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SPOILER WARNING If you only watch the show, this thread will spoil you of future events in HBO's Game of Thrones. Thread contains discussion of all books of the series A Song of Ice and FireClick Here for the spoiler-free thread. |
On May 08 2015 22:34 Spaylz wrote:Video of D&D discussing Barristan's deathI don't know if they're being petty or messing around, but that bit angers me. I think Barristan still had a role to play, and the actor cared enough to argue his point and use legitimate book material to back up his claim. That seems like a total waste, and a death added just for shock value.
So the actor (who's assumably read the books) playing Barristan sent a letter explaining why it was a bad idea to kill off Selmy assumably along the lines of "He didn't die there in the books, you cunts, and now you're killing him off like some pansy? You do realise how much shit you're going to get from people for this, right?", which made D&D want to kill the character even more.
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On May 08 2015 22:54 sumsaR wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2015 22:34 Spaylz wrote:Video of D&D discussing Barristan's deathI don't know if they're being petty or messing around, but that bit angers me. I think Barristan still had a role to play, and the actor cared enough to argue his point and use legitimate book material to back up his claim. That seems like a total waste, and a death added just for shock value. So the actor (who's assumably read the books) playing Barristan sent a letter explaining why it was a bad idea to kill off Selmy assumably along the lines of "He didn't die there in the books, you cunts, and now you're killing him off like some pansy? You do realise how much shit you're going to get from people for this, right?", which made D&D want to kill the character even more.
Basically.
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Meh the "then we wanted to kill him even more" is obviously a joke.
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The biggest problem for me isn't that they change things from the books. It's that they change things, then try to make major events from the books happen as if they didn't change a thing.
It makes no sense for Littlefinger to marry Sansa to Ramsay. Especially if his plan is to have Stannis defeat the Boltons. If that's his plan, give Sansa to Stannis now, and watch all the North rally around him to throw down the Boltons. That's ignoring the fact that Stannis is unlikely to keep Littlefinger in power in a world where he sits the iron throne. After all if he wanted Stannis in power he could have not betrayed Ned and helped him put Stannis in power.
But fake Arya had a marriage to Ramsay and they don't like Sansa's book story line so they are trying to combine the two even though it makes no sense. Likewise it makes no sense that Jaime would go to rescue Myrcella himself. He says he can't send an army or it would start a war, but if the Martells won't just give Myrcella back willingly, then it doesn't matter how he forcibly removes her from Dorne. Going when he has one arm, is hated and highly recognizable is something he can't even explain to Bronn in the show. They didn't like the Dorne story line, or the Riverlands story line, couldn't or didn't want to cast the actors needed for those book story lines, and decided to mash them together into their own fan fiction and try to make it end up ultimately in the same spot as the books even if that makes no sense. There are dozens of examples of this and it's just getting worse this season. Randomly killing off Barristan by some faceless knife wielding thugs is just the latest example.
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The biggest reasons for most of these changes is the need to greatly reduce the number of new characters. You may not like the changes, but they absolutely had to be done, and they knew that they had to be done eventually from the very beginning. And since GRRM isn't exactly stopping with expanding his universe (and how the hell is he going to finish in just 7 books when he keeps introducing whole new sets of characters and places and fleshes them out thoroughly every damn book?), they're forced to combine a bunch of characters and toss well known characters into the few new places/sets they can't just skip.
And, frankly, Barristan is not an inherently important character. You need to stop thinking in terms of "But he still has to do X!". The show has stopped being a 1:1 adaption of the books quite some seasons ago, just because X is going to happen in the books there is absolutely no guarantee that it will happen in the show. So any argument along the lines of "They should not have done that because now X can't happen" is pretty much invalid.
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On May 09 2015 00:43 karazax wrote:
The biggest problem for me isn't that they change things from the books. It's that they change things, then try to make major events from the books happen as if they didn't change a thing.
It makes no sense for Littlefinger to marry Sansa to Ramsay. Especially if his plan is to have Stannis defeat the Boltons. If that's his plan, give Sansa to Stannis now, and watch all the North rally around him to throw down the Boltons. That's ignoring the fact that Stannis is unlikely to keep Littlefinger in power in a world where he sits the iron throne. After all if he wanted Stannis in power he could have not betrayed Ned and helped him put Stannis in power.
