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On May 11 2016 05:16 ForTehDarkseid wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2016 05:13 hunter_x wrote:On May 11 2016 05:11 ForTehDarkseid wrote:
@hunter_x, S A L T.
I fucking love ppd. And I know he doesn't care about group stage whatsoever. Look at last ban WD. Please try to explain it. You can't say a drafter is serious mode one when he considers Lion/WD core. why do you think im salty? people always think that lol. i just saw a dumb comment and answered that;) Obviously a remark about LGD, lol. As long as they beat iG tmrw, they are playing nice bracket with all top Chinese team for Summit 5 invite, we'd see how they fare. It's really irrelevant to the point how uninspired TS's plays were today. RTZ is simply abysmal on his supposedly comfort heroes, what else to say. Suma1l outplays him in a mid 9 times out of 10 unless miracle happenned. PPD always rely on studying others, and therefore doesn't have picks down, until he has a bigger sample to copy strats from.
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Xiao8's team has been doing well, though that could just be because of the teams they're playing against; we'll see how well they do today, but they're not a team you can just ignore. As many of us said, they're still the Chinese team with the best players. Though right now, obviously, Newbee is the team everyone's looking at.
The teams we haven't seen in a long time are the two Chinese invite teams, which we won't see until a week before Manila. They're the teams that no one will know going into Manila, and which won't necessarily do as well as they did in the past. We'll find out whether it was just a one time success when they play.
Personally, I've been looking at public game results from a few of these teams' top players, and VGR's middle player has not being doing very well, while Xiao8's team's players have all been doing well.
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On May 11 2016 06:38 Azarkon wrote:
Xiao8's team has been doing well, though that could just be because of the teams they're playing against; we'll see how well they do today, but they're not a team you can just ignore. As many of us said, they're still the Chinese team with the best players. Though right now, obviously, Newbee is the team everyone's looking at.
The teams we haven't seen in a long time are the two Chinese invite teams, which we won't see until a week before Manila. They're the teams that no one will know going into Manila, and which won't necessarily do as well as they did in the past. We'll find out whether it was just a one time success when they play.
Personally, I've been looking at public game results from a few of these teams' top players, and Maybe and Kaka are the two players who are doing the best at the moment. Xiao8's also getting up there in MMR. On the other hand, VGR's middle player isn't doing so well. Newbee are peaking way too early to win the major. I would be surprised, if they are within Top 8.
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United States47024 Posts
Outside of top 8 is an overly bold claim, given that past "peaked too early" teams usually still made it to top 8 at past TIs.
Even Secret's implosion at TI5 didn't keep them out of top 8.
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who even are the "peaked too early" teams?
Secret TI5, (top 8)
EG/DK TI4, (3/4)
uhhh alliance TI3? xd (still won xd)
forget ti2 and ti1 doesn't count
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United States47024 Posts
If we're considering the de-facto best team months before the event, TI2's would probably be Na'Vi and they still placed 2nd, lol.
Admittedly that's not as relevant because TI2 was before Icefrog really adopted the practice of nerfing the most dominant strategy of the last major tournament into the ground.
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On May 11 2016 06:56 Dracolich70 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2016 06:38 Azarkon wrote:
Xiao8's team has been doing well, though that could just be because of the teams they're playing against; we'll see how well they do today, but they're not a team you can just ignore. As many of us said, they're still the Chinese team with the best players. Though right now, obviously, Newbee is the team everyone's looking at.
The teams we haven't seen in a long time are the two Chinese invite teams, which we won't see until a week before Manila. They're the teams that no one will know going into Manila, and which won't necessarily do as well as they did in the past. We'll find out whether it was just a one time success when they play.
Personally, I've been looking at public game results from a few of these teams' top players, and Maybe and Kaka are the two players who are doing the best at the moment. Xiao8's also getting up there in MMR. On the other hand, VGR's middle player isn't doing so well. Newbee are peaking way too early to win the major. I would be surprised, if they are within Top 8.
They'll be studied. Already you see PPD studying the Chinese teams as I'm pretty sure that strategy in the second game was made from the Chinese strategy we saw last month. Puppey and the others are trying to find their own way, but knowing EternalEnvy it is certain that they're going to be watching the Chinese teams' every move. Newbee is giving up a lot in this tournament. Whether they win, the other teams are all getting to learn exactly what they need to learn for Manila - how Newbee plays and why it's effective. There are too many games of Newbee for them to do come into Manila without every team knowing exactly how they play.
