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SPOILER WARNING If you only watch the show, this thread will spoil you of future events in HBO's Game of Thrones. Thread contains discussion of all books of the series A Song of Ice and FireClick Here for the spoiler-free thread. |
On May 28 2013 11:32 Irrelevant Label wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2013 11:28 Dosey wrote:On May 28 2013 10:04 Irrelevant Label wrote:On May 28 2013 07:10 Dosey wrote:On May 28 2013 06:45 Redox wrote:On May 28 2013 06:28 Irrelevant Label wrote:On May 28 2013 06:26 Zozo wrote:
If that was to happen, who do you guys think Sandor would champion for?
Brienne? Jaime? Nymeria Sand? Arya? Himself? No one, just a random 1x1 bo1 without a crowd to watch? The Faith. They are the ones charging Cersei with her treasons after all. There is little doubt he is their best swordsman. Damn you might be on to something. Would totally fit. Except Cersei/Strong HAVE to win in order for her to outlive her children, and for the prophecy of Jaime/Tyrion killing her. Plus it is too soon. The books aFfC and aDwD may have been 7 years apart, but in actuality they are happening simultaneously. Do you really think Sandor would be in fit physical condition to even qualify for being their best fighter with that lame leg and having been on the brink of death? No. IF it does happen, it wouldn't be anytime soon and definitely wouldn't be to champion against Cersei. She could lose and they might kill Tommen before her. Hard to say with Myrcella given where she is. They might not plan to kill her at all if she loses. Remember the culture here. She is just a wanton woman who tempted these men, that does not usually carry a death penalty. Their default course of action would be something like forcing her into some group like the silent sisters.My bet is she does something else which gets herself killed. Maybe she loses it, similar to what happened with Cat, after they kill Tommen? Maegi never said "your valonquar", it is "the valonquar". Everyone assumes Tyrion or Jaime, and that is reasonable and if forced to say a name I choose Jaime myself, but once again there is a spot for Sandor here... She also never said that they had to die before her, it is just the (again seemingly reasonable) assumption based on their wearing golden shrouds before Cersei dies. Wasn't Myrcella wearing a golden shroud lately to hide her scar? She was briefly held to be a queen by a handful of people in the plot that earned her that scar. She could already fulfill her part of the requirement. Wrong. She already confessed to those sins and did her walk of shame. There is no need to hold a trial for those crimes. The trial is for the accusations of murdering her husband (regicide), ordering the murder of the previous High Septon (deicide), and sexing up her bro bro (incest). Those crimes would have a harsher penalty than walking naked across town. As for the rest, you seem to be grasping at straws just to play devil's advocate here. That a woman is treated differently and along those lines still holds, but yes I had which charge she is still up for wrong. Someone has to see to the unfilled sides of an argument for any meaningful discussion of a matter of have taken place. From the other thread: Why do people think Stannis is the rightful king? This is very popular among book readers as well as show watchers, but it seems to require a certain doublethink to arrive at. It seems that the issue is very simple and leads to two answers: A. Line of succession matters and the rightful king is...erm, well whoever is the proper claim to the Targaryen dynasty. B. Conquest and realpolitik matter. All hail king Tommen (Joffrey for now to show watchers). To arrive at Stannis the Barathon conquest counts but apparently the Lannister one does not? I am not sure there is a very good basis for this stance.
Along the lines of the poster above me, it's a combination of both "A' and "B" but the Lannisters haven't actually "conquered" the throne yet.
Four kingdoms are in open rebellion (Stormlands, North, Iron Islands, and Riverlands)
Two kingdoms are just as bad and may as well be in open rebellion (Vale and Dorne)
The only kingdom loyal to the Lannister crown at this point is the Reach, and before recently, they were in open rebellion too.
By accepting B, House Baratheon is the rightful royal house having conquered and deposed House Targaryen. Lannister has yet to conquer the Iron Throne in anything but name while the vast majority of the country is either in direct or indirect rebellion.
This makes Stannis the rightful king and his is the legitimate claim by the lawful line of succession.
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Ah, yeah, that is reasonable. With that premise now in mind I'd offer that the key point within that is a state of westeros-wide peace was achieved under the Baratheon dynasty, and that is what allowed it to pass from Targaryen to Baratheon.
However, as of now in the books only the iron islands and about half the north remain in open revolt to the knowledge of KL politics. Everything else is settling in. On the other, other hand "Tomorrow morning" when Kevan's death is known probably everyone will see the imminent implosion of Lannister power and it will all fall apart even more spectacularly than LF suggested to Sansa.
Still a Baelish loyalist myself either way.
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I'm curious what exactly LF's end-game will be.
Right now, he has accumulated a few titles (Harrenhall/the Vale, possibly the North through Sansa??).
