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United States47024 Posts
On September 07 2012 06:02 superstartran wrote:
Faith/Chuan are arguably better than AA/Puppey when it comes to individual skill. Both Faith and Chuan are more versatile in what heroes they can play, while Puppey is really only highly effective on a certain group of heroes.
I feel like AA/Puppey have certain really shining moments that make them stand out to people, while Faith/Chuan have less of those shining moments, but are generally more consistent and reliable contributors. A point of reference for this is game 3 of the finals, where Chuan's Enigma was REALLY conservative with Black Hole. He pretty much never got any of those super devastating Black Holes, but he was generally pretty safe and consistent the whole game (except the botched Hole at the top tower fight where it got instantly interrupted).
The point about Faith/Chuan's versatility is undeniable though.
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On September 07 2012 06:51 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 06:02 superstartran wrote:
Faith/Chuan are arguably better than AA/Puppey when it comes to individual skill. Both Faith and Chuan are more versatile in what heroes they can play, while Puppey is really only highly effective on a certain group of heroes. I feel like AA/Puppey have certain really shining moments that make them stand out to people, while Faith/Chuan have less of those shining moments, but are generally more consistent and reliable contributors. A point of reference for this is game 3 of the finals, where Chuan's Enigma was REALLY conservative with Black Hole. He pretty much never got any of those super devastating Black Holes, but he was generally pretty safe and consistent the whole game (except the botched Hole at the top tower fight where it got instantly interrupted). The point about Faith/Chuan's versatility is undeniable though.
Faith almost single handily won game 3 with Disrupter for iG and Chuan was incredibly solid throughout the entire tournament (especially on jungles). AA/Puppey may make big plays, but they also have many big fails. That's the issue.
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United States47024 Posts
On September 07 2012 07:00 superstartran wrote:
AA/Puppey may make big plays, but they also have many big fails.
TBH I think you could probably extend this description to all of Na'Vi, not just AA+Puppey.
LoH is really the only player that stands out as safe and consistent.
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On September 07 2012 06:02 superstartran wrote:
Dendi is not as good as 430; that's all there is to it. In group stages he got really pooped on by 430 again pretty badly. In DotA 1, Dendi was regularly beaten by various Chinese players mid. This isn't something new; Dendi is not the best player in the world when it comes to the mid lane.
But in this tournament he was not 'beaten' by 430 on even lanes. Hell, he destroyed 430 with QoP vs. Tinker, while against Super's Tinker he had a harder time. He only lost lanes vs. 430 when it was TA vs. DK / QoP, neither of which are even lanes.
Zhou is a better player than XBOCT; this isn't even a question. If you think XBOCT is better or as good as Zhou you really need to get your eyes checked.
Zhou is indeed better than Xboct overall, and that is a general advantage Chinese teams have over Western teams - their carries are better when it comes to mid / late game performance. But in this tournament, Zhou underperformed while Xboct, I feel, performed up to his ability. Slight differences in skill aren't game breaking.
