EPT[TV/BOOK] *SPOILERS* Game of Thrones Discussion - Page 113
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SPOILER WARNING If you only watch the show, this thread will spoil you of future events in HBO's Game of Thrones. Thread contains discussion of all books of the series A Song of Ice and Fire Click Here for the spoiler-free thread. | ||
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BEARDiaguz
Australia2362 Posts
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moopie
12605 Posts
He peacefully resolved the siege at Riverrun and later at Raventree Hall, again, preventing unneeded bloodshed. How Joffrey ended up and his acts aren't Jaime's fault, it's Cersei's. Jaime purposely never took a role in parenting Robert's (supposed) children. You can't blame Jaime for Joffrey's unjust deeds. He also had every intention of honoring the agreement with Caitlyn and helped Brienne continue searching for Sansa. He's certainly no saint, and certainly trying to kill Bran was bad but it was about self preservation, not out of malice for the Starks. Jaime is actually rather honorable, even if nobody (but Brienne) sees it. | ||
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GDbushido
United States926 Posts
Actually that little episode tells us a lot about Jaime I think. He lies to the mummers about her worth as a captive, a "dishonorable" act, to defend her virtue. Is that not honorable? Sparing Lord Blackwood the shame of kneeling in front of his men when he showed up at Raventree, springing Tyrion from prison and finally telling him the truth about Tysha, refusing his father's offer to release him from the Kingsguard (where he never wanted to be in the first place) and thus be in line to become the most powerful lord in the Seven Kingdoms...Jaime has done some deplorable things, but he is not evil. | ||
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Redox
Germany24794 Posts
On May 09 2012 10:33 moopie wrote: Killing Aerys was an act of good, even if it meant breaking his vows. He saved an entire city full of innocent people from dying and recieves no recognition of it. He peacefully resolved the siege at Riverrun and later at Raventree Hall, again, preventing unneeded bloodshed. How Joffrey ended up and his acts aren't Jaime's fault, it's Cersei's. Jaime purposely never took a role in parenting Robert's (supposed) children. You can't blame Jaime for Joffrey's unjust deeds. He also had every intention of honoring the agreement with Caitlyn and helped Brienne continue searching for Sansa. He's certainly no saint, and certainly trying to kill Bran was bad but it was about self preservation, not out of malice for the Starks. Jaime is actually rather honorable, even if nobody (but Brienne) sees it. The killing of Aerys is excusable (although I dont think he did it to save others as you seem to suggest). But what about the betrayal of the second king he was sworn to protect? I mean he fucked the kings wife and helped to pass of his children as the kings own so that they could inherit the kingdom. I cant imagine a worse crime in Westeros, well maybe its second to king slaying but thats about it. And sorry, but someone who kills innocent children to cover up his earlier crimes is not honorable by any standard I have ever heard of. | ||
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GDbushido
United States926 Posts
And wtf do you mean, Jaime didn't kill Aerys to save the city? Why bother with the pyromancers if that were the case? | ||
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Sprungjeezy
United States1313 Posts
On May 09 2012 11:00 GDbushido wrote: ...because Robert was such an amazing husband and father right? The embodiment of honor, that one. And wtf do you mean, Jaime didn't kill Aerys to save the city? Why bother with the pyromancers if that were the case? He killed the pyromancer out of hate/disgust (or so I presume) and killed Aerys for self preservation, he saw his doom coming and as a kingsguard he was sworn to defend his king while he lived, Jaime was a turncloak at that moment, he saw he was going to die and instead chose to stab his king in the back (abandoning a sinking ship). Now if Jaime and the Lannisters joined Robert's rebellion beforehand he would have had more honor (granted it would have been more difficult for Jaime to survive while he was still in King's Landing, but that's besides the point. I think it's clear that Jaime has come a long way from the oathbreaker he was, it's a damn shame he lost his hand to be honest, but I don't really see him surviving Dany's conquest (nor Brienne's new mission) without taking the black and leaving. | ||
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dp
United States234 Posts
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Drowsy
United States4876 Posts
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jigga
Canada1141 Posts
On May 09 2012 13:27 Drowsy wrote: Does anyone think that maybe the show is making Tywin look a bit too nice/fatherly? Like in the books, Arya is basically in hell while she stays at harrenhal and wants to get the hell out asap. Her current show situation seems kind of alright; she can talk to ole grandpa tywin, just has to get him wine, and doesn't really have to live with a whole lot of discomfort. Her situation is definitely less dangerous than with Vargo Hoat, but it's still pretty dicey. She did get chased by Amory Loch and had to use 1 life to save herself after all. She's treading on broken glass when she talks to Tywin. It feels like he suspects something is amiss about her but likes her enough to not do anything about it. | ||
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Crazyeyes
Canada1342 Posts
On May 09 2012 13:54 jigga wrote: Her situation is definitely less dangerous than with Vargo Hoat, but it's still pretty dicey. She did get chased by Amory Loch and had to use 1 life to save herself after all. She's treading on broken glass when she talks to Tywin. It feels like he suspects something is amiss about her but likes her enough to not do anything about it. The only reason that's even a problem is because she decides to steal papers off his desk. | ||
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magicmUnky
Australia280 Posts
It's a pretty common theme guys, it's about redemption. Mostly in this forum I see people who paste archetypes on characters and try to justify their positions by wrapping the "this is why GRRM's writing is so good..." kinda stuff around it :p | ||
