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SPOILER WARNING If you only watch the show, this thread will spoil you of future events in HBO's Game of Thrones. Thread contains discussion of all books of the series A Song of Ice and FireClick Here for the spoiler-free thread. |
The only thing I could think about while watching the Jon Snow/Mance scene was how much better Dominic West would have been as Mance.  They really changed that character's introduction massively from the playful style he was introduced in the books.
One of the strongest arguments of the "Young Griff being a Blackfyre" theory has a lot to do with the dragon's head inn story from book 4 iirc (potential foreshadowing there), as well as Young Griff potentially being the son of Illyrio and his 2nd wife (who is rumored to be a descendent of Blackfyre through the female line). I think it's a definite possibility given how abruptly the character was thrown in during the 5th book.
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All of the arguments for Aegon being a blackfyre mentioned on the previous page are nonsense .
First of all, Targaryens dont look much like their fathers, they all have a unique shade of purple eyes and different shades of silvergrey hair. Rhaegar didn't look anything like Aerys, does that make him a fake targ too?
The thing about "black or red, a dragon is still a dragon" is something illyrio says when asked by Tyrion why the GC would support a Targaryen. Its meant to indicate that argon is a Targaryen not a blackfyre.
And the golden company of this era consists of exiled knights who fought for the Targaryens in Roberts Rebellion, and their leader Jon Connington who also serves as Aegons adoptive father was one of Rhaegars best friends and a former hand of the king of aerys. Does this information indicate that they would have any basis of not wanting to help Rhaegars son? NO.
And lastly we dont learn that much about the blackfyre rebellion in ASoIaF books, they are mainly featured in dunk and egg and it would be pretty poor writing of GRRM to establish a central character from a house that we need to read a different series of books to really learn about,
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On April 02 2013 15:43 Reyne wrote:
All of the arguments for Aegon being a blackfyre mentioned on the previous page are nonsense .
First of all, Targaryens dont look much like their fathers, they all have a unique shade of purple eyes and different shades of silvergrey hair. Rhaegar didn't look anything like Aerys, does that make him a fake targ too?
The thing about "black or red, a dragon is still a dragon" is something illyrio says when asked by Tyrion why the GC would support a Targaryen. Its meant to indicate that argon is a Targaryen not a blackfyre.
And the golden company of this era consists of exiled knights who fought for the Targaryens in Roberts Rebellion, and their leader Jon Connington who also serves as Aegons adoptive father was one of Rhaegars best friends and a former hand of the king of aerys. Does this information indicate that they would have any basis of not wanting to help Rhaegars son? NO.
And lastly we dont learn that much about the blackfyre rebellion in ASoIaF books, they are mainly featured in dunk and egg and it would be pretty poor writing of GRRM to establish a central character from a house that we need to read a different series of books to really learn about,
The question isn't Targ vs Blackfyre, it is Targ v 'Other' with Blackfyre as one of the options under 'Other'. As a matter of semantics and a bit of a false synonym Blackfyre is thrown around as the other option. Unless he is legit the specifics of his own origin are irrelevant. The point is he is Illyrio and Varys' pawn.
In order regarding these issues: 1. Who said it was all about appearance? The issue of dissimilarity is brought up quite clearly in Connington's chapter. 2. The statement works both ways. That is the whole point of the statement. 3. The Golden Company does have some duality to it in it's modern incarnation as is discussed by characters directly in Dance, so? There really isn't a standard regarding "true Blackfyres" at this point since there cannot be any. Barristan ended their trueborn line, if such a thing ever mattered for a line based on bastards. The term Blackfyre either must be extinct or adapt, much like the GC itself, to describe anyone claiming to be a Targaryen much as the GC is now no longer the defacto army of the Blackfyres but rather a merc company for Westerosi knightly/noble outcasts. 4. Yep, but does that necessarily stop it? Bloodraven would like to have a word with anyone who says yes.
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On April 02 2013 15:43 Reyne wrote:
All of the arguments for Aegon being a blackfyre mentioned on the previous page are nonsense .
First of all, Targaryens dont look much like their fathers, they all have a unique shade of purple eyes and different shades of silvergrey hair. Rhaegar didn't look anything like Aerys, does that make him a fake targ too?