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Netherlands6191 Posts
I think LF is going to die before he actually gets anywhere. I don't know why I have that feeling, but I just do. They portray him quite well in the series - creepy and slimy and not one to tangle with. Ugh. I'm curious as to what will happen to Sansa, and Arya.
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They portray him terribly in the show (after season 1). They turned a character who's smart, secretive and calculating into a mustache twirling villain.
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Netherlands6191 Posts
On May 29 2013 22:24 moopie wrote:
They portray him terribly in the show (after season 1). They turned a character who's smart, secretive and calculating into a mustache twirling villain.
But thats kinda how I imagined him in the book. A moustache twirling villain. Admittedly his character got worse, but he at least embodies my own feelings for LittleFinger. I really wish in Season 1 they had shown The Hound telling Sansa his burn secret rather than Baelish. It made the Hound far more human to me.
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On May 29 2013 22:24 moopie wrote:
They portray him terribly in the show (after season 1). They turned a character who's smart, secretive and calculating into a mustache twirling villain.
Yep Littlefinger on the show is one of the least accurate adaptations. He should be more like Ben Linus from Lost or Verbal Kint from the Usual Suspects. He looks like a relatively harmless pawn in the game at the start, but turns out to be much, much more. But since the show makes him so transparent in his motivations it just doesn't work as well. Finding out that it was Littlefinger behind Ser Dontas should be a major reveal, when you think Sansa is perhaps finally getting "saved". Having him kill Dontas shows he is more dangerous than just a corrupt politician. Baelish should be one of the smartest and most secretive players in the game, but the show makes him more of an over reaching pimp who likes to blert his intentions out any chance he gets.
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Netherlands6191 Posts
On May 29 2013 23:06 karazax wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 22:24 moopie wrote:
They portray him terribly in the show (after season 1). They turned a character who's smart, secretive and calculating into a mustache twirling villain. Yep Littlefinger on the show is one of the least accurate adaptations. He should be more like Ben Linus from Lost or Verbal Kint from the Usual Suspects. He looks like a relatively harmless pawn in the game at the start, but turns out to be much, much more. But since the show makes him so transparent in his motivations it just doesn't work as well. Finding out that it was Littlefinger behind Ser Dontas should be a major reveal, when you think Sansa is perhaps finally getting "saved". Having him kill Dontas shows he is more dangerous than just a corrupt politician. Baelish should be one of the smartest and most secretive players in the game, but the show makes him more of an over reaching pimp who likes to blert his intentions out any chance he gets.
Thats not really the actors fault though. They took out a whole lot of things that should have been in there, probably to reduce the number of actors and characters to keep people being confused. I'm not really crediting the show's writers for Petyr's portrayal, but I don't like what they did with a lot of the show, but then again I am really picky and like series/movies to follow the books as closely as possible. It was ambitious to take on this project as it was, given the number of characters, but it makes for a really good story nonetheless.
I agree that they could have done better with LF's character, especially in regards to him being cunning and sly in the background, because yeah, he is too transparent and obvious. I was only saying that the actor playing him fitted the description of him in my head.
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United States43546 Posts
On May 28 2013 13:56 GGTeMpLaR wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2013 11:32 Irrelevant Label wrote:On May 28 2013 11:28 Dosey wrote:On May 28 2013 10:04 Irrelevant Label wrote:On May 28 2013 07:10 Dosey wrote:On May 28 2013 06:45 Redox wrote:On May 28 2013 06:28 Irrelevant Label wrote:On May 28 2013 06:26 Zozo wrote:
If that was to happen, who do you guys think Sandor would champion for?
