EPTOn March 18 2013 10:19 GGTeMpLaR wrote:
Ha! 0:48. Joff: "Everyone is mine to torment", cut to Theon being tortured. Nice red herring there HBO.
[TV/BOOK] *SPOILERS* Game of Thrones Discussion - Page 230
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SPOILER WARNING If you only watch the show, this thread will spoil you of future events in HBO's Game of Thrones. Thread contains discussion of all books of the series A Song of Ice and Fire Click Here for the spoiler-free thread. | ||
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scudst0rm
Canada1149 Posts
Ha! 0:48. Joff: "Everyone is mine to torment", cut to Theon being tortured. Nice red herring there HBO. | ||
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karazax
United States3737 Posts
Of course TV Robb Stark is already set up to make me a Frey sympathizer with his purely selfish mariage to Talisa. It will be interesting to see Robb execute Karstark for a dishonorable act after doing what he did to the Freys. In the book he gets married to Jeyne to protect her honor after sleeping with her in the wake of hearing of Bran and Rickon's death at Winterfell. In the show, Catelyn tries to tell Robb that marriage for love isn’t a luxury that a person in his position can afford, and he basically tells her to get bent, because she broke the rules when she released the Kingslayer, so now he gets to break the rules. Robb marries Talisa, still not knowing about the “deaths” of his little brothers and dooms his whole family and all their allies in the process. Maybe they meant for Robb to be “romantic” and “heroic,” but he comes off as more immature and bratty than in the book, even though Book Robb is several years younger than Show Robb. I can’t see him as anything but stupid under the circumstances, possibly even dumber than Show Jon Snow. Robb was lucky to get Walder Frey’s help in the first place because he was rebelling against the crown and the Frey’s are not even sworn to the Starks, they are sworn to the Tullys. Maybe that stupidity is on purpose to soften the blow of the Red Wedding. | ||
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Conti
Germany2516 Posts
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ddrddrddrddr
1344 Posts
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karazax
United States3737 Posts
On March 20 2013 04:16 Conti wrote: I'm having a hard time seeing the difference bewteen Rob falling in love and marrying, and Rob having sex with a girl and then marrying her because that's-the-thing-you-do. It's both equally stupid, given his situation. Falling in love and marrying Talisa just because Robb feels like rebelling against his mom is a pretty vastly different motivation from having sex with Jeyne who nursed him back to health in a time of weakness when he just learned both of his brothers were killed by one of his best friends, and then marrying her out of sense of duty because he felt it was the "right thing" to do. Much like Ned's honor cost him his life. You can make the arguement that both were stupid, but at least the book version he is trying to do what he feels is the "right thing", where the TV show actions are strictly selfish. Beyond that there was no reason that he needed to marry Talisa NOW. He could have kept her as a mistress, that was pretty standard for many lords, and if he still felt the need to marry her after the war, so be it. That's ignoring the whole unrealistic "independent woman" aspect of Talisa who mouths off to lords to their faces and wanders around war zones unescorted when rape, robbery and death would be a daily danger. I just don't see the benefit to the change in the story, and I see a number of negatives. | ||
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Conti
Germany2516 Posts
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
On March 20 2013 05:55 Conti wrote: Alright, I see a small difference now, and I definitely agree that the book handled things better. But it's still a very minor issue for me that's not really worth glancing at. I'm way more confused by Catelyn freeing Jaime for no apparent reason. Because she's a crazy bitch and I smiled when she died. | ||
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Ario
Canada73 Posts
On March 20 2013 05:57 Requizen wrote: Because she's a crazy bitch and I smiled when she died. Didn't she do it after finding out about Bran and Rickon's (fake) deaths? That would make sense from her point of view cause she was always for trading Jamie for Sansa/Arya, and this was the last bit of motivation she needed to actually do it. Even though I really dislike how they've handled Robb (how hard could it have been to keep it like the book?), I don't think the final reaction by TV-only fans will be any different. Almost everybody that I know who only watch the show supports the Starks, so when the RW comes up I do not see anyone siding with the Freys in the slightest. | ||
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Irrelevant Label
United States596 Posts
On March 20 2013 03:46 karazax wrote: They will have a hell of a time with Theon's ADWD story without the internal monologue of the books. Reek also doesn't quite have the same dynamic without Ramsay being Theon's captive and Reek first. It's a story line that could have the most disturbing torture scenes ever on TV or has the potential for a huge failure. I think that all they need to do to make Reek work is have him talk aloud to himself. A simple tweak to match the realities of a show vs a book and they should be able to convey him more or less fine. The remaining roadblock is that workaround does nothing to let him be "thinking like Reek" while his tormentors are standing right in front of him...unless of course they portray him as so entirely broken that he goes ahead talking to himself even with Ramsay or Roose present then also tweak Ramsay and Roose to work with that. I do not think that change would harm the characters. If anything that makes Ramsay even more monstrous and I don't think he is a character they need to worry about going overboard with on the cruelty. Regarding Robb I doubt they have a 'solution' for the character hole the show wrote itself into. They wanted to cut the complexities of Jeyne and didn't think all the ripples through so it is just a weak point in the show's version of the story. | ||
