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On May 10 2016 03:39 Piledriver wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2016 03:35 Dracolich70 wrote:On May 10 2016 03:30 WolfintheSheep wrote:On May 10 2016 03:15 Dracolich70 wrote:On May 10 2016 03:13 ForTehDarkseid wrote:
I certainly wouldn't have decribed qojqva as a decent dota player. In most peoples books he is. He was always amazing at farming. And completely mediocre with item choices and decision making. Of course, I haven't seen many of No Diggity's games, so maybe he's gotten better. He carried TL, Tinker and Mouz, and is considered to be one of the best young players. I wouldn't say farming is his focal point. Rather mechanical skills. Needless to say he has been away for awhile, and therefore needs to more competitive play like some of his team mates. "Carried" is stretching a bit. He always choked after soaking up the farm around the map with his extremely passive play style. People tend to look at players who took a break / went away from the scene with rose tinted glasses, but forget that they took the break for a reason - they were horribly underperforming. Qojqva was great during/before TI3 days, but he has been consistently mediocre/sub par afterwards, aside from Liquid's respectable TI4 performance. On many of those teams, Qojqva held a high quality, despite his team mates didn't. He took a break because it was an uphill battle over 3 teams, not because he did poorly.
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PLD was pretty obviously the best player on Mouz by a mile and Bulba was the only other decent one. Anyone who thinks Qojqva carried them (carried them to what, by the way?) confuses me greatly.
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On May 10 2016 03:50 Dracolich70 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2016 03:39 Piledriver wrote:On May 10 2016 03:35 Dracolich70 wrote:On May 10 2016 03:30 WolfintheSheep wrote:On May 10 2016 03:15 Dracolich70 wrote:On May 10 2016 03:13 ForTehDarkseid wrote:
I certainly wouldn't have decribed qojqva as a decent dota player. In most peoples books he is. He was always amazing at farming. And completely mediocre with item choices and decision making. Of course, I haven't seen many of No Diggity's games, so maybe he's gotten better. He carried TL, Tinker and Mouz, and is considered to be one of the best young players. I wouldn't say farming is his focal point. Rather mechanical skills. Needless to say he has been away for awhile, and therefore needs to more competitive play like some of his team mates. "Carried" is stretching a bit. He always choked after soaking up the farm around the map with his extremely passive play style. People tend to look at players who took a break / went away from the scene with rose tinted glasses, but forget that they took the break for a reason - they were horribly underperforming. Qojqva was great during/before TI3 days, but he has been consistently mediocre/sub par afterwards, aside from Liquid's respectable TI4 performance. On many of those teams, Qojqva held a high quality, despite his team mates didn't. He took a break because it was an uphill battle over 3 teams, not because he did poorly.
This is like MMR-Hell logic
I mean sure qojqva has had some stinker teammates but still
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On May 10 2016 03:53 FuzzyJAM wrote:
PLD was pretty obviously the best player on Mouz by a mile and Bulba was the only other decent one. Anyone who thinks Qojqva carried them (carried them to what, by the way?) confuses me greatly. PLD and Bulba?
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On May 10 2016 03:53 Sn0_Man wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2016 03:50 Dracolich70 wrote:On May 10 2016 03:39 Piledriver wrote:On May 10 2016 03:35 Dracolich70 wrote:On May 10 2016 03:30 WolfintheSheep wrote:On May 10 2016 03:15 Dracolich70 wrote:On May 10 2016 03:13 ForTehDarkseid wrote:
I certainly wouldn't have decribed qojqva as a decent dota player. In most peoples books he is. He was always amazing at farming. And completely mediocre with item choices and decision making. Of course, I haven't seen many of No Diggity's games, so maybe he's gotten better. He carried TL, Tinker and Mouz, and is considered to be one of the best young players. I wouldn't say farming is his focal point. Rather mechanical skills. Needless to say he has been away for awhile, and therefore needs to more competitive play like some of his team mates. "Carried" is stretching a bit. He always choked after soaking up the farm around the map with his extremely passive play style. People tend to look at players who took a break / went away from the scene with rose tinted glasses, but forget that they took the break for a reason - they were horribly underperforming. Qojqva was great during/before TI3 days, but he has been consistently mediocre/sub par afterwards, aside from Liquid's respectable TI4 performance. On many of those teams, Qojqva held a high quality, despite his team mates didn't. He took a break because it was an uphill battle over 3 teams, not because he did poorly. This is like MMR-Hell logic I mean sure qojqva has had some stinker teammates but still Well, it is a lot more valuable what Pro players consider, than someone that tries to throw something like this outthere, "but he doesn't play a winning style and icefrog is moving dota away from his style in any case. ", while trying to slate others knowledge on the game. Could you please explain what you are actually trying to say with this?
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Yes but not only are pro players wrong reasonably often (see: biryu), you also haven't actually cited any. I too can say "pro players agree with me" and not back it up whatsoever.
