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On September 05 2012 08:59 Shikyo wrote:
I was really disappointed in the way puppey played NA, actually. He's such an incredible roamer and ganker but IIRC there was next to no action. Of course I could be remembering wrong / missing it on the minimap but if I don't remember anything like that happening I doubt that it happened... He's like Sand King, just better. I don't see how it's possible to fail to gank with NA hmhm..
Except he needs levels to gank and you just don't get that as fifth position.
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On September 05 2012 10:17 nttea wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 08:59 Shikyo wrote:
I was really disappointed in the way puppey played NA, actually. He's such an incredible roamer and ganker but IIRC there was next to no action. Of course I could be remembering wrong / missing it on the minimap but if I don't remember anything like that happening I doubt that it happened... He's like Sand King, just better. I don't see how it's possible to fail to gank with NA hmhm.. i personally expected them to lane him against TA spamming mana burn
NA is usually played in the 5th position.
Dendi Rubick was definitely playing mid.
They were running a tri-lane with NA,Jugger and SS.
They were definitely wanted to GO for kills with this setup.
Problem is iG was slowly farming while being super cautious.
They couldn't get the kills and NA was underleveled especially when he is playing the 5th position.
I knew Navi was gonna lose because NA couldn't gank at all and was way way underleveled.
Past the mid game, he was just food for Ferrari TA and Zhou Naga.
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Did navi have any chance after that ravage fail in game 4? Maybe push more aggressively instead of going for Roshan. Or would that fail badly? Also, was the morphling ban worth it? I understand they banned him because the chinese can play morphling better than navi can but would it really be that bad to face a chinese morphling? IG vs LGD was 0-3 for morphling. So while navi can't play morphling, I see no reason why they can't play against morphling. Perhaps they could have used the ban for another broken hero.
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On September 05 2012 18:22 Ultrafilter wrote:
Did navi have any chance after that ravage fail in game 4? Maybe push more aggressively instead of going for Roshan. Or would that fail badly? Also, was the morphling ban worth it? I understand they banned him because the chinese can play morphling better than navi can but would it really be that bad to face a chinese morphling? IG vs LGD was 0-3 for morphling. So while navi can't play morphling, I see no reason why they can't play against morphling. Perhaps they could have used the ban for another broken hero.
Na'vi cannot beat iG or LGD playing standard. They were basically playing with fire by baiting all those Naga/Seer picks, and eventually iG figured out the counter to their counter. Once that occurred, basically Na'vi was pretty helpless since iG's flexibility allowed them to play alot more line-ups than Na'vi could have. Then again, I'd expect a 6 million dollar team assembled of Asia's finest to be able to do that. The fact that Na'vi was basically winning almost purely off their drafts and execution was a pretty impressive feat in itself.
Na'vi tried to play standard vs iG one game and basically threw that out of the window when they realized that they couldn't give up Morphling to iG/LGD. The strength of those teams drastically multiplies because Morphling is a hero that is so flexible and gives iG/LGD so many options that it's not worth it to give that up to them; Naga is almost a complete one trick pony, so if you can counter that trick (which isn't easy to do) you are in pretty good shape.
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On September 05 2012 18:59 superstartran wrote:
Naga is almost a complete one trick pony, so if you can counter that trick (which isn't easy to do) you are in pretty good shape; .
I know i loved partying up omni/jugg and getting double bkb. sometimes 40 seconds of magic immunity is just too fun to pass up vs a nuking squad with naga.
but overall na'vi could beta iG standard games, but it'd be stressful, hard and not something na'vi particularly like doing. so they tried other things, most of which failed without dendi being free to make plays.
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where can i find a compilation of the hilarious translations during the international, writing a thread bashing anderson for selling free beta keys and might as well bash him for terrible english skills as well
On September 05 2012 20:20 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 18:59 superstartran wrote:
Naga is almost a complete one trick pony, so if you can counter that trick (which isn't easy to do) you are in pretty good shape; . I know i loved partying up omni/jugg and getting double bkb. sometimes 40 seconds of magic immunity is just too fun to pass up vs a nuking squad with naga. but overall na'vi could beta iG standard games, but it'd be stressful, hard and not something na'vi particularly like doing. so they tried other things, most of which failed without dendi being free to make plays.