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Conti
Germany2516 Posts
On March 20 2013 07:04 Ario wrote: Didn't she do it after finding out about Bran and Rickon's (fake) deaths? That would make sense from her point of view cause she was always for trading Jamie for Sansa/Arya, and this was the last bit of motivation she needed to actually do it. In the books, yes. And there it made perfect sense. She was utterly desperate and willing to do anything to get her daughters back. In the show, nope. She had no idea that her boys are supposed to be dead. Even though that happened in the same episode, too. I have no idea why they decided not to have Theon send out a raven to everyone announcing his victory like he did in the books. | ||
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itkovian
United States1763 Posts
On March 20 2013 05:57 Requizen wrote: Because she's a crazy bitch and I smiled when she died. I would have liked to see your face when they brought her back then, haha. I've never really liked Catelyn either, though I did feel bad for her often. But it is easier to like her when you stand her next to Cersei or Lysa. | ||
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Ario
Canada73 Posts
On March 20 2013 07:31 Conti wrote: In the books, yes. And there it made perfect sense. She was utterly desperate and willing to do anything to get her daughters back. In the show, nope. She had no idea that her boys are supposed to be dead. Even though that happened in the same episode, too. I have no idea why they decided not to have Theon send out a raven to everyone announcing his victory like he did in the books. My mistake, got it confused with the books. Yeah, there seems to be a few things done in the show where it would have been a lot better if they kept it like the books. Hopefully that doesn't happen too much in season 3. Upon re-watching the episode, I think the TV Cat's rationale was "Karstarks are all trying to kill Jamie and if they succeed Sansa and Arya will die, so the only option is to free him and hope they'll honour the trade". Kinda makes sense but doing it the book way would have been a lot better in this case. | ||
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Delphiki
Philippines1955 Posts
On March 20 2013 11:12 Ario wrote: My mistake, got it confused with the books. Yeah, there seems to be a few things done in the show where it would have been a lot better if they kept it like the books. Hopefully that doesn't happen too much in season 3. Upon re-watching the episode, I think the TV Cat's rationale was "Karstarks are all trying to kill Jamie and if they succeed Sansa and Arya will die, so the only option is to free him and hope they'll honour the trade". Kinda makes sense but doing it the book way would have been a lot better in this case. I love how she thinks Jaime will "honor" their trade. I mean, he killed king Aerys while being the captain of his kingsguard | ||
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MajuGarzett
Canada635 Posts
On March 20 2013 12:28 Delphiki wrote: I love how she thinks Jaime will "honor" their trade. I mean, he killed king Aerys while being the captain of his kingsguard That's why she sent Brienne with him I guess. Also I guess she thought it was better to have some chance of getting Arya and Sansa back than not trying at all. | ||
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Delphiki
Philippines1955 Posts
On March 20 2013 12:31 MajuGarzett wrote: That's why she sent Brienne with him I guess. Also I guess she thought it was better to have some chance of getting Arya and Sansa back than not trying at all. Yeah, and she disregarded Robb because of that. This is the reason I hate her so much | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
On March 20 2013 09:37 itkovian wrote: I would have liked to see your face when they brought her back then, haha. I've never really liked Catelyn either, though I did feel bad for her often. But it is easier to like her when you stand her next to Cersei or Lysa. She and Cersei are two peas in a pod. They're both insane, irrational individuals with the only "rationale" behind their actions being "my children!". But it never really made up for the fact that they both make decisions that get entire armies fucked over because of COMPLETELY irrational and often amoral reasons. It's just especially frustrating with Catelyn, because with Cersei you expect her to be an evil, unlikable bitch. With Cat, the fact that she's a Stark and Ned legitimately loves her makes me think that she's supposed to be relateable and understandable, but instead she just ends up being one of my least favorite characters in the entire series. She's selfish in the extreme and constantly has a stick up her ass about so many things outside of her control, like Jon for instance. | ||
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Irrelevant Label
United States596 Posts
