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SPOILER WARNING If you only watch the show, this thread will spoil you of future events in HBO's Game of Thrones. Thread contains discussion of all books of the series A Song of Ice and FireClick Here for the spoiler-free thread. |
On August 28 2013 06:40 Redox wrote:
I actually think what GRRM did to Cercei was the meanest thing he has done to any character. She had always been an evil, scheming bitch of mediocre intelligence. But now he really assassinated her character by making her really stupid, paranoid, delusional, a whore, an alcoholic etc. And to finish it all off he has her driven naked through the city for all to see, including her breaking down and losing the last of her dignity. Because a simple death like for other characters would have been too kind.
In the light of this I think its pretty funny that some people called GRRM feminist, because there are some women with power or whatever. In fact though they are mostly irrational because they are overly emotional, involved in major fuckups, responsible for the downfall of their families etc.
All of the intelligent or lets say rational people who are actually good at the game of thrones are men (Tywin, Tyrion, Kevan, Roose Bolton, Littlefinger, Varys, Illyrio, Doran Martell, etc). Maybe the Queen of Thornes being the only exception. But that's history for you. More male politicians. Equal male and female politicians would have resulted in a series that has little in common with European history, which is not the "look and feel" that GRRM was going for.
Characters like Dany, Brienne and Arya are proof that GRRM is quite happy to make unrealistic characters for the sake of having girls who are just as strong as boys. What more is he supposed to do? Fill his novels with unrealistic feminist characters?
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On August 29 2013 20:44 GreenGringo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2013 06:40 Redox wrote:
I actually think what GRRM did to Cercei was the meanest thing he has done to any character. She had always been an evil, scheming bitch of mediocre intelligence. But now he really assassinated her character by making her really stupid, paranoid, delusional, a whore, an alcoholic etc. And to finish it all off he has her driven naked through the city for all to see, including her breaking down and losing the last of her dignity. Because a simple death like for other characters would have been too kind.
In the light of this I think its pretty funny that some people called GRRM feminist, because there are some women with power or whatever. In fact though they are mostly irrational because they are overly emotional, involved in major fuckups, responsible for the downfall of their families etc.
All of the intelligent or lets say rational people who are actually good at the game of thrones are men (Tywin, Tyrion, Kevan, Roose Bolton, Littlefinger, Varys, Illyrio, Doran Martell, etc). Maybe the Queen of Thornes being the only exception. But that's history for you. More male politicians. Equal male and female politicians would have resulted in a series that has little in common with European history, which is not the "look and feel" that GRRM was going for. Characters like Dany, Brienne and Arya are proof that GRRM is quite happy to make unrealistic characters for the sake of having girls who are just as strong as boys. What more is he supposed to do? Fill his novels with unrealistic feminist characters?
strong female rulers were not exactly common in history but theyre also not that rare. Queen Boudica, Empress Maud, Mathilda of Tuscany are some examples of "strong" female rulers. Female warriors were more rare ofcourse, but Jeanne d'Arc is a famous example, and i think also the inspiration for Brienne.
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New actor for the next season, a Dutchie, wooh! Michiel Huisman joins the cast, role yet unknown
Link!
Picture:
+ Show Spoiler +
Speculation goes all over the place since his role is kept secret. It ought to be a recurring role.
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With the children casted and one of them announced to film in Iceland... is it safe to assume that we will see some children of the forest in season 4?
Can't remember for the life of me how Leaf is described in the books.
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On August 29 2013 22:08 Nebuchad wrote:
With the children casted and one of them announced to film in Iceland... is it safe to assume that we will see some children of the forest in season 4?
Can't remember for the life of me how Leaf is described in the books.
They are described as like little elf creatures with cat eyes, Its hard to imagine they'd be played by humans without some serious make up jobs, cgi, or deviation from the books.
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On August 29 2013 21:39 TSORG wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 20:44 GreenGringo wrote:On August 28 2013 06:40 Redox wrote:
I actually think what GRRM did to Cercei was the meanest thing he has done to any character. She had always been an evil, scheming bitch of mediocre intelligence. But now he really assassinated her character by making her really stupid, paranoid, delusional, a whore, an alcoholic etc. And to finish it all off he has her driven naked through the city for all to see, including her breaking down and losing the last of her dignity. Because a simple death like for other characters would have been too kind.