But fake Arya had a marriage to Ramsay and they don't like Sansa's book story line so they are trying to combine the two even though it makes no sense. Likewise it makes no sense that Jaime would go to rescue Myrcella himself. He says he can't send an army or it would start a war, but if the Martells won't just give Myrcella back willingly, then it doesn't matter how he forcibly removes her from Dorne. Going when he has one arm, is hated and highly recognizable is something he can't even explain to Bronn in the show. They didn't like the Dorne story line, or the Riverlands story line, couldn't or didn't want to cast the actors needed for those book story lines, and decided to mash them together into their own fan fiction and try to make it end up ultimately in the same spot as the books even if that makes no sense. There are dozens of examples of this and it's just getting worse this season. Randomly killing off Barristan by some faceless knife wielding thugs is just the latest example.
What if Stannis fails to take Winterfell? If he had given Sansa to Stannis she'd end up right where she is now. This way he plays a double-game with Stannis and the Boltons.
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Making changes is necessary. We can argue which ones are necessary and which ones aren't, but reducing the size of the cast is a very reasonable reason to make changes. Just make changes that make sense. Many of their story lines are just bad, and would be bad even if there weren't any books to compare them to.
Considering their need to significantly trim the cast I question why they even bothered with Dorne. If they are going to rewrite it's whole story line, what's the point?
The problem D&D have is that they think the story is about the destination, but GRRM's outlook on writing is that the journey is what makes a story good. He knows how the story is going to end, what takes him so long to write is making an entertaining journey to that end point. D&D want to hit the highlights of the book events, but change all the circumstances so those highlights often lack logical coherence, motivation or significance. Saying they got all the same places as the book is like saying hitchhiking from one side of the country to the other is the same experience as flying first class from one side of the country to the other, because you both get to the same destination.
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On May 09 2015 02:23 jxx wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2015 00:43 karazax wrote:
The biggest problem for me isn't that they change things from the books. It's that they change things, then try to make major events from the books happen as if they didn't change a thing.
It makes no sense for Littlefinger to marry Sansa to Ramsay. Especially if his plan is to have Stannis defeat the Boltons. If that's his plan, give Sansa to Stannis now, and watch all the North rally around him to throw down the Boltons. That's ignoring the fact that Stannis is unlikely to keep Littlefinger in power in a world where he sits the iron throne. After all if he wanted Stannis in power he could have not betrayed Ned and helped him put Stannis in power.
But fake Arya had a marriage to Ramsay and they don't like Sansa's book story line so they are trying to combine the two even though it makes no sense. Likewise it makes no sense that Jaime would go to rescue Myrcella himself. He says he can't send an army or it would start a war, but if the Martells won't just give Myrcella back willingly, then it doesn't matter how he forcibly removes her from Dorne. Going when he has one arm, is hated and highly recognizable is something he can't even explain to Bronn in the show. They didn't like the Dorne story line, or the Riverlands story line, couldn't or didn't want to cast the actors needed for those book story lines, and decided to mash them together into their own fan fiction and try to make it end up ultimately in the same spot as the books even if that makes no sense. There are dozens of examples of this and it's just getting worse this season. Randomly killing off Barristan by some faceless knife wielding thugs is just the latest example.
What if Stannis fails to take Winterfell? If he had given Sansa to Stannis she'd end up right where she is now. This way he plays a double-game with Stannis and the Boltons.
There is no double game to be had. What if Ramsay just kills Sansa for the hell of it? Then Littlefinger is out everything. Besides if his goal is to wait to see who wins, then wait and give Sansa to the winner. What does he gain by giving her to the Boltons right now? An alliance with someone who has no power to help him do anything because they don't even have control of the north yet, and who he expects to loose to Stannis... What's the benefit to this alliance for Littlefinger?
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I agree with karazax. Littlefinger letting the Boltons have Sansa makes no sense whatsoever. LF claims to be plotting in order to have Stannis on the throne; but Stannis would behead LF himself as soon as he would get in power. Seriously. There is absolutely no chance that Stannis would put up with LF.
And LF supposedly routing for Stannis makes even less sense. It's part of the reason why he betrayed Ned in the first place, for crying out loud. By doing so, they are going back on his character. Anyway...
LF is supposed to be a master plotter, and I doubt he would use Ramsay, as he had Joffrey killed because he was an unstable pawn in his game (at least, that's one of the two theories; I believe the other one is that he had him killed just because he could). LF would know that Ramsay is unstable as hell, and that Roose is not a man to be trifled with. Book-LF would never go anywhere near Roose, it's ludicrous.
I'm still curious to see how the plot line develops, as it could maybe turn out good, but I sincerely doubt it.