The thing about "black or red, a dragon is still a dragon" is something illyrio says when asked by Tyrion why the GC would support a Targaryen. Its meant to indicate that argon is a Targaryen not a blackfyre.
And the golden company of this era consists of exiled knights who fought for the Targaryens in Roberts Rebellion, and their leader Jon Connington who also serves as Aegons adoptive father was one of Rhaegars best friends and a former hand of the king of aerys. Does this information indicate that they would have any basis of not wanting to help Rhaegars son? NO.
And lastly we dont learn that much about the blackfyre rebellion in ASoIaF books, they are mainly featured in dunk and egg and it would be pretty poor writing of GRRM to establish a central character from a house that we need to read a different series of books to really learn about,
Circumstancial evidence aside, Quithe's prophecies do talk about a mummer's dragon, which can only interpreted in two ways, mummer meaning fake, or mummer's meaning Varrys's. And we do now all Quithe's prophecies or warnings are real so, yeah, im kinda sold on the Aegon being a BF or no targ at all. My onlt big concern is in that case, who's the 3rd head, the case for Tyrion stands on very weak legs
But ye, Targs dont have to look alike, Bittersteel had black hair, the crown prince Baelor Breakspear had black hair too. (and Jon too obviously) The silver hair-gene seems to be dominant, but not exclusive
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If not Aegon/Faegon, the third dragon could always be one of Robert's bastards (like Edric Storm perhaps), as they do possess traces of Targaryen lineage. Unlikely though.
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On April 02 2013 16:48 moopie wrote:
If not Aegon/Faegon, the third dragon could always be one of Robert's bastards (like Edric Storm perhaps), as they do possess traces of Targaryen lineage. Unlikely though.
them and half the realm. Martells have some dragon blood, Stannis does, all Robert's bastards do, and i think Dondarrion's squire too, he certainly has purple eyes. I really dont think they will pull an Edric Storm on us. Gendry is slightly more likely but still minimal chance. There are just almost no good potentials for the 3rd head at this point.
My theories for the 3rd head>
1. Tyrion, GRRM hinted towards "cutting" some Tyrion chapters which include some dreams, because if he lets them in that "takes him down a road he cant come back" or something similar. I have no idea which interview, i honestly saw like 50, might have been the Google one. But more than any real evidence, it would be just convinient having one of the main char's who's exactly at the right place as the 3rd head. Also, Tyrion and Viseryion rhyme :D
2. Aegon is a BF and the Dragons are fine with him.
3. The dragons die, and GRRM's face turns into a troll's
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Damn, I was writing up a reply to Reyne but I refreshed the page and Irrelevent label already replied to him.
Aegon/Faegon as a theory isn't even that farfetched compared to some that people have come up.
IIRC there is/was a theory about the "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell" quote and something to do with dragons or Others or sometthing.
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Zurich15366 Posts
On April 02 2013 13:39 IshinShishi wrote:
I completely agree with you itkovian, some changes were not only stupid, but completely unnecessary. The walking dead has progressively turned into a garbagecan of a show, I really hope GoT doesn't follow the same path.
The Walking Dead had turned into complete crap by the second episode already. Comparing that with Game Of Thrones is really insulting no matter how many changes they will still make.
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after leaving the last 10ish chapters of ADWD for the past 4 months I finally finished them. Gotta admit I'm pretty disappointed with the cliff hanger in Essos. Crushed that John Snow is dead. But was pretty happy with the epilogue.
is it worth it to read all the theories that people have for the next two books? or should I just leave it be?
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On April 02 2013 19:20 DaPyro wrote:
after leaving the last 10ish chapters of ADWD for the past 4 months I finally finished them. Gotta admit I'm pretty disappointed with the cliff hanger in Essos. Crushed that John Snow is dead. But was pretty happy with the epilogue.
is it worth it to read all the theories that people have for the next two books? or should I just leave it be?
for me, half the fun is to read those theories and try do prove or disprove them
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On April 02 2013 19:20 DaPyro wrote:
after leaving the last 10ish chapters of ADWD for the past 4 months I finally finished them. Gotta admit I'm pretty disappointed with the cliff hanger in Essos. Crushed that John Snow is dead. But was pretty happy with the epilogue.
is it worth it to read all the theories that people have for the next two books? or should I just leave it be?