In the light of this I think its pretty funny that some people called GRRM feminist, because there are some women with power or whatever. In fact though they are mostly irrational because they are overly emotional, involved in major fuckups, responsible for the downfall of their families etc.
All of the intelligent or lets say rational people who are actually good at the game of thrones are men (Tywin, Tyrion, Kevan, Roose Bolton, Littlefinger, Varys, Illyrio, Doran Martell, etc). Maybe the Queen of Thornes being the only exception. But that's history for you. More male politicians. Equal male and female politicians would have resulted in a series that has little in common with European history, which is not the "look and feel" that GRRM was going for. Characters like Dany, Brienne and Arya are proof that GRRM is quite happy to make unrealistic characters for the sake of having girls who are just as strong as boys. What more is he supposed to do? Fill his novels with unrealistic feminist characters? strong female rulers were not exactly common in history but theyre also not that rare. Queen Boudica, Empress Maud, Mathilda of Tuscany are some examples of "strong" female rulers. Female warriors were more rare ofcourse, but Jeanne d'Arc is a famous example, and i think also the inspiration for Brienne.
Remember you are choosing from a much larger area and over a much longer time than we are exposed to. History from such times are not always accurate when it comes to portraying stuff like how mad people were and how much they may have had their strings pulled.
In ASOIAF we have Maege Mormont who is ruler of Bear island and we have Arianne Martell who is heir to Dorne, both of whom have proven fairly strong. Further we have people like Myrcella Baratheon, Sansa Stark and Alys Karstark who look like they could be(come) strong women in considerable power. We also have people like Cersei Lannister, Caitlyn Tully and Lysa Tully, some of whom may very well be remembered by history as not particularly stupid or mad. Given how short a time frame and how few significant houses we see I wouldn't say female powerful women are particularly rare.
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On August 29 2013 20:44 GreenGringo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2013 06:40 Redox wrote:
I actually think what GRRM did to Cercei was the meanest thing he has done to any character. She had always been an evil, scheming bitch of mediocre intelligence. But now he really assassinated her character by making her really stupid, paranoid, delusional, a whore, an alcoholic etc. And to finish it all off he has her driven naked through the city for all to see, including her breaking down and losing the last of her dignity. Because a simple death like for other characters would have been too kind.
In the light of this I think its pretty funny that some people called GRRM feminist, because there are some women with power or whatever. In fact though they are mostly irrational because they are overly emotional, involved in major fuckups, responsible for the downfall of their families etc.
All of the intelligent or lets say rational people who are actually good at the game of thrones are men (Tywin, Tyrion, Kevan, Roose Bolton, Littlefinger, Varys, Illyrio, Doran Martell, etc). Maybe the Queen of Thornes being the only exception. But that's history for you. More male politicians. Equal male and female politicians would have resulted in a series that has little in common with European history, which is not the "look and feel" that GRRM was going for.
I agree with you. A song of ice and fire is a deconstruction of high fantasy. And part of that I think, is showing just how sexist medieval society is. The books are full of sexism because it's a reflection of real life.
Those are my thoughts anyway. For all I know Westeros society is sexist because GRRM is sexist. But I would like to think it's the former.
What more is he supposed to do? Fill his novels with unrealistic feminist characters?
Robert Jordan did a very good job at creating a matriarchal world in his wheel of time series. And it was very realistic too (for fantasy anyway). So it definitely is possible. But should GRRM do it to AOIAF? I don't think so.
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On August 29 2013 22:29 Selendis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 20:44 GreenGringo wrote:On August 28 2013 06:40 Redox wrote:
I actually think what GRRM did to Cercei was the meanest thing he has done to any character. She had always been an evil, scheming bitch of mediocre intelligence. But now he really assassinated her character by making her really stupid, paranoid, delusional, a whore, an alcoholic etc. And to finish it all off he has her driven naked through the city for all to see, including her breaking down and losing the last of her dignity. Because a simple death like for other characters would have been too kind.
