Discussing the show and past episodes is fine. Do not put things that have happened in the TV series in spoilers. However, don't spoil things from the books that may happen in future episodes. Put book spoilers in spoiler tags with a CLEAR WARNING that it is from the book.
On November 19 2013 06:55 rd wrote: I thought episode 5 was going to be one of the best of the entire show but this episode comes close. The contrast in quality of the episodes between seasons 2-3 and the past 6 is remarkably huge, I don't know how people can complain.
On November 18 2013 12:25 jeeeeohn wrote: Wow, this episode had absolutely no connection to anything. I didn't give one shit about these new people, and I wish the zombie horde at the end had killed all of them. Why do these people matter? What's going on at the prison? Why are they suddenly making the governor sympathetic after he's already committed terrible, unforgivable atrocities? Jeesh, what a throwaway episode.
And it looks like there's going to be another one next week just like it. I think I'm going to clock out here, folks.
Only in children's stories are the characters ever black and white with clearly defined good and evil. One of the main themes of TWD is how blurred that line becomes. If you can't understand why they'd try to portray the story from the Governor's side of the story, then you should have stopped watching from the start. This show might be hitting themes a little too complex for you.
On November 15 2013 18:54 Sponkz wrote:[/B Hey everyone, I'm not sure if anyone has discussed this, but i think I've figured something out.
Right now there are survivors and survivors. You can clearly see who got over the zombie-infection and who still has the potential to turn into a walker when they die. Hershell being able to take care of the ill without getting any symptoms has a realistic explaination. He was bit and had his leg cut off, therefore he has immunity to the illness that seems somewhat harsher on the people that are still zombie-infected (who coughs blood up from a regular cold normally? No one).
Secondly there's Carl. Carl back in Season 2 got shot and he nearly died. I believe, that this is the reason why he also isn't getting the cold that kills people. Rick as well got into a coma BEFORE the zombie attack and SURVIVED and therefore he's also "cured". This also makes it possible for Glenn to get the sickness (which he did), because he hasn't had a near-death experience.
Are you implying that the flu, or whatever sickness everyone has is from the zombie infection? You're making multiple assumptions to tie this together.
No, the flu is enhanced BY the zombie infection and near-death experiences or infections cures you. So far we know that:
- Everyone is infected - When you die, you turn - The infection can be stopped prematurely, by cutting off the body part that was bit (see Hershell)
So my proposal here (although far fetched, gives explanations) is that if you are in a state of near death and you survive, the zombie infection cures itself. If everyone is actually infected, being close to death, should give people a really hard time to not turn. It could also explain why Hershell and Carl doesn't get the illness. Their bodies have some kind of resistance, so either they don't get sick at all, or the flu wouldn't hitting them so hard they're coughing up blood like the rest.
I really hope there will be more in season 4 about the infection, because for all we know now, is that if you die you turn and France was the only country to get near a cure.
We don't even know if it's a generic flu, they just call it a flu. You're trying to theorycraft a possibility (that can't be proven) which is more complex than the easy answer that like many other illnesses, sometimes certain people happen to obtain immunity before they're infected, and that it's completely unrelated to the zombie infection. Coincidences exist, but it's no coincidence (pun intended) how often this show comes to rely on coincidences to move the plot forward.
On November 19 2013 06:06 Sent. wrote: I don't want to complain because I think it's still much better than season 2 or 3 but I don't understand why they are trying to redeem the Governor. He was an irrational psycho and now they're making him look like he's a good guy who just made some mistakes in the past. Decent person doesn't collect human heads. Merle's redemption was passable but this is just stupid.
They haven't portrayed him as a good guy, they just portrayed him as a human. Chances are he's still psychotic, but he has a soft spot for girls resembling his own deceased daughter. I don't think it's farfetch'd to believe that finding that girl filled the void which drove him to insanity at the end of season 3, and likely his insanity which existed since his daughter had turned, and that should be apparent considering the entirety of season 3 he was in denial of her death and never got over it. If he became sane, it wouldn't be impossible, though I can't imagine season 4 will end before he goes psychotic again. But now we get to explore the complexity of his character.
"Hitting themes that are a little too complex?"
I'm sorry, but did you just imply that TWD is a complex show? The show where 90% of all decisions made are poor decisions? The show that Romero himself called a soap opera?
Up to this point, the Governor has been portrayed as a murderous psychopathic bastard who killed people and stuck their heads in jars in a private viewing room with his zombie daughter. Let me repeat that: [b]killed people, stuck their heads in jars, and played house with his zombie daughter.
