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United States47024 Posts
On August 29 2012 06:05 rabidch wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2012 05:25 Kipsate wrote:On August 29 2012 05:24 saocyn wrote:On August 29 2012 05:05 Kipsate wrote:
Na'vi almost were getting outplayed by tongfu in the lategame there(where they almost got rax and they got 2 t3 towers)
you can't make those mistakes against teams of iG and LGD's, caliber(or even DK's and Zenith arguably)
It looks decent but it will take a lot more then that to win the International
also you say that but they bootcamped for only a short time while the chinese teams(or atleast iG and LGD) have done so for 3 months or so. are you really trying to argue for why euro and american teams have lack luster performances? honestly? rofl. you have a 75% win percentage for a whole fucking year....dominance and that momentum brings an unstoppable confidence, there is absolutely NO excuse to why navi is under performing. first off you have no clue how long chinese teams have been bootcamping. 2nd, if you want to throw that type of bs argument out euro / american teams have had a YEAR preparation of dota 2 far ahead of asians. and we've seen the skill difference that does in a game like sc2. (compare MVP to any kespa player) you guys just don't want to swallow the cold hard truth, and it's that asians are > all dota teams. oh so easily do people forget who the kings were in d1. the skill difference is clearly showing if a team who's 1 year behind in experience can not only catch up but even outdo the so called best. navi was only keeping the throne warm for the kings to come back and take it. I'm not making excuses O.o. I also think that the Asian teams are a lot better.I saw an interview with Chuan where they said that they bootcamped with LGD for 3 months, it was on reddit/youtube somewhere. calm down a second and take a chill pill. chinese dota is in a state of constant bootcamp, the primarily reason why they're the strongest and most professional scene, comparable to korean practicing for sc2. the real embarassing thing is losing to SEA teams like zenith (clg) and orange (na'vi), who obviously have a lot of talent but have a much more plateau'd scene than any of the others
TBH I think the presence of a consistent offline league like ACE DotA (as opposed to the traditional online play->offline finals) is a huge asset to the major Chinese teams. Even though it's DotA 1, having the experience of playing on LAN week after week consistently is definitely a huge help to the team's nerves and reflects on their performance on LAN.
Gamefy interviewed EHOME after their first loss of the 2nd day, and KingJ said that they made a lot of mistakes due to it being "the first game of the day" and "having a lot on their minds". It definitely shows that they are the only one of the invited Chinese teams to NOT participate in offline Chinese DotA 1 events. Those sorts of things get reduced/eliminated with a significant amount of LAN experience. The players on iG/LGD/DK are ALREADY extremely experienced on LAN, and a recent league like ACE advancing their offline experience definitely further improves their performance in a LAN setting.
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Ehome's players just aren't individually skilled enough, except for X!!, to compete with the top tier teams. At the end of the day, vs. Orange, that's what it came down to. X!! is not able to save the team by himself when he's against 2-3 players of the same caliber on Orange.
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On August 29 2012 06:05 rabidch wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2012 06:18 Lyter wrote:
It's embarassing losing to zenith and orange? what fucking planet are you on
if you look at the kind of scene SEA has compared to the european/NA scene, its been very stagnant for years, unlike euro/NA where new teams are popping up (coL, mTw, etc.) and very fragmented with the vast majority of pinoy teams still playing Dota1. teams like zenith, orange, AEON, MUFC, Ice are strong basically because of dota history, not because the current scene is any good. they havent even had a proper dota2 LAN, while europeans have had starladder and dreamhack. maybe it is an exaggeration to say its embarrassing given the fact that zenith and orange/nirvana/kingsurf/... have always had to form allstar teams to compete on the international level, and SEA gets better experience than china than everywhere else, but I find the SEA scene very backwards in terms of meta right now.