In addition to that, pro players disagree with each other, so the statements "Pro players think qojqva sucks" and "Pro players respect qojqva's skills" aren't even contradictory.
The clearest proof of skill is results. No diggity don't have them.
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On May 10 2016 04:06 Sn0_Man wrote:
Yes but not only are pro players wrong reasonably often (see: biryu), you also haven't actually cited any. I too can say "pro players agree with me" and not back it up whatsoever.
In addition to that, pro players disagree with each other, so the statements "Pro players think qojqva sucks" and "Pro players respect qojqva's skills" aren't even contradictory.
The clearest proof of skill is results. No diggity don't have them. I believe there is a far bit more proof for them to evaluate Qojqva than Biryu. At the end of the day it carries far more than some moderator that tries to underwhelm everyone with his vague and ultimately meaningless statements.
So in other words you need results, to evaluate individual skills. Interesting.
DiG has no results?
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Sanya12364 Posts
I'm with sn0_man here. I believe dota is moving away from Qojqva's farm heavy style that exerts no map influence. A lot of time it's like playing 4v5(+1) for half of the dota game (minutes 10-30). Just think if you had this really farm heavy carry that denied farm to the rest of your team.
If any team just amps up the map control pressure and doesn't throw then game is hard.
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Qojqva is hella overrated
Everyone always blames the + 4 but then you all forget that players like sumail, miracle and rtz were able to distinguish themselves without a great supporting cast leading to them later joining good teams.
We should call it Black^ syndrome
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On May 10 2016 04:19 Spicy_Curry wrote:
Qojqva is hella overrated
Everyone always blames the + 4 but then you all forget that players like sumail, miracle and rtz were able to distinguish themselves without a great supporting cast leading to them later joining good teams.
We should call it Black^ syndrome There is little proof of Sumail, since he had great supporting casts, but Miracle didn't achieve much with W33 in Balkan bears.
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Sanya12364 Posts
On May 10 2016 04:19 Spicy_Curry wrote:
Qojqva is hella overrated
Everyone always blames the + 4 but then you all forget that players like sumail, miracle and rtz were able to distinguish themselves without a great supporting cast leading to them later joining good teams.
We should call it Black^ syndrome
RTZ has much of the same problem, especially in the carry role.
Sumail and miracle are tempo and map control players. Those are highly valuable. The strongest hint that EG would emerge stronger after the RTZ+Zai loss was the fact that Sumail was not the farm suck that RTZ was.
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On May 10 2016 04:18 TanGeng wrote:
I'm with sn0_man here. I believe dota is moving away from Qojqva's farm heavy style that exerts no map influence. A lot of time it's like playing 4v5(+1) for half of the dota game (minutes 10-30). Just think if you had this really farm heavy carry that denied farm to the rest of your team.
If any team just amps up the map control pressure and doesn't throw then game is hard. The game has been moving into aggessive heavy team play for quite a while. It is all about either participating or splitting the map up. Qojqva either participates or splits up the map.
Qojqva has a lot of participation and often ends with a lot of kills from early to mid, so not sure about the farm heavy thing.
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On May 10 2016 04:23 TanGeng wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2016 04:19 Spicy_Curry wrote:
Qojqva is hella overrated
Everyone always blames the + 4 but then you all forget that players like sumail, miracle and rtz were able to distinguish themselves without a great supporting cast leading to them later joining good teams.
We should call it Black^ syndrome RTZ has much of the same problem, especially in the carry role. Sumail and miracle are tempo and map control players. Those are highly valuable. The strongest hint that EG would emerge stronger after the RTZ+Zai loss was the fact that Sumail was not the farm suck that RTZ was. EG struggled to integrate both RTZ and Sumail, because they are both players that require protection, and with Sumail needing to have mobility and being able to snowball, while RTZ is a farm heavy player, it never quite clicked for them.
EG had to sit betweeen two stools, whether they should cater to Sumail or RTZ, while having Universe to get his farm, it kind of was an uphill battle where Sumail couldn't play to his strengths(nor RTZ).
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Ur talking about a completely different EG
Anyway it's clear that neither of us are going to change each other's minds. Keep on supporting qojqva and maybe he'll be good some day. Would be cool to see.
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On May 10 2016 04:33 Sn0_Man wrote:
Ur talking about a completely different EG
Anyway it's clear that neither of us are going to change each other's minds. Keep on supporting qojqva and maybe he'll be good some day. Would be cool to see. Different EG?
Yeah, it is quite clear that it takes a bit more to pursuade me, than what a week old user could say. Sorry.
In other words, the site you are moderator for, held onto Qojqva for over a year, while he wasn't any good.
It is not that I support Qojqva, but anyone who knows the slightest about the game knows he is a very good player.
