Well EG is the richest team outside of China/Korea, Dignitas is big and TL is big. If they can't do anything at all to get some NA scene going i think it's because they don't really try to and they are more than happy to crash on EU scene.
Let them play on EU scene but they don't whine because of the servers. They should already be playing 100% on EU servers. I can assure you that if it was the opposite NA would have no second thought and would make everyone play on their servers only.
On the topic of NA Dota 2. I don't understand why some NA esports companies don't start doing something, north american Dota 2 seems like a totally untapped market. Imagine if today a decently sized Dota 2 NA only online league was announced. I'm thinking basically The Defence, or D2L production level.
A lot of the high skilled US inhouse players would probably make stacks and enter the competition. Now imagine some of the guys, who had a good run in the league, approaching a potential sponsor/esports team with "we participated in this NA only Dota 2 tournament, we got 4th place after EG, TL and Dignitas, won $1500 and 3 of our matches were watched by over 15k people. Next season is starting in 2 weeks, want to sponsor us?" I think that's quite a neat offer for a potential sponsor. As opposed to what tier 2 NA teams have to offer now most likely, which is: "We're a bunch of dudes who play DotA together in ixdl, we entered joinDOTA open, gosuleague and other open competitions where got stomped by EU teams. Want to sponsor us?"
Not only would it help the NA scene grow so so much, but more importantly the organisation that does it first and does it right will establish itself as THE NA DotA thing to watch, and I think there definitely would be audience for this kind of thing, especially if you took one step further with a LAN finals. I guess I'm not seeing something, but this seems like such an obvious thing, there seems to be soo much space there, while the EU scene is getting rather full if we're talking about online content. It's hard to keep up with it as a spectator, let alone convince high profile EU teams to participate in your thing.
I think NEO Dota are trying to do something with the SECS thing, but it seems it doesn't have the money or people well known enough to deliver a good enough production value.
On April 25 2013 02:25 Shaella wrote: You can't split the scenes, you can't establish a random server in the middle of the ocean,
Why not? Other games have regionally isolated competition (except in the case of major LANs), and NA/EU competition is already split from Chinese/SEA competitions.
You could argue that earlier in DotA 2's life, the scene was not large or stable enough for you to have region-only tournaments with good enough competition, but I don't see that as the case anymore. NA-only and EU-only tournaments would have enough participants to be stable.
NA-only tournaments would get stale fast unless some as-yet unformed teams became decent in a hurry. NA currently seriously lacks "tier 2" teams (assuming you assign Dig/TL/EG "tier 1" status for NA). Fnatic.NA is essentially the only candidate
They lack tier 2 teams because they don't have tournaments. If someone made a 5-10k NA only league (however much is necessary for EG/TL/Dig to play) you'd by the second season (if you're lucky by the first) have enough teams to make the NA scene interesting. But no organizer wants to do that because they could just get the EU teams to play with that prize pool as well.
Exactly.
The reason no second-tier NA teams pop up is because there's no real incentive or progression. Either you're instantly good enough to compete in cross-Atlantic tournaments, or you're nobody. There's an enormous barrier of entry there.
I agree, the barrier to entry is massive, and the hours are completely brutal for NA dota teams
But if the EU scene just cut off the NA scene, NA wouldn't suddenly sprout up and grow, it'd most likely die off very quickly.
Its not that I don't think the NA scene can't grow, but unless NASL or MLG pick DotA2 up, i don't see where the growth will come from.
Organizers will always want to run cross-continent leagues for the top teams, so you're not going to be cutting people off. But NA needs a StarLadder, which isn't locked to EU, but it's only played on EU servers and time-zones.
This isn't MLG/NASL's role most likely. Those guys are too big to start fresh growing a community in NA. If MLG start doing Dota tournaments they will invite big named teams.
I think what would be best, but obviously unlikely to happen. Is if the US Dota teams EG/TL/Dig did something together, like a 10k league with qualifiers and like 12 NA teams. They would make part of it back considering they are playing in it and tickets/stream rev. But if they want LAN events in NA and they don't want to host them themselves, this is the best thing they could do to grow the audience for that time-zone.
On April 25 2013 02:25 Shaella wrote: You can't split the scenes, you can't establish a random server in the middle of the ocean,
Why not? Other games have regionally isolated competition (except in the case of major LANs), and NA/EU competition is already split from Chinese/SEA competitions.
