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On August 29 2012 08:30 Kupon3ss wrote:
Not to beat a dead horse but, as I've stated, Ehome is awful for 3 mean reasons
1) Scumbags and slackers, 71 (team owner) is a known scumbag, 357 is a scumbag, LanM is a scumbag, Dai/X and KingJ are notable slackers, that is all, I don't know much about PCT but his play is subpar and he seems like a scumbag too, stealing Dai's Storm and all that business~
X and KingJ are not the problem in this team, though. KingJ isn't that outstanding these days but X still is. He just doesn't get the heroes he needs / isn't able to carry the rest of the team.
Also, scumbags =/= bad Dota players.  Lots of pros in the scene are scumbags, but they're still able to win. See, for example, ArtStyle in 2011, Vigoss in the days of VP.
2) Positioning and organization, they have 4 players who are all used to playing 2-4 position and aren't able to settle down on who plays what because they're all lazy/scumbags not a single player among them has any captaining or commanding experience so their drafts look terrible and everything just falls apart randomly during crucial situations
3) They have no carry player, Ehome is the only Chinese team that routinely gets out-farmed by western teams, its because nobody on the team is a farm sponge that just picks up farm that your 2-4th position heroes leave behind as they gank or do rhythm play. For most Chinese teams u look at the score (it looks pretty even), then u hit the gold graph and they're up 10k gold for no reason, the opposite is true of Ehome.
These are huge problems with Ehome, but it goes back to what I said about talent - they need to find better talent than PCT, and I don't know why they're not able to. I heard Ehome offered ZSMJ a contract but he refused. That's fine, but why does the world revolve around ZSMJ / Burning / Sylar / Zhou? Sylar has been traded over and over because he is highly rated, but I find it difficult to believe that they're not able to find carries on that level. It doesn't have to be another Sylar. They just need a carry on the level of, say, Xboct / Pajkatt to be able to perform well.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 29 2012 08:39 Azarkon wrote:
I understand this, but what I'm confused about is why there haven't been a higher amount of newer talents to replace the old in Chinese Dota.
In NA Dota, we have coL and pB, both very hot teams who at the minimum is able to equal / surpass EG, the previously best NA team. In EU they have less newcomers, but there was still whA who won over mTw in the WCG challenge.
In Chinese Dota, iG, DK, and LGD have a monopoly on the top Chinese leagues and while newer teams such as DT.Love and FL have risen, they are not able to challenge these three giants.
The way you're talking, Tyloo and WE are failing because they have pub players who are not yet ready for the competitive scene. Yet, how hard is it to find new talent given how popular Dota is in China?
Take the analogy to SC 2 in Korea - they're a smaller country, yet have a huge amount of SC 2 teams and players. In LoL, they were able to scramble together 7-8 mid/high tier teams within the span of a few months, and while none of these teams have shown that they are the best in the world yet, the speed at which they popped up is scarily rapid.
Why isn't that doable in Chinese Dota? Surely, among the millions who play Dota in China, there are lots of players equally talented with those in the current scene. Are the incentives not solid enough for going pro?
Because the level of play needed to "go pro" is so much higher. A team of Mouz' caliber wins plenty of things in the foreign scene and looks fantastic. In China? No way would a team with such a similarly strong showing make any mark in the tournament scene.
The issue has nothing to do with individual skill. In the West, you can get a team of individually skilled players, and they can play together for a few weeks or months, and be "competitive". That won't happen in China. Even in pubs, the level of individual skill is high across the board. The difference is in coordination and playing as a team, and that takes much longer to perfect. Getting 5 players from pubs doesn't mean they'll automatically be good at that. To get their coordination to the level of iG or LGD? How could that NOT take more than a year?
This is where WE and Tyloo are failing. Tyloo's roster hasn't been together long enough, and WE doesn't have a stable roster. Your teamplay can only be so good when you're constantly swapping your 5th player.