Na'Vi had no chance in a "standard" game, since the standard metagame was defined, created, and masted by the Chinese, just look at the first 3 times they played during the event
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On September 06 2012 01:26 Kupon3ss wrote:where can i find a compilation of the hilarious translations during the international, writing a thread bashing anderson for selling free beta keys and might as well bash him for terrible english skills as well Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 20:20 PrinceXizor wrote:On September 05 2012 18:59 superstartran wrote:
Naga is almost a complete one trick pony, so if you can counter that trick (which isn't easy to do) you are in pretty good shape; . I know i loved partying up omni/jugg and getting double bkb. sometimes 40 seconds of magic immunity is just too fun to pass up vs a nuking squad with naga. but overall na'vi could beta iG standard games, but it'd be stressful, hard and not something na'vi particularly like doing. so they tried other things, most of which failed without dendi being free to make plays. Na'Vi had no chance in a "standard" game, since the standard metagame was defined, created, and masted by the Chinese, just look at the first 3 times they played during the event
Yea the main worry was Na'vi using up their aces to get into the Grand FInal,
seems like they played all their hands by the second game of the grand final.
IG was always going to be significantly more comfortable.
Still Kudos though, considering how much better the Chinese teams are Na'vi had still had enough of a clutch gene to make it that far.
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Oh, stupid me. Wrong thread ! Someone delete this post please.
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On September 06 2012 01:38 Rebs wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 01:26 Kupon3ss wrote:where can i find a compilation of the hilarious translations during the international, writing a thread bashing anderson for selling free beta keys and might as well bash him for terrible english skills as well On September 05 2012 20:20 PrinceXizor wrote:On September 05 2012 18:59 superstartran wrote:
Naga is almost a complete one trick pony, so if you can counter that trick (which isn't easy to do) you are in pretty good shape; . I know i loved partying up omni/jugg and getting double bkb. sometimes 40 seconds of magic immunity is just too fun to pass up vs a nuking squad with naga. but overall na'vi could beta iG standard games, but it'd be stressful, hard and not something na'vi particularly like doing. so they tried other things, most of which failed without dendi being free to make plays. Na'Vi had no chance in a "standard" game, since the standard metagame was defined, created, and masted by the Chinese, just look at the first 3 times they played during the event Yea the main worry was Na'vi using up their aces to get into the Grand FInal, seems like they played all their hands by the second game of the grand final. IG was always going to be significantly more comfortable. Still Kudos though, considering how much better the Chinese teams are Na'vi had still had enough of a clutch gene to make it that far.
exactly, ppy is easily the best captain of TI2. without him navi would probably have never gotten that far.
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On September 05 2012 18:22 Ultrafilter wrote:
Did navi have any chance after that ravage fail in game 4? Maybe push more aggressively instead of going for Roshan. Or would that fail badly? Also, was the morphling ban worth it? I understand they banned him because the chinese can play morphling better than navi can but would it really be that bad to face a chinese morphling? IG vs LGD was 0-3 for morphling. So while navi can't play morphling, I see no reason why they can't play against morphling. Perhaps they could have used the ban for another broken hero.
I too think Na'Vi overrated Morphling. They lost to it on Day 1 and Day 2 and then after that they just banned it every game. I think Na'Vi underrated their own ability, and took their Day 1-2 experiences badly though they weren't performing 100% at the time. After their losses they just decided that Morphling was overpowered. But looking at the Chinese games, AM > Morphling.