You could argue that earlier in DotA 2's life, the scene was not large or stable enough for you to have region-only tournaments with good enough competition, but I don't see that as the case anymore. NA-only and EU-only tournaments would have enough participants to be stable.
NA-only tournaments would get stale fast unless some as-yet unformed teams became decent in a hurry. NA currently seriously lacks "tier 2" teams (assuming you assign Dig/TL/EG "tier 1" status for NA). Fnatic.NA is essentially the only candidate
They lack tier 2 teams because they don't have tournaments. If someone made a 5-10k NA only league (however much is necessary for EG/TL/Dig to play) you'd by the second season (if you're lucky by the first) have enough teams to make the NA scene interesting. But no organizer wants to do that because they could just get the EU teams to play with that prize pool as well.
Exactly.
The reason no second-tier NA teams pop up is because there's no real incentive or progression. Either you're instantly good enough to compete in cross-Atlantic tournaments, or you're nobody. There's an enormous barrier of entry there.
I agree, the barrier to entry is massive, and the hours are completely brutal for NA dota teams
But if the EU scene just cut off the NA scene, NA wouldn't suddenly sprout up and grow, it'd most likely die off very quickly.
Its not that I don't think the NA scene can't grow, but unless NASL or MLG pick DotA2 up, i don't see where the growth will come from.
Organizers will always want to run cross-continent leagues for the top teams, so you're not going to be cutting people off. But NA needs a StarLadder, which isn't locked to EU, but it's only played on EU servers and time-zones.
This isn't MLG/NASL's role most likely. Those guys are too big to start fresh growing a community in NA. If MLG start doing Dota tournaments they will invite big named teams.
I think what would be best, but obviously unlikely to happen. Is if the US Dota teams EG/TL/Dig did something together, like a 10k league with qualifiers and like 12 NA teams. They would make part of it back considering they are playing in it and tickets/stream rev.
I unno, ESL gave good exposure to the 2nd tier teams, I feel like NASL should be able to do the same
On April 25 2013 02:25 Shaella wrote: You can't split the scenes, you can't establish a random server in the middle of the ocean,
Why not? Other games have regionally isolated competition (except in the case of major LANs), and NA/EU competition is already split from Chinese/SEA competitions.
You could argue that earlier in DotA 2's life, the scene was not large or stable enough for you to have region-only tournaments with good enough competition, but I don't see that as the case anymore. NA-only and EU-only tournaments would have enough participants to be stable.
NA-only tournaments would get stale fast unless some as-yet unformed teams became decent in a hurry. NA currently seriously lacks "tier 2" teams (assuming you assign Dig/TL/EG "tier 1" status for NA). Fnatic.NA is essentially the only candidate
They lack tier 2 teams because they don't have tournaments. If someone made a 5-10k NA only league (however much is necessary for EG/TL/Dig to play) you'd by the second season (if you're lucky by the first) have enough teams to make the NA scene interesting. But no organizer wants to do that because they could just get the EU teams to play with that prize pool as well.
Exactly.
The reason no second-tier NA teams pop up is because there's no real incentive or progression. Either you're instantly good enough to compete in cross-Atlantic tournaments, or you're nobody. There's an enormous barrier of entry there.
I agree, the barrier to entry is massive, and the hours are completely brutal for NA dota teams
But if the EU scene just cut off the NA scene, NA wouldn't suddenly sprout up and grow, it'd most likely die off very quickly.
Its not that I don't think the NA scene can't grow, but unless NASL or MLG pick DotA2 up, i don't see where the growth will come from.
Organizers will always want to run cross-continent leagues for the top teams, so you're not going to be cutting people off. But NA needs a StarLadder, which isn't locked to EU, but it's only played on EU servers and time-zones.
This isn't MLG/NASL's role most likely. Those guys are too big to start fresh growing a community in NA. If MLG start doing Dota tournaments they will invite big named teams.
I think what would be best, but obviously unlikely to happen. Is if the US Dota teams EG/TL/Dig did something together, like a 10k league with qualifiers and like 12 NA teams. They would make part of it back considering they are playing in it and tickets/stream rev.
