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On April 24 2016 02:39 mutantmagnet wrote:
Seriously I had really high expectations for this Secret squad that I expected them to come out roaring like DK 2014 did owning everyone left and right before they got ICefrog patched 3months later slowing their momentum temporarily.
Universe is one of the best offlaners by virtue of being hard to really push him out of lane and deny him the level and farm he gets.
RTZ is a great mid lane farmer.
EE is a very flexible carry.
Obviously DK 2014 had different strengths. Icex3 was one of the best midlaners and he translated that strength into winning the offlane even when against a dual lane. Mushi had a very wide hero pool with his Invoker weakness covered by Burning and Iceiceice. Burning's game sense made for far more stable play than EE.
LanM has always been up there as being one of the best drafters with the biggest difference with Puppy is his larger experience as core and support.
MMY is the one player who is in all counts better instead of arguably different from Pieliedie.
What went so wrong here?
Well it's hard to say what would have happened tomorrow had Secret won, but yesterday imo their drafts were somewhat weak and especially in the 2nd game they also played really poorly.
Today against Empire (though note that I didn't see the 2nd game fully) in the 2nd game they were in control, had one god awful moment where black hole gets stolen and Empire manages to use it to kill 4 people a bit later, and after that the game was really hard draft wise. Although they had Tide+Enigma so in theory their lategame teamfight should have been great, but their lineup was not able to keep on farming after they lost control of the game like that so especially Enigma never became a big force. And in the 3rd game I think the draft was just awkward from Secret. Posted this in Secret thread but repeating here. It's so hard for them to kill people. They have no magic burst, only aoe lockdown was Wyvern ult, and no aoe damage almost either. So their only way to kill people is to hit with their two right clickers. But then if Empire decides they are in a bad position they just sprout+glimpse and run away and lose max 1 hero or something, and if they decide they can turn Secret is just screwed after Nyx stuns the OD and Disruptor ults him. Secret has to snowball pretty hard, but it's not like they really had a way superior early game lineup either.
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On April 24 2016 02:38 Mosoball wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2016 02:36 Kabras wrote:On April 24 2016 02:33 Mosoball wrote:On April 24 2016 02:28 Zea! wrote:
Am I the one who thinks w33's attitude is extremely childish? yea cuz secret is entitled to fucking him over 4 days before roster lock and he should just stfu and take it amirite Well if I am to have a career in a trade, I don't go showing off how idiot I am to thousands of people, including my possible future employers/work buddies.
I think people should stop comparing Dota with actual real life employment, because clearly the Dota industry doesn't view themselves that way. The industry aspires to reach that standard, but refuses to change traditional ways.
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On April 24 2016 02:38 Wintex wrote:
That's not Secret`s fault, but rather Valve`s for implementing a system without two dates.
Well yeah, but it doesnt mean what Secret did was right either. I think most people would agree that w33 is a great player that deserves to be on a tier 1 team, firing him 4 days before roster locks was basically Secret ending his year right there and then, because almost all good teams had completed their rosters at that point. This decision by Secret wouldn't have received such backlash if they informed w33 about their decision like 1-2 wees earlier that will give him time to find another team.
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i dont know if this is true or not.but i always felt like puppey draft around comfort picks instead of counter picking or running certain strats/combo like other teams
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On April 24 2016 02:44 Kamisamanachi wrote:
Black Holes in Empire vs Secret 2:
Enigma: 8 casts, 777 dmg, 0:19 stun
Rubick: 3 casts, 5996 dmg, 0:44 stun
Pretty much. One actually favorable black hole that game in any of the good fights they had (where spec couldn't just haunt in and destroy everyone afterwards) would have decided the game.
Also Secret didn't ever try to group up after a won fight and just yolo push. A lot of them wasted a lot of time while heroes were dead, and some pressure could be applied.
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On April 24 2016 02:43 Wintex wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2016 02:39 mutantmagnet wrote:
Seriously I had really high expectations for this Secret squad that I expected them to come out roaring like DK 2014 did owning everyone left and right before they got ICefrog patched 3months later slowing their momentum temporarily.
Universe is one of the best offlaners by virtue of being hard to really push him out of lane and deny him the level and farm he gets.
RTZ is a great mid lane farmer.
EE is a very flexible carry.
Obviously DK 2014 had different strengths. Icex3 was one of the best midlaners and he translated that strength into winning the offlane even when against a dual lane. Mushi had a very wide hero pool with his Invoker weakness covered by Burning and Iceiceice. Burning's game sense made for far more stable play than EE.
LanM has always been up there as being one of the best drafters with the biggest difference with Puppy is his larger experience as core and support.
MMY is the one player who is in all counts better instead of arguably different from Pieliedie.