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On September 06 2012 09:56 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 18:22 Ultrafilter wrote:
Did navi have any chance after that ravage fail in game 4? Maybe push more aggressively instead of going for Roshan. Or would that fail badly? Also, was the morphling ban worth it? I understand they banned him because the chinese can play morphling better than navi can but would it really be that bad to face a chinese morphling? IG vs LGD was 0-3 for morphling. So while navi can't play morphling, I see no reason why they can't play against morphling. Perhaps they could have used the ban for another broken hero. I too think Na'Vi overrated Morphling. They lost to it on Day 1 and Day 2 and then after that they just banned it every game. I think Na'Vi underrated their own ability, and took their Day 1-2 experiences badly though they weren't performing 100% at the time. After their losses they just decided that Morphling was overpowered. But looking at the Chinese games, AM > Morphling.
I think it's a bit more complicated than that in regards to Morphling. Compared to AM, he's a lot more flexible in lineups and laning, and has a much stronger early and midgame. Even late game, he can hang pretty well with AM, but of course loses in ultra late because of farm disparity (although this can be made up if his team gets enough of an advantage earlier).
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On September 06 2012 09:56 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 18:22 Ultrafilter wrote:
Did navi have any chance after that ravage fail in game 4? Maybe push more aggressively instead of going for Roshan. Or would that fail badly? Also, was the morphling ban worth it? I understand they banned him because the chinese can play morphling better than navi can but would it really be that bad to face a chinese morphling? IG vs LGD was 0-3 for morphling. So while navi can't play morphling, I see no reason why they can't play against morphling. Perhaps they could have used the ban for another broken hero. I too think Na'Vi overrated Morphling. They lost to it on Day 1 and Day 2 and then after that they just banned it every game. I think Na'Vi underrated their own ability, and took their Day 1-2 experiences badly though they weren't performing 100% at the time. After their losses they just decided that Morphling was overpowered. But looking at the Chinese games, AM > Morphling.
Lone Druid beats Morphling 100% in LGD vs. IG -Bruno
Na'vi should have listened to that.
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FREEAGLELAND26782 Posts
Wow this thing has a lot of pages.
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On September 06 2012 09:56 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 18:22 Ultrafilter wrote:
Did navi have any chance after that ravage fail in game 4? Maybe push more aggressively instead of going for Roshan. Or would that fail badly? Also, was the morphling ban worth it? I understand they banned him because the chinese can play morphling better than navi can but would it really be that bad to face a chinese morphling? IG vs LGD was 0-3 for morphling. So while navi can't play morphling, I see no reason why they can't play against morphling. Perhaps they could have used the ban for another broken hero. I too think Na'Vi overrated Morphling. They lost to it on Day 1 and Day 2 and then after that they just banned it every game. I think Na'Vi underrated their own ability, and took their Day 1-2 experiences badly though they weren't performing 100% at the time. After their losses they just decided that Morphling was overpowered. But looking at the Chinese games, AM > Morphling.
Na'vi cannot beat iG or LGD playing standard. That is not in their favor; they don't have the skill level to do it (only 2 or 3 of their players could possibly match up, and even then Ferrari has demonstrated that he can beat Dendi almost virtually every time). Playing standard means they play right into iG or LGD's hands; the "standard" metagame as previously mentioned was developed by the Chinese, so trying to beat the Chinese at their own style isn't going to work out very well.
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I know the US has players who can match the chinese. Wheres the money?
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On September 06 2012 12:54 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 09:56 Azarkon wrote:On September 05 2012 18:22 Ultrafilter wrote:
Did navi have any chance after that ravage fail in game 4? Maybe push more aggressively instead of going for Roshan. Or would that fail badly? Also, was the morphling ban worth it? I understand they banned him because the chinese can play morphling better than navi can but would it really be that bad to face a chinese morphling? IG vs LGD was 0-3 for morphling. So while navi can't play morphling, I see no reason why they can't play against morphling. Perhaps they could have used the ban for another broken hero. I too think Na'Vi overrated Morphling. They lost to it on Day 1 and Day 2 and then after that they just banned it every game. I think Na'Vi underrated their own ability, and took their Day 1-2 experiences badly though they weren't performing 100% at the time. After their losses they just decided that Morphling was overpowered. But looking at the Chinese games, AM > Morphling. Na'vi cannot beat iG or LGD playing standard. That is not in their favor; they don't have the skill level to do it (only 2 or 3 of their players could possibly match up, and even then Ferrari has demonstrated that he can beat Dendi almost virtually every time). Playing standard means they play right into iG or LGD's hands; the "standard" metagame as previously mentioned was developed by the Chinese, so trying to beat the Chinese at their own style isn't going to work out very well.