I unno, ESL gave good exposure to the 2nd tier teams, I feel like NASL should be able to do the same
But why would they want to? What incentive would they have to run a tourney full of no name NA teams that nobody would watch over inviting the best western teams?
Why is it unlikely to happen? EG is doing D2L, I can totally imagine that being NA only. Liquid was (is?) doing Starcraft 2 tournaments, why not Dota 2? I guess people really don't think Dota 2 is worth investing into in NA... I don't know how to change their mind.
On April 25 2013 02:25 Shaella wrote: You can't split the scenes, you can't establish a random server in the middle of the ocean,
Why not? Other games have regionally isolated competition (except in the case of major LANs), and NA/EU competition is already split from Chinese/SEA competitions.
You could argue that earlier in DotA 2's life, the scene was not large or stable enough for you to have region-only tournaments with good enough competition, but I don't see that as the case anymore. NA-only and EU-only tournaments would have enough participants to be stable.
NA-only tournaments would get stale fast unless some as-yet unformed teams became decent in a hurry. NA currently seriously lacks "tier 2" teams (assuming you assign Dig/TL/EG "tier 1" status for NA). Fnatic.NA is essentially the only candidate
They lack tier 2 teams because they don't have tournaments. If someone made a 5-10k NA only league (however much is necessary for EG/TL/Dig to play) you'd by the second season (if you're lucky by the first) have enough teams to make the NA scene interesting. But no organizer wants to do that because they could just get the EU teams to play with that prize pool as well.
Exactly.
The reason no second-tier NA teams pop up is because there's no real incentive or progression. Either you're instantly good enough to compete in cross-Atlantic tournaments, or you're nobody. There's an enormous barrier of entry there.
I agree, the barrier to entry is massive, and the hours are completely brutal for NA dota teams
But if the EU scene just cut off the NA scene, NA wouldn't suddenly sprout up and grow, it'd most likely die off very quickly.
Its not that I don't think the NA scene can't grow, but unless NASL or MLG pick DotA2 up, i don't see where the growth will come from.
Organizers will always want to run cross-continent leagues for the top teams, so you're not going to be cutting people off. But NA needs a StarLadder, which isn't locked to EU, but it's only played on EU servers and time-zones.
This isn't MLG/NASL's role most likely. Those guys are too big to start fresh growing a community in NA. If MLG start doing Dota tournaments they will invite big named teams.
I think what would be best, but obviously unlikely to happen. Is if the US Dota teams EG/TL/Dig did something together, like a 10k league with qualifiers and like 12 NA teams. They would make part of it back considering they are playing in it and tickets/stream rev.
I unno, ESL gave good exposure to the 2nd tier teams, I feel like NASL should be able to do the same
But why would they want to? What incentive would they have to run a tourney full of no name NA teams that nobody would watch over inviting the best western teams?
Obviously it wouldn't be all tier 2 teams. There's still EG, Liquid and Dignitas, all of which are very popular teams in the west. Next thing is, like I said, you establish yourself as the best and biggest NA DotA thing going on. Look at freaks4you's joinDOTA, they jumped on it early when nobody probably thought it was worth it and they're definitely happy with that decision now, I would be very surprised if joinDOTA wasn't a successful project all things considered.
On April 25 2013 04:31 Sn0_Man wrote: My post got buried at the end of last page .
What happened to that Killing Spree KotH tournament?
Well, according to Liquipedia, the last match was played February 4, 2013.
I remember they advertised their Dota 2 tickets with the premise that it's a good deal, because the ticket will give you access to basically all the matches all year. I don't know how I would feel now, if I were a ticket buyer. =/
If I recall, that particular tournament was NA only. Although I suppose its nature kinda precluded much contribution to expanding the range of Tier-2 NA teams.
I mean... it was a tournament for the 4 best teams that got invited (no qualifiers) and they offered them to play each other, and when one of them wins 3 matches in a row, they win $100 (and another $100 for each consecutive win), that's not very appealing, if you think that these teams already compete in all the big leagues.
Also, the format is retarded.... it's either going to end up with one team winning everything, which will result in the remaining 3 teams not wanting to play obviously. Or the 4 teams being somewhat close, but then none of them will want to play, because it's unlikely they will get to a 3 game streak, and it's just not worth the effort. I think if you make a KOTH style tourna,net, you want a very big pool of participants, not just four of them...