In the light of this I think its pretty funny that some people called GRRM feminist, because there are some women with power or whatever. In fact though they are mostly irrational because they are overly emotional, involved in major fuckups, responsible for the downfall of their families etc.
All of the intelligent or lets say rational people who are actually good at the game of thrones are men (Tywin, Tyrion, Kevan, Roose Bolton, Littlefinger, Varys, Illyrio, Doran Martell, etc). Maybe the Queen of Thornes being the only exception. But that's history for you. More male politicians. Equal male and female politicians would have resulted in a series that has little in common with European history, which is not the "look and feel" that GRRM was going for. I agree with you. A song of ice and fire is a deconstruction of high fantasy. And part of that I think, is showing just how sexist medieval society is. The books are full of sexism because it's a reflection of real life. Those are my thoughts anyway. For all I know Westeros society is sexist because GRRM is sexist. But I would like to think it's the former. Show nested quote +
What more is he supposed to do? Fill his novels with unrealistic feminist characters?
Robert Jordan did a very good job at creating a matriarchal world in his wheel of time series. And it was very realistic too (for fantasy anyway). So it definitely is possible. But should GRRM do it to AOIAF? I don't think so.
And yet, RJ's female characters were by far his worst. Nynaeve tugging her braid got really really cringeworthy, as did Elayne's temper tantrums. And that's without mentioning how badly Fayle was written.
RJ was far better at setting the background of the matriarchal society, than actually writing about the women who ran the place.
GRRM's female characters are strong because they themselves are portrayed as strong women in a society dominated by men, and this is partly because he writes them well.
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RJ's female characters were pretty much the reason I stopped reading those books.
If anything GRRM is overly generous when it comes to putting female characters in positions of power. That's why its important to keep in mind we're talking about Westeros and not Medieval Europe. If we were talking about Medieval Europe there would be far fewer women in positions of power. For example, if Arya was born in medieval Europe she most likely would would not have been taught how to read.
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On August 29 2013 23:06 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 22:29 Selendis wrote:On August 29 2013 20:44 GreenGringo wrote:On August 28 2013 06:40 Redox wrote:
I actually think what GRRM did to Cercei was the meanest thing he has done to any character. She had always been an evil, scheming bitch of mediocre intelligence. But now he really assassinated her character by making her really stupid, paranoid, delusional, a whore, an alcoholic etc. And to finish it all off he has her driven naked through the city for all to see, including her breaking down and losing the last of her dignity. Because a simple death like for other characters would have been too kind.
In the light of this I think its pretty funny that some people called GRRM feminist, because there are some women with power or whatever. In fact though they are mostly irrational because they are overly emotional, involved in major fuckups, responsible for the downfall of their families etc.
All of the intelligent or lets say rational people who are actually good at the game of thrones are men (Tywin, Tyrion, Kevan, Roose Bolton, Littlefinger, Varys, Illyrio, Doran Martell, etc). Maybe the Queen of Thornes being the only exception. But that's history for you. More male politicians. Equal male and female politicians would have resulted in a series that has little in common with European history, which is not the "look and feel" that GRRM was going for. I agree with you. A song of ice and fire is a deconstruction of high fantasy. And part of that I think, is showing just how sexist medieval society is. The books are full of sexism because it's a reflection of real life. Those are my thoughts anyway. For all I know Westeros society is sexist because GRRM is sexist. But I would like to think it's the former.
What more is he supposed to do? Fill his novels with unrealistic feminist characters?
Robert Jordan did a very good job at creating a matriarchal world in his wheel of time series. And it was very realistic too (for fantasy anyway). So it definitely is possible. But should GRRM do it to AOIAF? I don't think so. And yet, RJ's female characters were by far his worst. Nynaeve tugging her braid got really really cringeworthy, as did Elayne's temper tantrums. And that's without mentioning how badly Fayle was written. RJ was far better at setting the background of the matriarchal society, than actually writing about the women who ran the place. GRRM's female characters are strong because they themselves are portrayed as strong women in a society dominated by men, and this is partly because he writes them well.