That's the problem with being the top team before the big tournament. Secret was in the same place last year.
Manila will see a team win that plays differently than any team does right now. Could be MVP, could be VGR, could even be a team in this tournament that changes the way it plays but not, I think, Newbee because Newbee isn't a team that suddenly changes its strategy.
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It's still possible NB just straight up plays better and that their wins don't come from strategy alone. This hasn't really been the case any team I think for a long time(maybe occasional brilliance from MVP, hard to say), but it's still a possibility. If that's the case it really doesn't matter if they get figured out.
That said I really don't believe that, as NB seems nothing special in their laning and movements etc. Only thing that really stands out so far IMO are the teamfights. Kpii's movement is especially amazing. That one tidehunter game he kept diverting the other team's attention so hao/mu could do work.
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On May 11 2016 07:24 Andre wrote:
It's still possible NB just straight up plays better and that their wins don't come from strategy alone. This hasn't really been the case any team I think for a long time(maybe occasional brilliance from MVP, hard to say), but it's still a possibility. If that's the case it really doesn't matter if they get figured out.
That said I really don't believe that, as NB seems nothing special in their laning and movements etc. Only thing that really stands out so far IMO are the teamfights. Kpii's movement is especially amazing. That one tidehunter game he kept diverting the other team's attention so hao/mu could do work.
I don't think there is a clear 'strat' for Newbee.
From what I saw is this team rotate more than any other team in the tournament. They play wisp a lot, TPs a lot and build bot earlier than most of the team.
And their disengagement is beautiful, even when the fight goes the other direction, their loss is minimized. Usually you can see only Chuan or Kaka sacrificed, and the entire squad retreat successfully.
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On May 11 2016 07:24 Andre wrote:
It's still possible NB just straight up plays better and that their wins don't come from strategy alone. This hasn't really been the case any team I think for a long time(maybe occasional brilliance from MVP, hard to say), but it's still a possibility. If that's the case it really doesn't matter if they get figured out.
That said I really don't believe that, as NB seems nothing special in their laning and movements etc. Only thing that really stands out so far IMO are the teamfights. Kpii's movement is especially amazing. That one tidehunter game he kept diverting the other team's attention so hao/mu could do work.
Their early game is average, but their middle and late game moves are fast and effective. You can tell because they will just about always catch people out and force team fights when they look for them. They are also very fast to respond to moves from other teams. This is similar in many ways to MVP, who also love to force fights. The difference is that MVP plays less well from behind.
Such moves can be read in time by other teams, and they'll find out how to play around it. They'll also learn how to do it themselves. That's what Newbee is doing - the longer they win, the harder people will look at and copy them.
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On May 11 2016 05:54 ForTehDarkseid wrote:
>pretty weak opponents
>every good Western team aside from freshly reformed EG/TS + LGD which eventually took 3rd.
Last time I checked, Vega didn't win 3-0. And didn't you notice the vast array of strats Wings used to achieve that? Liquid are losing the games after getting a lead early on every single tournament, don't know the reasons really. Will be interesting to see how they play against Newbee, true.
It's not about the results of the grand finals. What i meant with that was, Vega won something, but after that win, they havent done anything noteworthy. Liquid are still super consistent since some month, they place high in any tournament they enter. And as i said, Newbee havent won jet. Having a 29 game win streak does mean nothing, if u dont win tournaments.
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Not saying that Newbee will win Manila or anything but knowing what a good team is doing and know how to respond to it are two completely different things. People knew how Alliance was playing but they still smashed everyone and won TI3. Personally I think Newbee will be more likely to drop games against a less profile team in Manila (if they continue to dominate until then obviously) than against a big names like Secret or EG. It's not just Puppey or ppd who knows how to study games, the Chinese do too, especially on top tier Western teams.
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Just so everyone is aware I am 95% confident that PPD was just testing newbee today to try a couple strats and poke at them to see what they are about. I watched the games again and you can tell that they are def trying to win, but trying some stupid shit or running stuff for the first time. Although they could have tried hard 100%, there is so much more to learn in a loss esp. against a hot team like NB. Being a fan of EG, theres an unusual feeling you get about todays game.
