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SPOILER WARNING If you only watch the show, this thread will spoil you of future events in HBO's Game of Thrones. Thread contains discussion of all books of the series A Song of Ice and Fire Click Here for the spoiler-free thread. | ||
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TSORG
293 Posts
On August 30 2013 17:58 Nyovne wrote: The only thing unrealistic is this whole discussion. lol NO? Dragons are real... didnt you know? Where I live winters always last lifetimes and ive never seen the sun... so ya... this discussion is very neccesary. | ||
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Mikau
Netherlands1446 Posts
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Tiwo
Netherlands306 Posts
Sidenote, the new dutchy (Michiel Huisman) is replacing Daario... | ||
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TSORG
293 Posts
On August 31 2013 03:31 Mikau wrote: Just because it's fantasy or made up doesn't mean it's unrealistic. Unrealistic is when something doesn't make sense within the rules and boundaries of the world created by the author. In thise case, dragons, lifelong winters and Others arent unrealistic, but Brienne might be (though I don't think so). but people are relating it to our world and linking it to feminism etc. brienne is unrealistic because in our world women are not as strong or big as men (though occasionally it does happen) not because in westeros women cant be like that, because obviously there are a few. meh i never liked this type of dissecting and analysis of a story, it ruins the magic of story telling. so what if a character is unrealistic, when its a kick ass character or a kick ass story, i dont mind  but by all means go ahead. i know that some ppl like it. i love language and literature so i tried some uni classes of literature and text analysis, omg didnt know how fast i had to get out of there haha. | ||
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itkovian
United States1763 Posts
On August 31 2013 09:47 TSORG wrote: but people are relating it to our world and linking it to feminism etc. brienne is unrealistic because in our world women are not as strong or big as men (though occasionally it does happen) not because in westeros women cant be like that, because obviously there are a few. meh i never liked this type of dissecting and analysis of a story, it ruins the magic of story telling. so what if a character is unrealistic, when its a kick ass character or a kick ass story, i dont mind but by all means go ahead. i know that some ppl like it. i love language and literature so i tried some uni classes of literature and text analysis, omg didnt know how fast i had to get out of there haha. Certain types of analysis lend themselves to certain types of books. For example, for ASOIAF you don't judge it too much for its language, since GRRM isn't a remarkable writer- but a remarkable story teller. ASOIAF is most suited for analyzing the plot and character interactions imo. And its fun to predict how the plot will unfold, since we're mid-series! But besides the obvious theme of "there is no black and white", its probably best to avoid trying to dig too deep into GRRM's themes. The story is so large, and there are so many circumstances, and so many characters, I bet you could find point and counter-point examples to every possible theme you could come up with. | ||
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Irrelevant Label
United States596 Posts
On August 30 2013 17:58 Nyovne wrote: The only thing unrealistic is this whole discussion. This has been my thought as well. It seems this thread goes strange places when we are a couple years between books and in the off season for the show. Edit: This is regarding the stuff last page and a couple pages ago, not the current conversation surrounding this post. | ||
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Selendis
Australia509 Posts
On August 31 2013 00:59 Acrofales wrote: Rand was okay, but Brandon Sanderson murdered him, imho.. Yup. He sure did lol. As for RJ's work I'm a little bit reluctant to call out characters as being poorly written when there are emotional reasons for poor decisions. I actually found it interesting how characters had different blindspots and complexes that affected their decision-making. But looking back on it now, it does seem like overkill. And yeah Cadsuane definitely acted out of character. But of course I never really read the books for the characters (save for Rand). I read it for the themes of messiah, the battle between good and evil, salvation and redemption vs damnation, fighting fire with fire vs moralistic handicaps, the fertile feet trope etc. The best part I liked about the series was just how Shaitan focuses on destroying Rand psychologically rather than trying to kill him and just how that psychological battle is played out throughout the entire series. And then yeah, contrast this to ASOIAF where I read the series just so I can see what's happening with Dany and Tyrion. | ||
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tshi
United States2495 Posts
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TSORG
293 Posts
