EPT[TV/BOOK] *SPOILERS* Game of Thrones Discussion - Page 270
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SPOILER WARNING If you only watch the show, this thread will spoil you of future events in HBO's Game of Thrones. Thread contains discussion of all books of the series A Song of Ice and Fire Click Here for the spoiler-free thread. | ||
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Doublemint
Austria8703 Posts
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Plepis
Brazil1 Post
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Skilledblob
Germany3392 Posts
On April 21 2013 23:38 Plepis wrote: Speaking on Zombies, what do you guys think will become of Lord Commander Jon Snow? he'll survive and melisandre will make him her new champion | ||
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kleetzor
Germany360 Posts
On April 21 2013 23:50 Skilledblob wrote: he'll survive and melisandre will make him her new champion The origin of this theory is the attention she pays to him and the dream he has right? About being on top of the Wall I think, with a flaming or shining sword. | ||
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ACrow
Germany6583 Posts
On April 22 2013 00:22 kleetzor wrote: The origin of this theory is the attention she pays to him and the dream he has right? About being on top of the Wall I think, with a flaming or shining sword. Yes. I'd prefer if he stayed away from Melisandre, I don't like her at all. I'd love if the R+L=J theory was true, and he somehow ended up as one of Daenerys' Riders in the end... So excited for the next book, I hope we'll get to it next year! | ||
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BallinWitStalin
1177 Posts
I just finished S2E10, and we see the Others for the first time. I am a little disspointed with their depiction. The book described them as being clad in scale (heavily armoured), and I always pictured them with a sort of dark, cold nobility. But the show portrays them as naked, loincloth wearing barbarians. Makes them seem a lot less fearful. What's more formidable, some random white looking dude wearing a loincloth and carrying a shitty spear that yells random zombie screams, or a fully armoured, quiet speaking creature with a badass ice-like sword who speaks an undecipherable language, but who you can tell carries a complete disdain for all life? | ||
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moopie
12605 Posts
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Irrelevant Label
United States596 Posts
On April 22 2013 01:41 BallinWitStalin wrote: Okay, so I gotta say, I am enjoying watching the show. I have been a big fan of the books for a long time (started reading when it was only GoT and CoK). So this is a minor detail, not really a huge deal, but just something I'm a little.....disappointed by. I just finished S2E10, and we see the Others for the first time. I am a little disspointed with their depiction. The book described them as being clad in scale (heavily armoured), and I always pictured them with a sort of dark, cold nobility. But the show portrays them as naked, loincloth wearing barbarians. Makes them seem a lot less fearful. What's more formidable, some random white looking dude wearing a loincloth and carrying a shitty spear that yells random zombie screams, or a fully armoured, quiet speaking creature with a badass ice-like sword who speaks an undecipherable language, but who you can tell carries a complete disdain for all life? The way they look in the show will, if they have not skipped it and instead have moved it to the Crasters->Wall trip, also make the "slayer" scene a bit less clear on the effect of obsidian on them. It's one thing for smooth armor that has shown to repel steel blades to easily melt away at the touch of an obsidian dagger and another for whatever they can depict using these white walkers who look like flesh. They could make it some heavy CGI thing and it will work. I'm not doubting that they will ultimately stick with obsidian being important. They already showed the cache on the fist. They could have gone with the book depiction in which the simple fact that it worked to kill the other is enough to get the point across and have more CGI budget left for Drogon. I also would prefer the book appearance for story reasons. It helps with the notion that there is more to them. There is probably more going on here than just "ahhh, ice demon things that want to kill everything!...and it is really cold!". This isn't LotR. There are not good and evil in GRRMs story, and I am inclined to think that applies to the ice and fire parts as well as the human ones. *insert speculation about Bloodraven's purposes for Bran and everything about Coldhands* The smooth, sleek depiction made them seem more ordered and sophisticated. "Iceman in a loincloth" is savage looking in a simple and primitive way. The book depiction also contributed to the sense of things being complicated rather than "good vs. evil" by helping add that "order" to the things that ice might represent. It is similar to how cold preserves and fire consumes. From a "things humans tend to choose to value as good or bad morally" standpoint there seems to be things that are good and bad on both sides of the ice and fire question. Or they are in the books at least, where the others are not just a frozen zombie apocalypse. It isn't clear yet in the show and this opportunity to present it has been missed. Much like siding with the Starks because they are presented as the protagonists in book 1, the inclination to side with fire might be more a matter of which side has been allowed to show their point of view. Keep in mind that the main champion of the side we've been led to identify with is Melisandre. I wouldn't trust her with basic logical operations, let alone take her advice on world view. I'd trust Bloodraven to have an interesting and informed perspective though. If he is somewhere in the 'middle' or even on some minority faction with 'the other side' there is probably a good chance they have a point and are not just a zombie apocalypse. Given that this is GRR and not JRR, something along these lines seems nearly assured. Would he really turn it into a big battle of good and evil at the end? Edit: Forget my long winded BS, Moopie said all that needs to be said on the topic. | ||