Example of a morally "gray" character: Rick. Example of evil paper cutout: the Governor.
The last episode doesn't work because they spent a season and a half establishing the Governor as 100% bona-fide pure-bred evil prick. It's like documenting the crimes of Jeffrey Dahmer and then adding in a throwaway scene about how nice he was to the girl next door. Who gives a shit? I personally don't give a fuck if Adolph Hitler took in a lost cat and treated it super, super well when he was six years old.
Moral ambiguity only works if you establish it from the beginning and keep it consistent, which in the case of the Governor they absolutely did not. In every social situation the Governor chose the renegade option every fucking time.
But no, I apologize, I'm sure the Governor's character is just too complex for my amoeba brain to comprehend, not the result of, I dunno, fantastically poor writing (which this show is known for).
On November 19 2013 13:00 LoLAdriankat wrote: My prediction for Philip Blake is that he loses his new family, takes control of Caesar's group, and then becomes The Governor again, mirroring his story before the Woodbury chapter of his life. You know, because this show loves cliches so much.
It's Brian mate.
Philip Blake is his real name. Brian Heriot is his new name, which he found written on a wall while he was travelling on his own.
Philip Blake is TV Governor's actual name. Comic Governor's real name is Brian Blake, but he adopted his brother's name, Philip, after his brother died.
On November 19 2013 06:55 rd wrote: I thought episode 5 was going to be one of the best of the entire show but this episode comes close. The contrast in quality of the episodes between seasons 2-3 and the past 6 is remarkably huge, I don't know how people can complain.
On November 18 2013 12:25 jeeeeohn wrote: Wow, this episode had absolutely no connection to anything. I didn't give one shit about these new people, and I wish the zombie horde at the end had killed all of them. Why do these people matter? What's going on at the prison? Why are they suddenly making the governor sympathetic after he's already committed terrible, unforgivable atrocities? Jeesh, what a throwaway episode.
And it looks like there's going to be another one next week just like it. I think I'm going to clock out here, folks.
Only in children's stories are the characters ever black and white with clearly defined good and evil. One of the main themes of TWD is how blurred that line becomes. If you can't understand why they'd try to portray the story from the Governor's side of the story, then you should have stopped watching from the start. This show might be hitting themes a little too complex for you.
On November 18 2013 19:34 Sponkz wrote:
On November 16 2013 01:22 rd wrote:
On November 15 2013 18:54 Sponkz wrote:[/B Hey everyone, I'm not sure if anyone has discussed this, but i think I've figured something out.
Right now there are survivors and survivors. You can clearly see who got over the zombie-infection and who still has the potential to turn into a walker when they die. Hershell being able to take care of the ill without getting any symptoms has a realistic explaination. He was bit and had his leg cut off, therefore he has immunity to the illness that seems somewhat harsher on the people that are still zombie-infected (who coughs blood up from a regular cold normally? No one).
Secondly there's Carl. Carl back in Season 2 got shot and he nearly died. I believe, that this is the reason why he also isn't getting the cold that kills people. Rick as well got into a coma BEFORE the zombie attack and SURVIVED and therefore he's also "cured". This also makes it possible for Glenn to get the sickness (which he did), because he hasn't had a near-death experience.
Are you implying that the flu, or whatever sickness everyone has is from the zombie infection? You're making multiple assumptions to tie this together.
No, the flu is enhanced BY the zombie infection and near-death experiences or infections cures you. So far we know that:
- Everyone is infected - When you die, you turn - The infection can be stopped prematurely, by cutting off the body part that was bit (see Hershell)
So my proposal here (although far fetched, gives explanations) is that if you are in a state of near death and you survive, the zombie infection cures itself. If everyone is actually infected, being close to death, should give people a really hard time to not turn. It could also explain why Hershell and Carl doesn't get the illness. Their bodies have some kind of resistance, so either they don't get sick at all, or the flu wouldn't hitting them so hard they're coughing up blood like the rest.
I really hope there will be more in season 4 about the infection, because for all we know now, is that if you die you turn and France was the only country to get near a cure.
We don't even know if it's a generic flu, they just call it a flu. You're trying to theorycraft a possibility (that can't be proven) which is more complex than the easy answer that like many other illnesses, sometimes certain people happen to obtain immunity before they're infected, and that it's completely unrelated to the zombie infection. Coincidences exist, but it's no coincidence (pun intended) how often this show comes to rely on coincidences to move the plot forward.