This is true. Martin has the easier job though. There are strong women in the real world and throughout history against the backdrop of a patriarchal society. But a matriarchy is pretty much theoretical. You really have to have a good imagination in order to work out just how a woman would behave, not only in a position of power but also in a position of power as part of the dominant gender.
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On August 29 2013 23:36 Selendis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 23:06 Acrofales wrote:On August 29 2013 22:29 Selendis wrote:On August 29 2013 20:44 GreenGringo wrote:On August 28 2013 06:40 Redox wrote:
I actually think what GRRM did to Cercei was the meanest thing he has done to any character. She had always been an evil, scheming bitch of mediocre intelligence. But now he really assassinated her character by making her really stupid, paranoid, delusional, a whore, an alcoholic etc. And to finish it all off he has her driven naked through the city for all to see, including her breaking down and losing the last of her dignity. Because a simple death like for other characters would have been too kind.
In the light of this I think its pretty funny that some people called GRRM feminist, because there are some women with power or whatever. In fact though they are mostly irrational because they are overly emotional, involved in major fuckups, responsible for the downfall of their families etc.
All of the intelligent or lets say rational people who are actually good at the game of thrones are men (Tywin, Tyrion, Kevan, Roose Bolton, Littlefinger, Varys, Illyrio, Doran Martell, etc). Maybe the Queen of Thornes being the only exception. But that's history for you. More male politicians. Equal male and female politicians would have resulted in a series that has little in common with European history, which is not the "look and feel" that GRRM was going for. I agree with you. A song of ice and fire is a deconstruction of high fantasy. And part of that I think, is showing just how sexist medieval society is. The books are full of sexism because it's a reflection of real life. Those are my thoughts anyway. For all I know Westeros society is sexist because GRRM is sexist. But I would like to think it's the former.
What more is he supposed to do? Fill his novels with unrealistic feminist characters?
Robert Jordan did a very good job at creating a matriarchal world in his wheel of time series. And it was very realistic too (for fantasy anyway). So it definitely is possible. But should GRRM do it to AOIAF? I don't think so. And yet, RJ's female characters were by far his worst. Nynaeve tugging her braid got really really cringeworthy, as did Elayne's temper tantrums. And that's without mentioning how badly Fayle was written. RJ was far better at setting the background of the matriarchal society, than actually writing about the women who ran the place. GRRM's female characters are strong because they themselves are portrayed as strong women in a society dominated by men, and this is partly because he writes them well. This is true. Martin has the easier job though. There are strong women in the real world and throughout history against the backdrop of a patriarchal society. But a matriarchy is pretty much theoretical. You really have to have a good imagination in order to work out just how a woman would behave, not only in a position of power but also in a position of power as part of the dominant gender.
That's a valiant attempt at defending RJ, but mostly his forte wasn't his characters, female or otherwise. His focus was on worldbuilding, which isn't really supposed to hurt character development in theory, but tends to do it in most large series where worldbuilding is a factor.
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On August 29 2013 21:39 TSORG wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 20:44 GreenGringo wrote:On August 28 2013 06:40 Redox wrote:
I actually think what GRRM did to Cercei was the meanest thing he has done to any character. She had always been an evil, scheming bitch of mediocre intelligence. But now he really assassinated her character by making her really stupid, paranoid, delusional, a whore, an alcoholic etc. And to finish it all off he has her driven naked through the city for all to see, including her breaking down and losing the last of her dignity. Because a simple death like for other characters would have been too kind.
In the light of this I think its pretty funny that some people called GRRM feminist, because there are some women with power or whatever. In fact though they are mostly irrational because they are overly emotional, involved in major fuckups, responsible for the downfall of their families etc.
