SPOILER WARNING If you only watch the show, this thread will spoil you of future events in HBO's Game of Thrones. Thread contains discussion of all books of the series A Song of Ice and Fire Click Here for the spoiler-free thread.
This is a book discussion thread with spoilers, so comparing it to the books is pretty expected isn't it? It's not like I'm nitpicking minor changes like Syrio and Tywin not being bald or expecting a word for word translation. I'm talking about entire character arcs being re-written and in some cases changed to the exact opposite of the books for no apparent reason.
I'm not even saying I hate the show. It's still decent as a stand alone show despite its flaws as an adaptation. It's just disappointing that the writers felt a need to change so much that could have been more faithful to many of the story lines with the same screen time, budget and casting. Cuts due to time, budget and casting I can accept as reasonable. Random changes like changing Loras from being convinced Brienne killed Renly to not even suspecting her I don't understand the benefit or reason behind though. That is a some what minor change that won't have an effect until the next time Loras sees Brienne, but it's just so random that it makes me wonder why change it?
On the positive side I thought Tyrion, Varys and Theon in season 2 were done really well overall despite the changes they made. I was fine with the changes to Margeary even though they were significant. Joffrey is almost perfect. Sansa did a good job. Most of the King's Landing story lines were great. Arya and Tywin's scenes were all well acted and generally entertaining as a standalone story despite the changes. I liked most of Stannis, Mellisandre and Davos scenes. The general cast and production values were exceptional. Episode 9 was the best out of either season. There were scenes in every episode that were great adpatations of book story lines. There are plenty of changes that I understand and even support as necessary. It's the good stuff that keeps me watching and hoping they can duplicate that goodness over more story lines in the show in the future.
Season 1 had quite a few changes too, but over all it was a good adaptation. Season 2 they decided to improvise too much and I think the show was worse off for it. Hopefully with book 3 split into 2 seasons they can work towards following the book closer. I know there will be some things that will annoy me but if it is closer to season 1 in faithfulness then I will be happy with the overall effort despite my nitpicks
I don't even disagree with most of your nitpickings, really. The books are better, period, and the show is still very much enjoyable. I've just long given up comparing a show or movie to its original. It's pointless. You're much better off pretending that it has nothing whatsoever to do with the source material.
On March 22 2013 01:41 karazax wrote: Random changes like changing Loras from being convinced Brienne killed Renly to not even suspecting her I don't understand the benefit or reason behind though. That is a some what minor change that won't have an effect until the next time Loras sees Brienne, but it's just so random that it makes me wonder why change it?
I'm just picking this one as an example. Why does this change even matter? Has Renly met Brienne ever again in the books (I honestly don't know, actually. Has he?) For the overall plot, this is entirely unimportant, and as such it was most likely scrapped because it would be seen as bad writing had they left it in. They would create tension between two characters that will remain unresolved since they will never meet again. If anything, it would make Renly look like a sexist idiot. It's an entirely justified change.
Season 1 had quite a few changes too, but over all it was a good adaptation. Season 2 they decided to improvise too much and I think the show was worse off for it. Hopefully with book 3 split into 2 seasons they can work towards following the book closer. I know there will be some things that will annoy me but if it is closer to season 1 in faithfulness then I will be happy with the overall effort despite my nitpicks
As I said previously, GRRM himself said there will be more and more changes coming forward. It's inevitable, and it will happen, and it will get worse. At least for those that compare every scene to the books.
On March 22 2013 01:55 Conti wrote: I don't even disagree with most of your nitpickings, really. The books are better, period, and the show is still very much enjoyable. I've just long given up comparing a show or movie to its original. It's pointless. You're much better off pretending that it has nothing whatsoever to do with the source material.
On March 22 2013 01:41 karazax wrote: Random changes like changing Loras from being convinced Brienne killed Renly to not even suspecting her I don't understand the benefit or reason behind though. That is a some what minor change that won't have an effect until the next time Loras sees Brienne, but it's just so random that it makes me wonder why change it?