Realistically I don't even think the "new talent" in the Western scene like PB or coL is necessarily stronger than the new talent in China (DT got to the semifinals of ACE and put up a very strong showing in game 2 vs. iG, even though they didn't have the means to challenge them--if they put their time into DotA 2, they could perform as well as or better than Tongfu's current form). It's just that because the level of play required to win tournaments in the West is lower (partly because there are less major tournaments in China, so in China all the major teams compete in them), so the newer teams get more opportunities to look good.
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Na and FL are both very good semi-pro teams that's popped up in the last few months, its just that there's a lack of system to habilitate second tier teams and foster their growth, so more often than not they'll disband due to lack of results, with their poorer players retiring and the better ones getting picked up by a major team
There's a "dream" tournament that basically seeks to find new talent has picked up a few useful things, (like the yaphet's ladder-leveling squad) that are able to at least compete with the lower level pro teams.
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On August 29 2012 08:59 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2012 08:39 Azarkon wrote:
I understand this, but what I'm confused about is why there haven't been a higher amount of newer talents to replace the old in Chinese Dota.
In NA Dota, we have coL and pB, both very hot teams who at the minimum is able to equal / surpass EG, the previously best NA team. In EU they have less newcomers, but there was still whA who won over mTw in the WCG challenge.
In Chinese Dota, iG, DK, and LGD have a monopoly on the top Chinese leagues and while newer teams such as DT.Love and FL have risen, they are not able to challenge these three giants.
The way you're talking, Tyloo and WE are failing because they have pub players who are not yet ready for the competitive scene. Yet, how hard is it to find new talent given how popular Dota is in China?
Take the analogy to SC 2 in Korea - they're a smaller country, yet have a huge amount of SC 2 teams and players. In LoL, they were able to scramble together 7-8 mid/high tier teams within the span of a few months, and while none of these teams have shown that they are the best in the world yet, the speed at which they popped up is scarily rapid.
Why isn't that doable in Chinese Dota? Surely, among the millions who play Dota in China, there are lots of players equally talented with those in the current scene. Are the incentives not solid enough for going pro? Because the level of play needed to "go pro" is so much higher. A team of Mouz' caliber wins plenty of things in the foreign scene and looks fantastic. In China? No way would a team with such a similarly strong showing make any mark in the tournament scene. Realistically I don't even think the "new talent" in the Western scene like PB or coL is necessarily stronger than the new talent in China (DT got to the semifinals of ACE and put up a very strong showing in game 2 vs. iG, even though they didn't have the means to challenge them). It's just that because the level of play required to win tournaments in the West is lower (partly because there are less major tournaments and so in China all the major teams compete in them), so the newer teams get more opportunities to look good.
Well, that depends on how high you rate coL. They sorta stomped TF and Orange, so I think it's a bit unfair to say that they've got nothing on DT.Love / FL. I think a better idea is just that Chinese Dota players have stopped trying to go pro because they lack the infrastructure to prove themselves. ACE was an invitational IIRC, and while G-League is open it doesn't run enough. Then there's WCG, but IDK whether that's an invitational. Other than those three tournaments there aren't a lot of other big Dota tournaments in China.
I thought that the Chinese were not going to do that well in TI 2 beforehand because of how poor the Dota 2 infrastructure is in China. That obviously didn't stop iG, DK, and LGD from playing at a very high level - props to them for that - but it is still a problem because I'm not seeing newer talent from China in Dota 2.
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On August 29 2012 09:07 Kupon3ss wrote:
Na and FL are both very good semi-pro teams that's popped up in the last few months, its just that there's a lack of system to habilitate second tier teams and foster their growth, so more often than not they'll disband due to lack of results, with their poorer players retiring and the better ones getting picked up by a major team
There's a "dream" tournament that basically seeks to find new talent has picked up a few useful things, (like the yaphet's ladder-leveling squad) that are able to at least compete with the lower level pro teams.
YaphetS's ladder leveling squad? Do explain.