Don't be, he probably isn't in one way or another. There's a buch of teories about it.
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He's most likely just dead enough to get out of his vows, but not so dead that he won't come back through warging and Melisandre.
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United Kingdom16710 Posts
There is ABSOLUTELY no way that Jon is gone for good. GRRM has invested way too much time in him, and the wall, for the main POV of that region to just disappear from the story. You might point to Ned and say he is capable, but that was only one book and his death was a critical event in the story that unfolded. Jon's permanent death would have little impact on the overall plot and would indeed be quite meaningless. Rest assured, he will be back. My guess is, he will come back through warging or melisandre's magic, or even as a good wight, or a combination of those three.
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On April 02 2013 20:32 Telcontar wrote:
There is ABSOLUTELY no way that Jon is gone for good. GRRM has invested way too much time in him, and the wall, for the main POV of that region to just disappear from the story. You might point to Ned and say he is capable, but that was only one book and his death was a critical event in the story that unfolded. Jon's permanent death would have little impact on the overall plot and would indeed be quite meaningless. Rest assured, he will be back. My guess is, he will come back through warging or melisandre's magic, or even as a good wight, or a combination of those three.
Jon, Tyrion and Dany are the main characters I would argue, I don't see any of them dying trivially. Anyone else is fair game, imo. Plus ADWD prologue = Chekhov's Gun. All the prologues have had a reveal of something mystical/magical (AGOT = White Walkers, ACOK = Melisandre's Magic, ASOS = White Walkers, AFFC = Alchemist/Jaqen's Magic).
I don't see Tyrion or Dany dying before they get to Westeros again.
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On April 02 2013 19:20 DaPyro wrote:
after leaving the last 10ish chapters of ADWD for the past 4 months I finally finished them. Gotta admit I'm pretty disappointed with the cliff hanger in Essos. Crushed that John Snow is dead. But was pretty happy with the epilogue.
is it worth it to read all the theories that people have for the next two books? or should I just leave it be?
I found reading the theories fun. It opened me to stuff that I missed while I was reading.
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On April 02 2013 21:34 Doctorbeat wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2013 20:32 Telcontar wrote:
There is ABSOLUTELY no way that Jon is gone for good. GRRM has invested way too much time in him, and the wall, for the main POV of that region to just disappear from the story. You might point to Ned and say he is capable, but that was only one book and his death was a critical event in the story that unfolded. Jon's permanent death would have little impact on the overall plot and would indeed be quite meaningless. Rest assured, he will be back. My guess is, he will come back through warging or melisandre's magic, or even as a good wight, or a combination of those three. Jon, Tyrion and Dany are the main characters I would argue, I don't see any of them dying trivially. Anyone else is fair game, imo. Plus ADWD prologue = Chekhov's Gun. All the prologues have had a reveal of something mystical/magical (AGOT = White Walkers, ACOK = Melisandre's Magic, ASOS = White Walkers, AFFC = Alchemist/Jaqen's Magic). I don't see Tyrion or Dany dying before they get to Westeros again.
they cant die before meeting each other. During all aDwD i was hoping a Dany-Tyrion meeting but never happened the interactions of this 3 characters would be great IMO, and also Dany-Jon have a lot of potencial
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United Kingdom16710 Posts
On April 03 2013 00:36 Topin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2013 21:34 Doctorbeat wrote:On April 02 2013 20:32 Telcontar wrote:
There is ABSOLUTELY no way that Jon is gone for good. GRRM has invested way too much time in him, and the wall, for the main POV of that region to just disappear from the story. You might point to Ned and say he is capable, but that was only one book and his death was a critical event in the story that unfolded. Jon's permanent death would have little impact on the overall plot and would indeed be quite meaningless. Rest assured, he will be back. My guess is, he will come back through warging or melisandre's magic, or even as a good wight, or a combination of those three. Jon, Tyrion and Dany are the main characters I would argue, I don't see any of them dying trivially. Anyone else is fair game, imo. Plus ADWD prologue = Chekhov's Gun. All the prologues have had a reveal of something mystical/magical (AGOT = White Walkers, ACOK = Melisandre's Magic, ASOS = White Walkers, AFFC = Alchemist/Jaqen's Magic). I don't see Tyrion or Dany dying before they get to Westeros again. they cant die before meeting each other. During all aDwD i was hoping a Dany-Tyrion meeting but never happened the interactions of this 3 characters would be great IMO, and also Dany-Jon have a lot of potencial
Especially if they turn out to be half-siblings. I have this notion that towards the end of the story, Jon will have the option of marrying his half-sister, Dany, and fully re-establishing the Targaryen line. He will refuse, and either go back to the wall or help raise the Stark house from the ashes, if he survives the invasion of the others, that is.