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SpiZe
Canada3640 Posts
With Jon's (temporary ?) death at the hands of his former brother, this leaves the situation at the wall in a pretty ... explosive situation. On one hand, we have the Night's Watch, which will be pretty divided after the events, I mean more than half sided with Jon to elect him Commander, have they not ? Even if he lost some support, he must still have some left. And even his murder... it couldn't have been planed. It was a spur of the moment thing. Marsh and his friends leaves the room. Jon exchanges like 2 sentence with Tormund, he leaves the room to go see the Queen, hears Wun Wun screams. Gets murdered in front of dozens of witnesses (even though the scene is described as chaotic, some must have seen what happened). Say you are a member of the Night's Watch. Your commander gets murdered in front of you. What do you do ? It takes only one to draw his sword and start a bloodbath. Jon had two guys with him, were they killed as well ? This is crucial. Then you have the Queen's men, which will be caught in the crossfire should something happen, they are pretty much irrelevant. Last, there is the wildlings. My comprehension towards the wildling is often lacking but I will try my best. I cannot guess what the ones present will do. The big question is : what will Tormund do. Did he hear Wun Wun scream ? Was he on his way ? If word of what happen reach him soon enough what will he do ? My comprehension of the relation between Tormund and Jon is that they are friends despite everything. Well at least we know that Jon likes him but we don't know what Tormund really thinks of him. Anyway it doesn't really matter. His deal was with Jon. I doubt he will be very open to negotiate with his killer, knowing that the killer despise the free folk and thinks his head should be put on a spike. He simply cannot allow that, which leaves, in my mind. Only one course of option : Seize control of the wall, then negotiate with Stannis. This choice becomes even more likely if Tormund considered Jon as his friend. So assuming Jon does get ressurected by Melisandre... in what world does he wake up ? Can Melissandre revives him before the chaos begins ? Anyone else feels like sharing their theories ? | ||
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Skilledblob
Germany3392 Posts
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ecstazy
Russian Federation59 Posts
On April 22 2013 05:01 Skilledblob wrote: if she revives him it will be like Dondarrion did it with other characters. This way GRRM wont have to make up a new resurrection ability and can instead use something allready established. If Jon has Targaryen blood (the L+R=J theory), she might be able to revive him as he was or even better. We know that Melisandre can use that blood for powerful magic so it won't be new. | ||
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itkovian
United States1763 Posts
After she read the part where Lady is killed, and realized how brutal GRRM could be, she skipped to the end out of the book out of fear. She saw Ned was beheaded, and hasn't touched it since, hahaha On April 22 2013 01:41 BallinWitStalin wrote: Okay, so I gotta say, I am enjoying watching the show. I have been a big fan of the books for a long time (started reading when it was only GoT and CoK). So this is a minor detail, not really a huge deal, but just something I'm a little.....disappointed by. I just finished S2E10, and we see the Others for the first time. I am a little disspointed with their depiction. The book described them as being clad in scale (heavily armoured), and I always pictured them with a sort of dark, cold nobility. But the show portrays them as naked, loincloth wearing barbarians. Makes them seem a lot less fearful. What's more formidable, some random white looking dude wearing a loincloth and carrying a shitty spear that yells random zombie screams, or a fully armoured, quiet speaking creature with a badass ice-like sword who speaks an undecipherable language, but who you can tell carries a complete disdain for all life? On April 22 2013 02:34 moopie wrote: Agreed. Lich King > Zeratul. Good metaphor, hah. In the book, I almost imagine them as ice-ringwraiths. A lot more fearsome than they appear in the show. | ||
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BallinWitStalin
1177 Posts
