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On March 24 2013 06:16 sumsaR wrote:
Aui just said on stream that Fogged wanted to drive his GF somewhere so they took the default win. They didn't want to wait extra few minutes for Fnatic. Confirmed not GD studio's fault.
That is a bullshit excuse, unless fogged planned for them to throw the series 0-2 the 1-0 advantage for dignitas guaranteed that the series wasn't going to go any later than had been planned.
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so i hope that the GD studio never plays 2 bo3 on the same day or they are running in scheduling problems with their ruleset soon. how much time do they set for a bo3?
Edit:
[...]
When we first planned this tournament, all play days were meant to be tuesdays and thursdays, 6pm CET and 9pm CET, 6 broadcasts for 2 groups of 4 2 BO3s. That didn't work, so we worked with the teams, we changed the schedule so much so that group B doesn't even have a day with 2 BO3s on it, despite the fact the whole way we designed the tournament and show.
[...]
http://www.reddit.com/r/thegdstudio/comments/1avln6/terrible_decision_to_give_fnatic_a_forfeit/c9158bn
well, if on bo3 takes more than 3 hours, what then? start the next match, but not showing it live? a second stream?
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United Kingdom24425 Posts
Well they did and they were late. Luckily enough VP didn't play.
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On March 24 2013 06:25 the`postman wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2013 06:16 sumsaR wrote:
Aui just said on stream that Fogged wanted to drive his GF somewhere so they took the default win. They didn't want to wait extra few minutes for Fnatic. Confirmed not GD studio's fault.
That is a bullshit excuse, unless fogged planned for them to throw the series 0-2 the 1-0 advantage for dignitas guaranteed that the series wasn't going to go any later than had been planned.
I guess Fogged pounced at the opportunity of being able to pick up his GF earlier than initially planned? "Hm, I take this default win and pick up her now or I wait more and play this game I could get a default win for and pick up her after...?" I'm guessing was the train of thought. I'm not Fogged. I can't tell you how he makes decisions or thinks.
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On March 24 2013 06:13 cecek wrote:
Thirty minutes for a defloss is incredibly strict... Realisticly, how do you make a shedule if you're a pro team? You would have to dedicate 90 minutes for a bo1 and 5 hours for a bo3 AND you couldn't participate in any tournament where any delay might happen (i.e. every single one of them apart from DH Invitational) in order to be perfectly on time for every match. That's just not possible at all.
You don't have to plan like that, you still plan normally (bo1 = 1 hr bo3 = 3 hr etc.) and then just take def losses every couple of weeks or a loss of game every week in some league. It shouldn't be you say you're playing at 21:00, show up at 21:40 and then play your best of 3. Scheduling in Dota 2 is a complete mess right now (for online tournaments anyways) where you never know who's playing when cause of delays and overlapping tournaments.
If you want to play 3 tournament games a day that's absolutely fine, but if one game is an 80 minute slug fest and makes you late to tournament number x+1 then you take a game loss for that tourney. This also eliminates the problem that another player is late to your tournament game and causes you to be late to your next tourney game and then a chain reaction happens and suddenly one of the tourneys has to have their casters stay up till 1 in the morning. Taking def wins should be the default thing to do instead of screwing over every team and tourney that needs to play after the game where someone was late.
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Doesn't it seem ironic that the GDStudio, who schedules their best of three's three hours apart, caused VP to take a walkover (games went 30 minutes too late), and then forces a walkover on Fnatic, because their tournament had gone 30 minutes too late? If the 30 minute walkover rule is so important that it must be strictly enforced with no room for change, then why the hell do they schedule their own series in a timeframe in which they can easily be 30 minutes delayed. Especially when they forced VP to take the walkover because of this.
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On March 24 2013 06:42 the`postman wrote:
Doesn't it seem ironic that the GDStudio, who schedules their best of three's three hours apart, caused VP to take a walkover (games went 30 minutes too late), and then forces a walkover on Fnatic, because their tournament had gone 30 minutes too late? If the 30 minute walkover rule is so important that it must be strictly enforced with no room for change, then why the hell do they schedule their own series in a timeframe in which they can easily be 30 minutes delayed. Especially when they forced VP to take the walkover because of this.
No.
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Czech Republic18921 Posts
The funny thing is, if you want to enforce teams to be exactly on point for your points, you should make sure your schedule makes it impossible for a delay to occur. The VP vs Liquid match was delayed for 40 minutes (it didn't happen in the, but that doesn't matter), now what if the match dragged out and Liquid had another match scheduled after that with the same strict rules as DH Invitational? They would be forced to forfeit again. Who do you blame then?
