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SPOILER WARNING If you only watch the show, this thread will spoil you of future events in HBO's Game of Thrones. Thread contains discussion of all books of the series A Song of Ice and FireClick Here for the spoiler-free thread. |
On April 09 2013 00:26 TheFish7 wrote:
What was the deal with that Cat scene? (Everyone in the spoiler-free thread seems to have liked it)
I thought I remember a similar scene from the books where Cat laments wishing death upon Jon as a child, but I don't ever remember her saying she felt like his mother.
Don't recall Cat saying anything of the sort in the books either. My guess is that it's new to the TV series.
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It was actually polar opposite to how she felt in the books. I understood cutting "It should have been you" the last time Catelyn sees Jon before he leaves when Bran is still unconcious and may die. Without knowing her thoughts like in the book it was argueable that it was too harsh of a line when viewers didn't have much of an idea about her character yet and she was under extreme emotional distress. I could even potentially buy Cat feeling some guilt if Jon had ever gotten sick and almost died after she wished that on him. Still that is a far cry from actually feeling like she is his mother (she emphasizes that Talisa can't help her because only the mother can make the ward for their child), and feeling like all this is her fault for not being more of a mother to Jon. In reality she resented Jon because he was a daily reminder of her husband's infidelity. No one in that society would have expected a noble woman to play mother to her husband's bastards and the whole thing would have been a social embarassment. Keep in mind that the whole society had a bastard complex. Bastards are frequently considered evil, flawed, and treacherous. So it was a pretty long scene to add a bunch of material that is opposite of the impressions we are given in the book.
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Some more surprisingly accurate predictions from the other thread..
On April 09 2013 01:36 IamVirGin wrote:
The Bolton bastard burned Winterfell and captured Theon is my prediction.
On April 09 2013 01:36 IamVirGin wrote:
I think Joffrey might die, perhaps so we can see more of his younger brother (I don't even know his name) although I really hope he doesn't.
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On April 08 2013 16:00 Enhancer_ wrote:
- Queen of Thorns is pretty spot on.
- Jojen is perfect.
- Meera is cool.
- Shae sucks.
Absolutely. Why they elected to include such a terrible, peevish teenage-drama dialogue is beyond me.
It belitters (sic) Tyrion's as much as Shae's character and is maybe the first unsatisfactory acting I've seen from Warrick Davis.
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As I recall, the "similar" Cat chapter that the scene is referring to, she just dwells on how much she absolutely despises Jon. I don't think there was any mention of her hating her inability to love him...? I did read that book some years ago and read through her chapters particularly fast because she annoyed me so damn much, so I could be wrong...
Thoros is definitely poorly casted imo. The books always portrayed him as a big man, I always thought of him as another version of Strong Belwas with flaming swords and red robes (speaking of Strong Belwas, where da faq is he?), and once he became the anti-dementor, he was saggy and sunken.
Shae-Tyrion scenes were shitty as usual. The show portrayal of Shae has always been terrible. I can't wait until he strangles her with that damn necklace.
No bloody mummers sucks but it is still possible that they show up later. Arya HAS to kill the Tickler damnit... that scene was awesome in the books.
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On April 08 2013 13:15 StyLeD wrote:
Scene between Joff and Marg was to show how women get power in GoT. They say whatever the king wants to hear, and manipulates them. If king is a sadist? Encourage the sadism, Like crossbows? Oooh me too, King wants to kill gay people, then go right ahead! etc.
Yes... and no.
In fact, I interpreted the whole crossbow bit as a way of distracting Joffrey away from wanting to kill gays: she is bound to know her brother is one! The reason is because you can see her fright when he says that, but she is clever and knows that outright saying she thinks that is brutish will just cause Joffrey to mistrust her and in a display of power enforce that law (he is also bound to know about Loras and said that just to test her loyalty).
So.. the whole crossbow scene is to manipulate Joffrey, gain his trust and divert his attention away from killing her brother. The scene was rather well done, as was the other Margaery scene: the queen of thorns was magnificent 
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On April 09 2013 02:10 kafkaesque wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 16:00 Enhancer_ wrote:
- Queen of Thorns is pretty spot on.
- Jojen is perfect.
- Meera is cool.
- Shae sucks. Absolutely. Why they elected to include such a terrible, peevish teenage-drama dialogue is beyond me. It belitters (sic) Tyrion's as much as Shae's character and is maybe the first unsatisfactory acting I've seen from Warrick Davis.
Shame on you. I presume you mean Peter Dinklage.