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On April 03 2013 00:45 Telcontar wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2013 00:36 Topin wrote:On April 02 2013 21:34 Doctorbeat wrote:On April 02 2013 20:32 Telcontar wrote:
There is ABSOLUTELY no way that Jon is gone for good. GRRM has invested way too much time in him, and the wall, for the main POV of that region to just disappear from the story. You might point to Ned and say he is capable, but that was only one book and his death was a critical event in the story that unfolded. Jon's permanent death would have little impact on the overall plot and would indeed be quite meaningless. Rest assured, he will be back. My guess is, he will come back through warging or melisandre's magic, or even as a good wight, or a combination of those three. Jon, Tyrion and Dany are the main characters I would argue, I don't see any of them dying trivially. Anyone else is fair game, imo. Plus ADWD prologue = Chekhov's Gun. All the prologues have had a reveal of something mystical/magical (AGOT = White Walkers, ACOK = Melisandre's Magic, ASOS = White Walkers, AFFC = Alchemist/Jaqen's Magic). I don't see Tyrion or Dany dying before they get to Westeros again. they cant die before meeting each other. During all aDwD i was hoping a Dany-Tyrion meeting but never happened the interactions of this 3 characters would be great IMO, and also Dany-Jon have a lot of potencial Especially if they turn out to be half-siblings. I have this notion that towards the end of the story, Jon will have the option of marrying his half-sister, Dany, and fully re-establishing the Targaryen line. He will refuse, and either go back to the wall or help raise the Stark house from the ashes, if he survives the invasion of the others, that is.
If Jon is part Targaryen (R+L), then Dany would be his aunt, not sister. Dany is Rhaegar's sister, and Jon would be Rhaegar's son.
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On April 03 2013 00:50 moopie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2013 00:45 Telcontar wrote:On April 03 2013 00:36 Topin wrote:On April 02 2013 21:34 Doctorbeat wrote:On April 02 2013 20:32 Telcontar wrote:
There is ABSOLUTELY no way that Jon is gone for good. GRRM has invested way too much time in him, and the wall, for the main POV of that region to just disappear from the story. You might point to Ned and say he is capable, but that was only one book and his death was a critical event in the story that unfolded. Jon's permanent death would have little impact on the overall plot and would indeed be quite meaningless. Rest assured, he will be back. My guess is, he will come back through warging or melisandre's magic, or even as a good wight, or a combination of those three. Jon, Tyrion and Dany are the main characters I would argue, I don't see any of them dying trivially. Anyone else is fair game, imo. Plus ADWD prologue = Chekhov's Gun. All the prologues have had a reveal of something mystical/magical (AGOT = White Walkers, ACOK = Melisandre's Magic, ASOS = White Walkers, AFFC = Alchemist/Jaqen's Magic). I don't see Tyrion or Dany dying before they get to Westeros again. they cant die before meeting each other. During all aDwD i was hoping a Dany-Tyrion meeting but never happened the interactions of this 3 characters would be great IMO, and also Dany-Jon have a lot of potencial Especially if they turn out to be half-siblings. I have this notion that towards the end of the story, Jon will have the option of marrying his half-sister, Dany, and fully re-establishing the Targaryen line. He will refuse, and either go back to the wall or help raise the Stark house from the ashes, if he survives the invasion of the others, that is. If Jon is part Targaryen (R+L), then Dany would be his aunt, not sister. Dany is Rhaegar's sister, and Jon would be Rhaegar's son.
In which case he would be (supposedly) Aegon's half brother. If Aegon really is who he says, and not a Blackfyre.
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EPT