On April 22 2013 03:19 Irrelevant Label wrote: The way they look in the show will, if they have not skipped it and instead have moved it to the Crasters->Wall trip, also make the "slayer" scene a bit less clear on the effect of obsidian on them. It's one thing for smooth armor that has shown to repel steel blades to easily melt away at the touch of an obsidian dagger and another for whatever they can depict using these white walkers who look like flesh. They could make it some heavy CGI thing and it will work. I'm not doubting that they will ultimately stick with obsidian being important. They already showed the cache on the fist. They could have gone with the book depiction in which the simple fact that it worked to kill the other is enough to get the point across and have more CGI budget left for Drogon. I also would prefer the book appearance for story reasons. It helps with the notion that there is more to them. There is probably more going on here than just "ahhh, ice demon things that want to kill everything!...and it is really cold!". This isn't LotR. There are not good and evil in GRRMs story, and I am inclined to think that applies to the ice and fire parts as well as the human ones. *insert speculation about Bloodraven's purposes for Bran and everything about Coldhands* The smooth, sleek depiction made them seem more ordered and sophisticated. "Iceman in a loincloth" is savage looking in a simple and primitive way. The book depiction also contributed to the sense of things being complicated rather than "good vs. evil" by helping add that "order" to the things that ice might represent. It is similar to how cold preserves and fire consumes. From a "things humans tend to choose to value as good or bad morally" standpoint there seems to be things that are good and bad on both sides of the ice and fire question. Or they are in the books at least, where the others are not just a frozen zombie apocalypse. It isn't clear yet in the show and this opportunity to present it has been missed. Much like siding with the Starks because they are presented as the protagonists in book 1, the inclination to side with fire might be more a matter of which side has been allowed to show their point of view. Keep in mind that the main champion of the side we've been led to identify with is Melisandre. I wouldn't trust her with basic logical operations, let alone take her advice on world view. I'd trust Bloodraven to have an interesting and informed perspective though. If he is somewhere in the 'middle' or even on some minority faction with 'the other side' there is probably a good chance they have a point and are not just a zombie apocalypse. Given that this is GRR and not JRR, something along these lines seems nearly assured. Would he really turn it into a big battle of good and evil at the end? Edit: Forget my long winded BS, Moopie said all that needs to be said on the topic. Yeah, I think the difference between the barbarian depiction and the armour-clad depiction is that when they're clad in armour and menacingly quiet, they seem a lot more cold and calculated. If they're capable of producing advanced technology (armour/blades) there's clearly a level of sophistication and intelligence they've achieved as a culture, which has implications for a well thought out plan of some kind that we don't really have any idea of yet. But when you've got a half naked dude with a spear screaming as he attacks en masse barbarian style with a horde, it just seems less menacingly calculated. In the books it always seems like the Others have a "plan" of some kind, everything they do seems thought out and calculated, and you only get hints that there's a sort of "dark intelligence" (which I agree, will probably turn out "grey" by the end of the series) at work. It's hard to think of barbarians as having the ability to create an intricate plan other than "rush in en masse and kill stuff". | ||
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DeepElemBlues
United States5079 Posts
Just because Stannis is my favorite character and I don't want him to be the wight-king  Also because I think it'd be a cool twist that might even break the internet from all the fanboy rage  | ||
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Zozo
Brazil2579 Posts
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DeepElemBlues
United States5079 Posts
On April 22 2013 08:13 Zozo wrote: So... I probably missed it a hint somewhere but, who has Longclaw now? I keep thinking of the many options and future issues but maybe there is an answer already. If Jon is dead dead or at least is off his feet for a while, probably one of the Queen's knights. Or Melisandre might take possession of it to keep it safe for Jon when he comes back or for whatever reason. I just can't imagine anyone other than Melisandre being able to tell one of the Queen's knights "No, you can't have it" and not getting killed instantly. | ||
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Redox
Germany24794 Posts
On April 22 2013 08:08 DeepElemBlues wrote: I still hope (more than believe) that Melisandre will give Jon the kiss of life, he'll wake back up as kinda-sorta-undead, and the Others will take control of him and turn him into the wight-king. Just because Stannis is my favorite character and I don't want him to be the wight-king Also because I think it'd be a cool twist that might even break the internet from all the fanboy rage Imagine the rage if Jon is just buried and never mentioned again. :D | ||
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BallinWitStalin
1177 Posts
On April 22 2013 08:42 Redox wrote: Imagine the rage if Jon is just buried and never mentioned again. :D That would just be mean on GRRM's part. Having Eddard beheaded was shocking, but that was it's point. To set up Jon for so long, to hint at his backstory and importance, to create this entire quasi-mythos around that one character, and then to just kill him, bury him, and say "that's it" would just be.....confusing. | ||
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tshi
United States2495 Posts
On April 22 2013 05:34 itkovian wrote: I tried to get my mom to read game of thrones. After she read the part where Lady is killed, and realized how brutal GRRM could be, she skipped to the end out of the book out of fear. She saw Ned was beheaded, and hasn't touched it since, hahaha ROFL. That's great, lol! | ||
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feanor1
United States1899 Posts
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