Other than that, I agree that the whole scene was sub-par. It was pretty much the only scene of the episode that I didn't like, though, so /shrug 
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On April 09 2013 00:36 c0ldfusion wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2013 00:26 TheFish7 wrote:
What was the deal with that Cat scene? (Everyone in the spoiler-free thread seems to have liked it)
I thought I remember a similar scene from the books where Cat laments wishing death upon Jon as a child, but I don't ever remember her saying she felt like his mother. Don't recall Cat saying anything of the sort in the books either. My guess is that it's new to the TV series.
I don't think it departed far from the books: she never says she felt like his mother. She said she promised the gods she would, but found herself incapable of loving him like a mother. In other words: she still resents Jon, as is consistent with both previous scenes from the show and book. Anyway, we all know why Cat needs some screen time this season 
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On April 09 2013 02:24 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2013 00:36 c0ldfusion wrote:On April 09 2013 00:26 TheFish7 wrote:
What was the deal with that Cat scene? (Everyone in the spoiler-free thread seems to have liked it)
I thought I remember a similar scene from the books where Cat laments wishing death upon Jon as a child, but I don't ever remember her saying she felt like his mother. Don't recall Cat saying anything of the sort in the books either. My guess is that it's new to the TV series. I don't think it departed far from the books: she never says she felt like his mother. She said she promised the gods she would, but found herself incapable of loving him like a mother. In other words: she still resents Jon, as is consistent with both previous scenes from the show and book. Anyway, we all know why Cat needs some screen time this season
If the ward can only be made by a child's mother and she makes one for Jon Snow, that means she felt like Jon's mother, even if it was only for the period that he was in danger of dying. Even temporarily feeling like Jon's mother is a huge contradiction. As is feeling guilty about not full filling her promise to the gods to become a mother to Jon, and blaming all this bad stuff happening to her family as some sort of punishment for that. This quote explains it pretty well:
Westeros.org wrote:
The whole point of Catelyn Stark refusing to do anything more but tolerate Jon Snow’s presence—and that unwillingly—is that she is not his mother, and in Westeros she does not have a social or moral obligation to be his mother. She is not his step-mother, he is not her step-son—that’s not how things work in the Seven Kingdoms. Might a young Catelyn have prayed for the gods to contrive to send Jon away? Sure. Might she even have prayed for his death? I’m dubious, but in a moment of weakness even the god-fearing might do as much, so lets say it might happen. Would she regret having done so? Absolutely. But would she at any moment have considered herself a mother to Jon and responsible for him in some way? Never. Would she have put the inheritance of her own children at risk by urging Ned to legitimize Jon? Never, ever.
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On April 09 2013 02:54 karazax wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2013 02:24 Acrofales wrote:On April 09 2013 00:36 c0ldfusion wrote:On April 09 2013 00:26 TheFish7 wrote:
What was the deal with that Cat scene? (Everyone in the spoiler-free thread seems to have liked it)
I thought I remember a similar scene from the books where Cat laments wishing death upon Jon as a child, but I don't ever remember her saying she felt like his mother. Don't recall Cat saying anything of the sort in the books either. My guess is that it's new to the TV series. I don't think it departed far from the books: she never says she felt like his mother. She said she promised the gods she would, but found herself incapable of loving him like a mother. In other words: she still resents Jon, as is consistent with both previous scenes from the show and book. Anyway, we all know why Cat needs some screen time this season If the ward can only be made by a child's mother and she makes one for Jon Snow, that means she felt like Jon's mother, even if it was only for the period that he was in danger of dying. Even temporarily feeling like Jon's mother is a huge contradiction. As is feeling guilty about not full filling her promise to the gods to become a mother to Jon, and blaming all this bad stuff happening to her family as some sort of punishment for that. This quote explains it pretty well: Show nested quote + Westeros.org wrote:
The whole point of Catelyn Stark refusing to do anything more but tolerate Jon Snow’s presence—and that unwillingly—is that she is not his mother, and in Westeros she does not have a social or moral obligation to be his mother. She is not his step-mother, he is not her step-son—that’s not how things work in the Seven Kingdoms. Might a young Catelyn have prayed for the gods to contrive to send Jon away? Sure. Might she even have prayed for his death? I’m dubious, but in a moment of weakness even the god-fearing might do as much, so lets say it might happen. Would she regret having done so? Absolutely. But would she at any moment have considered herself a mother to Jon and responsible for him in some way? Never. Would she have put the inheritance of her own children at risk by urging Ned to legitimize Jon? Never, ever.