+1, and you have to keep in mind that even though puppey had some counter strats prepared, the execution of their strats had to work too. it worked 2 times in their bo3 against ig and lgd, but in their last game in the GF it just didnt work. Now I dont think puppey would have drafted the nyx if they didnt train it before, but fact is, they couldnt execute it properly and lost the game. there are just so many times you can get away with beating the chinese with a pocket strat.
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On September 06 2012 12:54 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 09:56 Azarkon wrote:On September 05 2012 18:22 Ultrafilter wrote:
Did navi have any chance after that ravage fail in game 4? Maybe push more aggressively instead of going for Roshan. Or would that fail badly? Also, was the morphling ban worth it? I understand they banned him because the chinese can play morphling better than navi can but would it really be that bad to face a chinese morphling? IG vs LGD was 0-3 for morphling. So while navi can't play morphling, I see no reason why they can't play against morphling. Perhaps they could have used the ban for another broken hero. I too think Na'Vi overrated Morphling. They lost to it on Day 1 and Day 2 and then after that they just banned it every game. I think Na'Vi underrated their own ability, and took their Day 1-2 experiences badly though they weren't performing 100% at the time. After their losses they just decided that Morphling was overpowered. But looking at the Chinese games, AM > Morphling. Na'vi cannot beat iG or LGD playing standard. That is not in their favor; they don't have the skill level to do it (only 2 or 3 of their players could possibly match up, and even then Ferrari has demonstrated that he can beat Dendi almost virtually every time). Playing standard means they play right into iG or LGD's hands; the "standard" metagame as previously mentioned was developed by the Chinese, so trying to beat the Chinese at their own style isn't going to work out very well.
They don't have to play standard. They just have to find a way to beat Morphling - ie by picking a better late game carry. Xboct farms fine on Bfury carries. It's the early / mid game that Na'Vi was afraid of when they banned Morphling, because that hero has immense presence during the early phases of the game. Wave Form, when used correctly, is basically a ~300 damage AoE that hits 3-4 heroes - that's better than what int heroes have at that stage. Morphling never loses his lane, survives every gank, and is able to stop pushes very well. But with the way Na'Vi played this tournament, I feel that they had an edge playing turtle, because they are very effective at punishing over extensions by other teams - ie the games vs. LGD and iG, they were able to get iG and LGD to over extend and then smash them in counter team fights.
When it comes to standard, obviously Na'Vi feels uncomfortable playing the Chinese meta-game against the Chinese, but it's not because of their lack of individual skill. Rather, it's simply because it's hard to play against the Chinese in a play style that they have spent years perfecting. Na'Vi's players have tremendous intuition and instinct, which is why they're able to pick up heroes and strategies rapidly, but Puppey made the correct call that you don't want to stifle your intuition and instinct by playing to the opponent's standard, in which they are just going to beat you with their training and experience.
Finally, for your comment about Dendi vs. 430, I said it before - I don't think 430 beats Dendi on even match ups. TA vs. DK / QoP is not an even match up.
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They don't have to play standard. They just have to find a way to beat Morphling - ie by picking a better late game carry. Xboct farms fine on Bfury carries. It's the early / mid game that Na'Vi was afraid of when they banned Morphling, because that hero has immense presence during the early phases of the game. Wave Form, when used correctly, is basically a ~300 damage AoE that hits 3-4 heroes - that's better than what int heroes have at that stage. Morphling never loses his lane, survives every gank, and is able to stop pushes very well. But with the way Na'Vi played this tournament, I feel that they had an edge playing turtle, because they are very effective at punishing over extensions by other teams - ie the games vs. LGD and iG, they were able to get iG and LGD to over extend and then smash them in counter team fights.