I'm just picking this one as an example. Why does this change even matter? Has Renly met Brienne ever again in the books (I honestly don't know, actually. Has he?) For the overall plot, this is entirely unimportant, and as such it was most likely scrapped because it would be seen as bad writing had they left it in. They would create tension between two characters that will remain unresolved since they will never meet again. If anything, it would make Renly look like a sexist idiot. It's an entirely justified change.
Yes, they do meet again and Loras confronts and accuses Brienne of Renly's murder. In fact that was the scene that the actor playing Loras used to audition for the part on the show. In Storm of Swords, after Jaime and Brienne's arrival in King's Landing, they were confronted by Loras, who still believed Brienne guilty of Renly's regicide and wanted to kill Brienne. Jaime had to have Brienne arrested for her own protection, and one of his first duties as leader of the Kings Guard was calming down Loras and having him speak to her; and judge her fairly. Eventually this leads to finally dispelling Brienne's blame, but she was the main suspect by pretty much everyone for Renly's death up to that point. So how is that an entirely justified change? I already said it's relatively minor and won't ruin the story or anything, it's just so random and completely opposite of the source material.
On March 22 2013 01:55 Conti wrote: I don't even disagree with most of your nitpickings, really. The books are better, period, and the show is still very much enjoyable. I've just long given up comparing a show or movie to its original. It's pointless. You're much better off pretending that it has nothing whatsoever to do with the source material.
On March 22 2013 01:41 karazax wrote: Random changes like changing Loras from being convinced Brienne killed Renly to not even suspecting her I don't understand the benefit or reason behind though. That is a some what minor change that won't have an effect until the next time Loras sees Brienne, but it's just so random that it makes me wonder why change it?
I'm just picking this one as an example. Why does this change even matter? Has Renly met Brienne ever again in the books (I honestly don't know, actually. Has he?) For the overall plot, this is entirely unimportant, and as such it was most likely scrapped because it would be seen as bad writing had they left it in. They would create tension between two characters that will remain unresolved since they will never meet again. If anything, it would make Renly look like a sexist idiot. It's an entirely justified change.
Yes, they do meet again and Loras confronts and accuses Brienne of Renly's murder. In fact that was the scene that the actor playing Loras used to audition for the part on the show. In Storm of Swords, after Jaime and Brienne's arrival in King's Landing, they were confronted by Loras, who still believed Brienne guilty of Renly's regicide and wanted to kill Brienne. Jaime had to have Brienne arrested for her own protection, and one of his first duties as leader of the Kings Guard was calming down Loras and having him speak to her; and judge her fairly. Eventually this leads to finally dispelling Brienne's blame, but she was the main suspect by pretty much everyone for Renly's death up to that point. So how is that an entirely justified change? I already said it's relatively minor and won't ruin the story or anything, it's just so random and completely opposite of the source material.
I guess that shows that I ought to read the books again. To me, that's a very minor plot that was omitted due to time constraints, nothing more. It saves the writers a minute or two in an upcoming episode that they can use to instead flesh out a main plot or main character some more.
I guess, it's just hard for me to accept the excuse that they need to cut something like that to save time, when you know they will add in more pointless 5 minute whore scenes that add so little to the main plots and characters.
Anyway it will be interesting to see how the next season goes. The trailers look great, but then again so did the season 2 trailers.
I just came to this thread to post that very thing, but from a different source.
That the co-EP (I don't know which is which, I want to say that is Benioff?) had to look to his left and right to confirm that he could even reveal what the question was, GRRM used it as the key point in their "test", that it was a "strange/shocking" answer and that wasn't confirmed for them until later when he let them in on everything is incredibly telling.
At this point R+L=J isn't so much a theory as the only known possibility with credibility. A theory on the level of gravity and evolution. It cannot be Wylla, and the name Ashara Dayne has no reason to ever even come up in the show at this point.
It's odd to me that they managed to fill that panel with people who are still alive (well...whatever Cat is, and whatever Jon is) at the end of book 5 yet spend so much time of talking about killing characters.
Headey being terrified that she is going to be killed off can be written off as a good thing as a backdoor element of method acting, no?
That the co-EP (I don't know which is which, I want to say that is Benioff?) had to look to his left and right to confirm that he could even reveal what the question was, GRRM used it as the key point in their "test", that it was a "strange/shocking" answer and that wasn't confirmed for them until later when he let them in on everything is incredibly telling.