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On September 07 2012 06:38 Ultrapwnage wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 06:02 superstartran wrote:On September 07 2012 03:58 Azarkon wrote:On September 06 2012 12:54 superstartran wrote:On September 06 2012 09:56 Azarkon wrote:On September 05 2012 18:22 Ultrafilter wrote:
Did navi have any chance after that ravage fail in game 4? Maybe push more aggressively instead of going for Roshan. Or would that fail badly? Also, was the morphling ban worth it? I understand they banned him because the chinese can play morphling better than navi can but would it really be that bad to face a chinese morphling? IG vs LGD was 0-3 for morphling. So while navi can't play morphling, I see no reason why they can't play against morphling. Perhaps they could have used the ban for another broken hero. I too think Na'Vi overrated Morphling. They lost to it on Day 1 and Day 2 and then after that they just banned it every game. I think Na'Vi underrated their own ability, and took their Day 1-2 experiences badly though they weren't performing 100% at the time. After their losses they just decided that Morphling was overpowered. But looking at the Chinese games, AM > Morphling. Na'vi cannot beat iG or LGD playing standard. That is not in their favor; they don't have the skill level to do it (only 2 or 3 of their players could possibly match up, and even then Ferrari has demonstrated that he can beat Dendi almost virtually every time). Playing standard means they play right into iG or LGD's hands; the "standard" metagame as previously mentioned was developed by the Chinese, so trying to beat the Chinese at their own style isn't going to work out very well. They don't have to play standard. They just have to find a way to beat Morphling - ie by picking a better late game carry. Xboct farms fine on Bfury carries. It's the early / mid game that Na'Vi was afraid of when they banned Morphling, because that hero has immense presence during the early phases of the game. Wave Form, when used correctly, is basically a ~300 damage AoE that hits 3-4 heroes - that's better than what int heroes have at that stage. Morphling never loses his lane, survives every gank, and is able to stop pushes very well. But with the way Na'Vi played this tournament, I feel that they had an edge playing turtle, because they are very effective at punishing over extensions by other teams - ie the games vs. LGD and iG, they were able to get iG and LGD to over extend and then smash them in counter team fights. When it comes to standard, obviously Na'Vi feels uncomfortable playing the Chinese meta-game against the Chinese, but it's not because of their lack of individual skill. Rather, it's simply because it's hard to play against the Chinese in a play style that they have spent years perfecting. Na'Vi's players have tremendous intuition and instinct, which is why they're able to pick up heroes and strategies rapidly, but Puppey made the correct call that you don't want to stifle your intuition and instinct by playing to the opponent's standard, in which they are just going to beat you with their training and experience. Finally, for your comment about Dendi vs. 430, I said it before - I don't think 430 beats Dendi on even match ups. TA vs. DK / QoP is not an even match up. Dendi is not as good as 430; that's all there is to it. In group stages he got really pooped on by 430 again pretty badly. In DotA 1, Dendi was regularly beaten by various Chinese players mid. This isn't something new; Dendi is not the best player in the world when it comes to the mid lane. Zhou is a better player than XBOCT; this isn't even a question. If you think XBOCT is better or as good as Zhou you really need to get your eyes checked. Faith/Chuan are arguably better than AA/Puppey when it comes to individual skill. Both Faith and Chuan are more versatile in what heroes they can play, while Puppey is really only highly effective on a certain group of heroes. YYF and LOH is a complete wash, both players are about the same in terms of their contribution to the team. pretty much same thoughts as mine, I would like to add for Azarkon, when dendi was playing rubick vs ferraris puck, ferrari outlasthitted him until puppey came to help mid. now, this is just one example, and im fully aware that ferraris tinker in the next game totally lost mid against dendis qop, but that wasnt a 1on1, tinker was basically away from the lane for half of the time, trying to stack the ancients and trying to get the runes, while dendi just stayed mid the whole time.
Rubick vs. Puck is at best an even match up, and Dendi wasn't that behind - I think the largest the difference ever got was a couple of creeps, which is nothing in the grand scheme of mid solo. The next game, though, he shat on 430 so hard with QoP vs. Tinker that 430 went to stack ancients BECAUSE he got shat on. Pulling ancients is a support's job - it's not what your mid solo does. The difference there was 50+ last hits for Dendi vs 20-30 for 430. It was a game winning advantage, and that's what Na'Vi did - they won.
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On September 07 2012 07:00 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 06:51 TheYango wrote:On September 07 2012 06:02 superstartran wrote:
Faith/Chuan are arguably better than AA/Puppey when it comes to individual skill. Both Faith and Chuan are more versatile in what heroes they can play, while Puppey is really only highly effective on a certain group of heroes. I feel like AA/Puppey have certain really shining moments that make them stand out to people, while Faith/Chuan have less of those shining moments, but are generally more consistent and reliable contributors. A point of reference for this is game 3 of the finals, where Chuan's Enigma was REALLY conservative with Black Hole. He pretty much never got any of those super devastating Black Holes, but he was generally pretty safe and consistent the whole game (except the botched Hole at the top tower fight where it got instantly interrupted). The point about Faith/Chuan's versatility is undeniable though. Faith almost single handily won game 3 with Disrupter for iG and Chuan was incredibly solid throughout the entire tournament (especially on jungles). AA/Puppey may make big plays, but they also have many big fails. That's the issue.