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basically yaphets ran a business power-leveling on chinese dota ladder that got called out in some giant drama bomb, it turns out that they're really good at online tournaments too~
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On August 29 2012 08:39 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2012 08:30 TheYango wrote:On August 29 2012 08:13 Azarkon wrote:
It disappoints me that Nirvana.cn is no longer around to compete with iG, DK, and LGD, organization wise, and that Ehome has gone down hill in its finances and organizational ability.
Also sad that WE and Tyloo both don't give enough damn about their Dota teams to up their play. Nirvana and Tyloo are examples of teams that fell apart after the first International. Tyloo's players effectively all went to other teams around the time of the first International (Hao->Panda, Awoke+Faith->IG.Z, DD->LGD). Nirvana's team similarly fell apart--Yao went to LGD, and insence, kssssssss and Seaking all retired/went inactive. Note that the 3/5 from the Tyloo lineup at the first International are on the current Tongfu roster. Tongfu is basically the amalgamation of the old Tyloo lineup along with Panda's lineup of last year. Also note that Nirvana's lineup just before they disbanded consisted predominantly of what became the new EHOME roster (KingJ + 357 + Dai + Crystal + Seaking). It's not that Tyloo doesn't care about their DotA team--it's that they're old lineup got poached to hell by other teams, and there aren't exactly established veterans on the market, so the current iteration of Tyloo essentially had to be build from scratch (e.g. recruited from pubs). They have potential, but the players will need at least a year or more of competitive experience before they become anything notable. Likewise, it's not that WE doesn't care about their DotA team (they have 820+2009--the best coaching staff in the industry, after all). However, they've have the issue of roster instability over the last year. Sylar left for LGD in late 2011, The 5th slot went through Crystal, then Xiaoluo in the following months. They put on a strong showing in G-1 League at the start of 2012, but after that Mofi left the team, and the replacements haven't really produced similar results (it doesn't help that JKK plays DotA 1, and JIEJIE plays DotA 2, so they don't have a stable roster that plays both games). I understand this, but what I'm confused about is why there haven't been a higher amount of newer talents to replace the old in Chinese Dota. In NA Dota, we have coL and pB, both very hot teams who at the minimum is able to equal / surpass EG, the previously best NA team. In EU they have less newcomers, but there was still whA who won over mTw in the WCG challenge. In Chinese Dota, iG, DK, and LGD have a monopoly on the top Chinese leagues and while newer teams such as DT.Love and FL have risen, they are not able to challenge these three giants. The way you're talking, Tyloo and WE are failing because they have pub players who are not yet ready for the competitive scene. Yet, how hard is it to find new talent given how popular Dota is in China? Take the analogy to SC 2 in Korea - they're a smaller country, yet have a huge amount of SC 2 teams and players. In LoL, they were able to scramble together 7-8 mid/high tier teams within the span of a few months, and while none of these teams have shown that they are the best in the world yet, the speed at which they popped up is scarily rapid. Why isn't that doable in Chinese Dota? Surely, among the millions who play Dota in China, there are lots of players equally talented with those in the current scene. Are the incentives not solid enough for going pro?
because the top teams are bought out by millionaires? these guys were literally put together through the fact the owner spent millions. they have their own house, facility, a high quality of life that pretty much if they were to fail, i'm sure the owner would disband them and replace them. it's hard to top another team that has a perfect training regime and equipment. the bar is alot higher than that of any other dota scene. most people who would play on the level of mouz looks good in euro, but they would be considered laughable pubs in china.
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Where can I find a list of all the replays in TI2 I'm sorry if this was adressed someplace else but I'd like to sell all the VOds of DK and Zentih (my 2 favorite teams =D)
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On August 29 2012 09:31 saocyn wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2012 08:39 Azarkon wrote:On August 29 2012 08:30 TheYango wrote:On August 29 2012 08:13 Azarkon wrote:
It disappoints me that Nirvana.cn is no longer around to compete with iG, DK, and LGD, organization wise, and that Ehome has gone down hill in its finances and organizational ability.
