[TV/BOOK] *SPOILERS* Game of Thrones Discussion - Page 177

On August 28 2012 02:34 Dosey wrote:

Non-Disclosure Agreement + the risk of no one in hollywood ever working with them again + facing the wrath of HBO, GRRM, and the fans = very likely that it will not ever be leaked.

On August 28 2012 01:19 kafkaesque wrote:


Well, a year in Westeros is the same length as a year IRL, it's twelve months, not 4 seasons, and a month in Westeros is as long as a month IRL. So really, all we know is they have been in the early middle ages for around 300 years, since we have only vague information on politics and religion before Aegon's landing.

On August 28 2012 11:12 Irrelevant Label wrote:
We do know more than just the last 300 years. We know that in the earliest not-quite-recorded but recalled history, 12.5k years ago when the first men arrived, they had bronze but quickly upgraded to iron. We know that they had developed enough steel for it to be worth differentiating and specifying that some was "good steel" by the long night, 8k years. We know that the Andals arrived 6k years ago and brought with them all the customs and things that are generally still seen in Westeros today. We know that the sizes of armies has not changed since at least the Andal invasion which likely indicates a static general population.

I choose to call it early middle because technology and population levels have both apparently been stagnant for a very long time, at least going to to circa the long night (8k years), but likely pushing towards when the first men arrived. Westeros has some mixed traits from anywhere between an iron age to an early renaissance. One thing to keep in mind is that because the civilization goes back so long, the Andals arrived 6k years ago and it sounds like things have been quite the same since at least that point, there is rather a lot of room for things to develop "out of order" from the IRL societal vs. technological vs. population progress that Europe had. Maybe a developed hierarchy and heraldry arrived in the high middle ages in Europe, but in Europe the high middle ages didn't take thousands of years to arrive relative to the other sociotechnological factors of the earlier middle ages.

GRRM can make more or less the same claim as other fantasy settings on magic since it has only been substantially subdued for about a century. Westeros is in a weird spot though since magic has been minimal there for far longer on account of Andal customs shunning it and they have the order of the maesters whose knowledge and, one would think, aptitude for new ideas rival anything in the IRL renaissance. I suppose the most reasonable fall back is that they are in a dark age and the religious customs are a big part of holding it all back; which points back to early middle ages as a similarity.

On August 31 2012 08:30 aloT wrote:
Well with Neds death I would assume that Howland Reed would of passed on the knowledge of the events in the Tower of Joy in some way or another, especially if it could end up saving the Stark family if one of the many theories is true.

Best scene in the series is Jon Snow going all Lord Commander on Slynt. It reminded me that there was still justice in the world of Westeros.

On August 28 2012 08:59 Serek wrote:


A bit OT, but a fully developed feudal hierarchy, primogeniture inheritance, ideals of chivalry, detailed heraldry and such that we see in Westeros, are features of the high Middle Ages (ca. after 1000 a.D.) than the lower. Things like jousting tournaments started even closer to the Renaissance.

But yeah, in GRRM's world it seems they've been stuck in that era since the Andals landed. Other fantasy settings attempt to justify the lack of technological advancement with the existence of magic, but considering that magic doesn't feature as heavily here I'd like to hear about GRRM's take here.

On August 31 2012 11:50 Abysus wrote:


GRRM never intended this to be set in one "age". He has combined aspects and values from multiple ages to fit his story and universe. So attempts to say well this thing is in this age which parallels this age and this follows that therefore this, would be like chasing the proverbial rabbit down the hole.

On August 31 2012 14:35 moopie wrote:

Nope. If Varys was worried about his own safety he has ways to sneak out of KL (as shown in ASoS/ADWD). Also, he knew it was Tywin and his army coming to KL (supposedly to help guard it). Grand Maester Pycelle advised Aerys to open the gates (being a Lannister loyalist) but Varys convinced Aerys its a mistake and not to trust Tywin.

In essence, Varys worked to protect Aerys there, even though previously he purposely worked to fuel Aerys' paranoia, which in turn caused Aerys' extreme actions thus leading to his downfall. Those two actions contradict each other, but maybe someday Varys' plots will make more sense.

btw, keep in mind that Varys also narc'd on Rhaegar to Aerys. From what we know about Rhaegar, he would have been a good leader, especially if Varys cares that said leader is a Targ. Its not just about wanting prosperity for the realm, and its not just about a particular ruler. There's more to the plot than we know so far. When he kills Kevan he tells him its not personal, its because Kevan was too good at mending the realm.

He was also the one who told Robert and the council about Dany getting married to Drogo, prompting the assassination attempt. Its highly unlikely that he foresaw Jorah falling in love with Dany and saving her at the last minute, so clearly he didn't mind her getting killed off (again, contradicting the Targ loyalty idea).

Short-term, it seems to be about getting Aegon/Faegon on the throne (or at least promoting a successful invasion), but that can't be the full picture yet. I really hope GRRM has a well thought out conclusion to the Varys/Illyrio plots. Something that once revealed will make the reader go "oooooooooooh", rather than end the books with contradicting/illogical/unknown intentions. I'll be sorely disappointed if its just an Illyrio/Faegon Blackfyre reveal and wanting to revive their house.

On August 31 2012 14:35 moopie wrote:

Nope. If Varys was worried about his own safety he has ways to sneak out of KL (as shown in ASoS/ADWD). Also, he knew it was Tywin and his army coming to KL (supposedly to help guard it). Grand Maester Pycelle advised Aerys to open the gates (being a Lannister loyalist) but Varys convinced Aerys its a mistake and not to trust Tywin.

In essence, Varys worked to protect Aerys there, even though previously he purposely worked to fuel Aerys' paranoia, which in turn caused Aerys' extreme actions thus leading to his downfall. Those two actions contradict each other, but maybe someday Varys' plots will make more sense.

btw, keep in mind that Varys also narc'd on Rhaegar to Aerys. From what we know about Rhaegar, he would have been a good leader, especially if Varys cares that said leader is a Targ. Its not just about wanting prosperity for the realm, and its not just about a particular ruler. There's more to the plot than we know so far. When he kills Kevan he tells him its not personal, its because Kevan was too good at mending the realm.

He was also the one who told Robert and the council about Dany getting married to Drogo, prompting the assassination attempt. Its highly unlikely that he foresaw Jorah falling in love with Dany and saving her at the last minute, so clearly he didn't mind her getting killed off (again, contradicting the Targ loyalty idea).

Short-term, it seems to be about getting Aegon/Faegon on the throne (or at least promoting a successful invasion), but that can't be the full picture yet. I really hope GRRM has a well thought out conclusion to the Varys/Illyrio plots. Something that once revealed will make the reader go "oooooooooooh", rather than end the books with contradicting/illogical/unknown intentions. I'll be sorely disappointed if its just an Illyrio/Faegon Blackfyre reveal and wanting to revive their house.