On April 25 2013 02:25 Shaella wrote: You can't split the scenes, you can't establish a random server in the middle of the ocean,
Why not? Other games have regionally isolated competition (except in the case of major LANs), and NA/EU competition is already split from Chinese/SEA competitions.
You could argue that earlier in DotA 2's life, the scene was not large or stable enough for you to have region-only tournaments with good enough competition, but I don't see that as the case anymore. NA-only and EU-only tournaments would have enough participants to be stable.
NA-only tournaments would get stale fast unless some as-yet unformed teams became decent in a hurry. NA currently seriously lacks "tier 2" teams (assuming you assign Dig/TL/EG "tier 1" status for NA). Fnatic.NA is essentially the only candidate
They lack tier 2 teams because they don't have tournaments. If someone made a 5-10k NA only league (however much is necessary for EG/TL/Dig to play) you'd by the second season (if you're lucky by the first) have enough teams to make the NA scene interesting. But no organizer wants to do that because they could just get the EU teams to play with that prize pool as well.
Exactly.
The reason no second-tier NA teams pop up is because there's no real incentive or progression. Either you're instantly good enough to compete in cross-Atlantic tournaments, or you're nobody. There's an enormous barrier of entry there.
I agree, the barrier to entry is massive, and the hours are completely brutal for NA dota teams
But if the EU scene just cut off the NA scene, NA wouldn't suddenly sprout up and grow, it'd most likely die off very quickly.
Its not that I don't think the NA scene can't grow, but unless NASL or MLG pick DotA2 up, i don't see where the growth will come from.
NA's eSports infrastructure has ever been the worst in the developed world when it comes to developing our own scene and players. Short of a LCS run by Valve, I don't see the NA scene ever developing that infrastructure.
On April 25 2013 02:25 Shaella wrote: You can't split the scenes, you can't establish a random server in the middle of the ocean,
Why not? Other games have regionally isolated competition (except in the case of major LANs), and NA/EU competition is already split from Chinese/SEA competitions.
You could argue that earlier in DotA 2's life, the scene was not large or stable enough for you to have region-only tournaments with good enough competition, but I don't see that as the case anymore. NA-only and EU-only tournaments would have enough participants to be stable.
NA-only tournaments would get stale fast unless some as-yet unformed teams became decent in a hurry. NA currently seriously lacks "tier 2" teams (assuming you assign Dig/TL/EG "tier 1" status for NA). Fnatic.NA is essentially the only candidate
They lack tier 2 teams because they don't have tournaments. If someone made a 5-10k NA only league (however much is necessary for EG/TL/Dig to play) you'd by the second season (if you're lucky by the first) have enough teams to make the NA scene interesting. But no organizer wants to do that because they could just get the EU teams to play with that prize pool as well.
Exactly.
The reason no second-tier NA teams pop up is because there's no real incentive or progression. Either you're instantly good enough to compete in cross-Atlantic tournaments, or you're nobody. There's an enormous barrier of entry there.
I agree, the barrier to entry is massive, and the hours are completely brutal for NA dota teams
But if the EU scene just cut off the NA scene, NA wouldn't suddenly sprout up and grow, it'd most likely die off very quickly.
Its not that I don't think the NA scene can't grow, but unless NASL or MLG pick DotA2 up, i don't see where the growth will come from.
NA's eSports infrastructure has ever been the worst in the developed world when it comes to developing our own scene and players. Short of a LCS run by Valve, I don't see the NA scene ever developing that infrastructure.
The problem is that high cost of living + lacking of social safety net = the risk of going progaming is much higher compared to Asian or EU. Until people can make a secure living without basically mooching off parents, it will be behind.
On April 25 2013 02:25 Shaella wrote: You can't split the scenes, you can't establish a random server in the middle of the ocean,
Why not? Other games have regionally isolated competition (except in the case of major LANs), and NA/EU competition is already split from Chinese/SEA competitions.
You could argue that earlier in DotA 2's life, the scene was not large or stable enough for you to have region-only tournaments with good enough competition, but I don't see that as the case anymore. NA-only and EU-only tournaments would have enough participants to be stable.