Also sad that WE and Tyloo both don't give enough damn about their Dota teams to up their play. Nirvana and Tyloo are examples of teams that fell apart after the first International. Tyloo's players effectively all went to other teams around the time of the first International (Hao->Panda, Awoke+Faith->IG.Z, DD->LGD). Nirvana's team similarly fell apart--Yao went to LGD, and insence, kssssssss and Seaking all retired/went inactive. Note that the 3/5 from the Tyloo lineup at the first International are on the current Tongfu roster. Tongfu is basically the amalgamation of the old Tyloo lineup along with Panda's lineup of last year. Also note that Nirvana's lineup just before they disbanded consisted predominantly of what became the new EHOME roster (KingJ + 357 + Dai + Crystal + Seaking). It's not that Tyloo doesn't care about their DotA team--it's that they're old lineup got poached to hell by other teams, and there aren't exactly established veterans on the market, so the current iteration of Tyloo essentially had to be build from scratch (e.g. recruited from pubs). They have potential, but the players will need at least a year or more of competitive experience before they become anything notable. Likewise, it's not that WE doesn't care about their DotA team (they have 820+2009--the best coaching staff in the industry, after all). However, they've have the issue of roster instability over the last year. Sylar left for LGD in late 2011, The 5th slot went through Crystal, then Xiaoluo in the following months. They put on a strong showing in G-1 League at the start of 2012, but after that Mofi left the team, and the replacements haven't really produced similar results (it doesn't help that JKK plays DotA 1, and JIEJIE plays DotA 2, so they don't have a stable roster that plays both games). I understand this, but what I'm confused about is why there haven't been a higher amount of newer talents to replace the old in Chinese Dota. In NA Dota, we have coL and pB, both very hot teams who at the minimum is able to equal / surpass EG, the previously best NA team. In EU they have less newcomers, but there was still whA who won over mTw in the WCG challenge. In Chinese Dota, iG, DK, and LGD have a monopoly on the top Chinese leagues and while newer teams such as DT.Love and FL have risen, they are not able to challenge these three giants. The way you're talking, Tyloo and WE are failing because they have pub players who are not yet ready for the competitive scene. Yet, how hard is it to find new talent given how popular Dota is in China? Take the analogy to SC 2 in Korea - they're a smaller country, yet have a huge amount of SC 2 teams and players. In LoL, they were able to scramble together 7-8 mid/high tier teams within the span of a few months, and while none of these teams have shown that they are the best in the world yet, the speed at which they popped up is scarily rapid. Why isn't that doable in Chinese Dota? Surely, among the millions who play Dota in China, there are lots of players equally talented with those in the current scene. Are the incentives not solid enough for going pro? because the top teams are bought out by millionaires? these guys were literally put together through the fact the owner spent millions. they have their own house, facility, a high quality of life that pretty much if they were to fail, i'm sure the owner would disband them and replace them. it's hard to top another team that has a perfect training regime and equipment. the bar is alot higher than that of any other dota scene. most people who would play on the level of mouz looks good in euro, but they would be considered laughable pubs in china.
iG is a good example of this. Poor ZSMJ, his 4 teammates got poached and he could never regain his form after.
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On August 29 2012 06:36 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2012 06:28 Azarkon wrote:
People are focusing on Na'Vi but coL is by far the greatest danger in this tournament for the top teams.
The way they DEMOLISHED Orange - a feat no other team was capable of - speaks for itself.
You all talk about how close Orange vs. iG was, and then forget that coL destroyed Orange 2-0, and the games were not close.
Don't be upset when coL upsets on Friday.
This is my pick for the biggest breakout of TI 2. coL is a legit team for sure. I'm a little disappointed that Quantic didn't make it into the groups, I feel like they'd ultimately be the stronger Western team.