At this point R+L=J isn't so much a theory as the only known possibility with credibility. A theory on the level of gravity and evolution. It cannot be Wylla, and the name Ashara Dayne has no reason to ever even come up in the show at this point.
Really surprised the Mac from It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia is the host of the panel.
On March 26 2013 08:41 Irrelevant Label wrote: Headey being terrified that she is going to be killed off can be written off as a good thing as a backdoor element of method acting, no?
At least going into season 2 Headey hadn't read any of the books and said she didn't intend to, so there is a good chance she has no idea.
On March 26 2013 08:41 Irrelevant Label wrote: Headey being terrified that she is going to be killed off can be written off as a good thing as a backdoor element of method acting, no?
At least going into season 2 Headey hadn't read any of the books and said she didn't intend to, so there is a good chance she has no idea.
Almost non of them did, but im sure their agents briefed them about the main plot-turns their character has to take
On March 26 2013 08:41 Irrelevant Label wrote: Headey being terrified that she is going to be killed off can be written off as a good thing as a backdoor element of method acting, no?
At least going into season 2 Headey hadn't read any of the books and said she didn't intend to, so there is a good chance she has no idea.
Almost non of them did, but im sure their agents briefed them about the main plot-turns their character has to take
Ya. At the very least they will want to know when they'll be out of a job.
Look like I'm late to the party but I want to ask if any of you found the Red Wedding unexpected. I mean the moment Robb did some absolutely treacherous act like forsaking his promise with Frey I knew that he would pay for it. And when he beheaded the Karstark old man who had ridden with him and lost so many sons for Starks' course I knew that asshole Robb would die horribly in the future. When the old man Frey who was like the manifestation of cruelty and pettiness easily accepted the renew proposal I had the answer for the manner of Robb's death. It is so obvious yet sometimes (not here, I haven't read the whole thread) it is referred to as a great twist or something along that line. I don't think it is. Robb was losing and dying based on all indications: his army and allegiance were falling apart while he was trapped by two flanks of ironmen and Lannisters (which at that time had added the Tyrells and Dorne, completely overwhelmed the pity army of Robb). If I were Robb, the moment I heard the news from Winterfell (the castle falling and his brothers' death) I would do everything to strengthen every allied I had left, not to have fun with a girl and proceed to break the pact with the Freys and destroy the last hope of recovery, let alone winning the war.
Having said that, what is your opinion on Robb? I think he is an undeserving king and leader of the Stark. His father died a honorable death, foolish but staying true to his friend and chivarlous to those who deversed forgiveness (Cercei and her children, they were a woman and children after all). On the other hand, Robb betrayed almost everyone who was good to him and had risked everything for him. Hell, book 4 and 5 were painful to read for me, witnessing the humiliation and ordeal of Northern people and families under the hands of Lannisters, Boltons and ironmen. Robb was supposed to protect them, not letting them be tortured for his fouls. He should have tried to come to terms with the Lannisters and come back to retrieve the North. Instead he pressed on when everything was lost and paid for that, deservingly I may add, but the consequences for those noble, loyal and heroic families of the North gave me so much distaste. Anyone here found Robb sympathetic and what are your reasons for that?
I did not find the red wedding to be completely unexpected, for similar reasons to what you gave chisuri, but I definitely don't think it was obvious it was going to happen.
It's an interesting theory and I wouldn't mind if they made that change after all the other changes they have made to Talisa in comparison to Jeyne. The biggest arguement against it would be that the writers have shown zero ability to keep any story line subtle. Like Littlefinger explaining all his plans like a comic book villain, and directly talking to Sansa about helping her out of the city in the middle of court. Or the need to show the White Walker taking Craster's son rather than imply it. They don't seem to have any faith in their viewers to follow something that isn't explicitly laid out to them.
It's an interesting theory and I wouldn't mind if they made that change after all the other changes they have made to Talisa in comparison to Jeyne. The biggest arguement against it would be that the writers have shown zero ability to keep any story line subtle. Like Littlefinger explaining all his plans like a comic book villain, and directly talking to Sansa about helping her out of the city in the middle of court. Or the need to show the White Walker taking Craster's son rather than imply it. They don't seem to have any faith in their viewers to follow something that isn't explicitly laid out to them.