I didn't like the monologue much myself, and was a bit puzzled by it. But I just shrugged it off as not all that important in the grand scheme of things. Show Catelyn is not book Catelyn, and show Westeros is not book Westeros. Complaining that book Catelyn would have never said something that show Catelyn said isn't going to get us anywhere. And in the show, all these implications of being a bastard and what it all means for bastards, their family and so on is not nearly as well established as in the show. In fact, they seem to be downplaying the whole thing quite a bit compared to the books.
So while Catelyn's little speech makes no sense compared to what we know from the books, it's not nearly as contradictory based on the internal logic of the show itself. Maybe nobody cares all that much about bastards in the show. Maybe the values of family aren't as strong as they are in the show. So far, they haven't tried very hard to stay true to the books regarding these issues, and perhaps that's done intentionally so.
Then again, perhaps not, and they'll point out how bloody important family is in the future, and how lowly bastards are seen. But so far, that hasn't happened.
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Live2Win
United States6657 Posts
On April 09 2013 02:02 Conti wrote:Some more surprisingly accurate predictions from the other thread.. Show nested quote +On April 09 2013 01:36 IamVirGin wrote:
The Bolton bastard burned Winterfell and captured Theon is my prediction.
Show nested quote +On April 09 2013 01:36 IamVirGin wrote:
I think Joffrey might die, perhaps so we can see more of his younger brother (I don't even know his name) although I really hope he doesn't.
yeah I can't tell if it's a troll post or just really good guesses... My phantom ban-finger is itching...
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On April 09 2013 04:41 Live2Win wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2013 02:02 Conti wrote:Some more surprisingly accurate predictions from the other thread.. On April 09 2013 01:36 IamVirGin wrote:
The Bolton bastard burned Winterfell and captured Theon is my prediction.
On April 09 2013 01:36 IamVirGin wrote:
I think Joffrey might die, perhaps so we can see more of his younger brother (I don't even know his name) although I really hope he doesn't. yeah I can't tell if it's a troll post or just really good guesses... My phantom ban-finger is itching...
See if they've written in this thread before. I actually enjoy hiding spoilers in puns sometimes in that thread.
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On April 08 2013 21:34 dmnum wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 21:24 Thorakh wrote:On April 08 2013 17:54 dmnum wrote:
Fuck Ramsay looks so promising. When he said to Theon he was sent by his sister to rescue him it gave me chills. Perfect characterization. Wait, that was Ramsay? Yes, that was Iwan Rheon(The actor who's playing Ramsay).
Lol I had no idea that was Ramsey. It actually makes the scenes so much better when you know that.
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I some what agree that it won't really matter too much to non-readers for TV Catelyn to be significantly different; so many other characters are at least as changed if not more so. It's just sort of annoying to make up an entirely new scene to add something directly contrary to the books when so many other scenes have be be cut due to lack of time. I'm sure some TV viewers will take her regrets literally (ie all these bad things that are happening to the Starks literally are happening because of Catelyn's broken promise to the gods regarding Jon). It was fairly well acted, I just don't see the point of making it up when you have so much good material to pick from the book that you don't have time to show.
On April 09 2013 04:41 Live2Win wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2013 02:02 Conti wrote:Some more surprisingly accurate predictions from the other thread.. On April 09 2013 01:36 IamVirGin wrote:
The Bolton bastard burned Winterfell and captured Theon is my prediction.
On April 09 2013 01:36 IamVirGin wrote:
I think Joffrey might die, perhaps so we can see more of his younger brother (I don't even know his name) although I really hope he doesn't. yeah I can't tell if it's a troll post or just really good guesses... My phantom ban-finger is itching...
Those "guesses" are way too accurate in my opinion. I guess you would have to go back and look at the user's other posts, but there isn't much in the show that would make me think that Bolton's bastard burned Winterfell at this point. I guess the most observant viewers should know that the report from Roose was a lie, since clearly Theon was surrounded by northmen before getting knocked out, so the Ironborn didn't leave before they got there. To get both guesses right on the money, with no explanation for why he has these theories makes it suspicious.
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On April 09 2013 05:40 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 21:34 dmnum wrote:On April 08 2013 21:24 Thorakh wrote:On April 08 2013 17:54 dmnum wrote:
Fuck Ramsay looks so promising. When he said to Theon he was sent by his sister to rescue him it gave me chills. Perfect characterization. Wait, that was Ramsay? Yes, that was Iwan Rheon(The actor who's playing Ramsay). Lol I had no idea that was Ramsey. It actually makes the scenes so much better when you know that.
