On April 25 2013 01:36 739 wrote: No idea why people keep complaining about server disadvantage. I like in Central Europe, I have total average net at 120mb/s and the ping to EU servers and USE/USW servers are : 27 / 44 / 67 ms.
How there is a huge difference between 27 and 67 ms ? Explain please.
And if it comes to pro teams, they should have a connection required to participate in tournaments to allow them to compete with NA / US teams. I'm living in a pretty poor country and I believe that net in Scandinavia / US or Germany is at least 2x faster than mine. So no, ping is not a huge factor in competetive gaming.
got 60 to euw and 140 to use from spain 10mb internet, depending on ISP?
also CIS usually has 200 on use? not sure, heard it somewhere
If everybody had the pings you posted, nobody would ever complain. But it's not like that. EU players usually ping 150-200 to USE, CIS players 200-250. USE players to EU have around 180-230, and USW have 230-270 to EU server. That's a huge difference, and it shows statistically too, that servers have a huge impact on the outcome of the match, look here: http://redd.it/1ar5ny
On April 25 2013 02:04 cecek wrote: If everybody had the pings you posted, nobody would ever complain. But it's not like that. EU players usually ping 150-200 to USE, CIS players 200-250. USE players to EU have around 180-230, and USW have 230-270 to EU server. That's a huge difference, and it shows statistically too, that servers have a huge impact on the outcome of the match, look here: http://redd.it/1ar5ny
overall WR is still close to 50/50... 18/20 and 20/17, which is 38/37, nearly 50/50
He can manipulate the numbers to make it look like its a hugely disadvantaged and biased based on ping, but you can see that overall it balanced out to being.. Pretty fair. Ping has some relation sure, but Bo3 are not won or lost on ping.
On April 25 2013 02:04 cecek wrote: If everybody had the pings you posted, nobody would ever complain. But it's not like that. EU players usually ping 150-200 to USE, CIS players 200-250. USE players to EU have around 180-230, and USW have 230-270 to EU server. That's a huge difference, and it shows statistically too, that servers have a huge impact on the outcome of the match, look here: http://redd.it/1ar5ny
overall WR is still close to 50/50... 18/20 and 20/17, which is 38/37, nearly 50/50
He can manipulate the numbers to make it look like its a hugely disadvantaged and biased based on ping, but you can see that overall it balanced out to being.. Pretty fair. Ping has some relation sure, but Bo3 are not won or lost on ping.
Err...
Being 50/50 doesn't imply fairness unless all your matches are against equal opponents. If you win 100% of the matches on home servers and lose 100% of matches on away servers. That's 50/50. It also means that third match coin-flips for servers is basically randomly deciding who wins. This is an extreme example obviously.
I've brought up the same solution that was mentioned in that post and I'd like to see it at least tried.
On April 25 2013 02:04 cecek wrote: If everybody had the pings you posted, nobody would ever complain. But it's not like that. EU players usually ping 150-200 to USE, CIS players 200-250. USE players to EU have around 180-230, and USW have 230-270 to EU server. That's a huge difference, and it shows statistically too, that servers have a huge impact on the outcome of the match, look here: http://redd.it/1ar5ny
overall WR is still close to 50/50... 18/20 and 20/17, which is 38/37, nearly 50/50
He can manipulate the numbers to make it look like its a hugely disadvantaged and biased based on ping, but you can see that overall it balanced out to being.. Pretty fair. Ping has some relation sure, but Bo3 are not won or lost on ping.
Wat?
Did you read anything?
The whole point is, the teams are 50/50 so we know they are close to their opponents in skill. However the 50% they win are on home turf and the 50% they lose are on "away" turf. I'd call that a problem.
Bo3s are DEFINITELY affected by server advantage. The fact that it is a coinflip for game 3 in some tournaments for fairness doesn't make it any less of a gamebreaker.
On April 25 2013 02:04 cecek wrote: If everybody had the pings you posted, nobody would ever complain. But it's not like that. EU players usually ping 150-200 to USE, CIS players 200-250. USE players to EU have around 180-230, and USW have 230-270 to EU server. That's a huge difference, and it shows statistically too, that servers have a huge impact on the outcome of the match, look here: http://redd.it/1ar5ny
overall WR is still close to 50/50... 18/20 and 20/17, which is 38/37, nearly 50/50
He can manipulate the numbers to make it look like its a hugely disadvantaged and biased based on ping, but you can see that overall it balanced out to being.. Pretty fair. Ping has some relation sure, but Bo3 are not won or lost on ping.
Wat?
Did you read anything?
The whole point is, the teams are 50/50 so we know they are close to their opponents in skill. However the 50% they win are on home turf and the 50% they lose are on "away" turf. I'd call that a problem.
Bo3s are DEFINITELY affected by server advantage. The fact that it is a coinflip for game 3 in some tournaments for fairness doesn't make it any less of a gamebreaker.
all i'm saying is
I'm watching matches, I don't see things that lead me to believe ping is having a serious impact on the game, there'll just be bad decisions made.