All of the intelligent or lets say rational people who are actually good at the game of thrones are men (Tywin, Tyrion, Kevan, Roose Bolton, Littlefinger, Varys, Illyrio, Doran Martell, etc). Maybe the Queen of Thornes being the only exception. But that's history for you. More male politicians. Equal male and female politicians would have resulted in a series that has little in common with European history, which is not the "look and feel" that GRRM was going for. Characters like Dany, Brienne and Arya are proof that GRRM is quite happy to make unrealistic characters for the sake of having girls who are just as strong as boys. What more is he supposed to do? Fill his novels with unrealistic feminist characters? strong female rulers were not exactly common in history but theyre also not that rare. Queen Boudica, Empress Maud, Mathilda of Tuscany are some examples of "strong" female rulers. Female warriors were more rare ofcourse, but Jeanne d'Arc is a famous example, and i think also the inspiration for Brienne. Well Dany is the strongest of rulers at the sweet age of 14. That's why I say she's unrealistic as a character. Indeed, she's inherently unrealistic due to the "dragonborn" aspect of her story.
Brienne is unrealistic not because she has strong character, but because she's one of the best swordfighters in Westeros and as strong as the strongest of men. We don't have girls near the top of the field even in Starcraft. Add in the physical component and the odds of a person like Brienne occurring in real life drop to almost vanishing.
Arya, do I need to mention her? She cuts down soldiers left and right even as a ten-year-old pup.
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On August 30 2013 01:03 GreenGringo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 21:39 TSORG wrote:On August 29 2013 20:44 GreenGringo wrote:On August 28 2013 06:40 Redox wrote:
I actually think what GRRM did to Cercei was the meanest thing he has done to any character. She had always been an evil, scheming bitch of mediocre intelligence. But now he really assassinated her character by making her really stupid, paranoid, delusional, a whore, an alcoholic etc. And to finish it all off he has her driven naked through the city for all to see, including her breaking down and losing the last of her dignity. Because a simple death like for other characters would have been too kind.
In the light of this I think its pretty funny that some people called GRRM feminist, because there are some women with power or whatever. In fact though they are mostly irrational because they are overly emotional, involved in major fuckups, responsible for the downfall of their families etc.
All of the intelligent or lets say rational people who are actually good at the game of thrones are men (Tywin, Tyrion, Kevan, Roose Bolton, Littlefinger, Varys, Illyrio, Doran Martell, etc). Maybe the Queen of Thornes being the only exception. But that's history for you. More male politicians. Equal male and female politicians would have resulted in a series that has little in common with European history, which is not the "look and feel" that GRRM was going for. Characters like Dany, Brienne and Arya are proof that GRRM is quite happy to make unrealistic characters for the sake of having girls who are just as strong as boys. What more is he supposed to do? Fill his novels with unrealistic feminist characters? strong female rulers were not exactly common in history but theyre also not that rare. Queen Boudica, Empress Maud, Mathilda of Tuscany are some examples of "strong" female rulers. Female warriors were more rare ofcourse, but Jeanne d'Arc is a famous example, and i think also the inspiration for Brienne. Well Dany is the strongest of rulers at the sweet age of 14. That's why I say she's unrealistic as a character. Indeed, she's inherently unrealistic due to the "dragonborn" aspect of her story. Brienne is unrealistic not because she has strong character, but because she's one of the best swordfighters in Westeros and as strong as the strongest of men. We don't have girls near the top of the field even in Starcraft. Add in the physical component and the odds of a person like Brienne occurring in real life drop to almost vanishing. Arya, do I need to mention her? She cuts down soldiers left and right even as a ten-year-old pup.
oh mang you didn't realize you found this in the fiction section? Seeing the future, wargs, and resurection didn't tip you off that this realistic reality that you are holding it up to is a bad comparison? Pretty sure dragons are a big unrealistic part of the story. did they really say Brienne was as strong as the strongest man? cause there are a lot of "realistic" athletic women that are much stronger than you and I and im not sure how your using bio truths to indicate that penis is required for pro sword fighter. Are you seriously going to bring up biology being the reason women are not at the top of starcraft? When did arya start "cutting down soldiers left and right" i recall it always being a more trick and stab approach.