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Geosensation
United States256 Posts
On May 09 2012 12:59 dp wrote: Didn't Aerys have the pyromancers place wildfire all over the city so he could burn it all down? Wasn't that the reason Jamie killed them both? I think that point was pretty straightforward in the book. When asked what King Aerys last words were Jamie said something along the lines of, "The same thing he had been saying all day, burn them all." So yes I believe the Mad King was going to burn King's Landing to the ground instead of surrender it. | ||
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GDbushido
United States926 Posts
On May 09 2012 16:15 Geosensation wrote: lol way to choose like the only relevant quote from the show that isn't in the book.When asked what King Aerys last words were Jamie said something along the lines of, "The same thing he had been saying all day, burn them all." So yes I believe the Mad King was going to burn King's Landing to the ground instead of surrender it. | ||
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helvete
Sweden276 Posts
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Clegane
Germany110 Posts
On May 09 2012 13:27 Drowsy wrote: Does anyone think that maybe the show is making Tywin look a bit too nice/fatherly? Like in the books, Arya is basically in hell while she stays at harrenhal and wants to get the hell out asap. Her current show situation seems kind of alright; she can talk to ole grandpa tywin, just has to get him wine, and doesn't really have to live with a whole lot of discomfort. I think they portray him pretty accurate, although you see it later in the books. He is a great strategist and very intelligent, but not blind to emotions. Everytime he himself shows up, he does "good" things, while many of his vasalls are especially "evil" (like the mountain). So if someone is near him, he really is the friendly father-type figure (not for tyrion, but that's another story), so the people near him see him as a good person. In reality he just is a really big player in the game of thrones, never underestimate him. This strategy is why he got so far and would get farther without tyrion in the books. If you talk about the atmosphere in the books in harrenhal: as far as I remember, when Arya becomes whine-fetcher, she does not have to fear many things and escapes the "hell" also. So it is a very similar position. One of the changes in the show I really like. | ||
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Drowsy
United States4876 Posts
On May 09 2012 16:45 helvete wrote: The whole series is a departure from the classic good vs bad, with multi layered characters who do both good and evil, and whose acts have repercussions that can be interpreted in a multitude of ways. This is almost universally accepted among fans and critics alike. So it's a bit jarring to come here and see someone arguing that Jamie Lannister, of all characters, is evil (or good for that matter). He is human and does despicable things, but also honorable things. They don't cancel each other out, nor do they, taken by themselves, define him. He is both evil and good, honorable and cowardly. GRRM even goes so far as to have a character state this openly for the readers when Stannis is talking to Davos about his smugglers past. Well said. There are a few characters who are completely evil (Ramsay, Joffrey, maybe arguably Walder Frey), but the vast majority of characters are just like in the real world; shades of grey. | ||
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
On May 10 2012 03:17 Drowsy wrote: Well said. There are a few characters who are completely evil (Ramsay, Joffrey, maybe arguably Walder Frey), but the vast majority of characters are just like in the real world; shades of grey. Walder Frey isnt completely evil, he s a dishonorable piece of shit, but he does nothing bad for the sake of being evil like Ramsay, Joffrey or the Mountain do | ||
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dmnum
Brazil6910 Posts
Aerys, aware that it was the end, ordered his pyromancers to ignite the wildfire beneath the city and burn King's Landing to the ground with all its people rather than let the rebels take the city. Jaime Lannister stated that Aerys, in his madness, did not believe he would die, but like Aerion Targaryen believed the fire would allow him to be reborn as a dragon so he could crush his enemies. However, before the orders could be carried out, Ser Jaime slew the pyromancers. He then betrayed his Kingsguard oath and slew King Aerys at the foot of the Iron Throne, so he could not give the orders to burn the city to someone else. Jaime's actions prevented the genocide of the city's population.[5] Source: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Aerys_II_Targaryen | ||
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happyness
United States2400 Posts
On May 09 2012 13:27 Drowsy wrote: Does anyone think that maybe the show is making Tywin look a bit too nice/fatherly? Like in the books, Arya is basically in hell while she stays at harrenhal and wants to get the hell out asap. Her current show situation seems kind of alright; she can talk to ole grandpa tywin, just has to get him wine, and doesn't really have to live with a whole lot of discomfort. Maybe a little, and I think they are doing it for dialouge purposes mainly. Tywin in the books does admire cleverness and strength though, so I don't think its too big of a stretch of him liking Arya. Plus Tywin is never cruel for the sake of being cruel. He can be very cold and do what has to be done for the advancement of his house, but he at least doesn't take pleasure in doing "evil" things. | ||
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Drowsy
United States4876 Posts
On May 10 2012 04:29 Geo.Rion wrote: Walder Frey isnt completely evil, he s a dishonorable piece of shit, but he does nothing bad for the sake of being evil like Ramsay, Joffrey or the Mountain do + Show Spoiler + There's some hints that he planned the entire thing and Jeyne Westerling acted on his behalf to give him justification to betray Robb. In that case, I'd say he's pretty evil. If Jeyne and Robb was serendipity, then yeah I'd characterize him as "grey"but very dishonorable. That's why I say just maybe evil. | ||
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