. A lot of the changes (and even some of the execution of things that haven't been changed) make no sense whatsoever. | ||
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Lylat
France8575 Posts
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-Archangel-
Croatia7457 Posts
On May 09 2015 09:20 Conti wrote: Oh c'mon. For every Theon rescue mission (dear god that one was just awful) you have an awesomely written scene with Tywin that was never in the books. You have to intentionally ignore a ton of really good, really well written scenes that have not been in the books if you want to say that everything original they do is bad. Yes, the Tywin scenes were good but they are not nearly enough to cover for all the other crap they did. And than they skipped so many battles that were not shows in books but would have looked cool on the screen. | ||
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Gullis
Sweden740 Posts
In the book I remember that after I came to the part where it turned out that he wasn't really killed, the way that "Mance" acted when he got burned made sense. In the show he acted as the real Mance would act and they didn't leave any room for him to actually be the lord of bones . Additionally with how things are different at Winterfell they maybe decided to really kill him off? | ||
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Conti
Germany2516 Posts
On May 09 2015 19:12 -Archangel- wrote: Yes, the Tywin scenes were good but they are not nearly enough to cover for all the other crap they did. And than they skipped so many battles that were not shows in books but would have looked cool on the screen. Now the battles are a simple issue of money and nothing else. GoT already is one of the most expensive shows ever, and even they couldn't afford to do most of the battles. I agree that it sucks, but you really can't blame them for that. Same with the crowds in King's Landing, which are always an order of magnitude smaller than they should be. It really bugs me, but there's nothing to be done about it. | ||
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Spaylz
Japan1743 Posts
On May 09 2015 19:21 Gullis wrote: I maybe a little late with this but does anyone else feel like they really killed off the Mance Rayder in the series? In the book I remember that after I came to the part where it turned out that he wasn't really killed, the way that "Mance" acted when he got burned made sense. In the show he acted as the real Mance would act and they didn't leave any room for him to actually be the lord of bones . Additionally with how things are different at Winterfell they maybe decided to really kill him off? It's anyone's guess at this point. We have no idea how the plot line in Winterfell will unfold, which is both good and bad. About Mance... seeing as they did not introduce the Lord of Bones, I'm inclined to believe he actually is dead. There was some camera play between him and Tormund while he was burning, but I am reluctant to believe they would do the switch with Tormund instead of the Lord of Bones. At least I hope not, that would be a terrible decision. About the show in general... it's true that they've made some really amazing off-book scenes. When you look back, most of them involve Tywin. Tywin really is a character they absolutely nailed. I'm mostly thinking about the not-from-books scene he had with Jaime in the tent, where we had Tywin lecture him while carving up a stag. That was great stuff. I believe the "I will be your champion" scene between Oberyn and Tyrion is also not directly from the books, right? I recall him telling him the story of Cersei showing him off as a monster right when Oberyn arrived to King's Landing at the end of ACOK, but maybe he also had another speech when he decided to be Tyrion's champion. I don't remember it though. In any case, that scene on GoT was brilliant. Another really good scene was the one between Robert and Cersei, where they openly discuss their hatred for one another. However, as the seasons go forward, the off-book scenes are degrading in quality. We keep talking about the shirtless Ramsay scene, and for good reasons, it was seriously, horribly, tremendously awful. The entirely made-up romance between Missandei and Grey Worm is shaping up to be pretty bad as well. I also felt that Locke's story arc was rather pointless, because they killed him off for apparently no reason when he was such a great actor and a potentially interesting character. Another pet peeve of mine is the way they are stripping (often literally) Melisandre of her character. She's not just some religious whore who gets naked any chance she gets, she's much more complicated and mysterious. I feel like Melisandre on the show is such a well of untapped supernatural mysteries and overall eeriness that it's a shame to see her reduced to D&D's go-to woman to meet their boob quota. Anyway... I share the opinion of several posters here. The show has drastically gone down in quality from season 1, and it isn't just a coincidence that it's happening right when they're starting to run out of source material. They were doing a great job at the beginning with adding extra off-book scenes that played into the books and added character development (again, thinking back to the Robert & Cersei scene from S1), but I'm starting to think it was made easier by the fact that they had a clear outline going forward thanks to the books. It is no longer the case, so their off-book scenes are starting to be way off in some cases. | ||
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
 if they're doing the swap, it's almost certainly with Tormund. | ||
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Conti
Germany2516 Posts