What went so wrong here? Archetypes can exist, but people need to be used to playing with each other, need to feel alright, need to play like a team, and need to trust each other. I don't blame Universe for underperforming, exactly cause he was used to PPD's regime and probably needs time to get used to how stuff is done in secret. PLD did stuff, but Puppey wasn't that amazing, EE performed well the first two games, and RTZ tried his best. People will probably blame the one I mentioned last, but 1 player shouldn't shoulder all of the burden. Empire was a better team because they played more like a team.
That last point was very clear throughout the games. All the more ironic with that interview where the captain (?) said the team is new and they have a lot of work to do on communication. If that's what they call a level of synergy that concerns them well he was being too modest or Secret really have a lot of work to do.
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On April 24 2016 02:46 FreakyDroid wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2016 02:38 Wintex wrote:
That's not Secret`s fault, but rather Valve`s for implementing a system without two dates. Well yeah, but it doesnt mean what Secret did was right either. I think most people would agree that w33 is a great player that deserves to be on a tier 1 team, firing him 4 days before roster locks was basically Secret ending his year right there and then, because almost all good teams had completed their rosters.
I agree with you. And I am not a person who thinks w33 is a 2 hero player. He has shown time and time again he has the mechanical prowess to probably excel at most heroes.
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On April 24 2016 02:47 Wintex wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2016 02:46 FreakyDroid wrote:On April 24 2016 02:38 Wintex wrote:
That's not Secret`s fault, but rather Valve`s for implementing a system without two dates. Well yeah, but it doesnt mean what Secret did was right either. I think most people would agree that w33 is a great player that deserves to be on a tier 1 team, firing him 4 days before roster locks was basically Secret ending his year right there and then, because almost all good teams had completed their rosters. I agree with you. And I am not a person who thinks w33 is a 2 hero player. He has shown time and time again he has the mechanical prowess to probably excel at most heroes.
And yet hes only been consistently good on the most op hero in dota, meepo, and occasionally decent on WR. Mechanical skill doesn't mean you're actually good at dota on a pro level.
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ill take miracle or sum1al over w33 any day
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On April 24 2016 02:44 Kabras wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2016 02:38 Mosoball wrote:On April 24 2016 02:36 Kabras wrote:On April 24 2016 02:33 Mosoball wrote:Am I the one who thinks w33's attitude is extremely childish? yea cuz secret is entitled to fucking him over 4 days before roster lock and he should just stfu and take it amirite Well if I am to have a career in a trade, I don't go showing off how idiot I am to thousands of people, including my possible future employers/work buddies. yea yea bring on the business side of things, nobody's ever allowed to say anything about secret no matter how terrible they play. what employer in their right mind would get turned off by that tweet? it's banter at most, indirect at that. u wanna know who looks like an idiot? the guy who weeks ago had a championship winning team and now has this rofl
This. Look at what rtz, sumail and other young guys tweet all the time. No one really cares, we are not real sports....
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On April 24 2016 02:49 Jaaaaasper wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2016 02:47 Wintex wrote:On April 24 2016 02:46 FreakyDroid wrote:On April 24 2016 02:38 Wintex wrote:
That's not Secret`s fault, but rather Valve`s for implementing a system without two dates. Well yeah, but it doesnt mean what Secret did was right either. I think most people would agree that w33 is a great player that deserves to be on a tier 1 team, firing him 4 days before roster locks was basically Secret ending his year right there and then, because almost all good teams had completed their rosters. I agree with you. And I am not a person who thinks w33 is a 2 hero player. He has shown time and time again he has the mechanical prowess to probably excel at most heroes. And yet hes only been consistently good on the most op hero in dota, meepo, and occasionally decent on WR. Mechanical skill doesn't mean you're actually good at dota on a pro level.
Bias is a powerful tool.
On April 24 2016 02:50 Faruko wrote:
ill take miracle or sum1al over w33 any day
You can't really look at dota players on paper cause the full team matters more than an individual player.
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On April 24 2016 02:49 Jaaaaasper wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2016 02:47 Wintex wrote:On April 24 2016 02:46 FreakyDroid wrote:On April 24 2016 02:38 Wintex wrote:
That's not Secret`s fault, but rather Valve`s for implementing a system without two dates. Well yeah, but it doesnt mean what Secret did was right either. I think most people would agree that w33 is a great player that deserves to be on a tier 1 team, firing him 4 days before roster locks was basically Secret ending his year right there and then, because almost all good teams had completed their rosters. I agree with you. And I am not a person who thinks w33 is a 2 hero player. He has shown time and time again he has the mechanical prowess to probably excel at most heroes. And yet hes only been consistently good on the most op hero in dota, meepo, and occasionally decent on WR. Mechanical skill doesn't mean you're actually good at dota on a pro level.