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On March 24 2013 06:42 the`postman wrote:
Doesn't it seem ironic that the GDStudio, who schedules their best of three's three hours apart, caused VP to take a walkover (games went 30 minutes too late), and then forces a walkover on Fnatic, because their tournament had gone 30 minutes too late? If the 30 minute walkover rule is so important that it must be strictly enforced with no room for change, then why the hell do they schedule their own series in a timeframe in which they can easily be 30 minutes delayed. Especially when they forced VP to take the walkover because of this.
except that VP pulled out well before they knew the matches were even going to go over?
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United Kingdom24425 Posts
On March 24 2013 06:43 bh. wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2013 06:42 the`postman wrote:
Doesn't it seem ironic that the GDStudio, who schedules their best of three's three hours apart, caused VP to take a walkover (games went 30 minutes too late), and then forces a walkover on Fnatic, because their tournament had gone 30 minutes too late? If the 30 minute walkover rule is so important that it must be strictly enforced with no room for change, then why the hell do they schedule their own series in a timeframe in which they can easily be 30 minutes delayed. Especially when they forced VP to take the walkover because of this. except that VP pulled out well before they knew the matches were even going to go over? The point he's making is that a team should have gotten a defwin in that situation, although they obviously wouldn't do that when their own tournament is running late.
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I'm angry as a viewer, especially that I just finished doing stuff I had to do, finished eating, and was ready to lay in my couch watching good produced doto =)
But I understand all parties, GD to enforce their rules, Fnatic because they're usually punctual, and Dignitas because they were allowed to ask the rules to be enforced.
In these cases frustration make people angry and people want to blame someone but there is no one to blame, everyone was in their rights.
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On March 24 2013 06:13 SFC wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2013 06:10 Chezus wrote:
Shouldn't a forced loss be equal to at least an average game's length? 15 minutes is too short in my opinion. I think longer than 15min for sure, but I think average game length is to long, you can't expect people to sit in an empty lobby for an hour plus.
Well, yeah I guess, but it's not like they would have finished any earlier otherwise. But I guess you have a point. It just seems weird to me that they'd force a def loss after only 30 minutes. It should have been 45 mins to an hour at the very least.
Now I may not be fully informed, but Fnatic was late because the WePlay tournament was running late, right? Was Fnatic allowed to reschedule their WePlay matches? I mean, if a tournament is going to run late, a team should be allowed to reschedule the match to a later date, at any point (not during games, of course, but even in between bo3's imo).
If that is already the case, then I can only really blame Fnatic for not rescheduling their WePlay matches... If that is not the case, then something needs to happen...
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United Kingdom24425 Posts
On March 24 2013 06:45 MrCon wrote:
I'm angry as a viewer, especially that I just finished doing stuff I had to do, finished eating, and was ready to lay in my couch watching good produced doto =)
But I understand all parties, GD to enforce their rules, Fnatic because they're usually punctual, and Dignitas because they were allowed to ask the rules to be enforced.
In these cases frustration make people angry and people want to blame someone but there is no one to blame, everyone was in their rights. Really not about being within their rights. It's ultimately the GDstudio's product and 'having games' is a lot more important than any other part of the production. It is of course within their right, but that doesn't change the fact that people aren't getting the product, and people who bought tickets aren't getting the games they were promised.
So what's more important, sticking to ideals or accepting some shit to still get a game at the end. Because people shouldn't act like this is some step the tournament takes that will change how online tournaments in Dota work, because it's not the first tournament with defwins because of lateness. Most tournaments would just rather show matches and go to extreme lengths to make sure that happens. If I'm not mistaken, both TPL and SL have defwins for 15-30 minutes late, but they will still play a match if it harms no-one. TPL rules: + Show Spoiler + If a team is late by 25 mn from the official time, its opponent is awarded a default win (1-0). If the team is still late after 40 mn, its opponent is awarded a final default win (2-0).
Now I may not be fully informed, but Fnatic was late because the WePlay tournament was running late, right? Was Fnatic allowed to reschedule their WePlay matches? I mean, if a tournament is going to run late, a team should be allowed to reschedule the match to a later date, at any point (not during games, of course, but even in between bo3's imo). Weplay runs an entire group in one day, so teams only have to show up on that one day and play and then they're done until the playoffs.