On August 29 2012 07:25 Cel.erity wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2012 06:05 rabidch wrote:On August 29 2012 05:25 Kipsate wrote:On August 29 2012 05:24 saocyn wrote:On August 29 2012 05:05 Kipsate wrote:
Na'vi almost were getting outplayed by tongfu in the lategame there(where they almost got rax and they got 2 t3 towers)
you can't make those mistakes against teams of iG and LGD's, caliber(or even DK's and Zenith arguably)
It looks decent but it will take a lot more then that to win the International
also you say that but they bootcamped for only a short time while the chinese teams(or atleast iG and LGD) have done so for 3 months or so. are you really trying to argue for why euro and american teams have lack luster performances? honestly? rofl. you have a 75% win percentage for a whole fucking year....dominance and that momentum brings an unstoppable confidence, there is absolutely NO excuse to why navi is under performing. first off you have no clue how long chinese teams have been bootcamping. 2nd, if you want to throw that type of bs argument out euro / american teams have had a YEAR preparation of dota 2 far ahead of asians. and we've seen the skill difference that does in a game like sc2. (compare MVP to any kespa player) you guys just don't want to swallow the cold hard truth, and it's that asians are > all dota teams. oh so easily do people forget who the kings were in d1. the skill difference is clearly showing if a team who's 1 year behind in experience can not only catch up but even outdo the so called best. navi was only keeping the throne warm for the kings to come back and take it. I'm not making excuses O.o. I also think that the Asian teams are a lot better.I saw an interview with Chuan where they said that they bootcamped with LGD for 3 months, it was on reddit/youtube somewhere. calm down a second and take a chill pill. chinese dota is in a state of constant bootcamp, the primarily reason why they're the strongest and most professional scene, comparable to korean practicing for sc2. the real embarassing thing is losing to SEA teams like zenith (clg) and orange (na'vi), who obviously have a lot of talent but have a much more plateau'd scene than any of the others Zenith and Orange play together in a LAN setting far more often than CLG or NaVi, and they scrim the top Chinese teams often. I don't know what makes you think the SEA scene is so far removed from Chinese DotA.
because zenith and orange haven't competed against each other in a LAN setting more than once or twice in Dota 2. when was the last time there was a SEA Dota2 LAN tournament?
edit:
back in early march.
On August 29 2012 07:38 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2012 06:05 rabidch wrote:On August 29 2012 05:25 Kipsate wrote:On August 29 2012 05:24 saocyn wrote:On August 29 2012 05:05 Kipsate wrote:
Na'vi almost were getting outplayed by tongfu in the lategame there(where they almost got rax and they got 2 t3 towers)
you can't make those mistakes against teams of iG and LGD's, caliber(or even DK's and Zenith arguably)
It looks decent but it will take a lot more then that to win the International
also you say that but they bootcamped for only a short time while the chinese teams(or atleast iG and LGD) have done so for 3 months or so. are you really trying to argue for why euro and american teams have lack luster performances? honestly? rofl. you have a 75% win percentage for a whole fucking year....dominance and that momentum brings an unstoppable confidence, there is absolutely NO excuse to why navi is under performing. first off you have no clue how long chinese teams have been bootcamping. 2nd, if you want to throw that type of bs argument out euro / american teams have had a YEAR preparation of dota 2 far ahead of asians. and we've seen the skill difference that does in a game like sc2. (compare MVP to any kespa player) you guys just don't want to swallow the cold hard truth, and it's that asians are > all dota teams. oh so easily do people forget who the kings were in d1. the skill difference is clearly showing if a team who's 1 year behind in experience can not only catch up but even outdo the so called best. navi was only keeping the throne warm for the kings to come back and take it. I'm not making excuses O.o. I also think that the Asian teams are a lot better.I saw an interview with Chuan where they said that they bootcamped with LGD for 3 months, it was on reddit/youtube somewhere. calm down a second and take a chill pill. chinese dota is in a state of constant bootcamp, the primarily reason why they're the strongest and most professional scene, comparable to korean practicing for sc2. the real embarassing thing is losing to SEA teams like zenith (clg) and orange (na'vi), who obviously have a lot of talent but have a much more plateau'd scene than any of the others TBH I think the presence of a consistent offline league like ACE DotA (as opposed to the traditional online play->offline finals) is a huge asset to the major Chinese teams. Even though it's DotA 1, having the experience of playing on LAN week after week consistently is definitely a huge help to the team's nerves and reflects on their performance on LAN. Gamefy interviewed EHOME after their first loss of the 2nd day, and KingJ said that they made a lot of mistakes due to it being "the first game of the day" and "having a lot on their minds". It definitely shows that they are the only one of the invited Chinese teams to NOT participate in offline Chinese DotA 1 events. Those sorts of things get reduced/eliminated with a significant amount of LAN experience. The players on iG/LGD/DK are ALREADY extremely experienced on LAN, and a recent league like ACE advancing their offline experience definitely further improves their performance in a LAN setting.
yes, it matters, but EHOME probably has deeper problems than just that
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Brazil1429 Posts
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On August 29 2012 07:42 Azarkon wrote:
Ehome's players just aren't individually skilled enough, except for X!!, to compete with the top tier teams. At the end of the day, vs. Orange, that's what it came down to. X!! is not able to save the team by himself when he's against 2-3 players of the same caliber on Orange.