When it comes to standard, obviously Na'Vi feels uncomfortable playing the Chinese meta-game against the Chinese, but it's not because of their lack of individual skill. Rather, it's simply because it's hard to play against the Chinese in a play style that they have spent years perfecting. Na'Vi's players have tremendous intuition and instinct, which is why they're able to pick up heroes and strategies rapidly, but Puppey made the correct call that you don't want to stifle your intuition and instinct by playing to the opponent's standard, in which they are just going to beat you with their training and experience.
Finally, for your comment about Dendi vs. 430, I said it before - I don't think 430 beats Dendi on even match ups. TA vs. DK / QoP is not an even match up.
This pretty much sums up my thoughts on Morph and Na'Vi as well. Very good post.
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On September 07 2012 03:58 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 12:54 superstartran wrote:On September 06 2012 09:56 Azarkon wrote:On September 05 2012 18:22 Ultrafilter wrote:
Did navi have any chance after that ravage fail in game 4? Maybe push more aggressively instead of going for Roshan. Or would that fail badly? Also, was the morphling ban worth it? I understand they banned him because the chinese can play morphling better than navi can but would it really be that bad to face a chinese morphling? IG vs LGD was 0-3 for morphling. So while navi can't play morphling, I see no reason why they can't play against morphling. Perhaps they could have used the ban for another broken hero. I too think Na'Vi overrated Morphling. They lost to it on Day 1 and Day 2 and then after that they just banned it every game. I think Na'Vi underrated their own ability, and took their Day 1-2 experiences badly though they weren't performing 100% at the time. After their losses they just decided that Morphling was overpowered. But looking at the Chinese games, AM > Morphling. Na'vi cannot beat iG or LGD playing standard. That is not in their favor; they don't have the skill level to do it (only 2 or 3 of their players could possibly match up, and even then Ferrari has demonstrated that he can beat Dendi almost virtually every time). Playing standard means they play right into iG or LGD's hands; the "standard" metagame as previously mentioned was developed by the Chinese, so trying to beat the Chinese at their own style isn't going to work out very well. They don't have to play standard. They just have to find a way to beat Morphling - ie by picking a better late game carry. Xboct farms fine on Bfury carries. It's the early / mid game that Na'Vi was afraid of when they banned Morphling, because that hero has immense presence during the early phases of the game. Wave Form, when used correctly, is basically a ~300 damage AoE that hits 3-4 heroes - that's better than what int heroes have at that stage. Morphling never loses his lane, survives every gank, and is able to stop pushes very well. But with the way Na'Vi played this tournament, I feel that they had an edge playing turtle, because they are very effective at punishing over extensions by other teams - ie the games vs. LGD and iG, they were able to get iG and LGD to over extend and then smash them in counter team fights. When it comes to standard, obviously Na'Vi feels uncomfortable playing the Chinese meta-game against the Chinese, but it's not because of their lack of individual skill. Rather, it's simply because it's hard to play against the Chinese in a play style that they have spent years perfecting. Na'Vi's players have tremendous intuition and instinct, which is why they're able to pick up heroes and strategies rapidly, but Puppey made the correct call that you don't want to stifle your intuition and instinct by playing to the opponent's standard, in which they are just going to beat you with their training and experience. Finally, for your comment about Dendi vs. 430, I said it before - I don't think 430 beats Dendi on even match ups. TA vs. DK / QoP is not an even match up.
Dendi is not as good as 430; that's all there is to it. In group stages he got really pooped on by 430 again pretty badly. In DotA 1, Dendi was regularly beaten by various Chinese players mid. This isn't something new; Dendi is not the best player in the world when it comes to the mid lane.
Zhou is a better player than XBOCT; this isn't even a question. If you think XBOCT is better or as good as Zhou you really need to get your eyes checked.