Maybe the ping frustration is related to that, but even if we do submit that there is a ping problem, what kind of actual solution is there?
You can't split the scenes, you can't establish a random server in the middle of the ocean,
Todays Dig vs Na'vi Bo3 wasn't won on ping advantage for Na'vi, it was made by bad decisions in the draft of game 3, and misplays in game 2, nothing else.
You can't split the scenes, you can't establish a random server in the middle of the ocean,
You can, virtually. The point is that it could at least be tried to equalize ping and see what happens. Although this is up to Valve.
Todays Dig vs Na'vi Bo3 wasn't won on ping advantage for Na'vi, it was made by bad decisions in the draft of game 3, and misplays in game 2, nothing else.
This is so easy to say but for a strategy to work it needs a lot of things to go right which requires good execution. We've seen the same drafts and people on here will one day say it's genius and the other that it's idiotic, because the second time it was executed poorly. That Mouz vs Alliance game when Alliance played a perfect game after the early Rosh, play that with 300 ping and have Roshan contested and then very small mistakes would make it impossible for alliance to win and people would blame it on the draft. All we can really do is look at statistics and they are heavily skewed, no matter what anecdotal evidence we may have.
On April 25 2013 01:36 739 wrote: No idea why people keep complaining about server disadvantage. I like in Central Europe, I have total average net at 120mb/s and the ping to EU servers and USE/USW servers are : 27 / 44 / 67 ms.
How there is a huge difference between 27 and 67 ms ? Explain please.
And if it comes to pro teams, they should have a connection required to participate in tournaments to allow them to compete with NA / US teams. I'm living in a pretty poor country and I believe that net in Scandinavia / US or Germany is at least 2x faster than mine. So no, ping is not a huge factor in competetive gaming.
really, you have 27 ping to USE servers? i find this hard to believe, since it would require a direct connection to the servers without any additional routing
i dont know if my math here is right, but if light traves at around 300 000 km/s and the distance between your location and the USE servers is roughly 7500 KMs, then idealy it would take 0.025 seconds for the signal to travel
edit- from the wiki regarding optical fibre
Optical cables transfer data at the speed of light in glass (slower than vacuum). This is typically around 180,000 to 200,000 km/s, resulting in 5.0 to 5.5 microseconds of latency per km. Thus the round-trip delay time for 1000 km is around 11 ms.[14]
On April 25 2013 02:25 Shaella wrote: You can't split the scenes, you can't establish a random server in the middle of the ocean,
Why not? Other games have regionally isolated competition (except in the case of major LANs), and NA/EU competition is already split from Chinese/SEA competitions.
You could argue that earlier in DotA 2's life, the scene was not large or stable enough for you to have region-only tournaments with good enough competition, but I don't see that as the case anymore. NA-only and EU-only tournaments would have enough participants to be stable.
On April 25 2013 02:25 Shaella wrote: You can't split the scenes, you can't establish a random server in the middle of the ocean,
Why not? Other games have regionally isolated competition (except in the case of major LANs), and NA/EU competition is already split from Chinese/SEA competitions.
You could argue that earlier in DotA 2's life, the scene was not large or stable enough for you to have region-only tournaments with good enough competition, but I don't see that as the case anymore. NA-only and EU-only tournaments would have enough participants to be stable.
NA-only tournaments would get stale fast unless some as-yet unformed teams became decent in a hurry. NA currently seriously lacks "tier 2" teams (assuming you assign Dig/TL/EG "tier 1" status for NA). Fnatic.NA is essentially the only candidate
On April 25 2013 02:25 Shaella wrote: You can't split the scenes, you can't establish a random server in the middle of the ocean,
Why not? Other games have regionally isolated competition (except in the case of major LANs), and NA/EU competition is already split from Chinese/SEA competitions.
You could argue that earlier in DotA 2's life, the scene was not large or stable enough for you to have region-only tournaments with good enough competition, but I don't see that as the case anymore. NA-only and EU-only tournaments would have enough participants to be stable.
NA-only tournaments would get stale fast unless some as-yet unformed teams became decent in a hurry. NA currently seriously lacks "tier 2" teams (assuming you assign Dig/TL/EG "tier 1" status for NA). Fnatic.NA is essentially the only candidate
They lack tier 2 teams because they don't have tournaments. If someone made a 5-10k NA only league (however much is necessary for EG/TL/Dig to play) you'd by the second season (if you're lucky by the first) have enough teams to make the NA scene interesting. But no organizer wants to do that because they could just get the EU teams to play with that prize pool as well.
On April 25 2013 02:25 Shaella wrote: You can't split the scenes, you can't establish a random server in the middle of the ocean,
Why not? Other games have regionally isolated competition (except in the case of major LANs), and NA/EU competition is already split from Chinese/SEA competitions.
You could argue that earlier in DotA 2's life, the scene was not large or stable enough for you to have region-only tournaments with good enough competition, but I don't see that as the case anymore. NA-only and EU-only tournaments would have enough participants to be stable.
