EPTBut man this is a long time. Im so spoiled since I started book 1 in april 2012 and finished book 5 in august.
Now have to wait probably 2 years.
Hope he is faster than he thinks.
[TV/BOOK] *SPOILERS* Game of Thrones Discussion - Page 180
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SPOILER WARNING If you only watch the show, this thread will spoil you of future events in HBO's Game of Thrones. Thread contains discussion of all books of the series A Song of Ice and Fire Click Here for the spoiler-free thread. | ||
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Vandrad
Germany951 Posts
But man this is a long time. Im so spoiled since I started book 1 in april 2012 and finished book 5 in august. Now have to wait probably 2 years. Hope he is faster than he thinks. | ||
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Sawajiri
Austria417 Posts
So far, I think I've come to the conclusion that GRRM is within his perfect right to take however long he wants to get the next book ready, provided that he hasn't signed any contracts outlining deadlines -- which I suppose he hasn't, or else we would've heard about these deadlines by now. Looking at the facts here, it's the author's right to write his own story in a way that pleases him with the quality he deems appropriate versus the readers' right to see their reading material out in a timely fashion, and I'm leaning toward saying that the author's right to his work and seeing it completed the way he wants to (which may or may not take longer than assumed, expected or hoped for) trumps the readers' right to have their books out within a time frame they deem desirable. So that's that, imo. What I find the meatier issue here is the fact that GRRM has said numerous times that he does not wish for another author to finish his work in his stead should he die before finishing ASOIAF, and that is what I find far more objectionable than his taking his time with the writing mechanics. What he's basically saying here that if he dies, we're all screwed, with a tragically unfinished novel project on our hands. Imo, the first five books published so far really really cannot stand on their own as a completed story and very clearly reflect their state as an unfinished work in progress, so this is where I'm torn. This is the right of the author to have complete post-mortem control over his work vs. the readers' right to eventually see a series they may have invested many years, much love and many $$$ actually and honestly finished, and I think this is where I side with the readers and have to call GRRM supremely selfish. It's only the readers and the fan base that have gotten him to where he is now, that he owes his lifestyle and riches and fame to, and while I can side with him on letting them wait for their books, I'm not sure I can side with him on having the right to decide to leave his work unfinished. I guess I sort of think as someone publishing a novel series in progress as an implicit contract between the author and the readers/public by extension that the work will eventually be finished. The author may freely choose what to do with his series where movie/show adaptions, length of time between installments, level of intimacy with readership (interviews, etc) are concerned, but I'm having a pretty hard time swallowing the idea that GRRM could die on us while choosing to cockblock someone else from ever finishing the series. I'm leaning toward saying that he should be required to name an heir to leave an outline, too, except that forceful heir-naming would bring with itself a host of other complications: for one thing, he might not know how the series ends himself yet, and he may physically have no time to write an outline for a successor. History provides examples of where an author finishing a work for someone else has worked, and examples where it really, really hasn't. Thoughts on this? Do you think that GRRM should be required to name a successor to finish the series in the event of his death? Is it within his perfect right to choose to bar people from finishing the series in his stead? Is it selfish? Am I crazy? I have not fully formed (or at least cemented) my own opinion on this, but I've been pondering it. Where do the rights of the author end and those of the readers begin? | ||
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xsksc
United Kingdom1044 Posts
I'm not saying I like it, but at the end of the day, it's his own work, and if he says he doesn't want someone else to finish it when he dies, I think we should respect his wishes. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you would still find out what happens in the end via the TV series, as I believe he shared the plot with the producers (?). It wouldn't be the same as reading the books, but at least you wouldn't be left on a massive cliffhanger for the rest of eternity. | ||
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Paperplane
Netherlands1823 Posts
And you're not really in a position to make demands. They're his books, he can do whatever he wants. It's only the readers and the fan base that have gotten him to where he is now, that he owes his lifestyle and riches and fame to, and while I can side with him on letting them wait for their books, I'm not sure I can side with him on having the right to decide to leave his work unfinished. He earned it by writing this series, you make it sound like the fans donated everything to him. I think the exact opposite. I think the people making these demands are supremely selfish. This is his life's work, you can't just demand him to hand it over to someone else. | ||
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Sawajiri
Austria417 Posts
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Paperplane
Netherlands1823 Posts
A bad last book would leave a bitter aftertaste after such a good run. | ||
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Sawajiri
Austria417 Posts