357 kingj and X are legendary players in the chinese scene, they have huge individual skill.
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United States47024 Posts
Hmm...so Sansheng says that Tongfu has been arguing a lot recently...
On August 29 2012 07:50 rabidch wrote:
yes, it matters, but EHOME probably has deeper problems than just that
Yeah, I'm not trying to make a point about EHOME. Just more the fact that consistent LAN competition (not just primarily online play) has a noticeable effect on the players' nerves, IMO.
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Everyone in mouz except black in top 10 deaths lol
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On August 29 2012 08:02 TheYango wrote:
Hmm...so Sansheng says that Tongfu has been arguing a lot recently...
That sucks. Tongfu looked like they had some real potential few months back.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 29 2012 08:04 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2012 08:02 TheYango wrote:
Hmm...so Sansheng says that Tongfu has been arguing a lot recently... That sucks. Tongfu looked like they had some real potential few months back.
They're capable of playing to iG and LGD's level. It just seems that a combination of individual and team issues has taken it's toll on their performance, and they're not really playing up to snuff at all.
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On August 29 2012 07:50 rabidch wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2012 06:05 rabidch wrote:On August 29 2012 06:18 Lyter wrote:
It's embarassing losing to zenith and orange? what fucking planet are you on if you look at the kind of scene SEA has compared to the european/NA scene, its been very stagnant for years, unlike euro/NA where new teams are popping up (coL, mTw, etc.) and very fragmented with the vast majority of pinoy teams still playing Dota1. teams like zenith, orange, AEON, MUFC, Ice are strong basically because of dota history, not because the current scene is any good. they havent even had a proper dota2 LAN, while europeans have had starladder and dreamhack. maybe it is an exaggeration to say its embarrassing given the fact that zenith and orange/nirvana/kingsurf/... have always had to form allstar teams to compete on the international level, and SEA gets better experience than china than everywhere else, but I find the SEA scene very backwards in terms of meta right now. Show nested quote +On August 29 2012 07:25 Cel.erity wrote:On August 29 2012 06:05 rabidch wrote:On August 29 2012 05:25 Kipsate wrote:On August 29 2012 05:24 saocyn wrote:On August 29 2012 05:05 Kipsate wrote:
Na'vi almost were getting outplayed by tongfu in the lategame there(where they almost got rax and they got 2 t3 towers)
you can't make those mistakes against teams of iG and LGD's, caliber(or even DK's and Zenith arguably)
It looks decent but it will take a lot more then that to win the International
also you say that but they bootcamped for only a short time while the chinese teams(or atleast iG and LGD) have done so for 3 months or so. are you really trying to argue for why euro and american teams have lack luster performances? honestly? rofl. you have a 75% win percentage for a whole fucking year....dominance and that momentum brings an unstoppable confidence, there is absolutely NO excuse to why navi is under performing. first off you have no clue how long chinese teams have been bootcamping. 2nd, if you want to throw that type of bs argument out euro / american teams have had a YEAR preparation of dota 2 far ahead of asians. and we've seen the skill difference that does in a game like sc2. (compare MVP to any kespa player) you guys just don't want to swallow the cold hard truth, and it's that asians are > all dota teams. oh so easily do people forget who the kings were in d1. the skill difference is clearly showing if a team who's 1 year behind in experience can not only catch up but even outdo the so called best. navi was only keeping the throne warm for the kings to come back and take it. I'm not making excuses O.o. I also think that the Asian teams are a lot better.I saw an interview with Chuan where they said that they bootcamped with LGD for 3 months, it was on reddit/youtube somewhere. calm down a second and take a chill pill. chinese dota is in a state of constant bootcamp, the primarily reason why they're the strongest and most professional scene, comparable to korean practicing for sc2. the real embarassing thing is losing to SEA teams like zenith (clg) and orange (na'vi), who obviously have a lot of talent but have a much more plateau'd scene than any of the others Zenith and Orange play together in a LAN setting far more often than CLG or NaVi, and they scrim the top Chinese teams often. I don't know what makes you think the SEA scene is so far removed from Chinese DotA. because zenith and orange haven't competed against each other in a LAN setting more than once or twice in Dota 2. when was the last time there was a SEA Dota2 LAN tournament?