On November 19 2013 06:06 Sent. wrote: I don't want to complain because I think it's still much better than season 2 or 3 but I don't understand why they are trying to redeem the Governor. He was an irrational psycho and now they're making him look like he's a good guy who just made some mistakes in the past. Decent person doesn't collect human heads. Merle's redemption was passable but this is just stupid.
They haven't portrayed him as a good guy, they just portrayed him as a human. Chances are he's still psychotic, but he has a soft spot for girls resembling his own deceased daughter. I don't think it's farfetch'd to believe that finding that girl filled the void which drove him to insanity at the end of season 3, and likely his insanity which existed since his daughter had turned, and that should be apparent considering the entirety of season 3 he was in denial of her death and never got over it. If he became sane, it wouldn't be impossible, though I can't imagine season 4 will end before he goes psychotic again. But now we get to explore the complexity of his character.
"Hitting themes that are a little too complex?"
I'm sorry, but did you just imply that TWD is a complex show? The show where 90% of all decisions made are poor decisions? The show that Romero himself called a soap opera?
Up to this point, the Governor has been portrayed as a murderous psychopathic bastard who killed people and stuck their heads in jars in a private viewing room with his zombie daughter. Let me repeat that: [b]killed people, stuck their heads in jars, and played house with his zombie daughter.
Example of a morally "gray" character: Rick. Example of evil paper cutout: the Governor.
The last episode doesn't work because they spent a season and a half establishing the Governor as 100% bona-fide pure-bred evil prick. It's like documenting the crimes of Jeffrey Dahmer and then adding in a throwaway scene about how nice he was to the girl next door. Who gives a shit? I personally don't give a fuck if Adolph Hitler took in a lost cat and treated it super, super well when he was six years old.
Moral ambiguity only works if you establish it from the beginning and keep it consistent, which in the case of the Governor they absolutely did not. In every social situation the Governor chose the renegade option every fucking time.
But no, I apologize, I'm sure the Governor's character is just too complex for my amoeba brain to comprehend, not the result of, I dunno, fantastically poor writing (which this show is known for).
Sure TWD has its share of complexity if you keep an open mind and pay attention. People just seem to be incapable of moving on from the dumb moments, and yeah there's a fair share of those throughout the series but it's blown way out of proportion.
As for the governor, I think you're being unfair. They kinda did introduce the idea that he was once a good father and husband (or so we assume...) with the dark desire of authority prior to the outbreak. He obviously kept the zombie daughter around because he was holding out for a cure (which was probably why he was performing experiments on the zombies). It's also why he has such an intense vendetta against Michonne. In other words, they have introduced at least some degree of compassion in the governor that did not serve his megalomania. So he's not 100% evil all the time.
Now before you flip your lid, I don't think he's redeemable at this point, and frankly I don't think the writers of this show can pull off the feat of making us believe he is either down the line. This episode is still passable though, because pretty much every good deed he did was for the little girl who reminds him of his own child (and the slow sloppily made that profoundly apparent). This is consistent with what was briefly introduced in the season prior, so I'd say it works. For all we know he's still a psychotic asshole who just had a brief return to humanity (what I'm hoping for).
On November 20 2013 08:48 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: In other words, they have introduced at least some degree of compassion in the governor that did not serve his megalomania.
mmm, no. it's not absolutely spelled out but I have zero problems identifying a megalomaniacal streak in a person that, understanding most facts of the TWD zombie phenomenon, still thinks he's good enough to solve the outbreak with zero resources. sure, it's coached under the same dilemma of cutting ties with the dead that's been with the show since the first episode, but morgan and even herschel approached the issue far more realistically. indeed, like walter white, once you know the broad strokes of the character it's impossible to separate the character from the action and I can't read this particular choice in any way besides gloriously insane overconfidence that he can somehow affect the problem.
morgan and herschel were passively coping with limited information. da gov was actively going against the entire reality of his new world and performing frankenstein experiments alongside igor/milton.
I don't know about anyone else, but the chess scene comes close to the most powerful scene I have seen in a show in a long time, it's up there with the walt/hank garage scene in BB
On November 20 2013 09:26 Sedzz wrote: I don't know about anyone else, but the chess scene comes close to the most powerful scene I have seen in a show in a long time, it's up there with the walt/hank garage scene in BB
On November 20 2013 00:36 hzflank wrote: There is no way that the gov ends up on good terms with Rick. Even if they could stop Michone from taking his head off, Daryl won't forgive him for killing Merle.
how about the guvna having a change of heart because he sees his daughter with the new girl and saves mishone/daryl by giving an arm or a leg for them hershel style for whatever reason while wanting to save the girl because that how he rolls? nothing is impossible in a make believe show.