Brienne? Jaime? Nymeria Sand? Arya? Himself? No one, just a random 1x1 bo1 without a crowd to watch? The Faith. They are the ones charging Cersei with her treasons after all. There is little doubt he is their best swordsman. Damn you might be on to something. Would totally fit. Except Cersei/Strong HAVE to win in order for her to outlive her children, and for the prophecy of Jaime/Tyrion killing her. Plus it is too soon. The books aFfC and aDwD may have been 7 years apart, but in actuality they are happening simultaneously. Do you really think Sandor would be in fit physical condition to even qualify for being their best fighter with that lame leg and having been on the brink of death? No. IF it does happen, it wouldn't be anytime soon and definitely wouldn't be to champion against Cersei. She could lose and they might kill Tommen before her. Hard to say with Myrcella given where she is. They might not plan to kill her at all if she loses. Remember the culture here. She is just a wanton woman who tempted these men, that does not usually carry a death penalty. Their default course of action would be something like forcing her into some group like the silent sisters.My bet is she does something else which gets herself killed. Maybe she loses it, similar to what happened with Cat, after they kill Tommen? Maegi never said "your valonquar", it is "the valonquar". Everyone assumes Tyrion or Jaime, and that is reasonable and if forced to say a name I choose Jaime myself, but once again there is a spot for Sandor here... She also never said that they had to die before her, it is just the (again seemingly reasonable) assumption based on their wearing golden shrouds before Cersei dies. Wasn't Myrcella wearing a golden shroud lately to hide her scar? She was briefly held to be a queen by a handful of people in the plot that earned her that scar. She could already fulfill her part of the requirement. Wrong. She already confessed to those sins and did her walk of shame. There is no need to hold a trial for those crimes. The trial is for the accusations of murdering her husband (regicide), ordering the murder of the previous High Septon (deicide), and sexing up her bro bro (incest). Those crimes would have a harsher penalty than walking naked across town. As for the rest, you seem to be grasping at straws just to play devil's advocate here. That a woman is treated differently and along those lines still holds, but yes I had which charge she is still up for wrong. Someone has to see to the unfilled sides of an argument for any meaningful discussion of a matter of have taken place. From the other thread: Why do people think Stannis is the rightful king? This is very popular among book readers as well as show watchers, but it seems to require a certain doublethink to arrive at. It seems that the issue is very simple and leads to two answers: A. Line of succession matters and the rightful king is...erm, well whoever is the proper claim to the Targaryen dynasty. B. Conquest and realpolitik matter. All hail king Tommen (Joffrey for now to show watchers). To arrive at Stannis the Barathon conquest counts but apparently the Lannister one does not? I am not sure there is a very good basis for this stance. Along the lines of the poster above me, it's a combination of both "A' and "B" but the Lannisters haven't actually "conquered" the throne yet. Four kingdoms are in open rebellion (Stormlands, North, Iron Islands, and Riverlands) Two kingdoms are just as bad and may as well be in open rebellion (Vale and Dorne) The only kingdom loyal to the Lannister crown at this point is the Reach, and before recently, they were in open rebellion too. By accepting B, House Baratheon is the rightful royal house having conquered and deposed House Targaryen. Lannister has yet to conquer the Iron Throne in anything but name while the vast majority of the country is either in direct or indirect rebellion. This makes Stannis the rightful king and his is the legitimate claim by the lawful line of succession.
Iron Islands aren't part of the 7 kingdoms. You listed 7 kingdoms as being loyal to the Lannisters but you forgot that the Westerlands (Lannisters) are also a kingdom which would add up to 8.
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United States43546 Posts
People in the show topic are talking about how absolutely devoted Shae is to Tyrion. Looks like they've fucked the Tywin/Tyrion reveal. There are twists and then there are "that made no sense in the context of what you've shown us about the character".
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On May 30 2013 00:53 KwarK wrote:
People in the show topic are talking about how absolutely devoted Shae is to Tyrion. Looks like they've fucked the Tywin/Tyrion reveal. There are twists and then there are "that made no sense in the context of what you've shown us about the character".
I think most people suspected that Tywin kills Shae and Tyrion kills Tywin for revnge. To think they'd let it play out like it did in the book was little more than desperate hope.
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United States43546 Posts
It's such a fundamental part of Tyrion's character development I can't see how that wouldn't completely fuck it up. His whoring etc are all built on the "only a whore after my money could love me" shit and the betrayal by Shae who turns out to be exactly what she claims to be, a whore, combined with his wife not being a whore after all is behind a massive change in his character, worldview and objectives. It'd be like Jaime keeping his hand.
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Well they showed Tyrion giving Shae a very expensive necklace. It could be a hint that Tyrion will strangle Shae with this necklace similar to the books. So at this point we can't be sure how it will turn out which is a feeling you don't get very often as book reader. Early in season 4 it should be more clear in which direction it will go.
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On May 30 2013 01:44 KwarK wrote:
It's such a fundamental part of Tyrion's character development I can't see how that wouldn't completely fuck it up. His whoring etc are all built on the "only a whore after my money could love me" shit and the betrayal by Shae who turns out to be exactly what she claims to be, a whore, combined with his wife not being a whore after all is behind a massive change in his character, worldview and objectives. It'd be like Jaime keeping his hand.
I absolutely agree with everything you said. I just feel that the writers are gonna go in that durection with Tyrion, even if it's gonna suck for book readers (and possibly leave TV viewers confused about his actions)
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On May 29 2013 23:18 DragonLord wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2013 23:06 karazax wrote:On May 29 2013 22:24 moopie wrote:
They portray him terribly in the show (after season 1). They turned a character who's smart, secretive and calculating into a mustache twirling villain. Yep Littlefinger on the show is one of the least accurate adaptations. He should be more like Ben Linus from Lost or Verbal Kint from the Usual Suspects. He looks like a relatively harmless pawn in the game at the start, but turns out to be much, much more. But since the show makes him so transparent in his motivations it just doesn't work as well. Finding out that it was Littlefinger behind Ser Dontas should be a major reveal, when you think Sansa is perhaps finally getting "saved". Having him kill Dontas shows he is more dangerous than just a corrupt politician. Baelish should be one of the smartest and most secretive players in the game, but the show makes him more of an over reaching pimp who likes to blert his intentions out any chance he gets. Thats not really the actors fault though. I was only saying that the actor playing him fitted the description of him in my head.