Puppey never fails when he's on a jungling hero. He always fails when he's on a laning hero. Not exactly instability when it comes to him.
AA... I've yet to see a game where he mega failed. His Leshrac was solid every game he played.
Chuan and Faith, they are solid but their big plays with standard heroes are few and far in between. Their Enigmas are obviously not on the level of LoH's / Puppey's, which is why they ended up banning it. There are opportunities for learning from both sides here.
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Almost every major carry player for any sponsored team is better than xboct. Xboct only has the real big success because his playstyle and teamwork mesh with the chaotic Na'Vi fashion. So even though he's not as fundamentally skilled as zhou, burning, hell even pajkatt, maybe Black^, his crazy gutsy play works (or fails hard) with Na'Vi. In terms of pure skill though I'd rank xbotc as one of the worst pro carries, especially when he tries to NS. I play pub NS better than xbotc.
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Canada2068 Posts
On September 06 2012 01:26 Kupon3ss wrote:where can i find a compilation of the hilarious translations during the international, writing a thread bashing anderson for selling free beta keys and might as well bash him for terrible english skills as well Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 20:20 PrinceXizor wrote:On September 05 2012 18:59 superstartran wrote:
Naga is almost a complete one trick pony, so if you can counter that trick (which isn't easy to do) you are in pretty good shape; . I know i loved partying up omni/jugg and getting double bkb. sometimes 40 seconds of magic immunity is just too fun to pass up vs a nuking squad with naga. but overall na'vi could beta iG standard games, but it'd be stressful, hard and not something na'vi particularly like doing. so they tried other things, most of which failed without dendi being free to make plays. Na'Vi had no chance in a "standard" game, since the standard metagame was defined, created, and masted by the Chinese, just look at the first 3 times they played during the event
This one is the biggest compilation I remember seeing (credits go to -mashi- from Gosugamers):
+ Show Spoiler +
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On September 07 2012 07:23 crms wrote:
Almost every major carry player for any sponsored team is better than xboct. Xboct only has the real big success because his playstyle and teamwork mesh with the chaotic Na'Vi fashion. So even though he's not as fundamentally skilled as zhou, burning, hell even pajkatt, maybe Black^, his crazy gutsy play works (or fails hard) with Na'Vi. In terms of pure skill though I'd rank xbotc as one of the worst pro carries, especially when he tries to NS. I play pub NS better than xbotc.
Xboct's advantage is that he plays a lot of carries that other players do not - ie Juggernaut, Faceless Void, Naga Siren which virtually nobody else in the West plays, Sand King, and Phantom Assassin. His play with standard heroes is average / bad, depending on the hero, but he makes up for it by knowing how to play other heroes.
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On September 07 2012 07:30 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 07:23 crms wrote:
Almost every major carry player for any sponsored team is better than xboct. Xboct only has the real big success because his playstyle and teamwork mesh with the chaotic Na'Vi fashion. So even though he's not as fundamentally skilled as zhou, burning, hell even pajkatt, maybe Black^, his crazy gutsy play works (or fails hard) with Na'Vi. In terms of pure skill though I'd rank xbotc as one of the worst pro carries, especially when he tries to NS. I play pub NS better than xbotc. Xboct's advantage is that he plays a lot of carries that other players do not - ie Juggernaut, Faceless Void, Naga Siren which virtually nobody else in the West plays, Sand King, and Phantom Assassin. His play with standard heroes is average / bad, depending on the hero, but he makes up for it by knowing how to play other heroes.
I don't know about that. I think it's more a liability he can't play the good standard heroes. An example would be having to ban the morph instead of picking it up if it was possibly because he just can't play that kind of hero. I think navi with someone like G as hard carry would be a far scarier force than their current team even though they did amazingly well now. I mean it's hard to say "Navi should change it up" when they do the best out of any western team. It's just other players could learn those heroes I feel and be better at them than Xboct.