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On March 24 2013 06:51 the`postman wrote:Also, if "rules are rules" why wasn't anyone given a 1-0 lead in Qpad vs Liquid? The timestamp clearly shows that the matches started 20 minutes late. http://www.twitch.tv/thegdstudio/b/379346645
The match may have started 20 minutes late, but neither team was over 15 minutes late. There's your fundamental flaw in that strawman argument. You should really practice more at finding faults.
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On March 24 2013 06:58 sumsaR wrote:The match may have started 20 minutes late, but neither team was over 15 minutes late. There's your fundamental flaw in that strawman argument. You should really practice more at finding faults.
Are you serious? What does that even mean? They even say in the cast that it was delayed because they were waiting for Korok to get there, everything that we were shown says that liquid was late. And even if they weren't it shows that GDStudio has no problem starting a series late without punishing a team
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On March 24 2013 06:52 teapoted wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2013 06:45 MrCon wrote:
I'm angry as a viewer, especially that I just finished doing stuff I had to do, finished eating, and was ready to lay in my couch watching good produced doto =)
But I understand all parties, GD to enforce their rules, Fnatic because they're usually punctual, and Dignitas because they were allowed to ask the rules to be enforced.
In these cases frustration make people angry and people want to blame someone but there is no one to blame, everyone was in their rights. Really not about being within their rights. It's ultimately the GDstudio's product and 'having games' is a lot more important than any other part of the production. It is of course within their right, but that doesn't change the fact that people aren't getting the product, and people who bought tickets aren't getting the games they were promised. So what's more important, sticking to ideals or accepting some shit to still get a game at the end. Because people shouldn't act like this is some step the tournament takes that will change how online tournaments in Dota work, because it's not the first tournament with defwins because of lateness. Most tournaments would just rather show matches and go to extreme lengths to make sure that happens. Show nested quote +Now I may not be fully informed, but Fnatic was late because the WePlay tournament was running late, right? Was Fnatic allowed to reschedule their WePlay matches? I mean, if a tournament is going to run late, a team should be allowed to reschedule the match to a later date, at any point (not during games, of course, but even in between bo3's imo). Weplay runs an entire group in one day, so teams only have to show up on that one day and play and then they're done until the playoffs. So making them reschedule is a bit silly as afterall, it was only 30 minutes, that's not very late in Dota terms.
Well I can definitely understand Fnatic's frustration in that case. They were not to blame, in my opinion. I am sad that Dignitas took the defloss, though. It is within their right, but I hope they realise that this could have happened to them as well. A little compassion and some flexibility in the rules could go a long way to make a lot of viewers very happy.
Sticking to the rules while it negatively effects the viewers and makes one team unhappy... I really don't understand...
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Czech Republic18921 Posts
Delays WILL happen. There's no way to get around that. It happened even in this tournament, which has the strickets admining out of them all and we had like 4 play days. And if all tournaments followed exactly the same rules, teams would be forced to take defflosses when they have no control over it.
The only way this would work is if tournaments dedicated like 6 hours to a bo3 match, if they wanted to run come ads in between matches. Then this might work. But if you did that, you would run into the possibility of having up to 5 hours of downtime, if the match is over quickly.
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On March 24 2013 06:51 the`postman wrote:Also, if "rules are rules" why wasn't anyone given a 1-0 lead in Qpad vs Liquid? The timestamp clearly shows that the matches started 20 minutes late. http://www.twitch.tv/thegdstudio/b/379346645
Okay, i'll bite.
You seem to be confused between the numbers 20 (the amount of minutes it took for QPAD/Liquid to enter pick ban) and 30 (the amount of minutes after Fnatic should have been playing in the DH Invitational but were actually still in a WePlay tournament).
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Czech Republic18921 Posts
On March 24 2013 07:04 MVTaylor wrote:Okay, i'll bite. You seem to be confused between the numbers 20 (the amount of minutes it took for QPAD/Liquid to enter pick ban) and 30 (the amount of minutes after Fnatic should have been playing in the DH Invitational but were actually still in a WePlay tournament).
The rules say 15 minutes - one game deff loss. 30 minutes - match loss. If you take it into the extreme, Liquid should've gotten a one game defloss.
Honestly, we don't know the details. Maybe the 15/30 minutes only apply when the tourney admins don't hear anything from the team, but if they come and explain what's going on, it's fine.
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EPT