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sansa's end game from the books is to reclaim winterfell through petyr's plot, though im not sure if that really is petyr's goal. maybe shes the one that escapes and gets to the wall to meet jon, then jon supports sansa joining with stannis. this would make the plot progress faster than what petyr planned in the books i think. maybe it'll be the point of petyr's chaos; give the boltens a taste of sansa then make it seem stannis took her away. boltens fight stannis while petyr enjoys whatever that'll ensue.
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On May 09 2015 03:02 Spaylz wrote:
I agree with karazax. Littlefinger letting the Boltons have Sansa makes no sense whatsoever. LF claims to be plotting in order to have Stannis on the throne; but Stannis would behead LF himself as soon as he would get in power. Seriously. There is absolutely no chance that Stannis would put up with LF.
And LF supposedly routing for Stannis makes even less sense. It's part of the reason why he betrayed Ned in the first place, for crying out loud. By doing so, they are going back on his character. Anyway...
LF is supposed to be a master plotter, and I doubt he would use Ramsay, as he had Joffrey killed because he was an unstable pawn in his game (at least, that's one of the two theories; I believe the other one is that he had him killed just because he could). LF would know that Ramsay is unstable as hell, and that Roose is not a man to be trifled with. Book-LF would never go anywhere near Roose, it's ludicrous.
I'm still curious to see how the plot line develops, as it could maybe turn out good, but I sincerely doubt it.
I don't necessarily agree with this. Think of all of the events that have taken place between his betrayal of Ned and where we currently are. It is unreasonable to assume he foresaw all of these events taking place just as it is unreasonable to think LF, being the great schemer that he is, wouldn't be changing his schemes as events unfold around him. Just because it wasn't advantageous for him to support Stannis in the past doesn't necessarily mean it isn't advantageous for him to do it now.
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Littlefinger wanted leaders that could be manipulated in power. Stannis does not negotiate or bend on his decisions and would have removed Littlefinger from the small council at the least. There isn't much reason to think that Stannis attitude towards Littlefinger now would be improved after Littlefinger has been working with Stannis's enemies this whole time.
Even if courting Stannis was Littlefinger's plan, that's even more reason to send Sansa straight to Stannis and pledge the Vale to his cause. How is a rescued Sansa helping Littlefinger? Stannis owes Littlefinger nothing if he rescues Sansa from the Boltons after a marriage that Littlefinger arranged. Stannis might negotiate if Littlefinger gave him Sansa and the Vale (I am doubtful that book_Stannis would forgive or trust Littlefinger in any scenario and in the books Littlefinger doesn't currently have the power to commit the vale to a war. He must in the show though, or the Boltons could just take Sansa and kill Littlefinger).
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From what I can see, LF is simply making sure that no matter who wins, he will end up on top.
If Stannis wins, his plan has been to give Sansa to Stannis all along, thus giving him the support of the north. If Bolton wins, his plan was to use Sansa to gain influence with the Boltons. If Cersei wins, well, he does his best to make sure that she doesn't find out what the heck he's been doing in the north in the first place.
Going straight to the Wall would mean he would unquestionably bet against Bolton. If Bolton would win.. well, he'd be fucked.
Also, does Stannis even know LF in the show? Why is everyone so sure that LF would have a bad time under Stannis? It's not like LF is so stupid that he couldn't deal with a guy like Stannis. Sure it wouldn't be perfect, but then again, none of the other players are perfect, either. I think this is another case of people mixing up the book characters with the show characters and just assume things that are not necessarily correct.
The only thing that bugs me is that LF is supposedly oblivious of what kind of cruel monster Ramsay is. Then again, it's just as likely that he's a cold-hearted bastard and knows, and married off Sansa to him anyways.
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If Stannis wins he can't "give Sansa to Stannis" because Stannis will already have her and it will be common knowledge that Littlefinger arranged the wedding between Sansa and Stannis's enemy the Boltons. If the Bolton's win, there is still nothing gained from giving them Sansa before they win, and Sansa won't trust him any more. If Sansa dies in the combat or at Ramsay's hand then he looses.
If he waits to see who wins then that is the best option if he isn't sure. Realistically news of his rather public trip to Winterfell to give Sansa to the Boltons would be reaching King's Landing soon too, revealing him as a traitor to the Lannisters.