The three key points are: 1. There is about no conceivable way that releasing Jaime harms Sansa and Arya, at least not without first having to ripple off a few other events. 2. Anything bad happening to Jaime very likely means her daughters die. 3. Jaime is not going to be in their possession anymore in either event. She doesn't need her track record of reckless emotional decisions, though it sure doesn't hurt. A perfectly rational person would do the same thing. They cut some reasons and changed the story in probably negative ways, but that decision works. People forgave the change to make Ned outright lawful stupid in the show yet change the specifics behind the reason Cat lets Jaime go and it's some kind of travesty. My priorities must be very odd. I think the only changes that really matter are Ned being turned into an idiot/Sansa being relatively innocent of screwing the Starks over (mostly closed issue), Robb betraying the Frey alliance for much weaker and non-honorable reasons (will be closed by the end of s3), Jaime being a sociopath, Arya not being a sociopath, Theon not broadcasting the claim of having killed the younger Stark boys (which they might ignore and in a roundabout way end up a non-change, it is easy enough to claim it was spread by Ramsay somehow), and possibly one or more of the Dany changes but there are so many it is hard to say how they add up yet. The meta issues are also interesting. Letting the audience know that Varys and Illyrio are a conspiratorial item so early could change things. The relative lack of mentions of prophecy could change the way a lot of things are presented. Then there is that little Jon's parentage thing not being hinted at in the slightest in the show. Not that this show can really claim to be an adaptation of A Song of Ice and Fire with Emilia Clarke's eye color. Call the whole thing off because that is unforgivable. Don't get me started on Syrio's age and...hair?! Or should I stick with the "Will died first!" movement regarding the opening scene? At least...what was the phase? "Despite being three whores short the battle managed to be entirely off the chain." | ||
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Dakkas
2550 Posts
On March 20 2013 12:45 Requizen wrote: She and Cersei are two peas in a pod. They're both insane, irrational individuals with the only "rationale" behind their actions being "my children!". But it never really made up for the fact that they both make decisions that get entire armies fucked over because of COMPLETELY irrational and often amoral reasons. It's just especially frustrating with Catelyn, because with Cersei you expect her to be an evil, unlikable bitch. With Cat, the fact that she's a Stark and Ned legitimately loves her makes me think that she's supposed to be relateable and understandable, but instead she just ends up being one of my least favorite characters in the entire series. She's selfish in the extreme and constantly has a stick up her ass about so many things outside of her control, like Jon for instance. Someone hasn't been reading the books very well | ||
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
On March 20 2013 13:23 Irrelevant Label wrote: Jaime was probably not going to survive the night in Robb's camp. If he dies there is little chance of anything short of horrible repercussions for her daughter(s) who are both, to her knowledge, still in the Lannister's possession in KL. That is plenty of reason. The three key points are: 1. There is about no conceivable way that releasing Jaime harms Sansa and Arya, at least not without first having to ripple off a few other events. 2. Anything bad happening to Jaime very likely means her daughters die. 3. Jaime is not going to be in their possession anymore in either event. She doesn't need her track record of reckless emotional decisions, though it sure doesn't hurt. A perfectly rational person would do the same thing. They cut some reasons and changed the story in probably negative ways, but that decision works. People forgave the change to make Ned outright lawful stupid in the show yet change the specifics behind the reason Cat lets Jaime go and it's some kind of travesty. My priorities must be very odd. I think the only changes that really matter are Ned being turned into an idiot/Sansa being relatively innocent of screwing the Starks over (mostly closed issue), Robb betraying the Frey alliance for much weaker and non-honorable reasons (will be closed by the end of s3), Jaime being a sociopath, Arya not being a sociopath, Theon not broadcasting the claim of having killed the younger Stark boys (which they might ignore and in a roundabout way end up a non-change, it is easy enough to claim it was spread by Ramsay somehow), and possibly one or more of the Dany changes but there are so many it is hard to say how they add up yet. The meta issues are also interesting. Letting the audience know that Varys and Illyrio are a conspiratorial item so early could change things. The relative lack of mentions of prophecy could change the way a lot of things are presented. Then there is that little Jon's parentage thing not being hinted at in the slightest in the show. Not that this show can really claim to be an adaptation of A Song of Ice and Fire with Emilia Clarke's eye color. Call the whole thing off because that is unforgivable. Don't get me started on Syrio's age and...hair?! Or should I stick with the "Will died first!" movement regarding the opening scene? At least...what was the phase? "Despite being three whores short the battle managed to be entirely off the chain." Well, the changes that really matter, they completly changed Shae, in the books she's a fairly simple whore, in the TV she's a willful fairly cunning person, and appears to have real emotions towards Tryion and even Sansa. I'd say that's easily one of the top 3 character-diversions, the first one obviously being Littlefinger, the third one, as you mentioned, Arya not builidng up a body-count. I actually really liked Syrio's hair, and Tywinn's too, GRRM likes to make most powerful male characters bold (Tywinn, Stannis, Varrys, Syrio and im sure there are more). I really disliked that they couldnt give purple contacts to danny, cuz " its hard to wear them for so long" give me a break.... For the prophecies, (S)snow in the throne room can be seen as a hint for Jon's parantege if you really want to. | ||
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TSORG
293 Posts
On March 20 2013 13:52 Dakkas wrote: Someone hasn't been reading the books very well maybe not but i also found cat very annoying in the books XD ofc shes a tully and not a stark, that would be inbreeding  | ||
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