Faith/Chuan are arguably better than AA/Puppey when it comes to individual skill. Both Faith and Chuan are more versatile in what heroes they can play, while Puppey is really only highly effective on a certain group of heroes.
YYF and LOH is a complete wash, both players are about the same in terms of their contribution to the team.
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On September 07 2012 06:02 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 03:58 Azarkon wrote:On September 06 2012 12:54 superstartran wrote:On September 06 2012 09:56 Azarkon wrote:On September 05 2012 18:22 Ultrafilter wrote:
Did navi have any chance after that ravage fail in game 4? Maybe push more aggressively instead of going for Roshan. Or would that fail badly? Also, was the morphling ban worth it? I understand they banned him because the chinese can play morphling better than navi can but would it really be that bad to face a chinese morphling? IG vs LGD was 0-3 for morphling. So while navi can't play morphling, I see no reason why they can't play against morphling. Perhaps they could have used the ban for another broken hero. I too think Na'Vi overrated Morphling. They lost to it on Day 1 and Day 2 and then after that they just banned it every game. I think Na'Vi underrated their own ability, and took their Day 1-2 experiences badly though they weren't performing 100% at the time. After their losses they just decided that Morphling was overpowered. But looking at the Chinese games, AM > Morphling. Na'vi cannot beat iG or LGD playing standard. That is not in their favor; they don't have the skill level to do it (only 2 or 3 of their players could possibly match up, and even then Ferrari has demonstrated that he can beat Dendi almost virtually every time). Playing standard means they play right into iG or LGD's hands; the "standard" metagame as previously mentioned was developed by the Chinese, so trying to beat the Chinese at their own style isn't going to work out very well. They don't have to play standard. They just have to find a way to beat Morphling - ie by picking a better late game carry. Xboct farms fine on Bfury carries. It's the early / mid game that Na'Vi was afraid of when they banned Morphling, because that hero has immense presence during the early phases of the game. Wave Form, when used correctly, is basically a ~300 damage AoE that hits 3-4 heroes - that's better than what int heroes have at that stage. Morphling never loses his lane, survives every gank, and is able to stop pushes very well. But with the way Na'Vi played this tournament, I feel that they had an edge playing turtle, because they are very effective at punishing over extensions by other teams - ie the games vs. LGD and iG, they were able to get iG and LGD to over extend and then smash them in counter team fights. When it comes to standard, obviously Na'Vi feels uncomfortable playing the Chinese meta-game against the Chinese, but it's not because of their lack of individual skill. Rather, it's simply because it's hard to play against the Chinese in a play style that they have spent years perfecting. Na'Vi's players have tremendous intuition and instinct, which is why they're able to pick up heroes and strategies rapidly, but Puppey made the correct call that you don't want to stifle your intuition and instinct by playing to the opponent's standard, in which they are just going to beat you with their training and experience. Finally, for your comment about Dendi vs. 430, I said it before - I don't think 430 beats Dendi on even match ups. TA vs. DK / QoP is not an even match up. Dendi is not as good as 430; that's all there is to it. In group stages he got really pooped on by 430 again pretty badly. In DotA 1, Dendi was regularly beaten by various Chinese players mid. This isn't something new; Dendi is not the best player in the world when it comes to the mid lane. Zhou is a better player than XBOCT; this isn't even a question. If you think XBOCT is better or as good as Zhou you really need to get your eyes checked. Faith/Chuan are arguably better than AA/Puppey when it comes to individual skill. Both Faith and Chuan are more versatile in what heroes they can play, while Puppey is really only highly effective on a certain group of heroes. YYF and LOH is a complete wash, both players are about the same in terms of their contribution to the team.
pretty much same thoughts as mine, I would like to add for Azarkon, when dendi was playing rubick vs ferraris puck, ferrari outlasthitted him until puppey came to help mid. now, this is just one example, and im fully aware that ferraris tinker in the next game totally lost mid against dendis qop, but that wasnt a 1on1, tinker was basically away from the lane for half of the time, trying to stack the ancients and trying to get the runes, while dendi just stayed mid the whole time.
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EPT