There have been at least two in recent months which I watched the (fairly amateur) coverage of. Not Dreamhack-level competition, but I remember TongFu attending one of them. I don't remember the names of the events, but I remember one was using a webcam pointed at the projector screen for its stream coverage. lol
Anyway, the point is that you mentioned the Chinese teams playing together every day, and that's something the SEA scene has been doing for just as long. They don't take it quite as seriously with expensive team houses, but they still have tons of experience communicating together in a LAN setting, which is what creates a strong team. It's known that European teams do not practice together very much compared to Chinese/SEA teams, so I don't see why it would be embarassing for them to lose.
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Canada2068 Posts
On August 29 2012 08:01 L3g3nd_ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2012 07:42 Azarkon wrote:
Ehome's players just aren't individually skilled enough, except for X!!, to compete with the top tier teams. At the end of the day, vs. Orange, that's what it came down to. X!! is not able to save the team by himself when he's against 2-3 players of the same caliber on Orange. 357 kingj and X are legendary players in the chinese scene, they have huge individual skill.
They're three of the most naturally gifted players in China, but have a reputation of slacking off to play LoL and not training hard.
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It disappoints me that Nirvana.cn is no longer around to compete with iG, DK, and LGD, organization wise, and that Ehome has gone down hill in its finances and organizational ability.
Also sad that WE and Tyloo both don't give enough damn about their Dota teams to up their play.
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anyone have the playoff bracket?
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Very nice. Some interesting things I'm seeing from the hero data:
-Most banned hero was Naga, but she went only 2-5.
-Likewise, Broodmother was banned a ton but lost most of her games, 6-17.
-Broodmother and Clinkz had the lowest teamfight involvement in their victories, which makes sense.
-Puck had the best winrate with 7-0, which is fairly surprising.
-Juggernaut had the worst winrate at 0-4.
-Also abysmal: Lich, Disruptor at 1-5.
-Despite going only 9-10, Antimage had by far the highest GPM in every category.
-Tinker's GPM was much lower than expected, and his average game time was only about the same as most heroes.
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Not to beat a dead horse but, as I've stated, Ehome is awful for 3 mean reasons
1) Scumbags and slackers, 71 (team owner) is a known scumbag, 357 is a scumbag, LanM is a scumbag, Dai/X and KingJ are notable slackers, that is all, I don't know much about PCT but his play is subpar and he seems like a scumbag too, stealing Dai's Storm and all that business~
2) Positioning and organization, they have 4 players who are all used to playing 2-4 position and aren't able to settle down on who plays what because they're all lazy/scumbags not a single player among them has any captaining or commanding experience so their drafts look terrible and everything just falls apart randomly during crucial situations
3) They have no carry player, Ehome is the only Chinese team that routinely gets out-farmed by western teams, its because nobody on the team is a farm sponge that just picks up farm that your 2-4th position heroes leave behind as they gank or do rhythm play. For most Chinese teams u look at the score (it looks pretty even), then u hit the gold graph and they're up 10k gold for no reason, the opposite is true of Ehome.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 29 2012 08:13 Azarkon wrote:
It disappoints me that Nirvana.cn is no longer around to compete with iG, DK, and LGD, organization wise, and that Ehome has gone down hill in its finances and organizational ability.
Also sad that WE and Tyloo both don't give enough damn about their Dota teams to up their play.
Nirvana and Tyloo are examples of teams that fell apart after the first International. Tyloo's players effectively all went to other teams around the time of the first International (Hao->Panda, Awoke+Faith->IG.Z, DD->LGD). Nirvana's team similarly fell apart--Yao went to LGD, and insence, kssssssss and Seaking all retired/went inactive.