NA-only tournaments would get stale fast unless some as-yet unformed teams became decent in a hurry. NA currently seriously lacks "tier 2" teams (assuming you assign Dig/TL/EG "tier 1" status for NA). Fnatic.NA is essentially the only candidate
They lack tier 2 teams because they don't have tournaments. If someone made a 5-10k NA only league (however much is necessary for EG/TL/Dig to play) you'd by the second season (if you're lucky by the first) have enough teams to make the NA scene interesting. But no organizer wants to do that because they could just get the EU teams to play with that prize pool as well.
Exactly.
The reason no second-tier NA teams pop up is because there's no real incentive or progression. Either you're instantly good enough to compete in cross-Atlantic tournaments, or you're nobody. There's an enormous barrier of entry there.
I agree, the barrier to entry is massive, and the hours are completely brutal for NA dota teams
But if the EU scene just cut off the NA scene, NA wouldn't suddenly sprout up and grow, it'd most likely die off very quickly.
Its not that I don't think the NA scene can't grow, but unless NASL or MLG pick DotA2 up, i don't see where the growth will come from.
NA's eSports infrastructure has ever been the worst in the developed world when it comes to developing our own scene and players. Short of a LCS run by Valve, I don't see the NA scene ever developing that infrastructure.
The problem is that high cost of living + lacking of social safety net = the risk of going progaming is much higher compared to Asian or EU. Until people can make a secure living without basically mooching off parents, it will be behind.
Lol, high cost of living in NA compared to western Europe? You been to Sweden? Just making up excuses. EU's greatest strength isn't in Na'Vi/Fnatic/Whatever. It's that the tournaments existed for more teams to come up. And did those teams have a secure living? absolutely not, they just had time zones that worked for them to play in and tournaments to motivate them.
NA scene just needs tournaments. That's all. It's not magic, it needs someone to take a risk. It was a risk to do tournaments in EU for Dota in the start as well. And if someone did an NA tournament right now, would it be bigger than TD3? No, but it would be bigger than TD1.
On April 25 2013 02:25 Shaella wrote: You can't split the scenes, you can't establish a random server in the middle of the ocean,
Why not? Other games have regionally isolated competition (except in the case of major LANs), and NA/EU competition is already split from Chinese/SEA competitions.
You could argue that earlier in DotA 2's life, the scene was not large or stable enough for you to have region-only tournaments with good enough competition, but I don't see that as the case anymore. NA-only and EU-only tournaments would have enough participants to be stable.
NA-only tournaments would get stale fast unless some as-yet unformed teams became decent in a hurry. NA currently seriously lacks "tier 2" teams (assuming you assign Dig/TL/EG "tier 1" status for NA). Fnatic.NA is essentially the only candidate
They lack tier 2 teams because they don't have tournaments. If someone made a 5-10k NA only league (however much is necessary for EG/TL/Dig to play) you'd by the second season (if you're lucky by the first) have enough teams to make the NA scene interesting. But no organizer wants to do that because they could just get the EU teams to play with that prize pool as well.
Exactly.
The reason no second-tier NA teams pop up is because there's no real incentive or progression. Either you're instantly good enough to compete in cross-Atlantic tournaments, or you're nobody. There's an enormous barrier of entry there.
I agree, the barrier to entry is massive, and the hours are completely brutal for NA dota teams
But if the EU scene just cut off the NA scene, NA wouldn't suddenly sprout up and grow, it'd most likely die off very quickly.
Its not that I don't think the NA scene can't grow, but unless NASL or MLG pick DotA2 up, i don't see where the growth will come from.
NA's eSports infrastructure has ever been the worst in the developed world when it comes to developing our own scene and players. Short of a LCS run by Valve, I don't see the NA scene ever developing that infrastructure.
The problem is that high cost of living + lacking of social safety net = the risk of going progaming is much higher compared to Asian or EU. Until people can make a secure living without basically mooching off parents, it will be behind.
Lol, high cost of living in NA compared to western Europe? You been to Sweden? Just making up excuses. EU's greatest strength isn't in Na'Vi/Fnatic/Whatever. It's that the tournaments existed for more teams to come up. And did those teams have a secure living? absolutely not, they just had time zones that worked for them to play in and tournaments to motivate them.
NA scene just needs tournaments. That's all. It's not magic, it needs someone to take a risk. It was a risk to do tournaments in EU for Dota in the start as well. And if someone did an NA tournament right now, would it be bigger than TD3? No, but it would be bigger than TD1.