On August 31 2013 09:57 itkovian wrote: Certain types of analysis lend themselves to certain types of books. For example, for ASOIAF you don't judge it too much for its language, since GRRM isn't a remarkable writer- but a remarkable story teller. ASOIAF is most suited for analyzing the plot and character interactions imo. And its fun to predict how the plot will unfold, since we're mid-series! But besides the obvious theme of "there is no black and white", its probably best to avoid trying to dig too deep into GRRM's themes. The story is so large, and there are so many circumstances, and so many characters, I bet you could find point and counter-point examples to every possible theme you could come up with. playing with the plot and trying to predict it is something else imo, and i dont mind that, its fun indeed. but once people start to say things like what is the point of Samwell Tarly, he does nothing right etc etc hes just a waste of time. Or Cercei is just a foil for more powerfull women, then you lose me. | ||
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Grovbolle
Denmark3813 Posts
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tshi
United States2495 Posts
http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/96016-twow-spoilers-worldcon-reading-second-tyrion-chapter/ Spoilers obviously | ||
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DJ Roomba
158 Posts
On August 31 2013 12:00 tshi wrote: So they're recasting Dario (so he looks more like benjen ^^) and The Mountain (again). :S yes!!! benjen = dario is trueeeeee | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12387 Posts
On August 31 2013 09:57 itkovian wrote: Certain types of analysis lend themselves to certain types of books. For example, for ASOIAF you don't judge it too much for its language, since GRRM isn't a remarkable writer- but a remarkable story teller. Could you expand a little bit? I always thought the way GRRM is using foreshadowing is a pretty awesome feat on a writer's part. Also I could write a ton on how he is using deconstruction (well, I actually have)... But maybe that's considered part of storytelling... | ||
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farvacola
United States18846 Posts
On September 01 2013 06:04 Nebuchad wrote: Could you expand a little bit? I always thought the way GRRM is using foreshadowing is a pretty awesome feat on a writer's part. Also I could write a ton on how he is using deconstruction (well, I actually have)... But maybe that's considered part of storytelling... Well I can't speak for the poster you quoted, but I don't find GRRM's syntax all that appealing, but then again, I don't think that's the point of his writing. It is purposefully utilitarian in that it allows the things that it represents to speak louder than the words themselves, in contrast with someone like Thomas Pynchon or David Foster Wallace, two authors who make it a point to require a reader to do a fair amount of unpacking in terms of understanding their rhetorical stylization. ASOIAF reads in a very cinematic fashion, as though the images compel a reader more than the actual prose (one very rarely, if ever, has to reread the same page twice). You'll notice this compulsion to "zoom out" with GRRM's dialogue perhaps more than anywhere else; if you really slow down, the transitions quickly start to make their clunky nature apparent. | ||
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itkovian
United States1763 Posts
On September 01 2013 06:04 Nebuchad wrote: Could you expand a little bit? I always thought the way GRRM is using foreshadowing is a pretty awesome feat on a writer's part. Also I could write a ton on how he is using deconstruction (well, I actually have)... But maybe that's considered part of storytelling... I'm no authority on writing, so what I say is probably not worth much. But if i'll attempt to elaborate anyway haha... I mispoke when when I said GRRM isn't a remarkable writer, because being a good writer really encompasses a lot of different abilities. What I meant to say is the style and language of GRRM's writing is not especially captivating- what is really captivating are his characters, plot and story. GRRM's language and style are good, better than the average published writer, but they're not exceptional. He's not trying to construct the perfect sentences and use the most powerful imagery. He's trying to tell a story, and the style is secondary. His books are so long and there is so much content, he doesn't have time to hone every sentence. And that's fine. I suppose its kind of like Lord of the Rings. I'm in the middle of the trilogy right now, and its clear Tolkien isn't the best stylist writer- his writing can get boring and redundant. How many sunsets must he describe! But his power lays in his story telling and world building, much like GRRM. I'm not confident in my education enough to try and point out specific weaknesses in his writing style, maybe someone else can, it seems farvacola touched on it a bit. But I guess the most I could do from my own instinct is compare ASOIAF to other works. For example, The Road and One Day in the Life of Ivan Disonivich are two of my favorite novels, and its not because of the plot, but because of the language. I just loved consuming their words. And thats not why I like ASOIAF. I like ASOIAF because the plot and characters are great. I'm not reading it for the writing style. | ||