Quantic has been around long enough; coL has excellent teamwork and positional awareness, something alot of the other EU/NA teams do not have. Na'vi for instance got completely caught with their pants on the ground against Tongfu, and should have been wiped at Roshan (or at least severely lost the fight) in G2, but Tongfu just being completely dumb threw the fight by just sitting on top of each other despite perfect initiation. coL so far hasn't made any really big mistakes this tournament, just really small ones that add up over time that cause them to lose games. Their victories over Orange were incredibly impressive.
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I really root for CLG and then Zenith (with Loda). But I think a Chinese team is gonna take it. NaVi is not showing their best.. I think coL could upset too they have been strong recently. If you looked at NaVis video blogs from TI12 one of the Chinese teams had boot camped 3 months beforehand. I bet they are prepared.
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On August 29 2012 09:35 Dacendoran wrote:
Where can I find a list of all the replays in TI2 I'm sorry if this was adressed someplace else but I'd like to sell all the VOds of DK and Zentih (my 2 favorite teams =D)
I wouldn't be surprised if you could just find them ingame somewhere.
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in the client if you go to the prelims tab of the international it lists all the games and just click "view" to bring up the game page and watch replay is right there
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its times like this that we think of talents that could be here
WHERE THE FUCK IS FUCK YEAH SEAKING~
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I think Darer vs IG game 2 was really the game that blew me away with how good the Chinese are. I was expecting complete domination from the Chinese but holy crap that game, when they sat in their base for a whole 2 minutes doing nothing until they found darer was such an amazing play, just a perfect game of dota overall from IG. No nonchinese team would have done anything remotely similar, the Chinese just play with so much confidence and make so few mistakes I am going to be shocked if the top 4 isn't all Chinese.
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On August 29 2012 10:28 Reuental wrote:
I think Darer vs IG game 2 was really the game that blew me away with how good the Chinese are. I was expecting complete domination from the Chinese but holy crap that game, when they sat in their base for a whole 2 minutes doing nothing until they found darer was such an amazing play, just a perfect game of dota overall from IG. No nonchinese team would have done anything remotely similar, the Chinese just play with so much confidence and make so few mistakes I am going to be shocked if the top 4 isn't all Chinese.
Complexity do similar things. sit in base for prolonged periods of time for safety reasons. Col is getting known for being near impossible to break into their base without a ridiculously large advantage.
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On August 29 2012 08:39 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2012 08:30 TheYango wrote:On August 29 2012 08:13 Azarkon wrote:
It disappoints me that Nirvana.cn is no longer around to compete with iG, DK, and LGD, organization wise, and that Ehome has gone down hill in its finances and organizational ability.
Also sad that WE and Tyloo both don't give enough damn about their Dota teams to up their play. Nirvana and Tyloo are examples of teams that fell apart after the first International. Tyloo's players effectively all went to other teams around the time of the first International (Hao->Panda, Awoke+Faith->IG.Z, DD->LGD). Nirvana's team similarly fell apart--Yao went to LGD, and insence, kssssssss and Seaking all retired/went inactive. Note that the 3/5 from the Tyloo lineup at the first International are on the current Tongfu roster. Tongfu is basically the amalgamation of the old Tyloo lineup along with Panda's lineup of last year. Also note that Nirvana's lineup just before they disbanded consisted predominantly of what became the new EHOME roster (KingJ + 357 + Dai + Crystal + Seaking). It's not that Tyloo doesn't care about their DotA team--it's that they're old lineup got poached to hell by other teams, and there aren't exactly established veterans on the market, so the current iteration of Tyloo essentially had to be build from scratch (e.g. recruited from pubs). They have potential, but the players will need at least a year or more of competitive experience before they become anything notable. Likewise, it's not that WE doesn't care about their DotA team (they have 820+2009--the best coaching staff in the industry, after all). However, they've have the issue of roster instability over the last