It also makes a difference that NA is about 3x as large as the entirety of Europe. That adds a lot of overhead to teams and tournaments.
On April 25 2013 02:25 Shaella wrote: You can't split the scenes, you can't establish a random server in the middle of the ocean,
Why not? Other games have regionally isolated competition (except in the case of major LANs), and NA/EU competition is already split from Chinese/SEA competitions.
You could argue that earlier in DotA 2's life, the scene was not large or stable enough for you to have region-only tournaments with good enough competition, but I don't see that as the case anymore. NA-only and EU-only tournaments would have enough participants to be stable.
NA-only tournaments would get stale fast unless some as-yet unformed teams became decent in a hurry. NA currently seriously lacks "tier 2" teams (assuming you assign Dig/TL/EG "tier 1" status for NA). Fnatic.NA is essentially the only candidate
They lack tier 2 teams because they don't have tournaments. If someone made a 5-10k NA only league (however much is necessary for EG/TL/Dig to play) you'd by the second season (if you're lucky by the first) have enough teams to make the NA scene interesting. But no organizer wants to do that because they could just get the EU teams to play with that prize pool as well.
Exactly.
The reason no second-tier NA teams pop up is because there's no real incentive or progression. Either you're instantly good enough to compete in cross-Atlantic tournaments, or you're nobody. There's an enormous barrier of entry there.
I agree, the barrier to entry is massive, and the hours are completely brutal for NA dota teams
But if the EU scene just cut off the NA scene, NA wouldn't suddenly sprout up and grow, it'd most likely die off very quickly.
Its not that I don't think the NA scene can't grow, but unless NASL or MLG pick DotA2 up, i don't see where the growth will come from.
NA's eSports infrastructure has ever been the worst in the developed world when it comes to developing our own scene and players. Short of a LCS run by Valve, I don't see the NA scene ever developing that infrastructure.
The problem is that high cost of living + lacking of social safety net = the risk of going progaming is much higher compared to Asian or EU. Until people can make a secure living without basically mooching off parents, it will be behind.
Lol, high cost of living in NA compared to western Europe? You been to Sweden? Just making up excuses. EU's greatest strength isn't in Na'Vi/Fnatic/Whatever. It's that the tournaments existed for more teams to come up. And did those teams have a secure living? absolutely not, they just had time zones that worked for them to play in and tournaments to motivate them.
NA scene just needs tournaments. That's all. It's not magic, it needs someone to take a risk. It was a risk to do tournaments in EU for Dota in the start as well. And if someone did an NA tournament right now, would it be bigger than TD3? No, but it would be bigger than TD1.
It also makes a difference that NA is about 3x as large as the entirety of Europe. That adds a lot of overhead to teams and tournaments.
Flights from London to Kiev cost more than flights from New York to Los Angeles.
What's this other overhead caused by distance? You're dealing in 2 countries rather than 15, there can only be benefits. And either way I'm talking about online tournaments, as that scene needs to exist before LANs.
On April 25 2013 01:36 739 wrote: No idea why people keep complaining about server disadvantage. I like in Central Europe, I have total average net at 120mb/s and the ping to EU servers and USE/USW servers are : 27 / 44 / 67 ms.
How there is a huge difference between 27 and 67 ms ? Explain please.
And if it comes to pro teams, they should have a connection required to participate in tournaments to allow them to compete with NA / US teams. I'm living in a pretty poor country and I believe that net in Scandinavia / US or Germany is at least 2x faster than mine. So no, ping is not a huge factor in competetive gaming.
I have ~110 MS on USE and over 200 on USW and I live in the Netherlands
how the fuck do you get 44/67
explain please.
Regardless of ping it is hard to see an incentive for outside organisations to take an interest in the NA teams while they can simply run EU tournaments(with both NA and EU teams) and have the viewership of both(a lot of NA watches EU dota from what I recall).
Regardless of ping it is hard to see an incentive for outside organisations to take an interest in the NA teams while they can simply run EU tournaments(with both NA and EU teams) and have the viewership of both(a lot of NA watches EU dota from what I recall).
Which is why it kind of needs to be up to the teams to get something started that can grow. Not ideal, but if you're a third party unless you're incredibly nationalistic then it's simply not a good business decision to be the first.
EPT
