[TV/BOOK] *SPOILERS* Game of Thrones Discussion - Page 218

On February 07 2013 09:48 Sentenal wrote:
I don't really see a correlation to Rome losing power to the Targaryens losing power. Rome fell to barbarians, but the Targaryens fell to factions within their own country. Barbarian invasion and internal rebellion are pretty distinct.

Was anyone else seriously disappointed when the red viper died?
I like the thinking behind his character, setting him up as a deus ex machina to save tyrion, so everyone expects him to win the duel, and even letting him get the uper hand in the duel, then having him die. Was pretty good story telling wise, i just get the feeling we missed the chance to see an incredible amount of interesting stuff, both past and future, from one of the most baller characters in the world.

On February 07 2013 18:37 GhostLink wrote:




I say The Red Viper died on purpose, so that Gregor could suffer in agony. He refused to give him clean death, but he had no choice, it was that or die. He chose death.

On February 07 2013 20:44 GhostLink wrote:
I've just finished the last book some hours ago, and so I was thinking...
It was obvious to me ever since A feast for Crows and Melisandre was mistaken, and Stannis was not Azor Ahai. So then I thought Maester Aemon had the right of it - that the dragons don't have genders, and Daenerys is Azor Ahai. But then I thought more, and ok, maybe looked things up a little, and remembered back to Dany in the House of the Undying, when she saw a vision of Rhaegar, with his son in his arms, proclaiming that his is the Song of Ice and Fire.
So ok, Aegon (who's not actually dead) must be Azor Ahai. But his character is not likable at all. And he just appeared out of no where. No, there has to be a bigger twist than that. Besides, Aegon was Elia's son. Targaryen is fire, but Martell is no ice.
Stark is ice. Which brings me to the time when Rhaegar abducted Lyanna Stark. Could it be that Azor Ahai is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, and his name is Jon Snow?
In Dance with Dragons, when Melisandre looks in the fire for Azor Ahai (note she never mentions Stannis), all she says she sees is Snow.
So Jon Snow is truly a son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, and his is the song of Ice and Fire.

On February 07 2013 08:07 HardlyNever wrote:

I don't even really know what to make of this. Aside from the obvious fact that most of those regions/periods never co-existed (There were no vikings when there was a Holy Roman Empire, there is no "Rome (unless you mean just the Vatican)" when there is a Holy Roman Empire).

On February 07 2013 20:44 GhostLink wrote:
I've just finished the last book some hours ago, and so I was thinking...
It was obvious to me ever since A feast for Crows and Melisandre was mistaken, and Stannis was not Azor Ahai. So then I thought Maester Aemon had the right of it - that the dragons don't have genders, and Daenerys is Azor Ahai. But then I thought more, and ok, maybe looked things up a little, and remembered back to Dany in the House of the Undying, when she saw a vision of Rhaegar, with his son in his arms, proclaiming that his is the Song of Ice and Fire.
So ok, Aegon (who's not actually dead) must be Azor Ahai. But his character is not likable at all. And he just appeared out of no where. No, there has to be a bigger twist than that. Besides, Aegon was Elia's son. Targaryen is fire, but Martell is no ice.
Stark is ice. Which brings me to the time when Rhaegar abducted Lyanna Stark. Could it be that Azor Ahai is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, and his name is Jon Snow?
In Dance with Dragons, when Melisandre looks in the fire for Azor Ahai (note she never mentions Stannis), all she says she sees is Snow.
So Jon Snow is truly a son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, and his is the song of Ice and Fire.

On February 07 2013 21:10 skyrunner wrote:

Yea, that is actually a really popular/common theory. But it's pretty impressive to figure out all that on your own!

About Aegon, we can't really be sure that he is even a real Targaryen. There are clues in the book that points toward him being fake, and as you say he was introduced really late wich could mean he is just a red herring.

Rhaegar seemed to at first think that Aegon was "The prince that was promised", but iirc he then later speculated that he needed another child or something like that (Wich obv might be Jon). Also afaik it isn't fully confirmed if prince that was promised and azor ahai is necessarily the same person, but it points to that. Azor ahai is supposed to be born in a place of salt and stone and have waken dragons from stone, wich points to Dany, not Stannis, Aegon or Jon. And remember the dragon has three heads, there might be three different people being azor ahai together!

Grrm can't be trusted in any way, especially not with prophecies.

On February 07 2013 22:54 GhostLink wrote:
Also, I couldn't help but think of this:

Is Moqorro the Red Priest who is currently with Victarion set out to find Daenerys Marwyn the Mage from Oldtown, the one who set out to find Daenerys?

It was quite clear that Marwyn's faith lay with R'hllor, with seeing the dragonglass candle in his office, as well as his belief in the prophecy and Azor Ahai.