On September 12 2012 06:18 Paperplane wrote: I think the exact opposite. I think the people making these demands are supremely selfish. This is his life's work, you can't just demand him to hand it over to someone else. I respect your point, and I am myself uncertain if I would go so far as to say that he should be required to name a successor (probably not, because of the legal nightmare I mentioned), but I do not think it is as simple as that. Works for public consumption bring with themselves a responsibility, and it is generally not considered acceptable to publish unfinished works. When a movie director of a series dies, isn't it commonly accepted that of course someone else will step in to direct? When an actor dies, it might be the role of his lifetime, but he's still going to be recast, etc. Of course I realize that there is a big difference between a writer and an actor or a director, because movies by their very nature are not one-man project like books are, but I think it's the root of my belief that any sort of work open for public consumption brings with itself an implicit contract that it will be finished. It sort of border onto the whole patent debate as well, and for how long after death authors and creators should retain full rights over their creations before they eventually pass ownership to the public. Correct me if I'm wrong, as I'm not familiar with American law, but wouldn't the rights to ASOAIF pass to the public anyway within a certain number of years after his death, which would mean that he wouldn't be legally in his powers to stop a potential sequel 100 or whatever years from now anyway? | ||
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Sawajiri
Austria417 Posts
On September 12 2012 06:29 Paperplane wrote: I don't understand how you see this as an insult to the readers. I think he simply doesn't want to risk someone else messing up the last books and ruining the story. A bad last book would leave a bitter aftertaste after such a good run. Yes of course, there is always the risk that any sequels published by another writer won't live up to his expectations. Which is why I totally support the idea that should he decide to give the rights the someone, he should have full authority over picking the person who does it. If he does, and he trusts that person, his worries should be greatly diminished. Robert Jordan's successor is doing fine and he picked him afaik. I guess I just think it is selfish because he's basically saying that his emotional claim to his characters and his stories is more important than that of millions of readers and the public at large to see a story they've invested a lot in finished. Let's assume that he could potentially find someone to finish his work for him who he trusts to remain faithful to his vision; in that case, I'd venture to say that 90% of readers would prefer that this person finished the books rather than the thread to be left completely hanging, and doubly so should the HBO show be cancelled before we get to post-ADWD material. I admit that a lot of this is colored by Robert Jordan for me because most fans agree that the books written by his successor are good and are faithful and are wrapping things up to general satisfaction. I am aware that there have been cases of people messing it up, so I say let's go with the assumption that there is someone who could do the same for GRRM. So by that logic, and assuming there is someone who could potentially do for GRRM what Jordan's successor did to him, I think it is selfish of GRRM to put his own emotional wishes of not having someone else play in his sandbox over those of the majority of his readership. Is he in his right to do so? Yeah, probably. It would most likely really go to far to try to force him; it is his work, after all. I just don't think it's entirely cool, I guess. | ||
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Irrelevant Label
United States596 Posts
That would probably be the most appropriate way for it to end. Just want to put that out there. I'm not familiar with the finer points of authorial debt theory and feel pretty comfortable in the uninformed but seemingly solid "it is his work to do with as he pleases, I just happen to have taken an interest in it so far and paid him for what I got". Interesting that they say that they consider the red wedding the current climax point of interest when that should arrive at the end of season 3 yet they have season 4 booked. How old is this information? | ||
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xsksc
United Kingdom1044 Posts
I really doubt GRRM cares if people don't find it entirely cool, or selfish. He will just do whatever he pleases. A lot of people can be over-protective of their own creations, it's natural. | ||
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Sawajiri
Austria417 Posts
On September 12 2012 07:00 xsksc wrote: Well then, is there even any point to discussing it? I really doubt GRRM cares if people don't find it entirely cool, or selfish. He will just do whatever he pleases. A lot of people can be over-protective of their own creations, it's natural. Um well, I was just interested in hearing what other people thought, since I've been thinking about rights of the author vs. rights of the reader, as someone who is both a writer and an avid reader. And we weren't discussing if we thought GRRM cared if he thought it was selfish. You don't have to reply to me though, you know.  (People still haven't answered my question about if ownership of the series would transfer to the public within however many years post-death by American law or not, though, which, if true, would imply that whether an artist can hold on to his rights indefinitely is, in fact, debatable).As for the Red Wedding info bit, I'm pretty sure that I first heard way back in S1 that that was the scene that ultimately motivated the producers to approach GRRM about it because they thought it would look epic on screen (and it will, even though I'll cry because Robb Stark is my precious). I don't think though that S4 has been officially confirmed yet; they usually announce official pick-ups a few days/weeks into the newest season airing. Obviously at this point it's very unlikely that S4 will not happen, though. I wonder what they'll do with the beasts that are AFFC and ADWD though -- I've seen people theorize that they will try to split it into three seasons as well as that they will try to condense it into one. I personally think 3 seasons is more likely, to give GRRM more time to publish more source material. Viewership will drop because those books aren't as adaption-friendly any way you slice it, imo. Truthfully speaking, I'm still pretty convinced that we will, in fact, get enough seasons to cover the whole thing (barring any catastrophes), because, while the show is very expensive to make, HBO is currently looking into expanding streaming services to Europeans without any means to puchase the channel to bolster their income, and HBO is generally good at nixing series when they've run their course and holding on to them when they haven't. There's no guarantee, but I'm optimistic. | ||