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Teradur
97 Posts
On September 01 2013 02:29 tshi wrote: Awesome. here is a summary of a Tyrion chapter from the winds of winter, which GRRM read for some convention or something: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/96016-twow-spoilers-worldcon-reading-second-tyrion-chapter/ Spoilers obviously I hear he is doing these readings from time to time - the only one I have actually listened to though is the widely known "Viktarion" chapter (if you don*t know it, I can only recommend it, I think his reading is fantastic). Does anybody know - is it usually not allowed to record readings at these conventions? You would think that a recording would end up somewhere in the internet with all the hype around the books and since these are unknown chapters.  | ||
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Redox
Germany24794 Posts
On August 31 2013 12:00 tshi wrote: So they're recasting Dario (so he looks more like benjen ^^) and The Mountain (again). :S Well Mountain recasting had to happen. It was a tragedy the original Mountain actor had to leave (because he was cast for the Hobbit films I think). The guy that stood in for him was only a stuntman, not a real actor. So he was barely getting any screen time. Will the original actor be back? That would be perfect. edit: nvm, it is Hafþór Júlíus Björnsson (a Strongmen competitor) who will get the part. Shae. Although I guess there will not be much dialogue for him anyway, just 1 fight. The Daario replacement could be confusing people though, although I would not mind a different actor. | ||
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LoLAdriankat
United States4307 Posts
My prediction, Arya+Hound scenes will be followed by The Mountain scenes. I.E The Hound talking to Arya about how bullshit chivalry and knighthood is, then cut to a scene of The Mountain doing Mountainy stuff like chopping Locke to pieces and feeding him with his own flesh until he's a limbless stump. | ||
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unkkz
Norway2196 Posts
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packrat386
United States5077 Posts
On September 01 2013 15:27 itkovian wrote: I'm no authority on writing, so what I say is probably not worth much. But if i'll attempt to elaborate anyway haha... I mispoke when when I said GRRM isn't a remarkable writer, because being a good writer really encompasses a lot of different abilities. What I meant to say is the style and language of GRRM's writing is not especially captivating- what is really captivating are his characters, plot and story. GRRM's language and style are good, better than the average published writer, but they're not exceptional. He's not trying to construct the perfect sentences and use the most powerful imagery. He's trying to tell a story, and the style is secondary. His books are so long and there is so much content, he doesn't have time to hone every sentence. And that's fine. I suppose its kind of like Lord of the Rings. I'm in the middle of the trilogy right now, and its clear Tolkien isn't the best stylist writer- his writing can get boring and redundant. How many sunsets must he describe! But his power lays in his story telling and world building, much like GRRM. I'm not confident in my education enough to try and point out specific weaknesses in his writing style, maybe someone else can, it seems farvacola touched on it a bit. But I guess the most I could do from my own instinct is compare ASOIAF to other works. For example, The Road and One Day in the Life of Ivan Disonivich are two of my favorite novels, and its not because of the plot, but because of the language. I just loved consuming their words. And thats not why I like ASOIAF. I like ASOIAF because the plot and characters are great. I'm not reading it for the writing style. OK, so imo the thing that makes GGRM's writing style weak is his characters lack of depth. Almost none of his characters develop at all, in part because there are so many of them, but also because they just don't seem to change. Take a couple examples of characters that have been around for a while, Tyrion is still just a bitter jokester, even after all of this time nothing has fundamentally changed his character. Catelyn only cares about her children, then she dies, comes back, and is pretty much exactly the same. The characters motivations for the most part are really shallow and basic, and most of them wear it on their sleeve in the form of a mantra that they say to themselves from time to time. Lastly, most of the conflicts between characters are also really simple, and get resolved most often by somebody dying. He has managed to make a complex plot but with only simple elements. The inevitable response that I might as well just answer here. What about X character(s) that changes a lot: There are a few characters who do truly develop (Arya, Dany, Jon) however they are extreme outliers in a plot that focuses on so many different people. Also a lot of the examples that people will use for development really aren't that good. Take Jaime and Bran for example, both of them develop as characters for like an hour after they're maimed, but then they sort of stay the same, thats not development, its trauma. | ||
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