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SPOILER WARNING If you only watch the show, this thread will spoil you of future events in HBO's Game of Thrones. Thread contains discussion of all books of the series A Song of Ice and FireClick Here for the spoiler-free thread. |
On April 02 2013 21:34 Doctorbeat wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2013 20:32 Telcontar wrote:
There is ABSOLUTELY no way that Jon is gone for good. GRRM has invested way too much time in him, and the wall, for the main POV of that region to just disappear from the story. You might point to Ned and say he is capable, but that was only one book and his death was a critical event in the story that unfolded. Jon's permanent death would have little impact on the overall plot and would indeed be quite meaningless. Rest assured, he will be back. My guess is, he will come back through warging or melisandre's magic, or even as a good wight, or a combination of those three. Jon, Tyrion and Dany are the main characters I would argue, I don't see any of them dying trivially. Anyone else is fair game, imo. Plus ADWD prologue = Chekhov's Gun. All the prologues have had a reveal of something mystical/magical (AGOT = White Walkers, ACOK = Melisandre's Magic, ASOS = White Walkers, AFFC = Alchemist/Jaqen's Magic). I don't see Tyrion or Dany dying before they get to Westeros again.
GRRM prologues should collectively be referred to as Chekhov's armory.
The one that is the farthest from coming to fruition is the AFFC prologue. Pending confirmation that Jon isn't exactly/entirely dead the others are all clear at this point. That Sam Tarly and a faceless man who once used the alias Jaqen are now roommates in the study/service of 'the crazy black sheep "wizard" maestar' is about the most ridiculous thing hanging unexplained in the story right now. I use ridiculous in a neutral to positive leaning sense here.
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Jon fell to his knees. He found the dagger's hilt and wrenched it free. In the cod night air the wound was smoking. "Ghost," he whispered. Pain washed over him. Stick them with the pointy end. When the third dagger took him between the shoulder blades, he gave a grunt and fell face-first into the snow. He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold . . .
Nothing about him being dead. Just a bunch of very carefully worded stuff that could possibly allude to Jon being Asor Ahai reborn or possibly warging into Ghost. We have no idea what happens with Wun Wun and Melisandre and the salt and smoke and blah blah etc etc...
Dat shit cray... I thought she was just a character they added so they could put some more sex scenes in
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I don't get why they rushed the Barristan-appearance so much and why he stabbed the scorpion with his dagger squatting down like a little bitch instead of crushing it with his bad-ass staff. 
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On April 03 2013 06:56 kafkaesque wrote:I don't get why they rushed the Barristan-appearance so much and why he stabbed the scorpion with his dagger squatting down like a little bitch instead of crushing it with his bad-ass staff.
I'm more disappointed that this might mean he will not be swatting down a certain seven foot mercenary captain like a little bitch using that same staff. His staff is the next harbor chain/"mormont's" raven. Why cut these things!
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On April 03 2013 09:07 Irrelevant Label wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2013 06:56 kafkaesque wrote:I don't get why they rushed the Barristan-appearance so much and why he stabbed the scorpion with his dagger squatting down like a little bitch instead of crushing it with his bad-ass staff. I'm more disappointed that this might mean he will not be swatting down a certain seven foot mercenary captain like a little bitch using that same staff. His staff is the next harbor chain/"mormont's" raven. Why cut these things!
It irks me too, but I understand why. There's only so much time, and if it's not those it'd be something we'd hate more!
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On April 03 2013 06:56 kafkaesque wrote:I don't get why they rushed the Barristan-appearance so much and why he stabbed the scorpion with his dagger squatting down like a little bitch instead of crushing it with his bad-ass staff.
I felt revealing Barristan already ruined the pacing of the story. I thought it built his character up better when he took the persona of Arstan Whitebeard, which allowed him to spy on Dany to check for "taints", and have a sense of mystery.
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On April 03 2013 09:09 PhoenixVoid wrote:
which allowed him to spy on Dany to check for "taints"
lol
On the other hand, having him revealed directly means there is no real betrayal to be compared to Mormont's.
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On April 30 2012 13:02 moopie wrote:
Oh, one change I didn't like is that Davos insists and convinces Stannis to not bring Melisandre to the Blackwater. In the book Stannis sent her back himself. The way its told in the show, Davos will be blamed when the battle goes south because Melisandre wasn't there.
ACoK: The red woman and her dark children would have no part of it. Stannis had shipped her back to Dragonstone with his bastard nephew Edric Storm. His captains and bannerman had insisted that a battlefield was no place for a woman. Only the queen's men had dissented, and then not loudly. All the same, the king had been on the point of refusing them until Lord Bryce Caron said "Your Grace, if the sorceress is with us, afterwards men will say it was her victory, not yours. They will say you owe your crown to her spells."
While Davos was certainly happy (at the time) that she wasn't coming, it wasn't his own doing that caused it. I expect fans of the show to blame poor Davos.
Totally called it.
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On April 03 2013 09:07 Irrelevant Label wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2013 06:56 kafkaesque wrote:I don't get why they rushed the Barristan-appearance so much and why he stabbed the scorpion with his dagger squatting down like a little bitch instead of crushing it with his bad-ass staff. I'm more disappointed that this might mean he will not be swatting down a certain seven foot mercenary captain like a little bitch using that same staff. His staff is the next harbor chain/"mormont's" raven. Why cut these things!
Considering the lack of Strong Belwas, Barry may very well have his time to shine. Referring to when he slays the Mereneese champion of course.