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On September 07 2012 07:40 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 07:30 Azarkon wrote:On September 07 2012 07:23 crms wrote:
Almost every major carry player for any sponsored team is better than xboct. Xboct only has the real big success because his playstyle and teamwork mesh with the chaotic Na'Vi fashion. So even though he's not as fundamentally skilled as zhou, burning, hell even pajkatt, maybe Black^, his crazy gutsy play works (or fails hard) with Na'Vi. In terms of pure skill though I'd rank xbotc as one of the worst pro carries, especially when he tries to NS. I play pub NS better than xbotc. Xboct's advantage is that he plays a lot of carries that other players do not - ie Juggernaut, Faceless Void, Naga Siren which virtually nobody else in the West plays, Sand King, and Phantom Assassin. His play with standard heroes is average / bad, depending on the hero, but he makes up for it by knowing how to play other heroes. I don't know about that. I think it's more a liability he can't play the good standard heroes. An example would be having to ban the morph instead of picking it up if it was possibly because he just can't play that kind of hero. I think navi with someone like G as hard carry would be a far scarier force than their current team even though they did amazingly well now. I mean it's hard to say "Navi should change it up" when they do the best out of any western team. It's just other players could learn those heroes I feel and be better at them than Xboct.
I think it's smart rather than bad to train less played heroes. Had Xboct put all his time into training Morphling / AM / LD, at best Na'VI breaks 50:50 with the best Chinese teams going standard every game. In a tournament with 3-4 Chinese teams, the shots of winning is slim going 50:50. That's the thing - play the way the Chinese do and you're automatically behind because they have 3-4 top teams playing at that level, while in the West Na'Vi is the only team able to play at this level.
It's the same logic behind why Stephano doesn't play the way the Korean players do. You never want to play a meta-game in which they have the advantage.
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On September 07 2012 07:40 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 07:30 Azarkon wrote:On September 07 2012 07:23 crms wrote:
Almost every major carry player for any sponsored team is better than xboct. Xboct only has the real big success because his playstyle and teamwork mesh with the chaotic Na'Vi fashion. So even though he's not as fundamentally skilled as zhou, burning, hell even pajkatt, maybe Black^, his crazy gutsy play works (or fails hard) with Na'Vi. In terms of pure skill though I'd rank xbotc as one of the worst pro carries, especially when he tries to NS. I play pub NS better than xbotc. Xboct's advantage is that he plays a lot of carries that other players do not - ie Juggernaut, Faceless Void, Naga Siren which virtually nobody else in the West plays, Sand King, and Phantom Assassin. His play with standard heroes is average / bad, depending on the hero, but he makes up for it by knowing how to play other heroes. I don't know about that. I think it's more a liability he can't play the good standard heroes. An example would be having to ban the morph instead of picking it up if it was possibly because he just can't play that kind of hero. I think navi with someone like G as hard carry would be a far scarier force than their current team even though they did amazingly well now. I mean it's hard to say "Navi should change it up" when they do the best out of any western team. It's just other players could learn those heroes I feel and be better at them than Xboct.
I agree. Also I don't think his Naga play was that great. Also, Faceless, Naga and Jugg can all be played just as well by any pro carry. Sand King and PA he can play well but black is a way better Sand King and I haven't seen any other PA in foreverrrrrrr.
xbotc lives and dies with his aggressive playstyle and I firmly believe that is the biggest reason he has such an impact in Na'Vi. I'd never say he's a BAD PLAYER, I just think any other pro in the 1 spot on a major team is generally better in terms of pure skill. Xbotc makes a lot of bad decisions but Na'Vi is so damn in your face and reckless it works in his team. IF xbotc played on a different squad I think it'd be much more disasterous. I also don't know if Na'Vi would suddenly be better with a zhou or burning simply because they might be better than xbotc. To be honest, I think dota is pretty easy on the control your hero level, most pros are pretty damn good. How you mesh with your team is more important.
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I honestly feel G is a better version of xboct and would love to see navi with him on. He has the aggressive playstyle but at the same time has the mechanical skill and better decision making.
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On September 07 2012 07:23 crms wrote:
Almost every major carry player for any sponsored team is better than xboct. Xboct only has the real big success because his playstyle and teamwork mesh with the chaotic Na'Vi fashion. So even though he's not as fundamentally skilled as zhou, burning, hell even pajkatt, maybe Black^, his crazy gutsy play works (or fails hard) with Na'Vi. In terms of pure skill though I'd rank xbotc as one of the worst pro carries, especially when he tries to NS. I play pub NS better than xbotc.