At first I thought it was really weird, but then I recognized him from some preview scenes and it made me giggle in anticipation.
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On April 09 2013 03:05 Conti wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2013 02:54 karazax wrote:On April 09 2013 02:24 Acrofales wrote:On April 09 2013 00:36 c0ldfusion wrote:On April 09 2013 00:26 TheFish7 wrote:
What was the deal with that Cat scene? (Everyone in the spoiler-free thread seems to have liked it)
I thought I remember a similar scene from the books where Cat laments wishing death upon Jon as a child, but I don't ever remember her saying she felt like his mother. Don't recall Cat saying anything of the sort in the books either. My guess is that it's new to the TV series. I don't think it departed far from the books: she never says she felt like his mother. She said she promised the gods she would, but found herself incapable of loving him like a mother. In other words: she still resents Jon, as is consistent with both previous scenes from the show and book. Anyway, we all know why Cat needs some screen time this season If the ward can only be made by a child's mother and she makes one for Jon Snow, that means she felt like Jon's mother, even if it was only for the period that he was in danger of dying. Even temporarily feeling like Jon's mother is a huge contradiction. As is feeling guilty about not full filling her promise to the gods to become a mother to Jon, and blaming all this bad stuff happening to her family as some sort of punishment for that. This quote explains it pretty well: Westeros.org wrote:
The whole point of Catelyn Stark refusing to do anything more but tolerate Jon Snow’s presence—and that unwillingly—is that she is not his mother, and in Westeros she does not have a social or moral obligation to be his mother. She is not his step-mother, he is not her step-son—that’s not how things work in the Seven Kingdoms. Might a young Catelyn have prayed for the gods to contrive to send Jon away? Sure. Might she even have prayed for his death? I’m dubious, but in a moment of weakness even the god-fearing might do as much, so lets say it might happen. Would she regret having done so? Absolutely. But would she at any moment have considered herself a mother to Jon and responsible for him in some way? Never. Would she have put the inheritance of her own children at risk by urging Ned to legitimize Jon? Never, ever. I didn't like the monologue much myself, and was a bit puzzled by it. But I just shrugged it off as not all that important in the grand scheme of things. Show Catelyn is not book Catelyn, and show Westeros is not book Westeros. Complaining that book Catelyn would have never said something that show Catelyn said isn't going to get us anywhere. And in the show, all these implications of being a bastard and what it all means for bastards, their family and so on is not nearly as well established as in the show. In fact, they seem to be downplaying the whole thing quite a bit compared to the books. So while Catelyn's little speech makes no sense compared to what we know from the books, it's not nearly as contradictory based on the internal logic of the show itself. Maybe nobody cares all that much about bastards in the show. Maybe the values of family aren't as strong as they are in the show. So far, they haven't tried very hard to stay true to the books regarding these issues, and perhaps that's done intentionally so. Then again, perhaps not, and they'll point out how bloody important family is in the future, and how lowly bastards are seen. But so far, that hasn't happened.
I think this is a pretty good explanation. In fact, the whole bastards being downplayed also somewhat explains why Jon never brought it up as his reason for joining Mance.
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They're doing a MUCH better job with this season than last so far. Diverting from the books doesn't necessarily mean bad, if done right. S2 was shit IMO, this is shaping up to be really good. Too bad Maggie Smith took ill though, would have been the perfect queen of thorns as she plays the part already in Downton.
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The way they are presenting Theon+Ramsay is amazing, should be great to watch. Jojen and Meera are pretty much perfect, couldn't ask for more, I'm glad they left it for this season. All the Tyrells+Roose got a great start aswell.
Thoros is the image I had of him when reading the first book, drinking and brawling, very Robertish. I feel like he was more serious when Arya first meets the brotherhood, but they may just use his "resurrections" to transform the priest as he goes.
Shae and Brienne are not so pleasing, at least Tyrion/Jaime save the scenes.
Cat+"Jeyne" scene was weird.
Can't wait for The Blackfish and Dondarrion
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On April 09 2013 06:09 Thrill wrote:
They're doing a MUCH better job with this season than last so far. Diverting from the books doesn't necessarily mean bad, if done right.
Non sense. The books are the infallible words of God RR Martin. They are the pinnacle of human story-telling and any deviation is blasphemy. Frankly anyone who portraits these falsehoods should be stoned.
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EPT