Note that the 3/5 from the Tyloo lineup at the first International are on the current Tongfu roster. Tongfu is basically the amalgamation of the old Tyloo lineup along with Panda's lineup of last year. Also note that Nirvana's lineup just before they disbanded consisted predominantly of what became the new EHOME roster (KingJ + 357 + Dai + Crystal + Seaking).
It's not that Tyloo doesn't care about their DotA team--it's that they're old lineup got poached to hell by other teams, and there aren't exactly established veterans on the market, so the current iteration of Tyloo essentially had to be build from scratch (i.e. recruited from pubs). They have potential, but the players will need at least a year or more of competitive experience before they become anything notable.
Likewise, it's not that WE doesn't care about their DotA team (they have 820+2009--the best coaching staff in the industry, after all). However, they've have the issue of roster instability over the last year. Sylar left for LGD in late 2011, The 5th slot went through Crystal, then Xiaoluo in the following months. They put on a strong showing in G-1 League at the start of 2012, but after that Mofi left the team, and the replacements haven't really produced similar results (it doesn't help that JKK plays DotA 1, and JIEJIE plays DotA 2, so they don't have a stable roster that plays both games).
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Nice little touch with the announcer having team names for ban/picks but how did they miss putting it into the actual match?
"EHOME's top tower has fallen" etc etc...
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On August 29 2012 08:30 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2012 08:13 Azarkon wrote:
It disappoints me that Nirvana.cn is no longer around to compete with iG, DK, and LGD, organization wise, and that Ehome has gone down hill in its finances and organizational ability.
Also sad that WE and Tyloo both don't give enough damn about their Dota teams to up their play. Nirvana and Tyloo are examples of teams that fell apart after the first International. Tyloo's players effectively all went to other teams around the time of the first International (Hao->Panda, Awoke+Faith->IG.Z, DD->LGD). Nirvana's team similarly fell apart--Yao went to LGD, and insence, kssssssss and Seaking all retired/went inactive. Note that the 3/5 from the Tyloo lineup at the first International are on the current Tongfu roster. Tongfu is basically the amalgamation of the old Tyloo lineup along with Panda's lineup of last year. Also note that Nirvana's lineup just before they disbanded consisted predominantly of what became the new EHOME roster (KingJ + 357 + Dai + Crystal + Seaking). It's not that Tyloo doesn't care about their DotA team--it's that they're old lineup got poached to hell by other teams, and there aren't exactly established veterans on the market, so the current iteration of Tyloo essentially had to be build from scratch (e.g. recruited from pubs). They have potential, but the players will need at least a year or more of competitive experience before they become anything notable. Likewise, it's not that WE doesn't care about their DotA team (they have 820+2009--the best coaching staff in the industry, after all). However, they've have the issue of roster instability over the last year. Sylar left for LGD in late 2011, The 5th slot went through Crystal, then Xiaoluo in the following months. They put on a strong showing in G-1 League at the start of 2012, but after that Mofi left the team, and the replacements haven't really produced similar results (it doesn't help that JKK plays DotA 1, and JIEJIE plays DotA 2, so they don't have a stable roster that plays both games).
I understand this, but what I'm confused about is why there haven't been a higher amount of newer talents to replace the old in Chinese Dota.
In NA Dota, we have coL and pB, both very hot teams who at the minimum is able to equal / surpass EG, the previously best NA team. In EU they have less newcomers, but there was still whA who won over mTw in the WCG challenge.
In Chinese Dota, iG, DK, and LGD have a monopoly on the top Chinese leagues and while newer teams such as DT.Love and FL have risen, they are not able to challenge these three giants.
The way you're talking, Tyloo and WE are failing because they have pub players who are not yet ready for the competitive scene. Yet, how hard is it to find new talent given how popular Dota is in China?
Take the analogy to SC 2 in Korea - they're a smaller country, yet have a huge amount of SC 2 teams and players. In LoL, they were able to scramble together 7-8 mid/high tier teams within the span of a few months, and while none of these teams have shown that they are the best in the world yet, the speed at which they popped up is scarily rapid.
Why isn't that doable in Chinese Dota? Surely, among the millions who play Dota in China, there are lots of players equally talented with those in the current scene. Are the incentives not solid enough for going pro?
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is there a list of best games of the group stage?
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On August 29 2012 08:42 babishh wrote:
is there a list of best games of the group stage?
all of them.
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EPT