On November 20 2013 00:36 hzflank wrote: There is no way that the gov ends up on good terms with Rick. Even if they could stop Michone from taking his head off, Daryl won't forgive him for killing Merle.
how about the guvna having a change of heart because he sees his daughter with the new girl and saves mishone/daryl by giving an arm or a leg for them hershel style for whatever reason while wanting to save the girl because that how he rolls? nothing is impossible in a make believe show.
He might have a change of heart, but the group won't. Michonne blames him for the death of Andrea (the only good thing he's ever done IMO), Daryl blames him for the brainwashing/death of Merle, and he sexually assaulted Maggie while leaving Glenn to get tortured. That's four characters at least who want him dead.
On November 20 2013 00:36 hzflank wrote: There is no way that the gov ends up on good terms with Rick. Even if they could stop Michone from taking his head off, Daryl won't forgive him for killing Merle.
how about the guvna having a change of heart because he sees his daughter with the new girl and saves mishone/daryl by giving an arm or a leg for them hershel style for whatever reason while wanting to save the girl because that how he rolls? nothing is impossible in a make believe show.
He might have a change of heart, but the group won't. Michonne blames him for the death of Andrea (the only good thing he's ever done IMO), Daryl blames him for the brainwashing/death of Merle, and he sexually assaulted Maggie while leaving Glenn to get tortured. That's four characters at least who want him dead.
yeah that is why I would like to have that as a challenge to the writers, if they could come up with any twist that would make the show more unpredictable I think they can break the stagnant storyline. Actually, when I was really hoping he carol killing thing would be bigger but it was a meh, the writers were like we wont kill you but you can take a leave from the show and we can inject you to bring excitement if things really go bad thing. They could have develop that incident into something interesting other than just letting her go.
On November 20 2013 00:36 hzflank wrote: There is no way that the gov ends up on good terms with Rick. Even if they could stop Michone from taking his head off, Daryl won't forgive him for killing Merle.
how about the guvna having a change of heart because he sees his daughter with the new girl and saves mishone/daryl by giving an arm or a leg for them hershel style for whatever reason while wanting to save the girl because that how he rolls? nothing is impossible in a make believe show.
He might have a change of heart, but the group won't. Michonne blames him for the death of Andrea (the only good thing he's ever done IMO), Daryl blames him for the brainwashing/death of Merle, and he sexually assaulted Maggie while leaving Glenn to get tortured. That's four characters at least who want him dead.
yeah that is why I would like to have that as a challenge to the writers, if they could come up with any twist that would make the show more unpredictable I think they can break the stagnant storyline. Actually, when I was really hoping he carol killing thing would be bigger but it was a meh, the writers were like we wont kill you but you can take a leave from the show and we can inject you to bring excitement if things really go bad thing. They could have develop that incident into something interesting other than just letting her go.
That incident isn't over and done with yet. We have yet to see the reactions of Daryl, Tyreese and the children to what went down. It could be interesting still, with extremists and moderates on both sides. I thought her departure was quite nicely done, marking the return of Rick as the dude who ultimately steps up and makes the calls. It didn't need to be bigger than it was, the event just sets up bigger things, hopefully.
What do you mean "not doing anything?" He forced her to strip out of her clothes and bent her over on the table, that's sexual assault. He didn't rape her, but the implication that the Governor was threatening to rape her was certainly there.
Not so much filler as showing how the Governor is going to show up to the prison in the next episode. If they skipped it, everyone would have been like "oh how did he get followers and a tank wtf so unrealistic". It also gave him motivation (other than revenge) to go back and attack.
On a side note, I love seeing Kirk Acevedo, he's such a cool side actor. Miss him on Fringe.
Doesn't make sense, none have vehicles, except Rick's group so how have they not stumbled upon each other? They are all within walking distance of each other and even then not heard the gun battles etc?
Driving distance != walking distance. Not to mention in thick forest like that, it's pretty easy for the sound of gunshots to travel less than a mile or something. With roads out, big forests, and limited use of vehicles (well, the prison group had more since they had a lot of gas, but before that they didn't), it's not unreasonable that they'd never bump into one another.
EPT