Well we can endlessly discuss who the better player is individually etc.
Ofc there are better carries than Xboct, but as you said his style fits the playstyle of Na'vi and isn't that what really matters?
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On September 07 2012 10:10 Jakkerr wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 07:23 crms wrote:
Almost every major carry player for any sponsored team is better than xboct. Xboct only has the real big success because his playstyle and teamwork mesh with the chaotic Na'Vi fashion. So even though he's not as fundamentally skilled as zhou, burning, hell even pajkatt, maybe Black^, his crazy gutsy play works (or fails hard) with Na'Vi. In terms of pure skill though I'd rank xbotc as one of the worst pro carries, especially when he tries to NS. I play pub NS better than xbotc. Well we can endlessly discuss who the better player is individually etc. Ofc there are better carries than Xboct, but as you said his style fits the playstyle of Na'vi and isn't that what really matters?
Sometimes it does. However, if Burning or Sylar (who are both more aggressive than Zhou IIRC) spoke Russian and played on Na'Vi in lieu of XBOCT, I guarantee Na'Vi would be dropping much fewer games and running much more of the Morphling/Lone Druid.
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On September 07 2012 07:15 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 06:02 superstartran wrote:
Dendi is not as good as 430; that's all there is to it. In group stages he got really pooped on by 430 again pretty badly. In DotA 1, Dendi was regularly beaten by various Chinese players mid. This isn't something new; Dendi is not the best player in the world when it comes to the mid lane. But in this tournament he was not 'beaten' by 430 on even lanes. Hell, he destroyed 430 with QoP vs. Tinker, while against Super's Tinker he had a harder time. He only lost lanes vs. 430 when it was TA vs. DK / QoP, neither of which are even lanes. Show nested quote +
Zhou is a better player than XBOCT; this isn't even a question. If you think XBOCT is better or as good as Zhou you really need to get your eyes checked.
Zhou is indeed better than Xboct overall, and that is a general advantage Chinese teams have over Western teams - their carries are better when it comes to mid / late game performance. But in this tournament, Zhou underperformed while Xboct, I feel, performed up to his ability. Slight differences in skill aren't game breaking.
430's Tinker was forced to leave lanes, camp runes, while also assisting his team. This wasn't exactly an ideal situation at all for him, while Dendi was allowed to basically free farm mid uncontested. In every other game he faced 430, 430 was beating him quite handily until Dendi's team came to bail him out. Seriously, this is just DotA 2. You don't even want to know how many times Dendi lost mid in DotA 1 to various Chinese teams. X for example pretty much dominated him mid when they faced off at ESWC in 2010. And no matter how you spin it, DK/Rubick couldn't even manage to stay ahead of QoP. Yes, 430 has more experience in that match-up, but at that level, if you can't win a 2 v 1 lane it's pretty obvious that the solo mid player is just tremendously outplaying the other two.
Zhou is not slightly better than XBOCT. Zhou is a country mile ahead of XBOCT. XBOCT wasn't even in the top 10 carries in terms of GPM at the International, you do know that right? Despite the fact that he does nothing but play bfury carries in a 4 protect 1 scheme, XBOCT consistently under performs when it comes to farming. Even if you make the case he gets kills and assists as a carry alot, he doesn't do it enough to warrant him being that far behind other carries.
On September 07 2012 10:46 CherryNubCakes wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 10:10 Jakkerr wrote:On September 07 2012 07:23 crms wrote:
Almost every major carry player for any sponsored team is better than xboct. Xboct only has the real big success because his playstyle and teamwork mesh with the chaotic Na'Vi fashion. So even though he's not as fundamentally skilled as zhou, burning, hell even pajkatt, maybe Black^, his crazy gutsy play works (or fails hard) with Na'Vi. In terms of pure skill though I'd rank xbotc as one of the worst pro carries, especially when he tries to NS. I play pub NS better than xbotc. Well we can endlessly discuss who the better player is individually etc. Ofc there are better carries than Xboct, but as you said his style fits the playstyle of Na'vi and isn't that what really matters? Sometimes it does. However, if Burning or Sylar (who are both more aggressive than Zhou IIRC) spoke Russian and played on Na'Vi in lieu of XBOCT, I guarantee Na'Vi would be dropping much fewer games and running much more of the Morphling/Lone Druid.