I don't like W33 at all and I don't blame Secret for wanting to get rid of him since the guy is well known for being incredibly cancerous, but to claim that he's only good on Meepo and 'occasionally decent' on WR is insane. He was very solid mechanically overall and his invoker / OD were for sure better than what Arteezy has shown in this tournament at the very least.
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On April 24 2016 02:49 Jaaaaasper wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2016 02:47 Wintex wrote:On April 24 2016 02:46 FreakyDroid wrote:On April 24 2016 02:38 Wintex wrote:
That's not Secret`s fault, but rather Valve`s for implementing a system without two dates. Well yeah, but it doesnt mean what Secret did was right either. I think most people would agree that w33 is a great player that deserves to be on a tier 1 team, firing him 4 days before roster locks was basically Secret ending his year right there and then, because almost all good teams had completed their rosters. I agree with you. And I am not a person who thinks w33 is a 2 hero player. He has shown time and time again he has the mechanical prowess to probably excel at most heroes. And yet hes only been consistently good on the most op hero in dota, meepo, and occasionally decent on WR. Mechanical skill doesn't mean you're actually good at dota on a pro level.
Meepo, WR, Invoker, OD
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Had w33 been booted from the team earlier, I don't think it would have made any sort of difference in terms of what sort of a team he would have been able to get in retrospect. EG could have taken him even now, Alliance was not changing rosters, OG very likely would not have taken him, Tl could have taken him but didn't (they locked their roster really late) so what is left in terms of English speaking teams? DC is a very solid team out of other remaining options. The situation could have been even more terrible for him, but the way things went I don't think the timing impacted the kind of team he could form at all.
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On April 24 2016 02:51 hunter_x wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2016 02:44 Kabras wrote:On April 24 2016 02:38 Mosoball wrote:On April 24 2016 02:36 Kabras wrote:On April 24 2016 02:33 Mosoball wrote:Am I the one who thinks w33's attitude is extremely childish? yea cuz secret is entitled to fucking him over 4 days before roster lock and he should just stfu and take it amirite Well if I am to have a career in a trade, I don't go showing off how idiot I am to thousands of people, including my possible future employers/work buddies. yea yea bring on the business side of things, nobody's ever allowed to say anything about secret no matter how terrible they play. what employer in their right mind would get turned off by that tweet? it's banter at most, indirect at that. u wanna know who looks like an idiot? the guy who weeks ago had a championship winning team and now has this rofl This. Look at what rtz, sumail and other young guys tweet all the time. No one really cares, we are not real sports....
what is the value in becoming like real sports?
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On April 24 2016 02:49 Jaaaaasper wrote:
And yet hes only been consistently good on the most op hero in dota, meepo, and occasionally decent on WR. Mechanical skill doesn't mean you're actually good at dota on a pro level.
Dunno what makes you say that, but I've never watched a game when w33 wasnt doing well for the team and even carrying the team in many games. Secret's problem wasnt w33 or Misery for that matter, and that will become evident in the months leading up to TI, its Puppy and the team's overall approach to draft/decisions.
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Secret's teamplay was better than I expected. They still suffer from the fact their supports now has to babysit two greedy players - all the while PPY is best when jungling, and Universe wants farm. It is also hard to see their strategy direction other than, if greed works, it works.
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On April 24 2016 02:57 Dracolich70 wrote:
Secret's teamplay was better than I expected. They still suffer from the fact their supports now has to babysit two greedy players. It is also hard to see their strategy direction other than, if greed works, it works.
I'm not sure how adding RTZ made him pick naix WW. They added RTZ and universe, and in that game they drafted BM/OD. Those are misery/w33 heroes too, they're just heroes Secret likes to use.
I see Secret's loss on puppey and not the new additions.
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On April 24 2016 02:57 Dracolich70 wrote:
Secret's teamplay was better than I expected. They still suffer from the fact their supports now has to babysit two greedy players - all the while PPY is best when jungling, and Universe wants farm. It is also hard to see their strategy direction other than, if greed works, it works.
Interesting analysis, I think that could be the case as well.
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On April 24 2016 02:56 FreakyDroid wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2016 02:49 Jaaaaasper wrote:
And yet hes only been consistently good on the most op hero in dota, meepo, and occasionally decent on WR. Mechanical skill doesn't mean you're actually good at dota on a pro level. Dunno what makes you say that, but I've never watched a game when w33 wasnt doing well for the team and even carrying the team in many games. Secret's problem wasnt w33 or Misery for that matter, and that will become evident in the months leading up to TI, its Puppy and the team's overall approach to draft/decisions.
Well one of us needs to watch more games, becuase I saw a lot of games where he had to be babby sat leaving other lanes screwed overr.
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EPT