Or they could just give that role to Jorah, or even the ever so charming Daario 
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On April 03 2013 09:26 moopie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2013 09:09 PhoenixVoid wrote:
which allowed him to spy on Dany to check for "taints" lol On the other hand, having him revealed directly means there is no real betrayal to be compared to Mormont's.
And that is the biggest problem with the way they have done it.
Now you've reminded me of one of the other reasons it sucks that they, for some inevitably crazy reason because they sure have been happy to get her naked, cut the Qartheen dress. Ser grandfather's korean grand master level eye contact skills cannot be displayed. It's one slander after another against Barristan's awesomeness in the show.
The best part of his "resignation" gets cut, his great path from Kingsguard to Queensguard gets cut, his staff gets cut, his secret and more epic reveal gets cut, even the comic relief character that he squires for and then continues to "squire" for after revealing himself further establishing himself as the man gets cut...sigh.
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I can't really tell what that is. Two lions circling each other?
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On April 03 2013 09:42 itkovian wrote:I can't really tell what that is. Two lions circling each other?
Looks like that to me.
Shit, it's starting to look like this show theory isn't as farfetched as I originally thought.
edit: The Roose is loose comment had me giggling btw.
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On April 03 2013 09:38 Irrelevant Label wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2013 09:26 moopie wrote:On April 03 2013 09:09 PhoenixVoid wrote:
which allowed him to spy on Dany to check for "taints" lol On the other hand, having him revealed directly means there is no real betrayal to be compared to Mormont's. And that is the biggest problem with the way they have done it. Now you've reminded me of one of the other reasons it sucks that they, for some inevitably crazy reason because they sure have been happy to get her naked, cut the Qartheen dress. Ser grandfather's korean grand master level eye contact skills cannot be displayed. It's one slander after another against Barristan's awesomeness in the show. The best part of his "resignation" gets cut, his great path from Kingsguard to Queensguard gets cut, his staff gets cut, his secret and more epic reveal gets cut, even the comic relief character that he squires for and then continues to "squire" for after revealing himself further establishing himself as the man gets cut...sigh.
It is literally impossible to do the Barristan reveal in a visual medium, it's simply impossible. If you disagree, how would YOU do it on the show
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Exactly how GRRM* did it in the books. One of the fundamental building block sort of things that makes the show adaptation reasonably good is that it isn't dumbed down too much for a TV audience. Why not let them, or at least some of them who are paying attention and remember Barristan, know before Dany like readers did?
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Barristan's reason for hiding is because he wanted to make sure Dany was more Rhaegar than Aerys and the show has skipped a lot of the Targyren background. The Mad King is barely mentioned and viewers know near nothing on Targs that are not Dany or Viserys (or Jon.......) so his entire reasoning will fly over their heads. Yes a lot of great moments were cut but they weren't vital, Ser Grandpa will still have plenty of times to kick arse
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I don't think the reasoning has to be EXACTLY the same for why Barristan hid his identity. Selmy could have merely said he wanted to see what type of ruler she was before he revealed himself and that explains the situation fine for casual viewers. There are plenty of tv shows and movies where the audience knows a character is really a spy, traitor, undercover cop, ect and it still works fine as long as the other characters don't know. I imagine many non-readers probably didn't recognize who he was before he revealed himself, even with Selmy being in the pre-show recap.
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I don't doubt that he will still have his chances to be awesome.
Viewers know plenty for the reason to stand. All they really need to know is that Aerys was mad, which is quite well known with the "mad king" title being the primary term used to refer to him. This while Barristan was already established as having sympathy for that view, if not holding it outright, despite being a Targaryen loyalist. Cersei even already quoted the "every time a Targaryen is born, the gods flip a coin" Westerosi mini-parable regarding the Targaryen line.
It is very likely to come up despite his lack of having watched her in secret. His status as her other, and better, source of education on Westeros was the basis for much of their post-revelation conversations.
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I know most of the discussion in this thread has been about the adaptation of the books to the show, but on the topic of future books, am I the only one who hopes Ser Barristan finally reveals to Dany how batshit crazy her father was and that all of the ideas of him and the people (mainly of the lords/families) of Westeros is moronic. I know he kept hinting and telling her little things before they decide that now is not the best time, but I just have this feeling the GRRM will kill off Barristan before he can educate her on the subject. And if she doesn't understand she'll just go into the Seven Kingdoms with the same blood-thirsty dream of her brother of destroying the families of all the Usurper houses out of spite.
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On April 03 2013 14:55 Brosy wrote:
I know most of the discussion in this thread has been about the adaptation of the books to the show, but on the topic of future books, am I the only one who hopes Ser Barristan finally reveals to Dany how batshit crazy her father was and that all of the ideas of him and the people (mainly of the lords/families) of Westeros is moronic. I know he kept hinting and telling her little things before they decide that now is not the best time, but I just have this feeling the GRRM will kill off Barristan before he can educate her on the subject. And if she doesn't understand she'll just go into the Seven Kingdoms with the same blood-thirsty dream of her brother of destroying the families of all the Usurper houses out of spite.
I completely agree. This is one of my greatest concerns as well. And one of the primary reasons I am so nervous about Barristan dying. Someone has to tell her its not all like she thinks it is in Westeros. It makes me angry that she thinks so poorly of Robert and Ned, yet seems to know so little about the atrocities her own father committed.
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EPT