If they had Burning Na'vi would probably almost never lose games. The threat of Anti-Mage/Morph/LD would force teams to just outright ban that, and that would open up so many options for Na'vi it would be stupid.
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United States47024 Posts
On September 07 2012 10:46 CherryNubCakes wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 10:10 Jakkerr wrote:On September 07 2012 07:23 crms wrote:
Almost every major carry player for any sponsored team is better than xboct. Xboct only has the real big success because his playstyle and teamwork mesh with the chaotic Na'Vi fashion. So even though he's not as fundamentally skilled as zhou, burning, hell even pajkatt, maybe Black^, his crazy gutsy play works (or fails hard) with Na'Vi. In terms of pure skill though I'd rank xbotc as one of the worst pro carries, especially when he tries to NS. I play pub NS better than xbotc. Well we can endlessly discuss who the better player is individually etc. Ofc there are better carries than Xboct, but as you said his style fits the playstyle of Na'vi and isn't that what really matters? Sometimes it does. However, if Burning or Sylar (who are both more aggressive than Zhou IIRC) spoke Russian and played on Na'Vi in lieu of XBOCT, I guarantee Na'Vi would be dropping much fewer games and running much more of the Morphling/Lone Druid.
lol
Zhou is actually known among Chinese fans to be the most aggressive and fight-loving of the 3 top carries. Being safe and conservative is actually a quality that's been ascribed much more to Burning and Sylar.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
G would probably the equivalent of hao as a real 1st position player
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On September 07 2012 13:34 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 10:46 CherryNubCakes wrote:On September 07 2012 10:10 Jakkerr wrote:On September 07 2012 07:23 crms wrote:
Almost every major carry player for any sponsored team is better than xboct. Xboct only has the real big success because his playstyle and teamwork mesh with the chaotic Na'Vi fashion. So even though he's not as fundamentally skilled as zhou, burning, hell even pajkatt, maybe Black^, his crazy gutsy play works (or fails hard) with Na'Vi. In terms of pure skill though I'd rank xbotc as one of the worst pro carries, especially when he tries to NS. I play pub NS better than xbotc. Well we can endlessly discuss who the better player is individually etc. Ofc there are better carries than Xboct, but as you said his style fits the playstyle of Na'vi and isn't that what really matters? Sometimes it does. However, if Burning or Sylar (who are both more aggressive than Zhou IIRC) spoke Russian and played on Na'Vi in lieu of XBOCT, I guarantee Na'Vi would be dropping much fewer games and running much more of the Morphling/Lone Druid. lol Zhou is actually known among Chinese fans to be the most aggressive and fight-loving of the 3 top carries. Being safe and conservative is actually a quality that's been ascribed much more to Burning and Sylar.
Really? Whoops. I did read somewhere that people considered Zhou to be more dependent on his teammates or something of the sort. Must have jumped to the wrong conclusions.
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On September 07 2012 13:00 superstartran wrote:
430's Tinker was forced to leave lanes, camp runes, while also assisting his team. This wasn't exactly an ideal situation at all for him, while Dendi was allowed to basically free farm mid uncontested. In every other game he faced 430, 430 was beating him quite handily until Dendi's team came to bail him out.
He was forced to leave lanes because he knew he was getting beat. A mid Tinker's main goal is to farm a BoT ASAP. Rune control is useful, sure, but only when it helps you farm / gank and 430 did neither well that game.
430 did not beat him 'quite handily' every other game on even lanes. Bring up one game where 430 beat him 'handily' on even lanes. TA vs. DK is not an even lane, and TA vs. DK + Puppey support is worse because Puppey does not know how to lane - we saw that whenever he played out of the jungle.
Dendi outplayed 430 several times this tournament, and it's sad that people don't see it. Another example I remember is when 430 and Dendi were contesting a rune, TA vs. Rubick, and 430 invis'd ontop of the rune but Dendi still stole it with his better timing.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/5Crah.jpg)