And with that, the one thing that I didn't quite get: Who was the alchemist in Oldtown in the prologue in A Feast For Crows, the one who had something done with Pate after obtaining the key to Oldtown's vaults and archives? Was it ever followed up on that i had simply missed, or is it just open for speculation?

On February 07 2013 09:48 Sentenal wrote:
I don't really see a correlation to Rome losing power to the Targaryens losing power. Rome fell to barbarians, but the Targaryens fell to factions within their own country. Barbarian invasion and internal rebellion are pretty distinct.

On February 07 2013 21:09 zatic wrote:

The Holy Roman Empire was not Rome : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Roman_Empire

There are some obvious similarities between the factions in Osoiaf and medieval Europe, but of course there is a lot of mixing up geographically.

The most obvious should be Valyria = Rome (and, by extension, Targaryen). Throughout the books there are references to Valyria that you could just as well make to Ancient Rome (The loss of culture, technology, leftover architecture all across Essos, Valyrian Roads, the universal admiration of anything Valyrian, the language, and more).

On February 07 2013 20:44 GhostLink wrote:
I've just finished the last book some hours ago, and so I was thinking...
It was obvious to me ever since A feast for Crows and Melisandre was mistaken, and Stannis was not Azor Ahai. So then I thought Maester Aemon had the right of it - that the dragons don't have genders, and Daenerys is Azor Ahai. But then I thought more, and ok, maybe looked things up a little, and remembered back to Dany in the House of the Undying, when she saw a vision of Rhaegar, with his son in his arms, proclaiming that his is the Song of Ice and Fire.
So ok, Aegon (who's not actually dead) must be Azor Ahai. But his character is not likable at all. And he just appeared out of no where. No, there has to be a bigger twist than that. Besides, Aegon was Elia's son. Targaryen is fire, but Martell is no ice.
Stark is ice. Which brings me to the time when Rhaegar abducted Lyanna Stark. Could it be that Azor Ahai is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, and his name is Jon Snow?
In Dance with Dragons, when Melisandre looks in the fire for Azor Ahai (note she never mentions Stannis), all she says she sees is Snow.
So Jon Snow is truly a son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, and his is the song of Ice and Fire.

On February 07 2013 21:09 zatic wrote:

The Holy Roman Empire was not Rome : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Roman_Empire

There are some obvious similarities between the factions in Osoiaf and medieval Europe, but of course there is a lot of mixing up geographically.

The most obvious should be Valyria = Rome (and, by extension, Targaryen). Throughout the books there are references to Valyria that you could just as well make to Ancient Rome (The loss of culture, technology, leftover architecture all across Essos, Valyrian Roads, the universal admiration of anything Valyrian, the language, and more).

On February 07 2013 23:55 mcc wrote:

Snow being son of Rhaegar and Lyanna is one of the few hypothesis that I see as highly probable. Eddard Stark would not have been so tormented by a promise to Lyanna that he already fulfilled. It is pretty clear that the promise was something much deeper and the only thing that makes sense is that Jon is son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. I am kind of afraid that after everyine figured it out , Martin might be tempted to artificially change that, which I think would be a bad idea.

On February 07 2013 23:58 HardlyNever wrote:


I'm not sure how you took "there was no Rome when there was a Holy Roman Empire" as "Rome and the Holy Roman Empire are the same thing." I am well aware the (ancient) Roman Empire and Holy Roman Empire are not the same thing.

The Valyria = Ancient Rome is a little closer, but that would make the Targaryens sort of bottom-of-the-barrel Romans as they were supposedly one of the lesser houses in Valyria (that is why they moved westward).

There are also some strange misconceptions about what the ancient Roman empire is and isn't. It didn't "fall to barbarians" or "fall because emperors were insane." These are all very pop-culture and inaccurate notions.

The Roman empire persisted for quite a long time after Rome (the city) was no longer under its control, it is just
modernly known as the "Byzantine" empire.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire

Edit; The more I think about it, comparing the Targaryens and the Targaryen dynasty with the Byzantine Empire (which is basically an extension of the Roman empire) is a better comparison. They aren't really Valyrian anymore, they are what is left of Valyria mixed with what they encountered with what they found when they moved.

2nd Edit: The "lost civilization that had secret power that someone now must find to save/conquer the world" isn't exactly a novel idea. I also conflated Valyria with Atlantis more than anything else (advanced island civilization that disappeared almost instantly). Basically any JRPG from the 90s has some sort of powerful lost civilization that you have to rediscover/reclaim part of that power to help the world. Rome (as someone who has studied it for years) never really jumped to mind until Tyrion was traveling on that really well made ancient road, but I guess there are some similarities here and there.