year. Sylar left for LGD in late 2011, The 5th slot went through Crystal, then Xiaoluo in the following months. They put on a strong showing in G-1 League at the start of 2012, but after that Mofi left the team, and the replacements haven't really produced similar results (it doesn't help that JKK plays DotA 1, and JIEJIE plays DotA 2, so they don't have a stable roster that plays both games). I understand this, but what I'm confused about is why there haven't been a higher amount of newer talents to replace the old in Chinese Dota. In NA Dota, we have coL and pB, both very hot teams who at the minimum is able to equal / surpass EG, the previously best NA team. In EU they have less newcomers, but there was still whA who won over mTw in the WCG challenge. In Chinese Dota, iG, DK, and LGD have a monopoly on the top Chinese leagues and while newer teams such as DT.Love and FL have risen, they are not able to challenge these three giants. The way you're talking, Tyloo and WE are failing because they have pub players who are not yet ready for the competitive scene. Yet, how hard is it to find new talent given how popular Dota is in China? Take the analogy to SC 2 in Korea - they're a smaller country, yet have a huge amount of SC 2 teams and players. In LoL, they were able to scramble together 7-8 mid/high tier teams within the span of a few months, and while none of these teams have shown that they are the best in the world yet, the speed at which they popped up is scarily rapid. Why isn't that doable in Chinese Dota? Surely, among the millions who play Dota in China, there are lots of players equally talented with those in the current scene. Are the incentives not solid enough for going pro?
ermm... that's what he's saying...
Tyloo and WE were examples of teams that were made up of all these fresh new players with massive potential... then their rosters were promptly ransacked by the teams with big money.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 29 2012 10:25 Kupon3ss wrote:
its times like this that we think of talents that could be here
WHERE THE FUCK IS FUCK YEAH SEAKING~
That reminds me, what actually happened to 830 anyway after Panda's disbandment?
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On August 29 2012 10:32 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2012 10:28 Reuental wrote:
I think Darer vs IG game 2 was really the game that blew me away with how good the Chinese are. I was expecting complete domination from the Chinese but holy crap that game, when they sat in their base for a whole 2 minutes doing nothing until they found darer was such an amazing play, just a perfect game of dota overall from IG. No nonchinese team would have done anything remotely similar, the Chinese just play with so much confidence and make so few mistakes I am going to be shocked if the top 4 isn't all Chinese. Complexity do similar things. sit in base for prolonged periods of time for safety reasons. Col is getting known for being near impossible to break into their base without a ridiculously large advantage.
That's because Complexity studies the Chinese - and the Asians in general - and they scrim a lot with them. POTM Bottom, same thing. The rise of these two teams has a lot to do with them being able to study and scrim with Chinese teams, because China <-> US is playable while China <-> EU is not.
EU Dota, minus Na'Vi and to an extent mTw, has gotten too full of itself and too ignorant about the Chinese scene. Puppey said the only preparation he did vs. the Chinese was watching their official online games - in which, obviously, the Chinese got stomped - so he said he didn't understand their picks. In the Na'Vi TI 2 interview on Day 2, LoH said that Na'Vi has had to study and learn on the spot after iG stomped them, and now thinks the Chinese do what they do because they think 2-3 steps ahead of their opponents. I have better faith in Na'Vi now because of it - they do adapt very fast.
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Meh, I wouldn't be surprised if teams like DT, FL, and NA soon put themselves on even footing with DK and the others within a year and half. To say that the other Chinese teams have given up going pro doesn't make much sense based on the number of Dota1 tournaments that are still ongoing in China, since there are others besides the most mainstream ones like Starswar, G league and ACE league in which these clubs are participating in. I would say that it's only a matter of time.
Besides, if there weren't enough renewal of talent, you wouldn't have LGD, Tongfu, and EHOME's roster refreshed with quite a few faces over the years. It's just that it would require some luck for a team of 5 unknowns, however talented, to stick together through thick and thin to reach a pro level. DT and FL might just accomplish that.
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EPT