SEA and china play together a fair amount.
EU has enough tier 2 teams to sustain itself, NA does not. Maybe if NASL actually picks up DotA2, things could change enough for a scene split in like, a year, but right now? No.
On April 25 2013 02:04 cecek wrote: If everybody had the pings you posted, nobody would ever complain. But it's not like that. EU players usually ping 150-200 to USE, CIS players 200-250. USE players to EU have around 180-230, and USW have 230-270 to EU server. That's a huge difference, and it shows statistically too, that servers have a huge impact on the outcome of the match, look here: http://redd.it/1ar5ny
overall WR is still close to 50/50... 18/20 and 20/17, which is 38/37, nearly 50/50
He can manipulate the numbers to make it look like its a hugely disadvantaged and biased based on ping, but you can see that overall it balanced out to being.. Pretty fair. Ping has some relation sure, but Bo3 are not won or lost on ping.
Wat?
Did you read anything?
The whole point is, the teams are 50/50 so we know they are close to their opponents in skill. However the 50% they win are on home turf and the 50% they lose are on "away" turf. I'd call that a problem.
Bo3s are DEFINITELY affected by server advantage. The fact that it is a coinflip for game 3 in some tournaments for fairness doesn't make it any less of a gamebreaker.
all i'm saying is
I'm watching matches, I don't see things that lead me to believe ping is having a serious impact on the game, there'll just be bad decisions made.
Maybe the ping frustration is related to that, but even if we do submit that there is a ping problem, what kind of actual solution is there?
You can't split the scenes, you can't establish a random server in the middle of the ocean,
Todays Dig vs Na'vi Bo3 wasn't won on ping advantage for Na'vi, it was made by bad decisions in the draft of game 3, and misplays in game 2, nothing else.
You see only the outcome and blame it on draft or poor game decisions, but believe me - most top tier players don't make bad decisions by their own will, generally its forced by something. And about the bad draft - for example, Navi never draft Rubick on USE, and Liquid never draft Storm on EU, even if draft is very favorable for it to be picked. And so on, i can give many examples of certain heroes or even strats not being used because of ping discrepancy.
On April 25 2013 02:25 Shaella wrote: You can't split the scenes, you can't establish a random server in the middle of the ocean,
Why not? Other games have regionally isolated competition (except in the case of major LANs), and NA/EU competition is already split from Chinese/SEA competitions.
You could argue that earlier in DotA 2's life, the scene was not large or stable enough for you to have region-only tournaments with good enough competition, but I don't see that as the case anymore. NA-only and EU-only tournaments would have enough participants to be stable.
NA-only tournaments would get stale fast unless some as-yet unformed teams became decent in a hurry. NA currently seriously lacks "tier 2" teams (assuming you assign Dig/TL/EG "tier 1" status for NA). Fnatic.NA is essentially the only candidate
They lack tier 2 teams because they don't have tournaments. If someone made a 5-10k NA only league (however much is necessary for EG/TL/Dig to play) you'd by the second season (if you're lucky by the first) have enough teams to make the NA scene interesting. But no organizer wants to do that because they could just get the EU teams to play with that prize pool as well.
Exactly.
The reason no second-tier NA teams pop up is because there's no real incentive or progression. Either you're instantly good enough to compete in cross-Atlantic tournaments, or you're nobody. There's an enormous barrier of entry there.
On April 25 2013 02:25 Shaella wrote: You can't split the scenes, you can't establish a random server in the middle of the ocean,
Why not? Other games have regionally isolated competition (except in the case of major LANs), and NA/EU competition is already split from Chinese/SEA competitions.
You could argue that earlier in DotA 2's life, the scene was not large or stable enough for you to have region-only tournaments with good enough competition, but I don't see that as the case anymore. NA-only and EU-only tournaments would have enough participants to be stable.
NA-only tournaments would get stale fast unless some as-yet unformed teams became decent in a hurry. NA currently seriously lacks "tier 2" teams (assuming you assign Dig/TL/EG "tier 1" status for NA). Fnatic.NA is essentially the only candidate
They lack tier 2 teams because they don't have tournaments. If someone made a 5-10k NA only league (however much is necessary for EG/TL/Dig to play) you'd by the second season (if you're lucky by the first) have enough teams to make the NA scene interesting. But no organizer wants to do that because they could just get the EU teams to play with that prize pool as well.
Exactly.
The reason no second-tier NA teams pop up is because there's no real incentive or progression. Either you're instantly good enough to compete in cross-Atlantic tournaments, or you're nobody. There's an enormous barrier of entry there.
I agree, the barrier to entry is massive, and the hours are completely brutal for NA dota teams
But if the EU scene just cut off the NA scene, NA wouldn't suddenly sprout up and grow, it'd most likely die off very quickly.
Its not that I don't think the NA scene can't grow, but unless NASL or MLG pick DotA2 up, i don't see where the growth will come from.
EPT