I see EG>NB later in this tourny
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Newbee aren't even really doing anything special imo - they just play really good and have excellent teamwork. Their drafts seem quite versatile, and cover a lot of bases.
On May 11 2016 09:05 Steelavocado wrote:
Just so everyone is aware I am 95% confident that PPD was just testing newbee today to try a couple strats and poke at them to see what they are about. I watched the games again and you can tell that they are def trying to win, but trying some stupid shit or running stuff for the first time. Although they could have tried hard 100%, there is so much more to learn in a loss esp. against a hot team like NB. Being a fan of EG, theres an unusual feeling you get about todays game.
I see EG>NB later in this tourny
I'd go with your 5% here and say that I highly doubt that they were just 'sussing out' Newbee, because if that's the case then that's _almost_ guaranteeing them to lose that game, and in turn potentially be in the LB depending on the final group stage game as a result.
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On May 11 2016 07:33 CxWiLL wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2016 07:24 Andre wrote:
It's still possible NB just straight up plays better and that their wins don't come from strategy alone. This hasn't really been the case any team I think for a long time(maybe occasional brilliance from MVP, hard to say), but it's still a possibility. If that's the case it really doesn't matter if they get figured out.
That said I really don't believe that, as NB seems nothing special in their laning and movements etc. Only thing that really stands out so far IMO are the teamfights. Kpii's movement is especially amazing. That one tidehunter game he kept diverting the other team's attention so hao/mu could do work. I don't think there is a clear 'strat' for Newbee. From what I saw is this team rotate more than any other team in the tournament. They play wisp a lot, TPs a lot and build bot earlier than most of the team. And their disengagement is beautiful, even when the fight goes the other direction, their loss is minimized. Usually you can see only Chuan or Kaka sacrificed, and the entire squad retreat successfully.
This basically it, NB works well in team fight
their draft were "meh", Secret's Huskar wrecks their draft
they're about to lost the game if its not for Gyro's Rapier
they don't have enough physicall damage against Krobelus and Sacred Warrior
against EG second game is the same, it is down to EG rushing to mid while alchemist not having buy back
they key is their team fights, they go in and out very efficiently
core brought to near death, gets out of the battle and wisp heals then reengage
they also assess situation very quick and minimalize damages
against secret immortal huskar for example
where secret were down to 2 (+1 bcoz tauren chieftain bought back) then suddenly huskar turns immortal
they do not force kill him, and instead regroup and only had 2 casualties
there were also example of this during match vs EG where Weaver dive into T3 tower to kill alchemist
the dive fail, one of EG bought back and reengage them, but again clutch reading minimize casualties
also mentioning the defensive and offensive force staff that is so next level
there is no definite strategy or hero for them
unlike Wings for example that plays around vision
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I hope OG makes it into the upper bracket so we can keep spamming 9 0 0 0 M A T C H M A K I N G P O I N T S throughout the tourney
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Thing is, Newbee is playing amazingly well, and EG - most especially PPD - are known for improving throughout a tournament as they play, so if they match up in the finals, we'd likely see a much closer series.
That said, those discounting Newbee's win are forgetting how dominant the Hao+Mu tandem are at their peak (arguably the most potent 1-2 punch we've seen in Dota 2 history, stronger than Xboct-Dendi, Loda-S4, Fear-Sumail, RTZ-S4, Burning-Super/Mushi, Zhou-430, etc). With kpii chuan and kaka playing safe and stellar Dota, it's easy enough to conclude that they're not really peaking to early but have simply found their stride.
This isn't to say that they're automatically the favorites. They have less room for growth IMO and I think EG, Secret, VGR and MVP can easily hit their level once the chemistry of those teams increase. Arguably, peak MVP can take on Newbee right now.
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Newbee are just playing godlike. They have stable drafting and their support duo is the best out of all the teams. Not sure you can just counter them with drafting or a certain playstyle. They seem to adapt very well to the whatever tempo the other team is trying to set. Other teams are going to have to find a way to set the pace and force Newbee into making more mistakes, but they seem so good on minimizing them.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES50612 Posts
On May 11 2016 11:16 plasmidghost wrote:
I hope OG makes it into the upper bracket so we can keep spamming 9 0 0 0 M A T C H M A K I N G P O I N T S throughout the tourney
oh god no.
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EPT