I don't blame the actor at all, and I agree that he generally fits the physical description. Honestly I can say the same thing about just about every character including Jon Snow, and Dany in season 2, being capable actors with terrible scenes written for them that any actor would struggle to do anything with. Writing wise though, Littlefinger just doesn't match up well at all with his book counter part.
As for Tyrion and Shae, it's too early to say what they will do. On the one hand I agree that it will be tougher to make Shae all about the money only with the way the TV show has written her so far, but on the other hand they did give her that gold chain to be chocked with, and they did tell the story of Tyrion's first wife already.
The whole driving reasons for Tyrion snapping and killing Tywin was the combination of just finding out that Tysha actually wasn't a whore from Jamie moments prior, finding Shae in Tywin's bed after all his anti-whore rhetoric, Tywin not even remembering what happened to Tysha, who was the only woman who had ever loved Tyrion and not his money, and then Tywin basicly daring Tyrion to kill him by provoking him over and over when he had a loaded crossbow aimed at him. Plus, Shae's betrayal is a huge part of the trial and in shaping Tyrion's character going forward. Also the truth about Tysha kills Tyrion's relationship with Jamie from that point on.
Just having Tyrion kill Tywin as revenge for killing Shae would be incredibly shallow in comparison, but it wouldnt' be the first time they did something like that. But to swing back closer to the books isn't impossible yet. Either way I will be glad to see TV Shae gone.
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"Where whores go"
Is this some sort of riddle that you have to repeat ad nauseum before it makes any sense?
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I don't see how Tyrion's character could possibly work if they fudge Shae's death. I mean, the TV show already told us the tale of Tysha.
Iron islands and Riverlands were one kingdom until Black Harren got roasted in Harrenhal.
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On May 30 2013 01:00 Vorenius wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2013 00:53 KwarK wrote:
People in the show topic are talking about how absolutely devoted Shae is to Tyrion. Looks like they've fucked the Tywin/Tyrion reveal. There are twists and then there are "that made no sense in the context of what you've shown us about the character". I think most people suspected that Tywin kills Shae and Tyrion kills Tywin for revnge. To think they'd let it play out like it did in the book was little more than desperate hope.
I don't think they are going to butch it in the show. We have already been introduced to a golden chain for Shae, and a very awsome crossbow in the hands of Joffrey.
It will probably feel out of character for both Tywin and Shae for the show watchers, but it also did for me in the book when that scene unfolded. Tyrion getting at Tywin I could perfectly understand after all he had been through, but Shae made no sense in his bed. It has been speculated (or already confirmed? I can't remember) that Shae was somehow drugged and planted there by Varys to make shit hit the fan, which might be/is the reason why it feels out of character.
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On May 30 2013 02:27 daemir wrote:
I don't see how Tyrion's character could possibly work if they fudge Shae's death. I mean, the TV show already told us the tale of Tysha.
Iron islands and Riverlands were one kingdom until Black Harren got roasted in Harrenhal.
have they? doesnt that come up when jaime frees tyrion which then he gets super pissed and tells jaime he killed joffery and cersei fucking moon boy for all he knows. its confusing as hell, does he want the credit for killing joffery? (as he tells many people) or does he just not give a single fuck anymore?
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On May 30 2013 02:47 Ender985 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2013 01:00 Vorenius wrote:On May 30 2013 00:53 KwarK wrote:
People in the show topic are talking about how absolutely devoted Shae is to Tyrion. Looks like they've fucked the Tywin/Tyrion reveal. There are twists and then there are "that made no sense in the context of what you've shown us about the character". I think most people suspected that Tywin kills Shae and Tyrion kills Tywin for revnge. To think they'd let it play out like it did in the book was little more than desperate hope. I don't think they are going to butch it in the show. We have already been introduced to a golden chain for Shae, and a very awsome crossbow in the hands of Joffrey. It will probably feel out of character for both Tywin and Shae for the show watchers, but it also did for me in the book when that scene unfolded. Tyrion getting at Tywin I could perfectly understand after all he had been through, but Shae made no sense in his bed. It has been speculated (or already confirmed? I can't remember) that Shae was somehow drugged and planted there by Varys to make shit hit the fan, which might be/is the reason why it feels out of character.
Isn't that a little bit far fetched?
I always thought that book-Shae is more childish/naive than TV's Shae and was somewhat more of a hedonist whore. I suppose that in the TV show they might use the jealousy angle more, with Shae not being very amused about Tyrion marrying Sansa.
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EPT