The sad truth is that they need to do this. People who refuse to read the books after enjoying the show a lot and being told of the quality of the books are people who will not understand much if it is too subtle.
Wow. The only two bits of that which had occurred to me, and I thought little of them, before were her speech with the lack of accent and use of proper honorifics and then the wedding under mixed andal-northern customs thing while allegedly she isn't an andal. They seemed like easy "stupid little mistakes" for the writers to have allowed through rather than plot relevant details.
I really hope that is true because then she can probably go down as a "different but close-ish to equal" change from the books rather than the trainwreck of a bad change she has looked like. The primary remaining problem holding it back is how it still makes Robb so selfish rather than making the honor-based bad decision from the books.
On March 27 2013 03:28 chisuri wrote: Look like I'm late to the party but I want to ask if any of you found the Red Wedding unexpected. I mean the moment Robb did some absolutely treacherous act like forsaking his promise with Frey I knew that he would pay for it. And when he beheaded the Karstark old man who had ridden with him and lost so many sons for Starks' course I knew that asshole Robb would die horribly in the future. When the old man Frey who was like the manifestation of cruelty and pettiness easily accepted the renew proposal I had the answer for the manner of Robb's death. It is so obvious yet sometimes (not here, I haven't read the whole thread) it is referred to as a great twist or something along that line. I don't think it is. Robb was losing and dying based on all indications: his army and allegiance were falling apart while he was trapped by two flanks of ironmen and Lannisters (which at that time had added the Tyrells and Dorne, completely overwhelmed the pity army of Robb). If I were Robb, the moment I heard the news from Winterfell (the castle falling and his brothers' death) I would do everything to strengthen every allied I had left, not to have fun with a girl and proceed to break the pact with the Freys and destroy the last hope of recovery, let alone winning the war.
Having said that, what is your opinion on Robb? I think he is an undeserving king and leader of the Stark. His father died a honorable death, foolish but staying true to his friend and chivarlous to those who deversed forgiveness (Cercei and her children, they were a woman and children after all). On the other hand, Robb betrayed almost everyone who was good to him and had risked everything for him. Hell, book 4 and 5 were painful to read for me, witnessing the humiliation and ordeal of Northern people and families under the hands of Lannisters, Boltons and ironmen. Robb was supposed to protect them, not letting them be tortured for his fouls. He should have tried to come to terms with the Lannisters and come back to retrieve the North. Instead he pressed on when everything was lost and paid for that, deservingly I may add, but the consequences for those noble, loyal and heroic families of the North gave me so much distaste. Anyone here found Robb sympathetic and what are your reasons for that?
I really liked Robb in the books. He was did pretty well considering how young he was when he was thrust into the thick of things. He did great in the battle. He couldn't really prepare for the fact that he got invaded by the Greyjoys, especially when he thought they would come over to his side, if anything. Was marrying Jeyne a mistake? Obviously. But its pretty easy to see why he did it. He's young, and doesn't have much of his own identity yet, he's not used to his independence, so he gets along by trying to emulate his father. Honorable Ned. When robb knocks up Jeyne in his moment of weakness, it puts him in quite the tough spot. He probably had so many people telling him what to do, so many clashing thoughts in his own head, the easiest solution was just to ask himself "what would my father do?" Ned is honorable. But there is no purely honorable choice in this situation. Either he is dishonoring Jeyne and her son, or he is dishonoring Grandpa Frey. And I think when it comes down to it, Ned, and thus Robb, prefers personal honor (ie how you treat your family and close friends) over political honor. Case in point, Ned keeps Lyanna's secret for the sake of personal honor, at the expense of his political honor. Marrying Jeyne is the personally honorably choice, while leaving Jeyne and marrying a Frey would be a politically honorable choice. That's why Robb chose Jeyne. On top of all that, Robb probably convinced himself that he would somehow be able to amend the situation with the Freys. So I think its hard to get mad at Robb in this situation. Frustrated, sure. But in the same way you get frustrated at Ned with things.
EPT