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Sanya12364 Posts
On May 10 2016 04:29 Dracolich70 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2016 04:18 TanGeng wrote:
I'm with sn0_man here. I believe dota is moving away from Qojqva's farm heavy style that exerts no map influence. A lot of time it's like playing 4v5(+1) for half of the dota game (minutes 10-30). Just think if you had this really farm heavy carry that denied farm to the rest of your team.
If any team just amps up the map control pressure and doesn't throw then game is hard. The game has been moving into aggessive heavy team play for quite a while. It is all about either participating or splitting the map up. Qojqva either participates or splits up the map. Qojqva has a lot of participation and often ends with a lot of kills from early to mid, so not sure about the farm heavy thing.
I don't know what you are watching but what I've seen is Qojqva teams do not exert the extent of map control that their relative strength to opposing team would suggest.
That's leaving power projection on the table. There are certain heros where he is decent on pressuring the enemy team, but there are too many where he's in a overly safe position.
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On May 10 2016 03:39 Piledriver wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2016 03:35 Dracolich70 wrote:On May 10 2016 03:30 WolfintheSheep wrote:On May 10 2016 03:15 Dracolich70 wrote:On May 10 2016 03:13 ForTehDarkseid wrote:
I certainly wouldn't have decribed qojqva as a decent dota player. In most peoples books he is. He was always amazing at farming. And completely mediocre with item choices and decision making. Of course, I haven't seen many of No Diggity's games, so maybe he's gotten better. He carried TL, Tinker and Mouz, and is considered to be one of the best young players. I wouldn't say farming is his focal point. Rather mechanical skills. Needless to say he has been away for awhile, and therefore needs to more competitive play like some of his team mates. "Carried" is stretching a bit. He always choked after soaking up the farm around the map with his extremely passive play style. People tend to look at players who took a break / went away from the scene with rose tinted glasses, but forget that they took the break for a reason - they were horribly underperforming. Qojqva was great during/before TI3 days, but he has been consistently mediocre/sub par afterwards, aside from Liquid's respectable TI4 performance.
He took a break so he could cocentrate on his final exams. Thats an important thing in germany, you know?
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Who is going to assert pressure? The piss poor supporting cast or Qojqva? We know Qojqva wont do it. Most of the time the other members of his team are equal networth to the cores on the opposing team nullifying the advantage.
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On May 10 2016 04:49 TanGeng wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2016 04:29 Dracolich70 wrote:On May 10 2016 04:18 TanGeng wrote:
I'm with sn0_man here. I believe dota is moving away from Qojqva's farm heavy style that exerts no map influence. A lot of time it's like playing 4v5(+1) for half of the dota game (minutes 10-30). Just think if you had this really farm heavy carry that denied farm to the rest of your team.
If any team just amps up the map control pressure and doesn't throw then game is hard. The game has been moving into aggessive heavy team play for quite a while. It is all about either participating or splitting the map up. Qojqva either participates or splits up the map. Qojqva has a lot of participation and often ends with a lot of kills from early to mid, so not sure about the farm heavy thing. I don't know what you are watching but what I've seen is Qojqva teams do not exert the extent of map control that their relative strength to opposing team would suggest. That's leaving power projection on the table. There are certain heros where he is decent on pressuring the enemy team, but there are too many where he's in a overly safe position. Well, considering DiG has used a lot of offensive warding to gain map awareness and control, while being aggressive in the qualifier, it seems to suggest that they are indeed trying to have map control.
Not sure if you are watching at all.
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Sanya12364 Posts
On May 10 2016 05:26 Dracolich70 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2016 04:49 TanGeng wrote:On May 10 2016 04:29 Dracolich70 wrote:On May 10 2016 04:18 TanGeng wrote:
I'm with sn0_man here. I believe dota is moving away from Qojqva's farm heavy style that exerts no map influence. A lot of time it's like playing 4v5(+1) for half of the dota game (minutes 10-30). Just think if you had this really farm heavy carry that denied farm to the rest of your team.
If any team just amps up the map control pressure and doesn't throw then game is hard. The game has been moving into aggessive heavy team play for quite a while. It is all about either participating or splitting the map up. Qojqva either participates or splits up the map. Qojqva has a lot of participation and often ends with a lot of kills from early to mid, so not sure about the farm heavy thing. I don't know what you are watching but what I've seen is Qojqva teams do not exert the extent of map control that their relative strength to opposing team would suggest. That's leaving power projection on the table. There are certain heros where he is decent on pressuring the enemy team, but there are too many where he's in a overly safe position. Well, considering DiG has used a lot of offensive warding to gain map awareness and control, while being aggressive in the qualifier, it seems to suggest that they are indeed trying to have map control. Not sure if you are watching at all.
I don't see it. Warding and knowledge can be used to farm efficiently or deny farm.
Using it to walk up to the enemy and killing them constantly is different finding a safer place to farm.
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EPT