On May 09 2015 20:22 Spaylz wrote: I believe the "I will be your champion" scene between Oberyn and Tyrion is also not directly from the books, right? I recall him telling him the story of Cersei showing him off as a monster right when Oberyn arrived to King's Landing at the end of ACOK, but maybe he also had another speech when he decided to be Tyrion's champion. I don't remember it though. In any case, that scene on GoT was brilliant. Another really good scene was the one between Robert and Cersei, where they openly discuss their hatred for one another. Honestly, that has been one of the best scene of the entire show for me, if not the very best. I think there was a similar speech in the books, but it had none of the same impact and a totally different tone, so I would argue that this is very much show-only. You do have a point, though, that the best non-book scenes were somewhat related to things happening in the books, whereas the worst non-book scenes were things that were completely new. I'm still not nearly as critical about those, though. Sure, we've had a few cringeworthy ones, but only a few so far, whereas most of them are "just okay" at worst. The books will always be better, but that's just the very nature of the beast: On the one hand you have one guy writing on the books for decades(!), on the other you have a gazillion people that have to create 10 hours of television every single year without fault. Demanding that the latter be as good as the former is quite naive, to say the least, and I dare say that all things considered, we got about the best show we could have gotten. And since the plot will deviate further and further from the (unwritten) books, the GoT writers will have to take over, and no matter how good they are, they're not GRRM. So don't expect GRRM quality writing. Expect "good television" writing, which is certainly not perfect all the time. | ||
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Irrelevant Label
United States596 Posts
On May 09 2015 19:03 Lylat wrote: Sooo Barristan is dead, does that mean that he has no role to play in the books ? Or did the show diverge completely from the books ? It means that they have diverged. He has already done important things in the books that the show won't have now. There have been great show additions. The first promising taste of a show-invented scene was that conversation between Cersei and Robert back in s1. The show went on to do good things with s2 Arya-Tywin, s1-3 Varys-LF interactions, everything non-book about Oberyn, and everything Jaime-Bronn until the most recent bits for a few that stand out off the top of my head. That said, I don't think the good additions have done much of a job making up for poorer changes since circa late s2. The negative impact of changes to plot piles up while new ones are becoming more frequent. The good additions/changes are becoming less frequent since s3 and do not enjoy a cumulative boosting effect. The only change that probably ever enjoyed any plot boosting impact was s2 Arya-Tywin. The rest is exposition or one scene flash-in-the-pan goodness. | ||
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Spaylz
Japan1743 Posts
Euron would have been a massive fan favourite, even among the Unsullied. Don't get me wrong, Doran is an excellent character, but he probably shines more in the book media due to largely being about bidding his time to exact his revenge. To fully appreciate his character, you have to really know the full extent of the story of Dorne, the feud between the Martells and the Lannisters, and so on. It just loses a lot of its taste without solid story background. I don't know. The more I think about it, the more I feel like they made the wrong choice with Dorne. They should have gone with the Iron Islands; it would have also been an excellent way to give Asha/Yara some good development and screen time, as opposed to the non sense we had in S4. It even follows up perfectly on what we saw of Balon in S2, on how the Iron Islanders have been screwing up the North big time, and everything else. The guy was a major pain in the ass to everyone in S2-S3, was named by Stannis to die with the leeches bit, and is supposed to be dead by now. Now, who knows how they'll even announce his death if at all. It might be awkward as hell. Anyway... I really don't know. I am really curious to know the reasons behind their choice. | ||
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-Archangel-
Croatia7457 Posts
On May 10 2015 01:55 Irrelevant Label wrote: It means that they have diverged. He has already done important things in the books that the show won't have now. There have been great show additions. The first promising taste of a show-invented scene was that conversation between Cersei and Robert back in s1. The show went on to do good things with s2 Arya-Tywin, s1-3 Varys-LF interactions, everything non-book about Oberyn, and everything Jaime-Bronn until the most recent bits for a few that stand out off the top of my head. That said, I don't think the good additions have done much of a job making up for poorer changes since circa late s2. The negative impact of changes to plot piles up and new ones are becoming more frequent. The good additions/changes are becoming less frequent since s3 and do not enjoy a cumulative boosting effect. The only change that probably ever enjoyed any plot boosting impact was probably s2 Arya-Tywin. The rest is exposition or one scene flash-in-the-pan goodness. I totally agree with this. I just hope in some future some does this series again properly or does a movie trilogy out of it (or more than 3 movies). | ||
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SKC
Brazil18828 Posts
Also who knows who will be important later on, they have a better idea of where everything is going than we do. | ||
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Skilledblob
Germany3392 Posts
On May 09 2015 19:03 Lylat wrote: Sooo Barristan is dead, does that mean that he has no role to play in the books ? Or did the show diverge completely from the books ? barristan is dead when they say he is and not on a cliffhanger  | ||
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Spaylz
Japan1743 Posts
On May 10 2015 03:21 Skilledblob wrote: barristan is dead when they say he is and not on a cliffhanger How many times do we need to say it? He is shown dead as a door knob on the preview. Dude's gone. | ||
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karazax
United States3737 Posts
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