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BallinWitStalin
1177 Posts
However, his fans deserve an ending of some kind. If he were to die, I would be okay with him releasing a summary of the plot, or something along those lines. Maybe a compiled set of notes on where he wanted to take the series. He doesn't have to let someone finish it, but having a summary or Lord of the Rings style appendix which fleshes out his plan for the plot of the series would be appropriate. That's the minimum I think he should do. He doesn't have to let someone finish the series, that's his call. Lord knows Kevin J Anderson and Brian Herbert royally, royally fucked up the Dune universe and that series forever, so I understand where hes coming from. But it would be really appreciated if he would let his fans know where he intended to take it. I think his fans deserve that much, even if he doesn't "owe" it to them. They deserve not to be left on a cliffhanger. How he does it doesnt matter. But it really would be appreciated. As a Dune series fan, I can commiserate with what can happen to an author's work after he passes. I hate Brain Herbert and K. Anderson having control over Frank Herbert's notes. I don't believe anything they say about the series, and they've done a terrible job at "finishing/adding" to it. I really wish I could just read the photocopied notes written by Frank Herbert himself, and make my own mind up about where he wanted to take the Dune series, instead of reading the ridiculous stories written by those two. Half of the stuff they write makes no sense, and seems somewhat contradictory to estabished canon. I would hate to have that shit happen to Martin's work. The Silmarillion, I think, is a pretty good model for how a story should be post-humously finished. Christopher Tolkein did a really good job finishing it and piecing it together, filling in blanks, etc., while remaining fairly consistent with what appeared to be his father's vision. Anyhow, my two cents. | ||
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MajuGarzett
Canada635 Posts
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Tewks44
United States2032 Posts
On September 13 2012 09:09 MajuGarzett wrote: Why doesn't Westeros have more food stored? It seems that after such a long summer they should have accumulated quite a surplus yet in king's landing the shortage is so bad that the peasants are starving. I understand that the war probably cut off supplies but I still feel that King's Landing should have had a lot more saved to cope with winter. King's Landing probably has enough for the nobles, regency, and government officials, but not enough to feed the people. GRRM's world is a land of gluttony and over indulgence. Even the Starks, who's words are "Winter is Coming" regularly feast the local lords and nobles, and the feasts at King's Landing are far more elaborate. | ||
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MajuGarzett
Canada635 Posts
On September 13 2012 09:13 Tewks44 wrote: King's Landing probably has enough for the nobles, regency, and government officials, but not enough to feed the people. GRRM's world is a land of gluttony and over indulgence. Even the Starks, who's words are "Winter is Coming" regularly feast the local lords and nobles, and the feasts at King's Landing are far more elaborate. I guess that's probably the best explanation though the fact that the nobles didn't just give more food to the peasants when the riots became violent suggests that either there's actually no food or the noble's somehow value good food more than their safety. | ||
zatic
Zurich15361 Posts
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MajuGarzett
Canada635 Posts
On September 13 2012 10:39 zatic wrote: Also Robert's reign wasn't exactly known for sensibility and foresight. Maybe after previous summers they had food stored, but the last 9 years were most likely just colossally mismanaged. That makes sense. It's easy to forget Robert after so much stuff happened. I've been watching the show again and in the second episode when little finger is talking to Ros after she starts crying little finger talks about a Lyseni girl who worked for him that always cried and that he eventually sold away. Does that story refer to a known character? Part of the story seems rather irrelevant to the situation otherwise. | ||
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laszmosis
Australia112 Posts
On September 13 2012 11:06 MajuGarzett wrote: That makes sense. It's easy to forget Robert after so much stuff happened. I've been watching the show again and in the second episode when little finger is talking to Ros after she starts crying little finger talks about a Lyseni girl who worked for him that always cried and that he eventually sold away. Does that story refer to a known character? Part of the story seems rather irrelevant to the situation otherwise. Personally, I just think that was just character development for little finger, showing what he is capable of doing for his own growth of power and wealth. I can't really remember any important ties to Lys within the story line. | ||
Flicky
England2669 Posts
On September 13 2012 10:39 zatic wrote: Also Robert's reign wasn't exactly known for sensibility and foresight. Maybe after previous summers they had food stored, but the last 9 years were most likely just colossally mismanaged. On top of that, count how many times during Clash of Kings & Storm of Swords you read about fields being burnt and animals being slaughtered. It's a lot. | ||
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Euronyme
Sweden3804 Posts
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