And yes Stannis knows LF in the show. Stannis was part of the small council before he left King's Landing after the murder of Jon Arryn. Ned wanted to crown Stannis, Littlefinger betrayed Ned primarily to stop this from happening, and makes it clear to Ned his opposition to having Stannis in charge. If Ned had taken LF's advice and named himself regent then odds are high LF does not betray him.
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Well, with this episode the show has offically become considerably worse than the last book, and that's saying something.
The whole fighting scene with Sons of harpy is ludicrous, not because Selmy dies, but because the best infantry troops in the world armed with spears and shields gets slaughter against 1:2 odds of fighting guys with knifes. The fact they didn't even try forming a phalanx or just clumping out, using their shields and the spears range to keep the knife guys at distance is just plain silly. Disregarding the book, the unsullied should have won this easily.
Then we have the Sansa plot which makes no sense. littlefinger gains absolutely nothing from this and again, disregarding the fact that they are completely changing his character and the whole North plot, makes him a weak plotter and kinda dumb. If Stannis wins against Boltons and rescues Sansa, the first thing he would do when he sees LF, is to behead him for giving Sansa to Boltons. Also, this means we won't see Mandarley serving hot vengeance on the Walders, which is a shame.
Jamie and Bronn - I just don't get it. It's just pondering to Jamie fans, but in the long run it will be considerably weaker than his book character, where he rejects Cersei early on and reedems himself in the siege of Riverunn. Here he's just a pansy fighting for a woman how despises him and manipulates him like a halfwit.
But I will say one thing - the Lady of Fire sure has a spectacular pair of tits. I generally don't like to see all the tits and asses in GoT, but that scene was a real treat. The only good to come out of the last 2 episodes.
D&D are completely out of their league at this moment, it's just embarrasing, and I fear the worst is yet to come as GRRM is no where near finishing the next book.
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On May 08 2015 22:54 sumsaR wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2015 22:34 Spaylz wrote:Video of D&D discussing Barristan's deathI don't know if they're being petty or messing around, but that bit angers me. I think Barristan still had a role to play, and the actor cared enough to argue his point and use legitimate book material to back up his claim. That seems like a total waste, and a death added just for shock value. So the actor (who's assumably read the books) playing Barristan sent a letter explaining why it was a bad idea to kill off Selmy assumably along the lines of "He didn't die there in the books, you cunts, and now you're killing him off like some pansy? You do realise how much shit you're going to get from people for this, right?", which made D&D want to kill the character even more.
Are we 100% sure that Selmy is actually dead and that's the person they were talking about in that interview?
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On May 09 2015 06:56 Odoakar wrote:
D&D are completely out of their league at this moment, it's just embarrasing, and I fear the worst is yet to come as GRRM is no where near finishing the next book.
No, no. It is all part of a genius master plan. They went meta. Their direction with the plot is a roleplay of Dany's direction trying to run Meereen.
I held back my initial disappointment in 1-4 to check myself and make sure I wasn't just reacting against the degree of deviation from the books. I'm pretty confident at this point pinning it on the show truly taking a sharp turn downhill. On the other hand, we've - + Show Spoiler +Veterans of talking in all spoilers! Spoiler because it feels suitably ironic.
But hey...burn them all? The worse GoT gets, the farther it probably is from Asoiaf. Sansa and Jaime should go to Thangorodrim next.
On May 09 2015 08:35 Stratos_speAr wrote:
Are we 100% sure that Selmy is actually dead and that's the person they were talking about in that interview?
We are sure Barristan is dead. I thought that stuff about an actor taking their death poorly and going to the point of trying to convince the show runners to change their minds was from last season and the suspects were Pyp and Grenn.
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On May 09 2015 08:39 Irrelevant Label wrote:
The worse GoT gets, the farther it probably is from Asoiaf.
Most book readers will agree with this, but I wonder just how much is bias from having read the books first. I'd love to see a survey of show only viewers ranking each scene and compare that to how much of a deviation it is from the book. If only there was a way to filter out book readers from taking the survey...
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On May 09 2015 09:03 scudst0rm wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2015 08:39 Irrelevant Label wrote:
The worse GoT gets, the farther it probably is from Asoiaf. Most book readers will agree with this, but I wonder just how much is bias from having read the books first. I'd love to see a survey of show only viewers ranking each scene and compare that to how much of a deviation it is from the book. If only there was a way to filter out book readers from taking the survey...
You could just ask in the other thread.
Then again, there you will get a bunch of book readers trying to convince the non-book readers why some scenes/plots were bad and why non-book readers are not allowed to like them. So there's that.
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EPT