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On August 30 2013 01:28 ComaDose wrote:
did they really say Brienne was as strong as the strongest man? cause there are a lot of "realistic" athletic women that are much stronger than you and I and im not sure how your using bio truths to indicate that penis is required for pro sword fighter. Brienne simply isn't a very believable character. Okay, she has a one-in-a-million physical condition that results in her being a giant. Now what are the chances that she would accumulate sufficient practice, in a culture that's patriarchal to the core, to rival the best male swordfighters? Negligible, I think.
At best, GRRM is giving her "super powers" because the feminist plot line is interesting. I'm okay with that, but let's call it for what it is. GRRM is sufficiently feminist that he's prepared to stretch the borders of believability and confer super powers on his female PoV characters.
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On August 30 2013 05:02 GreenGringo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2013 01:28 ComaDose wrote:
did they really say Brienne was as strong as the strongest man? cause there are a lot of "realistic" athletic women that are much stronger than you and I and im not sure how your using bio truths to indicate that penis is required for pro sword fighter. Brienne simply isn't a very believable character. Okay, she has a one-in-a-million physical condition that results in her being a giant. Now what are the chances that she would accumulate sufficient practice, in a culture that's patriarchal to the core, to rival the best male swordfighters? Negligible, I think. At best, GRRM is giving her "super powers" because the feminist plot line is interesting. I'm okay with that, but let's call it for what it is. GRRM is sufficiently feminist that he's prepared to stretch the borders of believability and confer super powers on his female PoV characters.
I don't understand why you think giving women super powers is feminist and unbelievable and giving men super powers is normal. Being laughed at for wearing a dress and preferring to spend all your time being trained by Ser Goodwin seems like a very realistic way to become a good sword fighter.
EDIT: not a 1 in a million chance to be a giant when your the same size as other characters what.
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On August 30 2013 05:02 GreenGringo wrote:
Brienne simply isn't a very believable character. Okay, she has a one-in-a-million physical condition that results in her being a giant. Now what are the chances that she would accumulate sufficient practice, in a culture that's patriarchal to the core, to rival the best male swordfighters? Negligible, I think.
There are exceptions in every culture, and her physique made her more likely to be of those exceptions.
Depicting a world where every single character is modeled after a cultural stereotype would make both the world and characters less believable, not more so.
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The explanation for Brienne being a good fighter is pretty legit. She's the only child of a relatively wealthy lord but also hideous. Has the resources available to train, and no one really wants to marry her. She's a bit of an outlier physically (6ft + tall, very masculine body type), but not impossible.
IDK what is so unbelievable about that.
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On August 30 2013 05:16 ComaDose wrote:
I don't understand why you think giving women super powers is feminist and unbelievable and giving men super powers is normal. Sorry, which male PoV characters have super powers, again? The secret warging abilities that remain dormant for most of the series? Are Davos' onion-smuggling skills supposed to be super powers?
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On August 30 2013 05:20 Bigtony wrote:
The explanation for Brienne being a good fighter is pretty legit. She's the only child of a relatively wealthy lord but also hideous. Has the resources available to train, and no one really wants to marry her. She's a bit of an outlier physically (6ft + tall, very masculine body type), but not impossible.
IDK what is so unbelievable about that. Lol...
6 feet with greater strength than strong men isn't "a bit of an outlier". It's a huge outlier. A woman has to be an outlier to even compete with a man of average strength, let alone someone like Jaimie Lannister.
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On August 30 2013 05:26 GreenGringo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2013 05:16 ComaDose wrote:
I don't understand why you think giving women super powers is feminist and unbelievable and giving men super powers is normal. Sorry, which male PoV characters have super powers, again? The secret warging abilities that remain dormant for most of the series? Are Davos' onion-smuggling skills supposed to be super powers?
Have you even read the books? Even ignoring that Jon will probably warg to escape death and Bran the greenseer, who are magic and therefore don't fall in the realm of superpowers you are talking about (and neither does Dany hatching dragons), I think we can home in on Tyrion who just happens to have people around him ALL the time to protect him from certain death.
Sam the Slayer.
Sometimes, you have to stretch your imagination for the sake of a good story... and in the case of Brienne you really don't have to stretch very far. Her background is plausible and so is her physique.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/qPPb4fDl.jpg)
